review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cameras
Luminious Landscape latest review of Cannon 1ds digital camera states that the 11mp full resolution raw image quality is far far superior to finest grain 35mm film quality the image quality is almost as good as 645 midium format film quality. The review also suggest that in very near future all the 35mm & medium format film photographers will be lured away to full frame digital sensor cameras.
Please clarify by actual comparisons between 35mm film and full fram digital sensor photographs. Will every serious ameture/professional photographer sell his 35mm film camera in favoure of 35mm full fram digital camera?
#1. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0jrp Charter MemberFri 07-Feb-03 06:22 AM
A CoolScan 4000 ED will yield 3,946 x 5,782 pixels from a 35mm negative or unmounted slide, the equivalent image of a digital camera rating of 22.8Mpixels. (Today, that's the rating for medium format digital backs).
Granted those bitmaps are a second generation image (negative/slide then scan) but I think the dead of 35mm film has and will continue to be greatly exaggerated.
Quality in digital cameras is already there and getting better, however, the advantages of digital photography today are others, instant chance to retry a never-attempted-before shot, for example, instead of bracketing and waiting to see the results.
We must forgive the over-enthusiasm of the reviewer, I am certain that if we were to review a 12 Mpixel Nikon, comments like those could pop up in amazement, if not careful enough with the facts.
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#5. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 1BJNicholls Charter MemberSat 15-Feb-03 04:52 AM
The Canon delivers 4064 x 2704 pixels. Each of those pixels carries image detail and color information. The pixels in a 4000 ppi scan represent grain detial and it takes several pixels to start to form any image detail.
In my experience my Fuji S2 digital - which has less actual image resolution than the Canon 1Ds - delivers images that hold up well for detail in 12x18 prints compared to 4000 ppi scans from Velvia. The digital photos are much lower in noise and the color accuracy is superior. I'm afraid I have to support Michael's conclusions even if they tend to sound overly breathless.
When I have a high quality 12-14 megapixel full frame DSLR, the only film I'll be shooting is with my Xpan. And even it might be endangered.
Pixel for pixel, there is no comparison of a scan from film with a direct digital capture. Digital delivers higher quality. I've argued for 20+ megapixels equivalency myself, but I was wrong.
#13. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 1JBish130 Basic MemberSat 08-Mar-03 12:20 PM
Thanks JRP, while reading the initial post, I was thinking to myself, I'm pretty sure the digital back for the 'blad comes in at over 20mp. However, I couldn't find the information. Thanks to your post, I stopped looking!
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#15. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 1Sat 12-Apr-03 07:04 PM
The death of film is greatly overexagerated. One of the reasons for my posting "Film Detail," in Cafe, was to counter what I've felt were really horrendous scans of both film and digital in the film vs digital debate. The film scans were certainly not indicative of the quality I'm able to get from even adverage film. And this quality easily holds up in the 8.5x11 full frame photo inkjet prints I make.
For my own examples, I used decent, although outdated, fast film, certainly not representative of state of the art. The exampled images I used were also shot handheld without a tripod, much as anyone might shoot. Yet the amount of detail captured with my 4000 dpi was certainly overwhelming, and far in excess in what was being touted as state of the art in other examples.
Of course, by using a 10,000 dpi scanner, even more film detail is evident. I only hope that in the quest to sell digital cameras, the primary makers of film scanners (Nikon, Canon, Minolta) don't short change those of us who want to continue to use film, and even more importantly, digitally print it.
On the other hand, this so called debate strikes me as incredibly silly, something akin to two fifteen year old girls gossiping about the new boy in school.
#2. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
Every now and then somebody comes out and pronounces the death of this or that. Film is the death du jur.
Canon has just introduced a new low-end film SLR. Nikon is apparently in the throes of introducing a new mid-range film SLR. Neither of these companies would be spending their R&D dollars on film cameras if they didn't think there was a market into the forseeable future.
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#3. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
"... almost as good as 645 medium format film quality". There's a whole lot of meander room in that word 'almost'. I too read the review, and think I could get along very comfortably with 11mp for my photography style, assuming that I was willing to take out a 2nd mortgage to do so; which I'm not.
