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D800 sensor purple fringe

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:57 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 04:44 PM by dagoldst

My brother brought his D800 along to a bar to photograph a jazz trio. The light was LOW in this place, so we wound up shooting just about all the images we took at Hi-2.

All the images look quite similar to these two examples - I have not tried to reduce the purple for this post - these are pretty much straight RAW files converted to jpg with LR5. Opinions?

Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

agitater

Toronto, CA
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#1. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:26 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 03:27 PM by agitater

What CA? I can't see any in either photo. There's all sorts of junk going on in that lousy light, not to mention an impressive high dynamic range performance when looking through the slats in the window blinds, but I don't see any CA. Maybe it's just me?

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GiantTristan

Stamford, US
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#2. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

GiantTristan Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Jan 2006
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:29 PM

Maybe adjusting the WB would help.

Tristan

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agitater

Toronto, CA
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#3. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 2

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:35 PM

>Maybe adjusting the WB would help.

Right you are . . . but where's the CA? I still can't see it. Help.

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Howard Carson

mklass

Tacoma, US
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#4. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 3

mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:42 PM

Howard,

You can't see the CA because you are in CA! (Sorry, bad joke, but I couldn't resist.)

I don't see it either, perhaps is got eliminated in downsizing to forum size. A 100% crop within the forum file size limit might show it.

Mick
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audiophileman2002

Clarksville, US
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#5. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 4

audiophileman2002 Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Mar 2013
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:49 PM

Hey guys,
There's purple alright but not CA. Look at the upper right hand corner and the lower right hand corner below the tom tom drum.
Need to adjust WB, yes.

Rod

ajdooley

Waterloo, US
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#6. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

ajdooley Gold Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006
Fri 05-Jul-13 03:51 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 04:07 PM by ajdooley

All - I think David's discussing the purple that is most evident at the bottom of each of the two images. I believe it is just a matter of noise in the darker regions of the image. It also appears that the wall to the drummer's left may be painted purple, and even though it is rather dark, it may be serving as a bounce light that is also purple. I agree that the top image certainly demonstrates a remarkable dynamic range between the indoor scene and the outdoor area seen through the blinds. I suspect that jacking the exposure up and dropping the WB may correct a lot of what's going on here. Other than that, this is pretty incredible noise control. Maybe just convert the images to B&W?

I looked at the top image in CS6's RAW converter and made a few changes -- WB, brightness, tone, etc., and saved them. The purple is now just as, or more evident, but the other tones are better (I think -- but maybe not. It's DARK in there!).

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)

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agitater

Toronto, CA
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#7. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 6

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 05:25 PM

Now I see the purple, but it's absolutely not CA or purple fringing. In that dimly lit room, with daylight coming in through the window and mixing with yellow overhead light and maybe even some lamps on the tables, the result is severe colour casts and swaths of junk. But it's not CA.

A custom white balance is the only solutionn in that room, on the spot using a grey card/cloth or a white napkin, before taking any shots. It's way more trouble than it's worth to try and fix shots like this in post, and never fully fixable no matter who's wielding the pp software.

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Howard Carson

icslowmo

Surprise, US
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#8. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 05:26 PM

The purple at the boarders of the frame is from what is called amp noise in the camera. My D800E will show the same thing. One thing I found was that in LR, if you turn all NR off the purple goes away, but you get much more noise.... So maybe try a different NR software to see if that helps....

Chris

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agitater

Toronto, CA
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#9. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 5

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 05:28 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 05:29 PM by agitater

Right you are. The OP used the word purple, so I immediately started looking for fringing/CA. My mistake I think. It's a severe colour cast and some other junk from clashing lighting and maybe even some lens flare from overhead lights or table lamps shining.

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Howard Carson

agitater

Toronto, CA
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#10. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 4

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 05:31 PM

>You can't see the CA because you are in CA! (Sorry, bad joke,
>but I couldn't resist.)

You're right. I'm surrounded by CA, but it's not purple.

>I don't see it either, perhaps is got eliminated in downsizing
>to forum size. A 100% crop within the forum file size limit
>might show it.

I assumed CA, but all the OP stated was "purple." He never actually stated fringing/CA.

