Hi, have been wanting to buy a FX body since a couple of years now. At present am debating if i should buy the D600 (with the possibility of having dust/oil sensor problems) or wait for an update of the D600 (D610 or whatever name Nikon puts on it). Am currently using a D90 but have a collection of "full frame" lenses from my FM2n and F100 bodies. What do the experts here say? Buy D600 or wait? Thanks
The D610 is a rumor. Will it be release in 1-month or 1-year? Some people are still waiting for a D300 replacement. If you're worried about the dust issue, but want full frame, buy a used D700. It's also a great camera.
I've got a D600 and am very happy with the quality of photos.
"Red is gray and yellow white, but we decide which is right ....and which is an illusion"
Nikon usually makes a major announcement or 2 near the end of September. For this reason I would wait out the month - but beyond that if I wanted to upgrade I would just go for it as playing the 'waiting game' could be an endless loop.
Also, if they do announce a D610, it may result in a huge clearance sale on any remaining D600's (at which point depending on what the D610 specs are and what you need you may decide to STILL buy a D600) so waiting out the month could be worth it, but I agree that the D610 currently is only a rumor so waiting long could be a fools errand.
The D600 is a very good camera. The deals on refurbished models are very good - nearly 25% off retail price. The issue people complained about is the sensor lubricant issue. It has since been addressed in production and is fixed with service.
I'd go ahead and get a refurbished or sale price D600. I have one and it is a remarkable camera.
The dust and oil issues only affected the first one to two production runs and Nikon has subsequently fixed the issues with out acknowledging the issue. I purchased mine new in January and have not experienced the aforementioned issues. The D610 is a rumored camera only along with the D5300. Nikon tends to update their Entry level cameras every two years. I don't see Nikon announcing the D610 or what ever Nikon will call it until September of 2014. If, and that is a pretty big if, Nikon were to announce the D610, I don't fore see any major updates at all except the following, an increase is fps and the removal of the optical low pass filter (AA). I think that the early sales of the D600 have been hampered by the dust and oil issue but I don't think the overall sales are that bad as I've seen a lot of people speak highly of the D600. I say get the D600 and can tell you that you'll be very happy with the camera. Me, I upgraded from the D80. Charlie
Wait, I am on my 4th D600 it still has dust not as bad as my other 3i clean it every other week. I would wait a month I like my D90 and still use it from time to time. Dust has never been an issue with it.
Wait until the D610 is released and see how it performs. Good luck
I am interested in the D600 from my D7000. I know that the dust/oil issue is likely a small percentage, but there has been no confirmation that Nikon has dealt with the issue. I would buy the D600, but what if ... what if it has a sensor issue. I would kick myself. But, if they released the D610, I might just be first in line.
Sun 15-Sep-13 02:08 AM | edited Sun 15-Sep-13 06:28 AM by NRandall
If you can afford it get something else. I just had a brand new D600 arrive with major spots straight out of the box. I was unable get one clean picture with three different lenses so it went straight back to the dealer - who apologised. I sent the dealer sample images against solid backgrounds and he agreed, much to his disappointment that the camera was a reject. I had a D90 and regretted selling it first. So I am negotiating to get a D800 instead. Nikon quality control from the factory leaves much to be desired.
Lenses have nothing to do with dust. It's not unusual for there to be dust on a sensor. A light cleaning with a blower typically does the job. More than one cleaning is normal to remove all dust.
The FX sensor is 2.25 times the size of a DX sensor - so it will get more than twice as much dust. Sensor cleaning is normal for digital cameras. And all cameras have dust if you look closely. And high resolution cameras are more likely to show dust - especially viewed at 100%.
Now you may have a problem camera, but you may also have normal dust that simply needs a cleaning. The main symptom of the D600 dust problem has been excessive dust in one of the corners that quickly reappears after cleaning. It's not a problem with every camera, but every camera does have dust.
The dealer is not going to argue about dust or returns. The dealer wants to maintain a good relationship with customers.
Nikon is not going to argue about dust. But most camera owners would have a difficult time distinguishing between normal dust and a manufacturing defect. If there was a manufacturing defect on a subset of cameras but not all cameras, most people with dust would still blame Nikon rather than accept normal cleaning requirements.
>Lenses have nothing to do with dust. It's not unusual for >there to be dust on a sensor. . The main symptom of >the D600 dust problem has been excessive dust in one of the >corners that quickly reappears after cleaning. >
In this case the spots were in the upper left hand corner of the image as in the typically described problem.
They were also large enough to detract from the overall image, large enough to suggest lubricant rather than dust, and this was straight out of the box. I've been using DSLRs since the release of the D80, this is my third DSLR body in seven years, and this is by far the worst I've seen. I've been using Nikon since the mid-80's, and have always had good gear until now. I think it is very reasonable to expect that a camera provides clear images out of the box.
Lastly, the reason for checking with more than one lens was to rule out a lens as a culprit - nothing more.
