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D800 E not for studio?

aztwang

Avondale, US
408 posts

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aztwang Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2009
Fri 12-Jul-13 06:05 AM

Am I to understand correctly according to Thom Hogans new book and from other sources that if you are going to shoot frequently at F8 and up that diffraction is going to be an issue with the 800E? So in studio where my sweet spot is usually F9-F11, I need to go with the D800?
If this is correct then how is the D800 an acclaimed Landscape camera? Im sure I missed something along the way so somebody straighten me out!

**Also how many of ya'll shoot portraiture with a 800E?**

Thanks!


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RECONLEY

Marietta, US
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#1. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

RECONLEY Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Jun 2012
Fri 12-Jul-13 10:06 AM | edited Fri 12-Jul-13 10:08 AM by RECONLEY

There is a considerable difference between when diffraction begins to show itself, when viewed at 100%, and when it harms an image. You have to make that call yourself.

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blw

Richmond, US
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#2. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Fri 12-Jul-13 10:17 AM

All he's saying is that the D800e isn't going to be any better than the D800 once diffraction sets in. The E advantage is only accessible when it's not lost to diffraction. If you shoot some landscapes or portraits with either of them, you'll get great results, as long as you do your part well.

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ajdooley

Waterloo, US
3321 posts

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#3. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

ajdooley Gold Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006
Fri 12-Jul-13 10:25 AM | edited Fri 12-Jul-13 10:32 AM by ajdooley

Obviously diffraction is a negative function of smaller f/stops. But Depth of Field is a function as well. Depth of Field is an obvious matter that has always existed and must be taken into consideration when taking pictures. We either choose to have a subject sharp or we want to render it as "bokeh." Diffraction I think -- my opinion only -- is a largely overblown concern and plays far less of a role in taking pictures than it does in worrying about it.

Diffraction is a lens design and production issue and a function of optical science. It is what it is. If it is the sole determinant of a camera choice, that choice ignores newer focusing capabilities, better shadow and highlight detail retention and obviously, higher resolution.

My choice? I ignore it. BTW, for landscape photography, unsteady air and haze are FAR larger matters than diffraction.

If diffraction is the only concern -- you may want to explore returning to an 8x10 view camera. But before you do, check out the thread here elsewhere comparing the D800/800E to medium format cameras.

Thom is obviously more articulate than I will ever be -- but he is writing to be read and to earn money. I think he sometimes points out the red herring in an otherwise pristine pond just to do what he does.

Alan
Waterloo, IL, USA
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Craig Bennett

Rio Rancho, US
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#4. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 3

Craig Bennett Registered since 28th Oct 2012
Fri 12-Jul-13 01:20 PM

> Diffraction I think -- my opinion only --
>is a largely overblown concern and plays far less of a role in
>taking pictures than it does in worrying about it.

I fully agree. The D800e is a great studio camera as is the D800 as well as IMO a great all around performer.

Regards,
Craig

Leonard62

Pa, US
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#5. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 4

Leonard62 Gold Member Awarded for excellent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community, especially of Nikkor Lenses Writer Ribbon awarded for his contributions to the Nikonians Resources articles library Nikonian since 15th Mar 2009
Fri 12-Jul-13 04:21 PM

I agree with Alan and Craig as well. I think it's over blown and really isn't even visible when looking at normal sized prints shot at f22 and compared to f5.6 prints. Here's a little test i just shot.

I'm comparing 100% enlargements from f5.6 to f11 to f22 from left to right.

I used an AF 105mm f2.8 Micro on my D800. I was at 10 feet from the subject and used flash from a SB800 synced at 1/250 sec. ISO was 400. There was no post processing of any of the images, not even down sampling.

Click on image to view larger version


I can see a slight softening of the image shot at f22, but only at the 100% cropped image. I don't see any softening at f11 and would consider this excellent performance in a studio setting.

Len




Attachment#1 (jpg file)

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km6xz

St Petersburg, RU
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#6. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009
Fri 12-Jul-13 04:37 PM

If you only shoot in the studio and at f/9 or smaller get the non-e and save $300 towards another strobe because the will perform identically. Diffraction is a fact of life whenever a wave passes through an aperture, whether light or ocean waves. It has only two components, wavelength and aperture size in relationship to detector size. It occurs regardless of lens. It occurs with pin hole cameras that do not have any lens.
What will it do to your images? Not very much. Few details one the scale of diffraction amplitudes are visible on human perception scales. If you are printing 200% crops then you will see it but no other camera would produce as much detail of the same image features.
If you are shooting a wider variety of apertures get the D800e. I got the D800 solely because in the early days of its release I was lucky to find any D800. All the initial talk of moire patterns turned out to be much ado about nothing. Either is the best imagining machines on the planet.
Stan
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avisys

Placitas, US
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#7. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 5

avisys Basic Member
Fri 12-Jul-13 07:43 PM

>I can see a slight softening of the image shot at f22, but
>only at the 100% cropped image. I don't see any softening at
>f11 and would consider this excellent performance in a studio
>setting.

Yeah, but where's your image of a brick wall!!??