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FineArtSnaps

Leesburg, US
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#11. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 8

FineArtSnaps Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jun 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:08 PM | edited Sat 06-Jul-13 01:47 PM by FineArtSnaps

The only possible fix for this kind of disaster is conversion to B&W. Remember B&W? We used to shoot it all the time. It's marvelous stuff.

Russ Lewis
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briantilley

Paignton, UK
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#12. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 10

briantilley Gold Member Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:22 PM

>I assumed CA, but all the OP stated was "purple." He
>never actually stated fringing/CA.

The original post title was "D800 sensor purple fringe". I think your reaction was understandable, Howard

Brian
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dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#13. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 1

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:26 PM

>What CA? I can't see any in either photo. There's
>all sorts of junk going on in that lousy light, not to mention
>an impressive high dynamic range performance when looking
>through the slats in the window blinds, but I don't see any
>CA. Maybe it's just me?
>
>

I never said CA, Howard. I think it is a form of blooming going on with the sensor. BTW, my D600 images had none of this and look cleaner at the same ISO.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#14. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 8

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:28 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 06:40 PM by dagoldst

>The purple at the boarders of the frame is from what is
>called amp noise in the camera. My D800E will show the same
>thing. One thing I found was that in LR, if you turn all NR
>off the purple goes away, but you get much more noise.... So
>maybe try a different NR software to see if that helps....
>
>Chris

It's not LR that is causing this. My D600 at the same ISO, same room, was fine. I do agree, I think it is amp noise, but I was surprised to see it so bad at such short shutter speeds in the D800.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#15. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 2

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:28 PM

Not a WB issue.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#16. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 7

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:34 PM



>In that dimly lit room, with daylight coming in...

Actually, it's the middle of the night. All the exterior lighting is incandescent and streetlights.

Here is another example taken at the bar on the far side of the room. Not much of a shot, but shows the problem.

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

icslowmo

Surprise, US
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#17. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 14

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:40 PM

Try turning color NR off in LR and export and post to show the difference.... Promise it'll make a difference. Now compared to the D600, that sensor used has said to have less noticeable amp noise from it, hence the reason for better low light performance.

Chris

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agitater

Toronto, CA
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#18. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 16

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 06:47 PM

>Actually, it's the middle of the night. All the exterior
>lighting is incandescent and streetlights.

Right . . . but it's still coming through the window blinds in shafts next to the drummer and adding more soup to the already difficult and dim lighting.

>Here is another example taken at the bar on the far side of
>the room. Not much of a shot, but shows the problem.

It sure does, and probably makes the best possible case for picking shooting position, doing a custom white balance, then firing away. Change the shooting position, then take another 15 seconds or so to do a new custom white balance, then fire away. The relatively few seconds it takes photographers to do a custom white balance in these sorts of shooting conditions will save literally hours of labour in post.

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dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#19. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 18

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 07:00 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 07:20 PM by dagoldst

Howard,

IMO, this is not a WB issue. And I must point out, my D600 does NOT do this while set to the same ISO and WB and even my venerable D200 does a better job at it's max ISO, (I have shot this room several times before without issue).

Back to my point. Look at the shots. The center of the images has fine WB. The edges, however, are purpleish, (like I say, I think this is sensor amp noise). It appears something is going on with the sensor at this high ISO and low light. I have shots from the lobby of the hotel where you can see the purple color as well, and it was a much more brightly lit environment.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#20. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 12

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Fri 05-Jul-13 07:17 PM | edited Fri 05-Jul-13 07:21 PM by dagoldst

>The original post title was "D800 sensor purple
>fringe".

Brian, Howard - I agree, while I did not say lens purple fringing, it could be construed that I was talking about CA, so for any confusion, my apologies.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

agitater

Toronto, CA
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#21. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 19

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Fri 05-Jul-13 08:26 PM

>IMO, this is not a WB issue. And I must point out, my D600
>does NOT do this while set to the same ISO and WB and even my
>venerable D200 does a better job at it's max ISO, (I have shot
>this room several times before without issue).

