Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D100.
For the last two weeks I've been going tooth and comb over the D100 and D60. Looks like the D60 has less noise, requires less processing from RAW files, and the images are closer to the film look. The colors are just gorgeous. Looks like I'm spending some bucks on new lenses...
#1. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 0BJNicholls Charter MemberWed 17-Jul-02 12:54 AM
If you don't have much invested in Nikon equipment then I suppose you could choose a camera system based on one camera. That doesn't make much sense to me, but there obviously are a large number of potential DSLR buyers out there who will buy what they consider the best body du jour, pick up a couple of lenses and be happy until the next batch of cameras shows up.
If Sigma finally delivers the Foveon camera and it cranks out even better jpegs than the D60, would you bail out of Canon to get one? That might work for you, but with digital technology evolving so quickly I'm not interested in playing musical systems...
#2. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 1jnscbl Basic MemberWed 17-Jul-02 01:42 AM
Lucky guy--got to personally use and compare two of the latest digital SLRs. I've heard the Fuji S2 is the best of all. Why couldn't you get hold of one for your tests?
"Less is not more. Enough is enough. Less is less."
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
#11. "Nikon people want to hear nothing bad about Nikons." | In response to Reply # 1
Canon people want to hear nothing bad about Canons... huh, here I always thought you try to use what works best. I thought cameras were tools. I use both PC and Mac, and I always try to use criticism to base my decisions on which software to get for which system... maybe camera people aren't that open minded? Wow... I didn't think my post would elicit such hostilities... sorry.
#12. "RE: Nikon people want to hear nothing bad about Nikons." | In response to Reply # 11Wed 17-Jul-02 07:21 PM
I don'tthink you're getting much histility up to this post, but those were valid points, the technology is evolving extremely quick. What's hot now is obsolete tomorrow. You never know, tomorrow, Minolta may release, a Maxxum 11 DSLR that no one heard a thing about, and release 10 MP camera using three Foveon chip sets... Point is it changes too quickly to base a system upon waht's sold today when tomorrow something bigger and badder appears.
Aaron J. Heiner
Team Coast Guard Photographer
US Department of Homeland Security
#3. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 0
I get the feeling Nikon is kinda like a sinking ship. They are playing catch up with Canon on the digital end. They are playing catch up in the lens end. Their customer service is suckig BIG time. They are practically abandoning their older customers with the G lens. They announce a product and leave their customers hanging UNTIL PRACTICALLY THE VERY DAY THEIR PRODUCT SHOWS UP. Nothing wrong the Nikon existing products... don't know about their future though.
Oh, about the Foveon thing... vaporware. AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND SUNK THEIR HARD-EARNED $$$ ON A SIGMA SYSTEM???? Fuji S2, well... firewire... cool... but cyan/blue bias, I hear all over the place. And problems with lens compatibility. I can imagine other problems that might crop up, seeing they are BASING THEIR SYSTEM ON ANOTHER MANUFACTURER'S BODY!
Some D60 pics.
Just so Portra NC and Fuji NC like... just blooming colors... beautiful.
I'm NOT TRYING TO RAIN ON SOME PEOPLE'S PARADES. ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO ALREADY PURCHADED THE D100. Hell, I got lot of Nikon stuff, it's not that great going Canon, but I gotta call it the way I see it. NOW, IF SOMEONE HAS PICS THAT CAN RIVAL THOSE PICS please, show me the links. SHOW ME THE MONEY!IT WOULD CERTAINLY SAVE ME PLENTY TO GO D100 OR S2!!!
#4. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 3Wed 17-Jul-02 09:38 AM
I looked at several of the photos on the pbase site, and they tell me nothing. I downloaded the full-size file of four shots and looked at them very closely. Every one of them had been subject to heavy unsharp masking. Whether it was done in the camera or with PS, those pictures don't accurately depict what the camera produces "straight off the sensor". If they were manipulated in PS, the saturation could have been bumped up as well.
I recommend you take a look at these photos done by Terry Graham
and these shots I took
The macro shots are derived from RAW files, and not subject to sharpening or tone adjustment. The jpgs have been heavily compressed to stay under the 70k file limit as well.
Have you actually shot pictures with either camera?
#5. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 4DrMark Basic MemberWed 17-Jul-02 10:31 AM
>I looked at several of the photos on the pbase site, and
Damn Victor, I guess based on your pictures my D100 might of been a good investment after all. Oh well, didn't really want to sell off my Nikkors and F5, D100 anyway.
Good job, Great pic's.
#6. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 3
>I get the feeling Nikon is kinda like a sinking ship. They
>are playing catch up with Canon on the digital end.
Well, I think Nikon has a slight edge on the digital side. It's true they are far behind the curve in respect to 'S' and 'VR' lenses. But I appears they got the message and are catching up.
> Their customer service is
> suckig BIG time. They are practically abandoning their older
>customers with the G lens.
No bonus point for Canon on this side either. They changed the lens design years ago. I just wish, Nikon would have taken a more revolutionary step and abandon the F-mount. As many bodies don't take the G-lens anyhow and digital seems to be the way of the future Nikon should have taken the chance and introduce a whole new line of lens designs for the digital bodies. Unless they are playing some smart business strategy and introduce another lens design in the future.
