I think it explains the 'underexposure problem' people are having. I dont think the whole image is underexposed. I think that some of the colours are rendered darker than they should be. And profile prism seems to correct everything very nicely.
It means that your whole workflow has been profiled, even your camera.
One thing you may have to do is set this up for each ISO level.
Thanks for the clarification. I suspected it was made for RAW, but wanted to make sure.
PP does seem to do a very good job getting the "exposure curve" right for many cameras. If you participate in the PP mailing list you have probably read where many people were impressed at the way it did this.
N.B. Since i sound like a PP ad, I want to clarify to all that I have no interest in Profile Prism or DDI software. I'm just a happy customer.
I havent yet managed to do it for my printer yet. I cant wait until I get a chance tommorrow. Its going to be so nice having what I see on the screen printed in the best possible way.
I would have had the printer profiled earlier but I was trying to profile the scanner first. Little did I realised how crap my scanner was. There were quite a few patches that were close to white that the scanner rendered white! So it wasnt really very good at recognising the various shades. So I am going to use my D100 as a scanner.
I will take a picture of the actual target with the camera and get that profiled. I will then print out the target they provid. Photograph that ( apply previous profile to correct the camera colour ) and then let PP create the printer profile.
Your proposed process for profiling your printer will give you the best results achieveable, given that your scanner is not up to the job. Just be sure to photograph the provided target and the printed target in the same shot. I'm sure you realize this, but you didn't say it in the message above.
I will say this: I have an Epson 1270 printer. I had tried many times in the past to profile it with Epson papers and earlier versions of PP. I could never get results that equaled that of Epson's supplied profiles. Newer versions of PP are better, from what I understand. I am still happy with the Epson profiles when used with Epson papers. If I were to try using papers other than Epson's, I would definitely use PP to try to get the best results.
I am somewhat confused. If color profiling merely improves colors, how did the shadows get brightened? Were the shadows actually colors outside of the gamut of colors able to be expressed by the SRGB profile, or did color profiling actually brighten shadows? This profiling is amazing. It does what I have been trying to do all along with custom tone curves.
When you apply a curve you are applying the curve to the TONE of the image, I am sure you know this.
I beleive that the D100 doesnt under-expose BUT renders a lot of the colours darker than they should be. So when you add a curve like you do, you are attempting to brighten certain parts of the tonal range of the image.
Profiling does the same thing really, after photographing the 753 swatch color target the program uses this data to work out what the camera is doing wrong - the program knows what the values of the swatches SHOULD be and works accordinly.
basically you get a peice of card with the software with 700+ color swatches on it. The software knows what the colours should be and when you photograph them with your camera it looks at the image you took and then compare what the colours came out like and what they should be and creates an ICC profile which interpolates and corrects the colours.
Good seeing you on this forum. I believe I saw many posts from you on the DPReview.com Nikon SLR forums.
Profiles are very new to me, so please overlook the fact that I may be asking some very basic questions.
To begin with, I ordered the Profile Prism software package this AM. From what you had alluded to, I am assuming that you load the software that came with the package. Then I surmise that you set up the profile card that came with the package and photograph the card. Well, what happens next? I realize that this may seem like a mundane question, but for many of us, these profiles represent something entirely new. I definitely want to learn.
Is it a simple process to establish a profile for the D100 - or any other camera for that matter, using this software package?
OK once you have photographed it and imported it into Profile prism it then creates an ICC profile for you.
You can then open the image in photoshop and assign the new profile to the picture. Easy as that - you will the see the image change as it interprets the ICC profile.. rather like the images you see of the flowers and the changes that made.
Ask away any other questions, I am not a expert at this - just a damn fast learner.
Ben, Welcome to the world of a calibrated workflow! Building icc profiles are easy, but it's just part of a larger picture that you'll have to go thru. Expect to calibrate your monitor, that's the basis of how your profiles will work. You might consider getting a calibration package for your monitor that has a hardware calibrator! I calibrate my monitor every 2days but can probably get away with every week. Once you have everything done, you'll be able to soft proof with a relatively cheap printer, take that same file and send it to a high res printer with very little color shift. I'm excited for you!
This is a very important question...YOU CANNOT CALIBRATE A LCD MONITOR...and what i mean is most calibration devices adjust the output of the color guns in a CRT monitor. This cannot be done with a LCD monitor. BUT!!!! When you use a calibration device with your LCD monitor, it reads the color values of the monitor to build a accurate monitor profile, without adjusting the color guns, After you build a profile for your LCD monitor, your camera ICC profile takes this into account. This is why you can get predictable color from a LCD, and it shows the importance of using profiles for your devices and output.
I use the ColorVision Spyder with PhotoCal to calibrate my NEC LCD display. The Spyder system is now set up to calibrate LCD displays and I can control the RGB intensities of my display with the display's menu or with a profile. I calibrate frequently but probably not frequently enough and the display now produces colors that closely match those of the original scenes and my calibrated printer.
Hey Joe! Thanks for the example, I realize that calibrators like the Spyder and others can read and calibrate LCD monitors, what they cannot do is measure and contol color gun output i.e LaCie Blue with a Color Blue monitor. Although, that kind of control is coming! The tonal response curves are almost never gamma shaped in LC Displays. Unlike CRTs, which have a typical gamma-shaped curve close to 2.2, LCDs display a wider range of 1.8 to 3.7. Some curves are not even gamma shaped. Further, the gray balance of uncalibrated CRTs range less than 5 delta e from black to white, while LCDs can display a range of 30 delta e with grays going to brown and purple. So, the firmware of the Spyder and PhotoCAL and OptiCAL software were enhanced to recognize and compensate for the greater variety of response curve shapes when bringing LCDs into calibration, unlike a CRT that can be read and adjusted directly. <on some monitors> So viewing a LCD screen with a D50 or D60 simulation might prove difficult or impossible for some LCD screens.