I get what you're saying. But I think that no two camera angles on different nights in the same room are ever the same. If there's a WB problem - which I do see - combined with small, peripheral light sources that are hitting the lens at an odd angle, you get the sort of colour wash you're seeing is different parts of the shot. That's not an unusual problem in a room with so many point sources of light scattered everywhere. Anyhow, the way you shoot the room and the way someone else shoots the room are two very different things. I won't bet real money on it, but I'd guess that if someone had made the exact same shot using a D600, D800 and D200 in that room in the exact same spot at the exact same time using the exact same lens they'd have gotten the same colour haze (um, that is if I'm right about it in the first place). If it's colour haze, that shoots my custom WB recommendation down.

>Back to my point. Look at the shots. The center of the
>images has fine WB. The edges, however, are purpleish, (like
>I say, I think this is sensor amp noise).

I guess it could be sensor amp noise, because such noise tends to appear primarily in the blue channel. But it's nothing like amp noise I've seen before, and a lot more like colour haze induced by indirect light sources. Could be a sensitive lighting situation for the particular lens + body combination. Could be the photographer got himself into haze trouble because of his shooting position. I just don't think it's amp noise.

Then again, that 36mp sensor can be tasked quite heavily in such terrible lighting conditions, especially if it was heating up from high-speed shooting. Might not be a reasonable use of the D800. Then again, I've seen some excellent D800 shots in relatively dim club lighting, but in those shots the main light source on the performer was isolated and there weren't any competing light sources hitting the lens.

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avisys

Placitas, US
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#22. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

avisys Basic Member
Fri 05-Jul-13 09:10 PM

To me, it sure looks like serious underexposure and the results of same. The lower left corner of the last posted image, and the drummer's shirt in the original image, suggests to me that it's not a WB problem. And there is certainly no "fringe" going on.

Surprisingly, to me it looks like exactly what you'd get from seriously underexposed Ektachrome.

AviSys

danshep

Olympia, US
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#23. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 14

danshep Gold Member Charter Member
Sat 06-Jul-13 12:32 AM


Sorry, no amp noise. The drums appear not to have an amplifier. 8o}



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icslowmo

Surprise, US
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#24. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 23

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Sat 06-Jul-13 02:01 AM | edited Sat 06-Jul-13 02:41 AM by icslowmo

LOL nice Dan.

Anyways to show my point with LR NR and how it does effect the purple boarder I did a quick test in my computer room to show what's going on. Here are some images with and with out LR NR, I used default values when on (25/50):

D800E 24-70mm f/2.8 @ 70mm f/4 1/250th iso 25,600 for both shots in manual mode. WB adjusted to the same settings.

Whole frame with no NR at OFF:


Click on image to view larger version



Whole frame with default LR NR at ON:


Click on image to view larger version



Crop from image with NO NR:


Click on image to view larger version



Crop with default LR NR:


Click on image to view larger version



As you can see LR leaves more of a purple tint in the black box area, think shadows or dark parts of the frame.

Now to test what a few were saying that under exposure can case this to be worse, I took another shot at a little slower of a shutter speed, all other settings the same:

D800E 24-70mm f/2.8 @ 70mm f/4 1/160th iso 25,600 for this shot in manual mode. WB adjusted to the same as prev. image:

Exposure pulled down by 1/3 a stop in LR No NR applied:


Click on image to view larger version



Now with color NR at 20/100 and luminance at 10/50/0:


Click on image to view larger version



So it seems if you have to use the higher iso's, best to over expose a little and pull back in post as it does help.

Chris
Attachment#1 (jpg file)
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Attachment#6 (jpg file)

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kj_fi

Vantaa, FI
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#25. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 22

kj_fi Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Jul 2007
Sat 06-Jul-13 06:39 AM

Hi,

what about this theory: the lower part of the image has more shadow since lights are usually in the ceiling. The color noise (i.e. blue and red pixels = purple) show more clearly in darker parts of the image.

I think there are different amount of blue, red and green pixels in a sensor and this could cause the noise to have a certain average color (i.e., not white).

Kari

Flikkerlig

SA
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#26. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

Flikkerlig Registered since 07th Jul 2013
Sun 07-Jul-13 10:49 AM

Hi,

Im new here. This is just a 'shot in the dark' so excuse the pun. Was your active D-lightning on, and if it was on what was the setting (Low, normal, high etc.). Active D-Lightning may cause all sorts of weird stuff at high (and as in your case exceptionally high) settings.

Surge75

CA
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#27. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 26

Surge75 Registered since 08th Jul 2013
Mon 08-Jul-13 02:26 AM

Also, why not try in camera jpeg output?
Let the camera process the RAW...