>They announce a product and leave
>their customers hanging UNTIL PRACTICALLY THE VERY DAY THEIR
>PRODUCT SHOWS UP.
What's the information you could not get before the D100 got released, finally?
>Some D60 pics.
I agree, the D60 pics fit my needs (Landscapes) the best. But the difference is not that significant that it would be worthwhile to dump my Nikon gear. Especially since there is no guarantee that updated models would show the same pic quality.
Interestingly, you posted a 'portrait' shot as example for the D60 picture quality. Personally, I don't like the D60 skin tones - too Velvia like (thats why I would like the D60 for Landscapes).
to see some quality pictures of the D100 and a direct comparison of D100 / D60 portraits
Have a nice day
Learn more about me and the Nikonians team on ourTeam Page.
#10. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 6
I took a look at Steve's pics. Those are really amateurish. And with a bad color cast. Geeze. That's the GOOD EXAMPLES?
And I'm talking about a camera to take PORTRAIT PICTURES. Maybe I wasn't beeing clear. D60 takes better PEOPLE SHOTS. Shots of race cars, flowers... cats... geeze...
You say those links I provided LOOK LIKE VELVIA? What the heck are you talking about? THOSE ARE NOT VC looking. You provided a link to reginaphotos with flower shots. Really saturated colors. THOSE are Velvia-like shots. Man, maybe you need to have your monitor caliberated. Although they're pretty pictures, but simplistic. Those shots could be taken with any point and shoot camera. Even G2 without a sweat.
#9. "RE: Bummer. Looks like D60 wins in image quality over D" | In response to Reply # 3
No need to YELL. Your posting looks just like a troll and I simply wanted to find out where you're coming from.
Yeah, the Sigma camera is vaporware for who knows how long. No, I wouldn't seriously consider getting into a Sigma "system" for many reasons unrelated to the Foveon technology. That doesn't stop many folks from drooling in anticipation of Sigma digital - check out the many questions in DPReview where people were debating what to buy: Canon, Nikon, Fuji or Sigma. Such questions assume that the only real consideration is the camera. And not the handling and capabilities of the camera, just the resolution and whatever chip wins for what they perceive to be the best image quality. That kind of approach is short-sighted at best IMHO.
Nikon had the D1 on the market years before Canon's first DSLR. Canon has come a long way and some of their cameras have some advantages in some areas. Canon has been the one playing catch-up until recently and it's nice to finally have some competition from them. Canon now has a pro DSLR and the D60. The D60 is a modestly-featured midline SLR with a very nice imaging system.
You may or may not be right about the D60 cranking out better jpegs more consistently. When DPReview has test files to compare, perhaps that question will be answered to my satisfaction. Your file links mean nothing. I've seen good and not so good images from all the DSLRs recently introduced.
I'll wait for images made under controlled conditions before making my choice between the D100 and S2. I'm not going to move to Canon based on the D60 as you're suggesting. But whatever the image quality battle between the D100 and S2 reveals, I'll also consider the functionality of the camera including the controls, lag time, batteries and battery life, memory card capability, etc. I consider any DSLR now to be a temporary stepping stone, so I want the best camera for my needs weighing all the pros and cons. Personally, I'll shoot RAW files since I prefer quality and control, so the jpeg quality isn't a big deal in my evaluation.
Since you didn't put anything in your profile (another reason I suspected your post was a troll) I'll assume your "Nikon stuff" includes camera equipment of recent vintage. Canon has led in IS and HSM technology for a long time, so if that kind of tech advantage is so important, you've taken your time figuring out the situation.
Even if you're sincere about wanting to give Nikon a chance, your approach is impatient and subjective. The dust is far from settled on the new cameras and there's no advantage to many of us to jump in and buy before the thoughful reviews and comparisons come in.
Meanwhile, it sounds like you'll be spending some time selling off your Nikon gear. I wish you well in the transition...
#7. "I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 0
...the differences between the D100 and D60. Both are darn fine, more affordable digital SLRs. I think for most folks, it will really come down to ergonomics or (for most of us) how much you have invested in either Nikkor or Canon lenses. Both systems have their stronger and weaker points, but quite frankly the weakest link in imaging-making with either camera is the nut behind the wheel.
And one should be careful to judge the true image quality of either camera by someone else's work. You really have no way of knowing if the "testers" (who may not even be the same person for each camera system) have used optimal sharpening, tone curves, white balance, or contrast settings for each individual system. All that really matters is whether or not you can make images that suit you with one or the other. And someone else can't do that for you. I don't have any real complaints about what the D100 can do for me (I have had one for about a week or so), and I have only scratched the surface so far. I already know I can dial in just about whatever saturation, warmth, coolness I want in images. You can probably do the same with the D60. What's not to like?
Pick one, shoot, and be happy.
#13. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 8Wed 17-Jul-02 07:26 PM
I know you're extremely well versed in DSLR, have you thought about trying to do a good side by side comparison. I'm pretty sure that if anyone on here could do that it would be you
I'm sure there are other guys on here who could as well, but I'm familular with Vic's background in digital from a few times we've talked on the threads in regards to digital.