#4. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
If you could buy a Canon EOS-1Ds for $1,000, that would be the death of 35mm SLR's. If you could buy one for $2,000, that would be the death of a lot of 35mm SLR's. I would love to have one but there is no way I can justify a $9,000 camera no matter how wonderful it is. If I was a pro, I would sure try to justify buying one.
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#6. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
Also in the news, new Porsche 911GT3 indicates the end of the bicycle.
I'm still wary of the digital workflow and additional expenses beyond just a D100 or D2. Custom curves, monitor profiling, new hard drive CD burner, portable storage and/or notebook, "special" digital format lenses, etc. Shooting film has easily measured incremental costs and the advantage of portability. I didn't buy a nice small light SLR with the intention of wheeling a PC around with me. For a while it seems that the ideal solution would be to shoot both film and digital. Well, ideal for the photo industry anyway.
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#7. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
This is going off at a tangent from your question, but what about power and storage issues?
We'll need to see some sort of revolution in how digital cameras are powered (fuel cells, perhaps?) before they can replace film for a photographer who's going to be away from an electricity supply for any length of time.
The same for storage: camera resolutions seem to be increasing in step with media sizes so we're a long way from a card that can hold thousands of shots. OK, there are backup devices ('digital wallets' and so forth) but they need power too....
I should think there will be a market for film and cameras like the FM3a for some time to come.
#14. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 7Tomie Basic MemberSat 05-Apr-03 03:48 AM
lets put it another way
i see many people holding $5000-$9000 12MP DSLR, I hope i had the money to spend like these people as well. Maybe i should sell all my stuff like F5, F3, Fm2n, N90, n80, slide scanner, slide projector, and lot of manual lenses and accessaries just to get myself a 12MP DSLR.
Hmm..... maybe not..... bank roping is better idea
#8. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
The review also suggest that in very near future all the 35mm & medium format film photographers will be lured away to full frame digital sensor cameras.
WOW...pretty bold statement indeed. Yep, real soon every owner of a $450 film camera is going to spend $9,000 on a digital camera, then spend a fortune on a new computer, monitor, PS 7, and loads of extra things to take on a 4 week African safari that is about 6,480 miles from the nearest electrical outlet.
Sorry, but in the world of the working wildlife photographer (folks like Mattias Klum, Joel Sartore, John Shaw, etc) who regularly sells images to magazines, slide film is still the king. VERY few magazines will accept digital images.
Then learn a new way to manage files, and develop a new method of workflow...
Once again, I will state that I am not anti-digital. But , it will take a fast 11 mp camera to make me even start to think about switching. The EOS-1Ds is what, 2 fps at best??? Sorry, too slow right now.
Besides, if the EOS 1Ds feels anything in your hands like the EOS-1v, then I do not care what type of images it takes. IMHO, the ergonomics are dreadful...
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#9. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 8BJNicholls Charter MemberWed 26-Feb-03 03:06 AM
And Moose Peterson shoots all but completely digital now and many photographers are moving over. Don't talk $450 cameras on one side and then argue professional shooting on the other. For a successful pro, the cost of a 1Ds is easy to justify along with what it takes to handle image files professionally.
Slides aren't king any more. Publications digitize every slide image they use in print. You'll still see slides required for some submissions screening and competitions, but digital image files are immediately usable and much more marketable to ad agencies and stock photo agencies. When I'm creating a brochure and I'm looking for an image, I don't want to go through pages of slide dupes and nobody else in the production side design/advertising business does either.
In order to deal with agencies, any successful working nature photographer will already be familiar with digital workflow and high res scanning. The file management is already going on and it's a lot easier to deal with than pages of slides and managing the creation of dupes to send out for the few old-fashioned oufits that require them.
I've got a workable solution that I can use on a three week Grand Canyon trip using a DSLR. Film's probably a better choice for that Nepal mountain climb or Antarctic beach vacation you're planning. A laptop isn't necessary any more than a Jobo processor is to develop your slides at camp.