Hans_S

Stockholm, SE
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#28. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

Hans_S Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2013
Mon 08-Jul-13 10:44 AM

My experience from the D800 and before that from a D200 is that at high ISO combined with incandescent light or even worse, stage lighting with down-regulated incandescent lamps that are even more red-yellowish, the extra amplification of the blue channel needed to get a decent white balance makes the blue channel very noisy. I find that this is what limits the ISO setting. On the D200 the limit was 1600 but on the D800 this problem sets in somewhere between 6400 and 12800, so I am not surprised to see it at 25000.

The noise and dark signal from the detector is temperature dependent and could also vary over the image area. This could perhaps explain why it is predominately at the lower edge in the example.

One way to fix it in the image using photoshop or similar is to apply some color noise reduction and then adjust the black point of the blue channel a little bit so that a completely black area is really black. Then you have to compensate again by adjusting the the gain in the blue because the first adjustment makes the picture look very yellowish. With my D200 I had to do this often, but the D800 i normally work at 6400 and then it is not needed.

ajdooley

Waterloo, US
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#29. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

ajdooley Gold Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006
Mon 08-Jul-13 11:17 AM

David -- What an interesting dialog you precipitated here! You brought the following to the discussion: extremely high ISO; extremely low level lighting and problems introduced by stage lighting, which can be a whole world of weirdness; walls of an unknown color; all of which created a challenge we would not even have been able to begin to examine in the days of film. That's my take-away here.

We are able to do things today which we were unable to accomplish in "the old days" and it's fun. The ensuing discussion has been very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks!

Alan
Waterloo, IL, USA
www.proimagingmidamerica.com

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dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#30. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Mon 08-Jul-13 09:41 PM

Another sample image my brother took with his D800 from the same evening of the other shots in the bar. This one was taken in the lobby of the hotel where the jazz trio was playing. It is far better lit, there are no WB issues, and the purple is clearly visible in the corners of the image whether NR is on or off. EXIF is attached.

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

Leonard62

Pa, US
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#31. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 30

Leonard62 Gold Member Awarded for excellent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community, especially of Nikkor Lenses Writer Ribbon awarded for his contributions to the Nikonians Resources articles library Nikonian since 15th Mar 2009
Mon 08-Jul-13 10:47 PM

I've been trying to duplicate the results your brother is getting, with my D800. I have the same lens, shooting raw, Auto WB and H2.0 ISO. My lighting is a 4 bulb chandelier where I can control the tungsten lighting intensity. My shutter speed/aperture is the same as your photo. I don't have LR so I use CS6. I can't get the purple corners your photo shows. It appears that any dark area in your photo shows purple and that includes the lens vignetting darkening in the upper corners. My photo has the same corner darkening but there is no hint of purple. I have no idea where the problem is with your brother's D800. How are the blacks at the lower ISO settings like 1600?

Len

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agitater

Toronto, CA
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#32. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 30

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 08-Jul-13 11:35 PM

Is there some expectation that ISO 20,000 using a very average zoom lens is going to produce high quality images? If so, I think it's a fully unrealistic expectation. I think the sample HI 2.0 images represent exactly what can typically be expected when even such an advanced sensor is pushed so hard. The image is soft, it's shot at an absurdly high ISO, the lens is average at best, and vignetting is noticeable.

I think there are very slight variations in sensors. I think the sensor in the D800 used to make these snapshots is working perfectly well. I'd like to see some well composed, interesting subjects shot with the same camera set somewhere south of ISO 6400 and using an optically better lens than the old 24-120 f/3.5-5.6. If those shots show purple haze I'd be worried, but I doubt they will.

I think the camera is working as designed.

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dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#33. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 32

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Mon 08-Jul-13 11:47 PM

>Is there some expectation that ISO 20,000 using a very
>average zoom lens is going to produce high quality images?

I lent my brother my 24-120mm that night. Sorry you don't like my choice of lenses.

And... Howard... you need to back off with the attitude and insulting tone in this thread. I mean it.

I never talk to you like this, and you are making a big mistake with this attitude with me in this post and your previous ones in this thread. I thought you were an ok guy, but so far, you are disproving that with your over the top, rude and inaccurate comments.

