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Boat bird trip settings

rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Sun 15-Sep-13 07:35 PM

I am going on boat trip to photograph sea birds. Thinking of using my D800 with 80-200 2.8S and my 2X TC 20Ell. Thinking this set up will be easier to use than my 200-400 for all day standing in rough seas.
Considering using M at 1/2000 at 5.6 and auto ISO. Blue sky +1 white sky probably +2. Will shoot RAW to adjust missed exposures.
AFC 3D

Does all of this make sense, or are there better setups to consider?


Thanks,
Roger

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#1. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Sun 15-Sep-13 06:33 PM


Are the birds flying? Personally I've never had much luck with 3D, and tend to use D9 (cluttered background) or D21 (less cluttered). But you'll know if it doesn't work for you, just see if it's grabbing focus on the wrong things. Certainly 3D is exactly for what you plan to be shooting, just never had a lot of luck personally.

Birds on water are also one of the few places I use a polarizer, you might give it a try if you have it.

Linwood

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JazzDoc

Rochester, US
471 posts

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#2. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

JazzDoc Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 11th Mar 2006
Sun 15-Sep-13 09:14 PM

Roger: I would not kiss off the 200-400 so fast. I have been on several sea trips with Lindblad/Nat. Geo. (all day and all night on boats for long periods...). My favorite has been the 200-400, sometimes with a 1.4x depending upon the wildlife expected. However, I have always had it mounted on a monopod, or tripod used as a monopod, along with a Wimberley Sidekick. This ensemble works very well, unloads the weight, and allows considerable control that is simply impossible handholding for very long.
Now, what about vibration transmitted through the pod? The shutter speeds you plan to use work nicely, but my trick has been to also place the pod leg on a dense foam knee pad or similar. I often use my own boot, shoe, whatever at the tip. This dampens vibration remarkably well--same principle as a sandbag, which would also work under the pod but is cumbersome. My toe and shoes go everywhere. I've done the same in small boats as well (e.g. canoe, Zodiac), and have typically found this to be easier and more enduring than handholding such a heavy lens-camera combo.
As for exposure, I also like M mode for the changing light with altitude problem, but typically spot meter the bird or something very near to the target's characteristics. This issue is particularly annoying with cloudy skies with birds landing or taking off.
Cheers
Gary

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avisys

Placitas, US
482 posts

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#3. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

avisys Basic Member
Sun 15-Sep-13 09:16 PM | edited Sun 15-Sep-13 09:22 PM by avisys

You'll be bouncing around a lot on that boat. Would you consider an investment (or rental) of a 70-200 VRII? And a lot of those birds will be against a bright sky --- maybe spot metering. But then, they'll pop down against the sea --- Oh! Damn!

Small boat or big boat would make the difference. Big boat, maybe the 200-400 is the best choice. Small boat (Maybe Shearwater Journeys? out of Monterey, a relatively small boat) maybe VR would be very helpful, and the 200-400 very tiring.

I'd, personally, worry about the 2.0 as for IQ with that lens. Maybe the 1.7 ????

This is a big deal to spend a lot of time thinking and planning . . .

AviSys

rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#4. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 1

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Mon 16-Sep-13 02:07 PM

I will keep D9 and D21 in mind if 3D won't hold on the birds. Would not have considered taking a polarizer--I do have one, and will take it--could be very helpful for birds on the water coming to chum.

Good ideas!

Thanks,
Roger

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#5. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 2

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Mon 16-Sep-13 02:16 PM

Always thought vibration would be too much. I have tried putting a monopod in to a fisherman's belt. This works pretty well if the seas are moderate. This is a small 53 foot boat out of Bodega, CA. The locals call it Blow-Dega.
Light seas I may take the 200-400.
I have not really used M, but I am thinking of the setting mentioned and letting camera choose ISO. It seems below horizon above horizon and sun angle would be too much for me to use straight M.

Thanks Gary for good suggestions. Hopefully someday for Nat.Geo/Lindblad

Cheers,
Roger

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#6. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 3

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Mon 16-Sep-13 02:22 PM

I will spot-meter, and hoping variable ISO will allow me to set speed and aperture.

It will be small boat like Shearwater Journey's but open ocean all the way, not in protected Monterey Bay.

I don't have a 1.7. I may take off the 2.0 and and count on D800 resolution to have decent crops.

I hope I find a new stunner to log in to my Avisys bird records system--love it!