The article doesn't maintain that digital cameras have arrived to provide everyone with better than film performance at affordable prices. That's a couple of years off
#21. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 9Nikon_Freak Basic MemberFri 18-Apr-03 06:10 PM
Well, I know I am jumping in on this late, but let's get real. What is the ratio of Pro's : Amatures? Maybe you need Digital, and if you do, great go get a Digital and be done with it. I can't afford digital and don't want the loss of value even if I could. Let's see I buy a D1X today for $3899 from B&H today, and sell it on ebay for $1 tomorrow. I buy an F5 from them for $1930 today and at least I will get $1600 out of it tomorrow.
Let's deal with reality. Not everyone will be able to afford a DSLR at the current pricing. Not everyone can go out and buy a new PC or Mac and all the great accessories that will be needed. Not everyone can get a new color printer for photo quality. Not everyone can afford PS 7. Are you getting my point here.
There are some people out there that just want to take pictures of the family dog, and the kids playing with him, some pictures of the last vacation. Some people still like a little quality in the pictures they take, and have you seen the quality of the Free Digital camera that comes with your new Dell. (It's CRAP!!!, I gave it to my kid.)
The point is that as long as there is a market for film there will be film. So let the pro's go digital, and for those of you that seem to think your better cause you have, GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE. Just cause your a digital guy means you either have a need for it, you just wanted it, or you spent money you didn't need too.
I don't need digital. I like film. I love my F5. If I want to post my pictures on the internet I will either get a film scanner or have them scanned. Until all film manufactures stop making film and the world runs out of the stock pile I will shoot film.
#22. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 21R_M_B Registered since 18th Jan 2003Mon 21-Apr-03 04:20 PM
I heard on Saturday that Nikon is coming out with a F6 soon. Are you going to buy one? If you are going to get $1600 dor your F5, you had better sell it before the F6 is available.
People who just want to take pictures of their dog, their family and their vacations are perfect candidates for consumer digital cameras. Some pretty nice pictures are beginning to appear on this site that were taken with a Coolpix camera. I took over 600 pictures with my CP 5700 on my last vacation and I didn't have to pay anything for film or processing. I also e-mailed my favorite pictures to family and friends the same day I took them.
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#10. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
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#11. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
This always instigates an interesting discussion - digital V's film. Thinking on this - if you shoot Velvia using good quality primes and using a slide projector enlarge it on a wall - that is many MANY times enlarging the image and then enlarge a digital image for the same percentage - how would they compare then? Can you enlarge a digital image to say 4 feet by 5 feet? like you can a slide on a screen? The slide image loses some detail but you can stll make out what it is and appreciate the image.
Never tried myself...
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#12. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 11justinb Basic MemberSun 02-Mar-03 01:47 AM
Actually, yes, I have read of situations where people have taken digital files and interpolated them up to sizes well beyond 4'X5' for posters and signs for building exteriors. Is it the quality of something I want to frame and hang on my wall? Maybe not, but it can certainly be done, and if done well...you might be surprised by the results.
After I bought my Fuji S1, I only used my N80 for things that could not be accomplished with the S1 (flash comp, etc.). Since buying the S2, the N80 only gathers dust.
#25. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 12Wed 16-Jan-08 12:23 PM
I think you are absolutely right. The original question was whether digital is making film obsolete, or, something to that effect. Those who are not shooting digital right now can make a good case for not buying into the digital "mystique." Additional cost( since when has additional cost ever stopped a photographer from doing what he wants ? ),learning new workflow habits, etc. are good excuses for not taking the plunge and I cannot argue with those who cite them. But, from a * PRACTICAL* point of view I can assure you that once you begin shooting digital, the convenience of the process, the instaneous review,the lack of film and processing costs, the ability to shoot and print within a few minutes, the storage of the RAW "negatives", and on and on... will make your film camera gather dust. I still own and love my F100, but I do not shoot it much any more. I use it only for those situations that still require a slide. Actually, I shoot my old Mamiya medium format more than I do my F100. I use it for the times when I want a really big print with the best quality. I use my Coolscan IV to scan old slides and negs and occasionally a new slide for a reason.