When you want to behave nice, we can talk about what is an obvious issue with AMP NOISE, not soft lenses or post processing or white balance.


David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#34. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 31

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Mon 08-Jul-13 11:53 PM

Len,

At lower ISO, I don't see this issue. It seems, that with this particular camera, it manifest itself above standard ISO 6400 and gets more noticeable as ISO settings approaches maximum.

I don't have the camera now to conduct tests, it is with my brother in London.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

agitater

Toronto, CA
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#35. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 33

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Tue 09-Jul-13 12:23 AM

>And... Howard... you need to back off with the attitude and
>insulting tone in this thread. I mean it.

I apologize David . . . I think. But if expressing the opinion that the camera is being pushed to the thin edge of its usability seems insulting to you then I think you've lost perspective. There's nothing inappropriate about the language I used.

Amp noise occurs when a camera sensor is pushed to its limits. At ISO 20,000, that's where you're at with the D800 no matter what the spec sheet says. I missed my guess about WB and so on - no doubt about it. Anyway, there was nothing insulting in my posts.

I think it's somewhat unproductive to analyze ISO-stressed snapshots, and certainly a waste of time IMO to spend any more than a few moments on them in post (unless there's something important in the shot). It's nothing more than my opinion, so ignore it entirely if you prefer. I really didn't intend to wind you up.

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dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#36. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 35

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Tue 09-Jul-13 12:44 AM


>I apologize David . . . I think.

Howard, let's just call it a disagreement.

>But if expressing the opinion
>that the camera is being pushed to the thin edge of its
>usability seems insulting to you then I think you've lost
>perspective.

I don't mind your opinion, believe me, and the only thing I was getting at was something that surprised ME. I did not expect the D800 to show this sort of minor issue. And I do consider it minor, but something interesting when it comes to sensor performance. Believe me, I have shot far less capable cameras!

>
>I think it's somewhat unproductive to analyze ISO-stressed
>snapshots, and certainly a waste of time IMO to spend any more
>than a few moments on them in post (unless there's something
>important in the shot).

I tend to agree, this post was meant, since the beginning, to be a nitpicky, tech-nerdy post, not a condemnation of the D800.

At any rate, thanks for the quick reply and a clarification of your perspective. I did take your comments as adversarial, and I apologize to you.

With regards,

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

agitater

Toronto, CA
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#37. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 36

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Tue 09-Jul-13 02:19 AM

>>I think it's somewhat unproductive to analyze
>ISO-stressed
>>snapshots, and certainly a waste of time IMO to spend any
>more
>>than a few moments on them in post (unless there's
>something
>>important in the shot).
>
>I tend to agree, this post was meant, since the beginning, to
>be a nitpicky, tech-nerdy post, not a condemnation of the
>D800.

I don't think anything you've posted is being read as a condemnation of the D800 at all. It just all read to me exactly as you put it - a tech analysis. What I'm really nattering about, I think, is that the sample photos showing areas of concern are throwaway snapshots. Give me a good tech analysis any day at all, but I think I'm pushing to spend our collective Nikonians time on the technical analysis of some photos worth salvaging in the first place. That sounds a bit harsh, I know.

>At any rate, thanks for the quick reply and a clarification of
>your perspective. I did take your comments as adversarial,
>and I apologize to you.

Thanks. No worries and forget about it.

We should start a thread about the specific range of circumstances in which ISO limit/sensor-stressing is actually worthwhile in terms of notable photographic results. I'd love to see someone make a really great composition shot at ISO 20,000 or 25,000 that is good enough to make us ignore any visible colour casts and noise and just appreciate the photo. And maybe that's a hint at a shooting project for me this coming weekend? I just wish I didn't hate tripods so much.

How about a forum on Nikonians dedicated strictly to ISO 12,800+ photography? Seriously. I mean all the top of the line Nikon bodies shoot way past any (so far) sane ISO. There have to be some Nikonians who are banging hard all night long on ultra-high ISO settings and I'd really like to see some of their best results.

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cbrandin

US
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#38. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 37

cbrandin Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Nov 2011
Tue 09-Jul-13 02:39 PM | edited Tue 09-Jul-13 02:46 PM by cbrandin

From time to time I have done image recovery work for forensic purposes. In cases where high ISO is used or details have to be recovered from very dark areas I have run into this type of problem many times. There is nothing unusual or unexpected with these images.

