Colour editing for printing.
I have taken some acceptable flower pix with a D7K and Micro Nikkor 60mm.
I am editing/retouching in CS5. One picis an azelia which is shades of pink with a yellow top on th stamen, and yellow pollen deep in th flower.
Out of several trial pix, th tip of th stamen comes out green..and th pollen at the base of th stamen virtually turns black...
I have tried painting in yellow at th base, but it takes a green tinge and th result is a mess.
I am printing with an Epson R800.
Any suggestions for a cure?
Yellow seems to be a difficult colour to print.
#1. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 0Sun 01-May-11 11:24 AM | edited Sun 01-May-11 02:52 PM by Robp
You may have already done the preliminary work and are actually trying to change colors with painting; if so, please disregard my assumptions. I'm guessing that you need to make some basic adjustments rather than painting-in colors..Start with your un-edited RAW file in ACR. Turn on the warning lights in the histogram window and adjust Exposure/Recovery and Blacks/Fill Light to just turn the warnings off. Read about highlight and shadow recovery in the manual and try the tricks.
Edit: This was written based on your stating that the colors were wrong in the image, assumed to be on-screen. If the display image is OK, then you have a printing issue that is probably Color Management related, as Obregon suggests in his Reply #2. Let us know where the problem is.
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#2. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 0Obregon Charter MemberSun 01-May-11 11:54 AM
It's important to have a color-managed workflow. Is your monitor calibrated? I am not familiar with the drivers for the R800, although a look at the website for Epson does not reveal whether profiles for papers are available, but if they are, have you used the correct profile? Have you soft-proofed your image using a profile to see what the expected print should look like, and tried to make adjustments to the soft proof? While soft proofing, have you checked which colors are out of gamut?
The R800 has limited usefulness for fine colot printing with only four colors available, compared to Epson printers with say 8 colors, so don't expect too much of it.
#3. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 2Mon 02-May-11 08:59 AM
The R800 has 8 colours, and was the top pic printer in th slightly unreasonable price range at date of purchase.
The pic on th monitor is th way I want th pic to print.
But on printing, the grains of polen, visible on the monitor, just disapear into a dark hole at the apex of the flower....where it joins th stem.
I have had problems with yellow before.
The hundreds of individual flowers in a spray of King Orchids comes out as a great yellow blob without detail...even on th monitor...unless very carefully handled.
The orange (!) of my 104 yr old MIL's hair and the beard of the cook presenting her birthday cake, just print like scrambled egg..whatever colour setting I try for printing.
So yes, the problem exists in the printing stage.
But I suspect there might be a problem with electronic digital sensors handling very saturated subjects.
#4. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 3robsb Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006Mon 02-May-11 03:59 PM
Since you are using Adobe products and not CNX2 what settings are you using in Adobe? Your camera settings will not be read, so your Adobe settings are what you need to check. what does your histogram look like? Are any of the colors slamming against the ends causing over saturation? Are you using the latest profiles for your printer? What kind of paper are you using?
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#6. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 5Jim031 Registered since 10th Apr 2011Mon 02-May-11 10:04 PM
I just started this serious printing business so what I have to contribute may be way really way off base.
It sounds like your printer is having trouble replicating your color gamut. What I think that means is the software in adobe is sending colors to the printer that it can't reproduce and in trying it just forgets you wanted those different tones in your yellows. There is a way to see these out of gamut colors in CSE but I can't remember how to do it as I use NX2. I do remember that whatever color is out of gamut will show up as magenta on your screen. Not in your print.
Are you using the computer to manage colors? Have you tried letting the printer manage colors? You may have and I just didn't see it in your post. I had a issue with greens printing as rust color on the fringes of the leaves and it turned out to be me (imagine that!) using different color spaces although at the time I didn't know it.
#7. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 6Mon 02-May-11 11:43 PM
Jim, you might be right in thinking that there is an out-of-gamut issue here because a malfunctioning printer would not exhibit it's full gamut, but it would be a rare case if all of the settings in the Color Management train of operations are correct and the printer is depositing ink correctly. If this is one of those rare cases, I suspect that a major difference would be seen in images printed with Perceptual and Relative Colormetric rendering applied.
I think you may be over-estimating the Out-of-Gamut problem. The whole purpose of a Color Engine is to map colors from one color space to another using ICC Profiles which describe the characteristics of the adjacent color spaces. This "mapping" of colors is influenced by choosing a rendition method, usually either Perceptual Rendition, which preserves relationships between colors usually making the image more natural looking, or Relative Colormetric, which preserves more of the original colors at the possible expense of a less natural look. Rendition effects have been discussed at length and well in a post by Hitoshi Ujiie in the Color Management forum at URL
I discussed the mapping reality in Replies # 14 & 16 in another thread at URL
The examples of out-of-gamut images that I used were so grossly exaggerated that one would NEVER see a real world image that bad and yet the Color Engine still managed a credible translation (mapping) of the colors from the out-of-gamut space to a printer's color space.
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#8. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 7Tue 03-May-11 11:18 AM | edited Tue 03-May-11 11:24 AM by ozzy1
Theres lots of good suggestions here for me to work through..And thank you for your contributions.