I can tell you if you ask many D100, or D1x shooters if they still like film, they will *tell* you they do, but they are shooting digital almost 100% of the time.
Sorry, fellow film lovers, that is just the way it is.
By the way the attached " Jonquil" was shot,printed and resized for the web in 15 min. Not a great picture, but I just wanted to celebrate Spring.
Attachment#1 (jpg file)
#16. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 11
This week I attended a lecture by Steve McCurry, which was built around a carousel filled with his slides, in a large lecture hall at the University of Pennsylvania. I can assure you that the image size was a lot bigger than 4 feet by 5 feet. This was in conjuntion with 16x24 full frame gallery prints on display in a University Gallery.
But really, who cares? This silly debate seems to be driven by those who have decided to shoot digital. It's like Apple users always attacking the PC users, or the "other" camera manufacture's users always attacking Leica users. Obviouly, if digital was really that good, digital users wouldn't really care about film instead of being so obsessed with it.
#18. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 16Sun 13-Apr-03 10:39 PM
I hope your response was not to my post above. My enthusiasm for digital does not mean that I do not shoot film anymore, quite the contrary. For some things I don't think film can be beat and I use it. For the record, I can't wait to get my hands on some of the new Velvia 100.
But, because I do not shoot film 100%, please don't think I"attack" those who do. That is just not the case.
#19. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 18Mon 14-Apr-03 07:12 PM
I'm merely pointing out an observation. I've yet to see a film user start a "Film vs Digital" thread. Really, who cares? If you want to shot digital fine. But the same thing has already been said about Medium Format (6x6) vs 35mm, and I haven't seen that many 35mm users dumping their cameras. Digital users are the new "True Believers." If digital were that great, and their wasn't any misgiving, then it seems to me that digital shooters wouldn't be so obsessive. After reading your posts, do I think you're obsessive? Yea!
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#24. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 18highlander Basic MemberWed 23-Apr-03 11:32 PM
New Velvia 100? Have I been gone that long that I have missed some anouncement. I have tried to look that up but I can not find it anywhere. If someone can point me in the right direction that would be wonderful.
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#17. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
It's been 2 months after that review and there are still film cameras on sale (Canons too...).
Don't forget that many magazine reviews are sponsored by the manufacturer whose items are reviewed.
And even when not, the magazine stands to loose advertising from that manufacturer (and his dealerships) if they print anything but a very rosy review (they'd sooner NOT print a review than print a negative statement).
When 35mm was instroduced that was supposed to be the end of MF.
When APS was introduced that was supposed to be the end of 35mm.
When diskfilm was introduced that was supposed to be the end of 35mm.
When audiotape was introduced that was supposed to be the end of records.
When colour film was introduced that was supposed to be the end of B&W film.
When TV was introduced that was supposed to be the end of cinemas, newspapers and radio.
When the internet was introduced it was supposed to be the end of the printed press.
B&W film is still here.
newspapers are still here.
radio is still here.
35mm is still here.
MF is still here.
traditional records are still here.
printed press is still here.
diskfilm is dead
audiotape is all but dead
APS is dying
Anything new is always the end of something established.
When the first 2MP digicams were introduced that was heralded as the end of film too, then the same with 3MP digicams, 5MP, 6MP and now 11MP?
any size is fullframe for a given definition of frame
#23. "RE: review of canon 1ds indicates end of 35mm film cam" | In response to Reply # 0
Whilst the sheer resolving power of the 1Ds is very impressive, I've seen in a couple of reviews that chromatic abheration is becoming an issue due to the LENSES rather than the sensor now. It's time for the L glass lenses to catch up ... how ironic.
I do think that the high-end shift to digital will continue as the quality really is there. I shoot both digital and film but then again I do it for pleasure and not profit. For pro's it makes just so much sense to be digital now.
Full frame? Does it really matter? The 35mm size was due to the reuse of movie film stock originally and not due to any quality or performance reasons ... (Ok, as you can guess I'm a D1X user...).
End of 35mm film cameras? Not at $7k a pop ... However, if there was an afforable alternative to my Contax G2 (I hate the plastic digital RF's) and XPan then I'd be fully digital tomorrow!!
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