AviSys

avisys

Placitas, US
482 posts

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#8. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

avisys Basic Member
Fri 12-Jul-13 07:49 PM

I chose the 800 vs. the 800e because I take a lot of photos of small birds with tightly repeating feather plumage. I was concerned with moire' in that case.

I would think that a studio shooter, who deals with a lot of apparel, with busy and complex weaves, might have the same concern . . . in spades.

However, we see few examples of that issue. Maybe the fine resolution of the D800e makes the issue moot?



AviSys

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
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#9. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Fri 12-Jul-13 07:55 PM

Excellent comments here - especially from Alan and Len.

Macro specialist Mike Moats has demonstrated the same facts about diffraction vs. DOF. With macro subjects and other situations where you have a tiny DOF and want more, DOF trumps diffraction. You can easily shoot at f/22 or even f/32 if the situation warrants. Yes there is an impact of diffraction - but DOF trumps diffraction.

Now a related issue with the FX cameras is while diffraction shows up at apertures a stop or so lower, you may need more DOF. FX needs about another stop compared to DX. And the high resolution of the D800/D800E means when you view an image at 100% you may see softness in slightly out of focus areas that were not previously observed.

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icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

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#10. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Fri 12-Jul-13 08:23 PM

For studio work, I would save the few hundred dollars and get the none-E. Here is a link from a site that the reviewer also said to pick the none-E for studio work as the E showed more signs of moire':

http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/D800AA/D800AAFilter.html

I've shot a few families family photos and have seen moire' in many of my shots with my D800E. Most was just false color and is fixable. If I buy another D800 as a back up body, it will be the none E.

Chris

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aztwang

Avondale, US
408 posts

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#11. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 10

aztwang Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2009
Sat 13-Jul-13 03:51 AM

Great talk here and many thanks!!
Chris so you say, with conviction that your back up camera will be a D800. So If you were doing it all over again would you go with the D800? Roughly, what percentage of studio shots are you realizing false color?
Another thing that baffles me is there is so much discusion with the D800e and false color and moire' yet MF which has been a leader in fashion and glamour do not have an AA filter and yet has been the " Standard" in this type of shooting. Am I missing something here???




>For studio work, I would save the few hundred dollars and get
>the none-E. Here is a link from a site that the reviewer also
>said to pick the none-E for studio work as the E showed more
>signs of moire':
>
>http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/D800AA/D800AAFilter.html
>
>I've shot a few families family photos and have seen moire' in
>many of my shots with my D800E. Most was just false color and
>is fixable. If I buy another D800 as a back up body, it will
>be the none E.
>
>Chris


.

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icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

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#12. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 11

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Sat 13-Jul-13 06:56 AM

I haven't shot anything in a studio so I'm not sure how this would effect moire' with studio lighting. Also in previous threads, it was mentioned that the software used for post can effect how apparent moire' is in a given shot.

Here is an example of moire' one of the shots i have:


Click on image to view larger version



I was able to fix it in LR with brushing in corrections.

Back to your questions, I feel I still would have wanted the E version if I had purchased the None-E version from the beginning. But I think it should have went the other way around, buy the none-E version first then decide if it produces sharp enough images for a given job.

Now I think MF guys do see moire' but just don't talk/make a big deal about it as it comes with the territory so to speak. With such large sensors, MF pixels are still going to be larger then many DSLR sensors, so the very fine details are going to be rendered differently compared to very densely packed sensors as used in the D800(E)/D7000/D7100 etc... So that may effect things as well. Also, with MF having to stop down further for more DOF, this will lead to some diffraction and does reduce chances of moire'. If you look up what causes moire', it is caused by when very fine detail patterns line up with the bayer filter/pixels of the image sensor and will cause false patterns and/or color due to current CMOS sensor design that Nikon/Canon use. So with MF and the pixels being bigger, more data can be collected at each pixel and less chances of moire'.

I think Fuji's X-Trans sensor design maybe step in the right direction or maybe even Sigma's foveon sensor design, which seems to do very well at lower iso values, will be the "fix" to any moire' issues with digital cameras.

Just my 2 cents of things. If anything I stated is not accurate to what anyone else knows or has seen, let me know. This info is from what I've read and seen personally.

Chris
Attachment#1 (jpg file)

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walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
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#13. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 11

walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Master Ribbon awarded as a member who has gone beyond technical knowledge to show mastery of the art and science of photography   Donor Ribbon awarded for his most generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 05th May 2002
Sat 13-Jul-13 09:54 AM

Keep in mind that medium format cameras, which most would consider are well-suited to a studio environment and are frequently used for fashion photography, don't have AA filters. As others have mentioned, either camera will work well in general.

Rick Walker

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piowoc

St. Louis, US
181 posts

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#14. "RE: D800 E not for studio?" | In response to Reply # 0

piowoc Registered since 06th Aug 2007
Mon 15-Jul-13 05:24 PM

Hi guys,

it looks like there is a consensus that using D800E for studio work does not necessarily bring any substantial gains in quality over what D800 can delicer, but it's definitely more costly.

I know it's a bit off-topic, but what AF settings do you normally use when shooting D800/D800E in the studio environment?

Thanks!
Regards,
Peter

G