No-one is saying that you are wrong, but posting an example image to show the excessive spots would support your conclusions, and help us to suggest whether what you're seeing is a problem, or just "normal" dust.
I'm sure you don't fall into this category, but we have had occasional posts from newly-registered members registering complaints when in fact they have never even owned the item being complained about...!
Sun 15-Sep-13 12:18 PM | edited Sun 15-Sep-13 12:18 PM by NRandall
>Thank you for the additional information. > >No-one is saying that you are wrong, but posting an example >image to show the excessive spots would support your >conclusions, a..... from newly-registered members registering >complaints when in fact they have never even owned the item >being complained about...!
Now that would be silly! I am actually a lapsed former member who just decided for a long time not to pay to use online forums. I'm not suggesting of course that you are the sort of person who is suspicious of every new person who comes along..., or who will not take people at their word . . .. :>)
Meanwhile I have paid my 25 bucks just for the privilege of the demonstration.
The first was an outdoor test shot as a storm approached. Noticing the spots on and near the left horizon, I did a test with my 85mm AF 1.4 into a solid coloured monitor screen.
Maybe our criteria are different, but the amount of dust in those images does not look unusual to me. My wife's D600 certainly had more and larger spots that that, but we did not view it as a QC problem - we just had it cleaned.
I agree, and that is all it has been in my particular D600.
Nikon obviously had an issue with some D600s, but mine has been very well behaved and easy to clean, (bought in December).
However, what I read here in the forum is many people, (not all), making no attempt to clean their sensor, they just see some spots and send it in, I guess hoping Nikon will swap the shutter out. I posted my D800 example not as a criticism of that camera, just as a comparison to my D600. BTW, this is obviously a crop, the dust is in the same general area as where I see it in the D600.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan
Sun 15-Sep-13 06:09 AM | edited Sun 15-Sep-13 06:10 AM by briantilley
>Or Nikon should make an official statement that the >dust/oil sensor problem has been recognized and >positively solved in production.
One problem with that is that purchasers might start to return cameras which are actually quite OK. Most DSLR's will have SOME dust on their sensor from day one, and creating an expectation to the contrary could do more harm than good.
I'm not saying that Nikon could have handled the situation better - they certainly could - but the answer may not be as simple as we would hope or expect.
My recommendation is to WAIT. I think it's pretty likely that the D610 announcement will occur any day now - or at least by the end of September. With all the risk that exists regarding the D600, why take a chance before you have all of your choices on the table?
Wait for the D610 to be announce, complete with its price (which I am guessing will be around $2,000). Then, see what the fire sale prices are for the D600 a month or so after the D610 announcement. Then, compare the risk of the dust/D600 vs the amount of money you will save, and make a cost-value judgment based on that information.
I'd compare new to new. I personally wouldn't buy a refurb D600, assuming that there is a better chance than not that it's a refurb due to the dust issue. So,...it probably had the dust issue and was "fixed" or cleaned. A number of Nikonians have had their D600's cleaned, and the problem reoccurred.
Of course, this all assumes that the D610 is the same camera as the D600, without the "dust issue". If Nikon upgrades the AF to match the D7100 system, then all bets are off, because it would be a significantly improved camera, and probably worth the extra money over a D600.
I don't think you are looking at a manufacturing or design difference between the D600 and D610 to resolve a dust issue. To the extent there is a dust issue, it has already been resolved in manufacturing as much as it will ever be. The idea of a D610 is largely marketing to allow Nikon to move forward. They may say something about a new mechanism to support communication, but from a technical standpoint I would not expect anything new.
I don't think the AF system of the D7100 is better than the D600. In fact, there is a big difference beyond f/5.6 with only one sensor performing reliably on the D7100. It would be nice to have 51 AF sensors on the D610, but there are 9 cross sensors beyond f/5.6 on the D600 and its the cross sensors that provide the greatest degree of accuracy.
My guess is you will see little in the way of enhanced features on the D610, and the D600 is a good alternative with potential savings of $500 or more. I would have no problem with a refurbished D600 as the cost savings is significant.
If you are uncomfortable with dust and normal cleaning, stay away from FX. The FX sensor is 2.25 times the size of the DX sensor - which means more than twice as much dust. Higher resolution means you can see the dust. That's true on the D800, D4, and D600/D610 as it is simply the nature of a larger sensor. Any manufacturing issue is on top of the larger sensor.
While I recognize the significance of having better focus ability with smaller apertures for some users, I think when many (and I'll go out on a limb and say "most") of us think of AF performance, we think of speed of AF lock-on, and accuracy of tracking. In that respect, the 51 point CAM3500 module is superior to the 39 point system. That has been vetted out in the sports forum, and in the D7000/D7100 forum. If not, then why would Nikon have not simply put the AF system from the D600 into the D7100?
Personally, my take on it is that the D600, because it has an FX sensor (and therefor takes in more light), can take advantage of certain things in the AF system that a DX sensor can't. I think the D600 has a "tweaked" version of the same AF system that is in the D7000, but it gets extra performance in terms of f8 focus ability, due to the FX sensor. The 39 point AF system is the D7000's weak link as an indoor action camera.