Thanks,
Roger

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5701 posts

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#7. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 5

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Mon 16-Sep-13 02:22 PM


>I have not really used M, but I am thinking of the setting
>mentioned and letting camera choose ISO. It seems below
>horizon above horizon and sun angle would be too much for me
>to use straight M.

That's often when I find fixed exposure needed. Hypothetically say you are shooting into the same direction (relative to the sun), a bird's body is going to be lit more or less the same whether (bright or dark depending) water is behind him, or with dark land bhind, or as he flies into a blue sky, or passes in front of a white cloud. You want the same exposure in all of these, but in matrix mode the camera is going to be balancing out all the other changes. I find this easier than fooling with EV compensation.

But it works poorly if the sky has scattered clouds (so you are in and out of shade), or if your direction is always changing relative to the sun.


Linwood

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avisys

Placitas, US
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#8. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 6

avisys Basic Member
Mon 16-Sep-13 03:48 PM

Great! Post some results.

AviSys

ljordan316

Inverness, US
830 posts

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#9. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

ljordan316 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2010
Tue 17-Sep-13 06:27 PM | edited Tue 17-Sep-13 06:29 PM by ljordan316

I have used a 200-400mm many times to shoot birds from boats. Some of the boats were stable (pontoon) while some were bouncy (fishing boat). I tried using both a tripod and a monopod, but neither gave me the number of keepers that I wanted. I finally started using a BushHawk shoulder brace. My keeper rate tripled, and I have much more aiming flexibility.

http://bushhawk.com/

I also tried both a 1.4X and a 1.7X with the 200-400mm and finally gave up on both. They just reduced sharpness to much. You can crop like mad with D800 images, so going without a TC works fine.

I use A mode, AF-C and 9 focus points. I also use matrix metering. When the sky is really bright, my birds come out pretty dark but the DR of the D800 is so high that I can bring out the details without much noise using CS6. You have to be really good to use spot metering with BIF because of the movement. I never do EV comp.

You might want to consider the new 80-400mm VR. I have switched from the 200-400mm to that lens for BIF. It works great without much loss of sharpness and is SO LIGHT!

The first 14 shots at the following link were shot with the 80-400mm while the ones after that were mostly shot with a 200-400mm:
http://larryjordan.smugmug.com/Animals/Florida-Wildlife/13940239_x8VjnW#!i=2769271356&k=rK5mhd3

Larry Jordan

D800E, D500, 14-24, 16-35, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 80-400mm AF-S, 500mm AF-S II

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#10. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 9

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Tue 17-Sep-13 08:37 PM

Hello Larry,
I used a Bushhawk many years ago, but I see they have changed a lot since the one I used. Which model are you using, and which one do you recommend? Did you use the Bushhawk with the 200-400?
I tried my 80-200 with 2.0 ext at the beach, and had low success rate, so I think I will go with your and others recommendation and take the 200-400.
I understand AF-C and 9 focus points. I am surprised at Matrix metering with small dark bird and bright blue sky or even brighter white sky. I am not doubting you, because I just looked at your images--WOW! Could you please explain why Matrix is better choice than Spot? I would like to understand the logic.
I am not getting any younger so "light" sounds great on the 80-400. Do you use Bushhawk with this lens also?
Thank you so much for your input.
Roger from sister town Inverness, CA.

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dm1dave

Lowden, US
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#11. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 10

dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Writer Ribbon awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Nikonians community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006
Tue 17-Sep-13 09:30 PM

Spot metering is not well suited for birds in flight.

In order for spot metering to work correctly you focus point must be over mid-toned object. If you focus point hits the bright sky the meter will calculate an under exposure – if the focus point hits the water it will calculate an overexposure.

If lighting is consistent it is probably best to dial in correct exposure and set the camera to manual mode and shoot with fixed shutter, aperture and ISO.

Most of the time I use center-weighted or matrix metering when shooting birds in flight in inconsistent lighting conditions.

Dave Summers
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JazzDoc

Rochester, US
471 posts

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#12. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

JazzDoc Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 11th Mar 2006
Tue 17-Sep-13 09:41 PM

The idea behind spot metering is not to attempt in-flight measures, but to fix a proper exposure in advance of the vagaries of flight. One could do the same with matrix, in many cases useful and close to spot if the birds in mind are neutral. Once exposure is locked--I tend to simply use manual mode--one can adjust exposure quickly without futzing with EC and just tweaking the command dial if needed. At least the overall goal is to maintain exposure on the target of interest and not be overwhelmed by changes in background. All depends upon circumstances in any case. And, you have to be lucky....