I have tried to let th printer control colour, but mainly I let Photoshop manage.
The flower in this case is shades of pink or maybe magenta is closer.
It seems to swamp the pic. There is just th stamen white with the yellow button on top, and the pollen grains at th base. Maybe I can print it here...
Th pollen grains at th base are what I want to show up more to add some interest. They dont show up noticeably in th print..just a sort of darkening hole.
Checking th pic on this thread, thats what I wd like it to look like in th print.
I have capturenx2..havent tried it yet. Maybe I can get it with that.
#9. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 8Tue 03-May-11 02:13 PM | edited Tue 03-May-11 02:16 PM by Robp
Cedric, this image looks rough to me. It's blown-out and noisy. Take a look at my comments in Reply #1 regarding the warning lights in the histogram window of ACR. You can do a lot more with a RAW file than a JPG, but you can still make some adjustment. And yes, you can open a JPG in ACR if you set that option in Camera Raw's Precedent file.
1. Is the original a RAW/NEF file?
I ask because your profile indicates that you retain mainly JPG format files and I believe that you can better adjust a RAW image. Such adjustment might still not fully explain your printing issue, however.
Bob's comment in his Reply #4 regarding the histogram is germane.
2. Why don't you take a grab-shot of your histogram window and post it to give us a little more information?
3. Have you cleaned your print heads and performed a head alignment?
4. Have you confirmed that all of your Color Management settings are correct? Ian Lyons provides an excellent tutorial on CS5 Color Management at the following URL:
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#10. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 9Wed 04-May-11 10:33 AM | edited Wed 04-May-11 10:35 AM by ozzy1
Yes It is a high ISO pic taken with available light.
I have never used histograms yet, but here is th one for this pic.
It seems to be blown out both ends as suggested above.
It is no longer available as a raw file..it is JPEG.
Print heads clean and aligned.
Not at all sure about colour management settings. Will look up Ian Lyons.
Paper Epson Ultraglossy.
#11. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 10sevtcard Nikonian since 05th Mar 2009Wed 04-May-11 10:47 AM
is your monitor calibrated - if you are losing information, it is probably too bright - might want to try 5500k instead of 6500k if you do calibrate...in addition, you don't have a lot of info in this image - it's blown at both ends.
#12. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 10Wed 04-May-11 04:49 PM
Cedric, everything we've thought about the appearance of the histogram is true and it provides pretty clear indication of needed adjustments. I've taken the liberty of playing with your posted JPG just to see if some positive effect could be achieved. I think it worked pretty well, so I'll try to show what i did.
Please understand that there are a zillion ways to approach image enhancement and I'm sure that some more experienced readers will have better ideas. Further, I just plowed along through the adjustment options without worrying about the fact that some of the adjustments were redundant; you could probably improve this considerably. I chose to make all adjustments in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) because I'm comfortable with it (mainly because it excels in adjusting RAW image data, but it works well with JPG's also); you could probably replicate these adjustments in CS5 if you choose.
Without doubt, similar adjustments applied to a RAW image would achieve far better results, but we have to deal with what we have. The image that I worked on has been seriously degraded by the JPG compression algorithms applied to reduce your file size to that required by Nikonians. If you will work on your original JPG and not apply any further compression, you should get much better results than I have.
OK, all that blathering and qualification aside, here is what I did.
Set Preferences in ACR (you can call ACR Preferences up in CS5) to open JPG's in ACR upon initially opening the JPG with CS5. When you first open the image, click on the Highlight Warning indicators in the histogram window; you'll see that both ends of the histogram are blown out as indicated by warning colors shown in the image. I usually attempt to correct these by adjusting Exposure and Blacks in the Basic adjustment panel, but this image is so extreme that I had to use the Tone Curve to just delete the useless data outside of the reproducible color spectrum.
Adjust the Tone Curve panel to kill the blown highlights and blacks by clicking at the extreme ends of the curve and setting the coordinates at the lower left to 0,1 and the upper right to 255, 254. Then I adjusted the quarter points of the curve to 64,74 and 192,182 to add some contrast.
Adjust the Basic panel as shown to push luminance toward a more pleasing mid-ground and colors and clarity to my liking.
Adjust the HSL/Greyscale panel to bring up those yellow that you like.
Adjust the Detail panel to reduce the noise and sharpen the image. I chose to use a High Radius, Low Amount setting instead of the reverse because it gave much more natural results.
Here is the final product:
Try making these adjustments and then print the image to see if that affects the outcome. Let us know if image adjustment helps correct the print.
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#13. "RE: Colour editing for printing." | In response to Reply # 12Thu 05-May-11 08:35 AM
Gee Rob, that looks great!
I dont pretend to know a lot about Photoshop or Raw processing...I know nothing of th latter...altho it does seem the best way to deal with processing.
And I know enough about Photoshop to tart up my pics somewhat.
Seeing what you have done with that pic, I can see that I might "save" a lot of disappointing images when I master th necessary techniques.
Anyway, thats why I am in th Nikonians..to learn stuff.
Thanks for your effort. Its a great eye-opener and incentive to dig a bit deeper and learn a bit more!