And I just recently purchased a nice 17" Samsung LCD Monitor too. But one step at a time. Right now I've got my LCD Monitor calibrated using Adobe Gamma - rich, but actually overly rich - but that is how the step-by-step instructions told me to go.
I'm new to the profile business, so I will become enmeshed in all of the intricacies of the Profile Prism setup. The thought of turning around and again trying to establish a profile for my LCD screen was daunting to say the least.
Based on what you said about LCD monitors, am I wrong in using Adobe Gamma to set my screen? Because the colors are intensely rich and the screen is so sharp, it's downright scary! Please advise...
Ben, Since you haven't got your software yet, you might consider trying a different gamma. <using the slider for less saturation> One question though, how is your output compared to your screen? You could just set your screen for pleasing color and use a printer profile that best approximates your screen. One of the things we don't want to do is change your screen values to match a print, that's what profiles are for. Since LCD's are pretty stable you could use "pleasing color" as a start when profiling. When your software comes in, it will have it's own steps it takes to build your profile, and some of them require turning off gamma. Don't get discouraged, this wil be fun!
Geeezz, this forum is getting too addictive. Here I am sitting here mumbling to myself about profiles. My wife comes into the room complaining that I've spent the last six months of our marriage glued to the screen. I turn to her and remark that I'm trying to learn about profiles. She in turn responds with, "Oh yeah, I got your profile right here...!" (not a good thing since she had frying pan in her hand, shaking it aggressively). Have most of us become really that sick!!!
This is an incredible finding. Is there any possible way you could email me your custom profile? I'm thinking of purchasing Profile Prizm after seeing your results and comparing them to the results of my custom tone curve. I want to see if the tonality of both are similar. Thanks!
Whoahh, just off of Nikonians for couple of days and I almost missed the best thread of the month. Still for dumb and dumber like me this profile business has made me crazy.....and finally I let the frontierman do it. Very desparate, huh!
Peter, you said that: Unfortunately any profiles created with this software are only allowed to be distributed among other owners of the software. I'm a mac user and PP is PC platform. I'm willing to buy the software. and if I did can I get your D100 profiles? It should be the same for every D100 firmware 2.0 world wide?
Your pictures is really outstanding, and the description is so complicated..I'm willing to learn..but step by step please.
Pinky Mirror Nikonians@Jakarta,Indonesia-- it's near Bali, if you don't know where it is
Yes I am sure if you bought the software I could send you my profiles, but the best way to do it is to
a) buy the software ( which includes the 753 color patch target card ) b) Buy a gray card for metering your WB c) get your WB right and then take a photograph of the card, you will want to take quite a few shots for each level varying the exposure. I have found the the D100 under-exposes the target card by quite a bit. It is not good to correct it in the NEF. Need to get it right in the original. d) Send me the files and I will build the profiles for you.
I am sure that this should be OK, because if you hae the target you would have bought the software.
Its not good to assume that all D100 are exactly alike....
Peter, I own Profile Prism. Here's a part of a message sent to me: "Profile Prism registered user, You may download the v2.1 update from the URL above. The username/password to access this URL are:xxxxxxxxxxxx Profile Prism v2.1 (02/08/02)"
Would it be possible to send me your D100 PP profile?
Quite remarkable results. I have been using fotogenic's point-and-shoot curves to compensate for my D100's "underexposure". I have used ProfilePrism (with mixed results) to calibrate my printer (Canon S900) and will try it with my D100.
Thanks for posting your results. Have you produced profiles for various ISO's and WB settings? Or does one size fit all?
I am creating ones for each ISO level. I always set my WB manually using a gray card and never touch the others. So basically any time I take a photograph the WB is always spot on.
It's going to be rather interesting to see what happens when I get to ISO1600 because the colours are rather less saturated at that level. I am hoping that PP will bring some life back into the pictures.
One thing to remember about taking a photo of the target, is that the D100 typically under-exposes it by one or two stops, so you will need to compensate for that. Try creating various profiles with exposure set at differing levels. The software does actually warn you if the image is under/over exposed.
My take on this is that the D100 renders darker colours too dark ( maybe to avoid noise?!? ) and PP corrects this and brings out the detail in the shadows.
One tip - READ THE MANUAL - from front to back - lots of tips and issues pointed out that you should watch for. Also make sure you have the latest version.
Help me understand this. You can profile your monitor and you can profile your printer. What does profiling your camera do? You can't upload an ICC profile to the camera. Or can you?
If you have profiled your camera/printer then all this ensures is that your print will look like what you have been editing on screen in you photo editor (assuming of course, that your appllication is capable of ICC color management.) How does this improve what has been captured? And if it doesn't then what is a "camera" ICC profile used for?
Here's what I understand to be the theory. When you take a photograph with the D100 you set the color space to I, II or III (sRGB, Adobe RGB, sRGB2). These are approximations of the D100's true color response. And since they are fixed, the approximations are more accurate for some lighting situations than others. When you "profile" your D100 you are creating a more exact color response and can create ICC profiles for different ISO's and for different lighting situations (flash versus daylight). In Photoshop or other ICC-aware applications your image initially is recognized by the color space setting you have chosen in the camera. But you can convert to a new color space through the Image>Mode menu. By doing so you can assign the profile you created to the photo. Now you're using a profile that more accurately depicts the scene you shot, on a monitor that shows colors accurately, and can print to a printer that prints color accurately. In theory it is a better way to achieve correct colors that manipulating curves or color correcting in Photoshop. Hope that helps.