From everything I have read, the D600 AF system is not the equal of the 51 point CAM3500 system.
I didn't recommend that the OP not buy a D600. I just suggested waiting a little longer until we know what a D610 is and what the price/performance differential is. Even if there is no more risk than with any camera, the D600 has a stigma. And, that stigma, combined with the perception of the market, may reduce the enjoyment of owning the camera, and will most likely affect resale value as well. A lot of people out there "think" they have a dust problem, and that takes the fun out of it, even if there is no problem at all.
>Even if there is no more risk than with any camera, the D600 has >a stigma. And, that stigma, combined with the perception of the >market, may reduce the enjoyment of owning the camera, and will >most likely affect resale value as well. A lot of people out there >"think" they have a dust problem, and that takes the >fun out of it, even if there is no problem at all.
You might want to consider the premise that posts like these, from people who don't own a D600 and won't be buying one, could well be a significant contributor to the feeling of negativity that seems to surround the camera in online forums
I really do not have dealers that will take goods back if there is a problem. I was supposed to be number 3 on the list for the D800 then all of the delays and adverse "Net Traffic" made me decide to wait. It took so long for the first D800's to arrive in India that the focus problem only affected a few and now they are rarely available from Authorized Dealers.
Nikon India have started playing really tough on honouring the warranty if not purchased from an Authorised Dealer/partner . I am on very good terms with the Nikon support people but who needs the hassle .
As of yesterday the D600 is in the same boat. None available, no idea when they will be, and indications that they may not be coming. One of my dealers did say that they expected the D610 to be available at the end of October but no idea on pricing ( another rumour ) .
I have had zero problems with the D7100 so I am feeling better about the manufacturing and QC . I may even be an early adopter of the D610 since I really do not need the D800. Cheers, Tom
The D7100 has a newer AF system based on the CAM 3500 system of the D800 and D4. One difference compared to the D600 is the 12 extra AF sensors in the corners - sensors that in the best of cases are not as reliable as the cross sensors you would normally use for moving subjects. Another difference is that at f/5.6 and lower, the D7100 has 15 cross sensors compared to 9 for the D600. But when you have a lens or lens teleconverter combination beyond f/5.6 (wide open) the D7100 just has one reliable AF sensor compared to 9 for the D600 at f/6.3. So for sports, where you tend to shoot faster lenses, the D7100 system has the edge, but for distant wildlife with long zooms and teleconverters, the D600 AF system has the advantage.
There are a lot of variables involved in testing AF. The test in the link above involved more than 500 test runs in a controlled environment for just three camera bodies. The situation and intended use make a difference.
The D610 rumors do not have a change in the AF system. It will still have the CAM 4800 system of the D600 which is quite good.
Sun 29-Sep-13 09:39 PM | edited Mon 30-Sep-13 01:27 PM by NRandall
>My recommendation is to WAIT. I think it's pretty likely >that the D610 announcement will occur any day now - or at >least by the end of September. With all the risk that exists >regarding the D600, why take a chance before you have all of >your choices on the table? > >Wait for the D610 to be announce, complete with its price >(which I am guessing will be around $2,000). Then, see what >the fire sale prices are for the D600 a month or so after the >D610 announcement. Then, compare the risk of the dust/D600 vs >the amount of money you will save, and make a cost-value >judgment based on that information.
As of now we may have to just wait in any case. My replacement D600 has gone into repeating 'we are expecting your camera next week' mode. When I was able to speak to a manager the answer was even more frustrating. He states that Nikon will announce the D610 in the next week or two, 'to replace the D600 due to chronic defect issues'. Then it was explained that no more D600s will be made, and will not be available, but there is some stock still around. The D610s will not be available for at least two months. Meanwhile the distributor just cannot seem to find a D600 for me....so I have had a quiet re-read of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' to help restore my sense of humour....
Still without a camera, but
. . . . the dealer has now offered me a free loan of a D7000 until the D600 or D610 arrives.
I use a camera every week for work so I can get by for a while. This is still a little better than the D90 I sold to begin financing the new system.
Nikonians Team Member
The eye sees what it wants to see and the camera sees the rest.
I bought a D600 refurb with 24-85mm VR lens and 6-month warranty, free shipping, for $1599. Let's say the lens is worth $300. So I got a $1300 D600 refurb body with a 6-month warranty. Add a Mack or other extended warranty. I am betting the D610 is going to be above $2000 body alone for the first six months or so. Only time will tell if my bet is correct. I have a D800 to cover if the D600 has to go in for warranty repair. I needed a second body anyway. I think this is a winner deal.
Im in the same spot as you and Ill wait for the D610. If it only become with the new shutter I rather get the DX D7100 for the extra features it provide. If they equal the qualities of the D7100 in the D610 + the new shutter mechanism, Im getting it!