Aaron J. Heiner
Team Coast Guard Photographer
US Department of Homeland Security
#15. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 13Wed 17-Jul-02 11:53 PM
>I know you're extremely well versed in DSLR, have you
>thought about trying to do a good side by side comparison.
>I'm pretty sure that if anyone on here could do that it
>would be you
Me?! "Extremely well versed"? C'mon Aaron!
I'd be willing to do some comparisons, but I don't have access to a D60. I have my D1 and D100, and I can get a D1X from work long enough to try it alongside my two. I'd like some suggestions as to how you would like the comparison conducted.
#16. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 15AlanC Basic MemberThu 18-Jul-02 05:28 PM
Thanks for offering to do us a comparison.
If you could manage to get hold of the D1x then I'd suggest shooting an outdoor scene containing some fine detail using the same lens on both cameras and shooting in RAW mode. Comparing 100% crops from unsharpened images should let us see just how big a difference there is in terms of sharpness and resolving power. The same images resized to show the full frames would give an idea of how the cameras render colour and contrast.
#17. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 16Thu 18-Jul-02 05:44 PM
I can very likely do that over the weekend. I have an AF 50mm f/1.4. I'll use that and shoot at the middle f/stops. That should be as sharp as anything I've got. Other reasonable suggestions and requests will also be accepted.
Speak now or forever hold your peace.
#19. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 17Fri 19-Jul-02 10:11 AM
Our staff photog is on vacation today (Friday), and took the D1X with him. I'll be able to get it and do the testing early next week. In the meantime, let me know how you'd like to see the comparison conducted.
#22. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 19
#18. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 15Fri 19-Jul-02 12:13 AM
Well, Victor, you're shooting with far more than I am I'd settle right now for a first gen D1, lol, ah but in a decade I'll be debating betwen like 9 in Nikons line up
Aaron J. Heiner
Team Coast Guard Photographer
US Department of Homeland Security
#20. "RE: I wouldn't lose too much sleep over..." | In response to Reply # 18karspoul Basic MemberSat 20-Jul-02 09:34 AM
Hi ksocool, you are new to this site and therefore you are probably unaware of BJ's postings. While oozing with a true love for photography and Nikon they are open-minded and matter-of-fact so I think you misjudged him on that one.
I can't help feeling that BJ's suspicion may be right. If so, I think that is sad. Judging by reviews from numerous sources, your self included, the D60 is a great camera that should be able to sway the public by its own merit. I think this kind of propaganda will convince few people on this site. Must of us roam many sites, read magazines etc. before we decide what to buy and it does not take many hours readings on Nikonian before you know who knows more than the average person and value their input higher than the contributions from the rest of us. But of course postings like this does generate a lot of traffic and the telecoms need it right now so it is good for something…
Naturally you might be a genuine Nikon owner. If so, why don't you put your stuff on sale here? You will not find another place with more keen buyers who know the real value of Nikon.
As to customer service it is not the first time it has been mentioned. I have good impressions of both Canon and Nikon. Unfortunately the two Canon products I have owned did not last very long. The first one, an Ixus II, was dropped unto a stone floor. Despite its full metal jacket it more or less imploded. That is hardly Canon's fault and I can't blame Canon for wanting payment for inspection. In the end the money from the insurance was the first instalment on my F80 so I don't complain. The other item, a rucksack definitely not made by Canon but by some company pinning the Canon label on it in the end under license, recently lost a zipper. It was very cheap and lasted for three years. I liked it very much and the value for money ratio was very favourable. When my wife saw the sadness in my eyes she donated money to a Lowe Pro Rover AW so that intermezzo with Canon had a happy ending as well.
When I have contacted both Nikon and Canon regarding various materials and with various questions the feedback have been very fast from both of them. The same goes for Mamiya, Leica, Pentax, Minolta and numerous others. It is difficult to say which is the better, but the brochure Leica sends are more of book - they get top scores on this with me. And the service better be outstanding from all this local representatives, because with web-shopping the local distributors risk being made redundant very fast.
It is very likely that you have been barred from access to information on the D100 if you have been on a photo expedition in North Korea for the last 6 months or so. But rest assured that now you have found www.nikonians.org you will be well informed.
The Coolpix twist line with the fabulous macro capabilities can hardly be inferior to Canon products and the speed Nikon is churning out new products at the moment is in my eyes very impressing. The G2 problems lately does not add to the reputation of Canon, does it? Nevertheless for the majority of the users here I dare saying we will not notice the difference between Canon and Nikon. High quality at reasonable prices, albeit still too high to many of us.
If somebody handed me a brand new D60 (with a lens) I would happily use it. If I were lucky in the Lotto tonight I would buy a D100 (with a very wide lens) the day after tomorrow. I feel so happy on behalf of all those gals (and guys) who have been able to afford buying a D60 or a D100. Owning a digital SLR probably adds a new dimension to this wonderful hobby of ours - just as owning a medium format or a large format would. So keep shooting - but just pictures, eh?