It looks like LR has attempted to compensate for vignetting (I'm guessing the lens profile option is set to auto). With high ISO, corrections for vignetting will result in edges looking milky. This is because dynamic range is so low at these ISO levels. Normally the difference in DR between the center of an image and the boosted edges is unnoticeable, but with very high ISO the difference becomes significant. I have found that in such cases you have to correct for vignetting by boosting exposure at the edges (the normal fix) plus you have to raise the contrast at the edges. In any case, vignetting is much harder to fix at high ISOs, and the difference at the edges is very visible even when corrected. Essentially, with vignetting correction, the edges are boosted an additional 1-3 stops. That's the equivalent to the edges being exposed at over ISO 200K, give or take, in your examples. DR is less than 5 EV at ISO 50K, at 200K the range is probably around 2 EV - which isn't much DR to work with. Shot and amp noise will be much more visible at the edges because actual image data is so restricted. Also, distortions in color and reduction of DR will be twice as bad for reds and blues because there are half as many red and blue pixels as green ones in the sensor.

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Hans_S

Stockholm, SE
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#39. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 38

Hans_S Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2013
Tue 09-Jul-13 04:04 PM

Yes, this is the obvious explanation to why the blue haze was at the edges. I have seen this also with lenses that vignette a lot like more extreme wideangle lenses.

lajolla

LaJolla, US
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#40. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 39

lajolla Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Nov 2005
Wed 10-Jul-13 07:27 PM

I assume everyone has updated their d800 firmware? there was a firmware update (D800 firmware A: 1.01 / B:1.02) in early April that may or may not address some of this threads white balance and color fringing issues:

With shooting at an image quality setting of TIFF (RGB) and an image size setting of Small, the right edge of images contained a purple line. This issue has been resolved.
In some rare cases, images recorded in JPEG format could not be opened by some software applications. This issue has been resolved.
In some very rare cases, colors would change with shooting when white balance was set to a specific color temperature, as with Preset manual or Choose color temp. This issue has been resolved.

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#41. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 37

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Thu 11-Jul-13 12:54 AM

>What I'm really nattering about, I think, is that the sample photos showing areas of concern are throwaway snapshots.

Howard,

Don't get me wrong, I am not fond of any of these images from the perspective of good photography. We had poor position and terrible lighting and were mostly just at this bar to listen to music. I would never have posted these images other than the edge phenomena caught my eye.

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

dagoldst

Little Rock, US
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#42. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 38

dagoldst Gold Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012
Thu 11-Jul-13 01:08 AM

>It looks like LR has attempted to compensate for vignetting (I'm guessing the lens profile option is set to auto)

I had not thought of that and I agree, the auto vignette feature is exacerbating the problem. So I took an image and processed it with the profile set to auto and vignetting set to zero. See results below. The second photo is with profile set to auto all the way.

Click on image to view larger version




Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)

David

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan

cbrandin

US
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#43. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 42

cbrandin Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Nov 2011
Thu 11-Jul-13 01:42 PM | edited Thu 11-Jul-13 02:34 PM by cbrandin

Another consideration is the camera's built in lens profiles - they also attempt to correct for vignetting. I don't think they do anything in raw, though.

I discovered something interesting about many raw converters - including Adobe's. It appears that parts of the raw converters (i.e. components of the software) come from the camera manufacturers, and in some cases these modules do some image corrections on their own - even if you turn all corrections off. DXO, on the other hand, appears to do everything themselves. I have a Canon S100 I use as my pocket camera. Pictures taken at the widest angle setting appear to have moderately high distortion when Adobe's lens correction is turned off. When processed with DXO with corrections turned off distortion and vignetting are so severe that significant portions of the image are black and the image is considerably wider angle and more distorted than it is with Adobe. This means that in some cases when you think image corrections are completely turned off, they may not be - that certainly is the case with the Canon S100.