Gary Paige

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William Rounds

Rambouillet, FR
732 posts

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#13. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 12

William Rounds Gold Member Nikonian since 25th Mar 2011
Wed 18-Sep-13 10:46 AM | edited Wed 18-Sep-13 11:03 AM by William Rounds

I've only shot birds once from a bouncy boat, so I'm certainly no expert and have little experience. But I had a fair number of keepers using a a D7000 and a 300mm f/4 AFS lens. No VR, but for me having a high shutter speed was more important than depending on VR, and from what I read at least, at 1/500th or faster the VR is not much help.

It was a an overcast day so I used an ExpoDisk for both metering and white balance. In other words, I went totally manual for white balance and exposure. I set a 1/2000th shutter speed, sometimes 1/4000th of a second. I ended up with high ISO's of course, but given the moving boat problem I figured a blurred picture with no noise was less interesting than a sharp photo with a little noise.

Isn't that what having high ISO capability is all about? I don't know which cameras you have, but thinking back on my one day shooting birds on a boat, I probably should have taken my D700 with battery pack and the high frame rate. I'll bet I would have had even more keepers of BIF.

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ljordan316

Inverness, US
830 posts

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#14. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 10

ljordan316 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2010
Wed 18-Sep-13 11:37 AM

I use the standard model for camera as shown below:

Click on image to view larger version


You can save money by using the one for scopes and tape your own cable remote onto it. I actually do that with mine because I like the travel and sensitivity of the button on my remote release better than the one that came on the device.

I use the BushHawk with the 80-400mm, but I have also hand held it with no issues. I did so on a boat in Iceland.

I use spot metering when a bird is standing still because I have the time to get the point in the right spot. I use matrix most of the time because I am lazy...and I can recover the dark anyway.

By the way, I print these images 16" x 24" on canvas for sale in a local gallery.

Attachment#1 (jpg file)

Larry Jordan

D800E, D500, 14-24, 16-35, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 80-400mm AF-S, 500mm AF-S II

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ljordan316

Inverness, US
830 posts

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#15. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 10

ljordan316 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2010
Wed 18-Sep-13 12:58 PM | edited Wed 18-Sep-13 01:03 PM by ljordan316

The two pics below show the BushHawk with the 80-400mm mounted as well as where I attached the shoulder strap. Having a shoulder strap the right length and wearing it appropriately makes all of the difference in comfort and how quickly you can position from rest to shooting. I wear mine over one shoulder and under the other arm. It will tear you up if you just hang it around your neck.

By the way, experiment with Autofocus Lockon. I turn mine off for instantaneous focus when the subject shifts. However, that setting does not produce good results when the background is cluttered (tree limbs and leaves) for BIF.

Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)

Larry Jordan

D800E, D500, 14-24, 16-35, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 80-400mm AF-S, 500mm AF-S II

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ljordan316

Inverness, US
830 posts

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#16. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

ljordan316 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2010
Wed 18-Sep-13 01:44 PM

The following two images show you the results I got in an original RAW BIF capture with a D800e, 200-400mm and BushHawk and what I did with it using CS6. The D800e and 200-400mm capture so much information that you can crop significantly and still get excellent details. And, as you can see with the final cropped images, you can bring out dark shadows. I can print this at 16" x 24" on canvas with excellent results.

I shot this image at ISO 1000 and f/6.3 to get a shutter speed of 1/5000. I often use ISO 640 to eliminate more noise, but I have to have good light to keep the SS up above 1/1250 to stop wings.

Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)

Larry Jordan

D800E, D500, 14-24, 16-35, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 80-400mm AF-S, 500mm AF-S II

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http://larryjordan.smugmug.com/

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5701 posts

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#17. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 16

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Wed 18-Sep-13 01:47 PM

>The D800e and 200-400mm
>capture so much information that you can crop significantly
>and still get excellent details. And, as you can see with the
>final cropped images, you can bring out dark shadows. I can
>print this at 16" x 24" on canvas with excellent
>results.

I had to really stare at that to convince myself it was the same image. Shows the power of post processing well.

Linwood

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#18. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 11

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Wed 18-Sep-13 02:12 PM

Hi Dave,
I have seen your BIF'S and you certainly have some fine ones. I expect bright sun so planning to start with M 1/2000 f5.6 (to get a little more DOF on my 200-400 F4) ISO 640, Will not use Spot if conditions change.

Others have suggested 9 point AF-C. I only seem to have option of 11 point or 51 point.
Most comments on 3D are not too positive, but I only seem to have option of AF_C 3D or AF-S
I have searched for a way to turn off 3D, but do not see one.
Care to give me suggestions for setting up AF?

Thanks much,
Roger

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5701 posts

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#19. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 18

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Wed 18-Sep-13 02:19 PM | edited Wed 18-Sep-13 02:21 PM by Ferguson



>Press in on the AF switch button, and rotate the subcommand
>(front wheel), and you will see it range through 3D, 51,
>21, 9, S (one).

Incidentally, use care as rotating the back wheel changes from AF-C to AF-S and back, so if you accidentally hit it, you suddenly end up in non-continuous focus. Been there, done that, took a while to realize what was happening.

I love the new way this is set (the button as opposed to a menu option), but it takes a couple times to get use to it.


Linwood

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#20. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 2

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Wed 18-Sep-13 02:21 PM

I am going to go with the 200-400 with a small ball head on a collapsed monopod stuck in to a "cup' on my ThinkTank Belt.
I am afraid the monopod will be frowned upon if extended. I am counting on my belly to absorb the vibrations.

Thanks for your advice --I think the 200-400 is the best idea.

Cheers,
Roger

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#21. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 19

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Wed 18-Sep-13 02:40 PM

Hi Linwood,

>Press in on the AF switch button, and rotate the subcommand
>(front wheel), and you will see it range through 3D, 51,
>21, 9, S (one).

I was turning the Command Dial, and since it was making a change, I did not consider using Sub-Command.

I have now chosen 9 point AF-C

I will now practice. I have chosen AF ON button on back of camera. I like this concept, but not sure it will be as fast as depressing shutter part way without some practice.

Thank you!
Roger

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#22. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 21

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Wed 18-Sep-13 02:45 PM


>I will now practice. I have chosen AF ON button on back of
>camera. I like this concept, but not sure it will be as fast
>as depressing shutter part way without some practice.

I've been trying to develop that habit for months with only moderate success, I still periodically revert and set back to the shutter again when I feel like I'm just not getting it. I definitely see how it is better to do it, but for me the learning curve has been very long. Unless you are a much faster learner, I wouldn't start on that curve on your trip.

Linwood

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rogerh666

Inverness, US
423 posts

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#23. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 16

rogerh666 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2012
Wed 18-Sep-13 03:37 PM

Hi Larry,
WOW--That is the finest looking Willet I have ever seen. ISO 1000 amazing. Seeing these two images is inspiring. I would be very interested in seeing the original crop. Once I am able to get photos near the quality of your original crop, I can then work on CS6. So much to learn.

Thanks for showing these!

Regards,
Roger

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ljordan316

Inverness, US
830 posts

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#24. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 21

ljordan316 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2010
Wed 18-Sep-13 04:32 PM

I use AF On for landscapes where I want to do hyperfocal distance before tripping the shutter. I use the shutter button for focus when shooting birds because I want to minimize finger movements that could cause me to get off target. If I am using the BushHawk, I have no choice but to use the shutter button for focus because that activates the remote release button.

Larry Jordan

D800E, D500, 14-24, 16-35, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 80-400mm AF-S, 500mm AF-S II

Website:
http://larryjordan.smugmug.com/

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ljordan316

Inverness, US
830 posts

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#25. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 23

ljordan316 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2010
Wed 18-Sep-13 04:36 PM

I first do CS6 ACR, then pass the image to Photoshop without cropping. If I am going to do substantial cropping, I may do that first, then continue with noise reduction and Nik processing. If the bird is standing around and I will be doing little cropping, I may wait until I am almost finished.

Larry Jordan

D800E, D500, 14-24, 16-35, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 80-400mm AF-S, 500mm AF-S II

Website:
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mborn1

Taunton, US
222 posts

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#26. "RE: Boat bird trip settings" | In response to Reply # 0

mborn1 Gold Member Nikonian since 20th Nov 2008
Thu 19-Sep-13 10:36 AM

I use the same set-up as you do but also have a polarizer on the lens to cut down glare and shoot in S mode at 1/1250 sec and auto ISO

Myer
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