Interestingly, with my S100 lens distortion is not symmetrical - vignetting and distortion are more severe on the left side of the image - which may be why they do some correction under the covers. With Adobe raw distortion and vignetting appear symmetrical when all corrections are turned off. Image files can contain lens distortion profile metadata - there is a standard way to do that. Maybe Canon calibrates each S100 camera - who knows? Strange but true

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Ray Gerke

winnipeg, CA
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#44. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 0

Ray Gerke Registered since 12th Sep 2004
Thu 11-Jul-13 04:25 PM | edited Thu 11-Jul-13 04:26 PM by Ray Gerke

Aren't we amazingly spoilt compared to cameras of 10 years ago! Gosh even 5 years ago!!
I can remember when I got my D100 I had trouble getting a photo of snow in broad daylight to not have a bluish tinge to it!!
Camera's now have amazing capabilities. That being said I dont use anything above ISO 6400 with my D800. If I can't shoot it at better than that I don't bother. Just me! Have to set some limits somewhere. But the D800 is amazing.
I wish there were more threads showing how amazing it is instead of what it limits are or are not!

Ray Gerke

D800, D5300, D2HS, D700 (sold), D7000(sold), CP520, CP510
Nikkor 24mm f/1.4, Nikkor 50mm f/1.4, Nikkor 58mm f/1.4, Nikkor 85mm f/1.4, Nikkor 14-24 F/2.8, Nikkor 80-200 f/2.8, Nikkor 24-120VR, Nikkor Micro 60mm f/2.8, Nikkor Micro 105mm f/2.8VR, Nikkor 10.5 DX
Sigma 30mm f/1.4, Sigma 150-500mm OS

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Craig Bennett

Rio Rancho, US
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#45. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 44

Craig Bennett Registered since 28th Oct 2012
Fri 12-Jul-13 01:49 PM

>Aren't we amazingly spoilt compared to cameras of 10 years
>ago! Gosh even 5 years ago!!
>I can remember when I got my D100 I had trouble getting a
>photo of snow in broad daylight to not have a bluish tinge to
>it!!
>Camera's now have amazing capabilities. That being said I
>dont use anything above ISO 6400 with my D800. If I can't
>shoot it at better than that I don't bother. Just me!
>Have to set some limits somewhere. But the D800 is
>amazing.
>I wish there were more threads showing how amazing it is
>instead of what it limits are or are not!

LOL, it is easy to forget. I am constantly amazed at the quality of image and ease of use I get from my D800e. My first real digital was the Fuji S2Pro, than the Nikon D1x, D2x, and D90. I still like the images from them. I never shot higher than 400 ISO with D1x and 800 with the D2x. Man, we have come a long way. I now use 3200 ISO routinely with the D800e.

We are spoiled for sure!

I find anything over 6400 ISO is not acceptable on my D800e's. Nikon feels the same, that is why they do not endorse. We are asking a lot out of the sensor and it's electronics for a 36MP camera.

The D600 is considered a better high ISO camera, as is D3s and D4.

Ray Gerke

winnipeg, CA
633 posts

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#46. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 45

Ray Gerke Registered since 12th Sep 2004
Fri 12-Jul-13 03:36 PM

Yep I agree.

I started a thread here years ago on how amazing the D2Hs was and had hundreds of responses (was a huge thread) as we were all celebrating how great the camera was and were showing off its abilities. It was amazing!
But we have come a long way! I am sure then next generation of cameras will be even more amazing but lets celebrate the here and now.

Ray Gerke

D800, D5300, D2HS, D700 (sold), D7000(sold), CP520, CP510
Nikkor 24mm f/1.4, Nikkor 50mm f/1.4, Nikkor 58mm f/1.4, Nikkor 85mm f/1.4, Nikkor 14-24 F/2.8, Nikkor 80-200 f/2.8, Nikkor 24-120VR, Nikkor Micro 60mm f/2.8, Nikkor Micro 105mm f/2.8VR, Nikkor 10.5 DX
Sigma 30mm f/1.4, Sigma 150-500mm OS

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cbrandin

US
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#47. "RE: D800 sensor purple fringe" | In response to Reply # 44

cbrandin Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Nov 2011
Fri 12-Jul-13 03:45 PM | edited Fri 12-Jul-13 03:56 PM by cbrandin

Boy you've got that right! In film days ISO 50,000 film was unthinkable. Consider this quote from the Wiki article on film speed:

"Some high-speed black-and-white films, such as Ilford Delta 3200 and Kodak T-MAX P3200, are marketed with film speeds in excess of their true ISO speed as determined using the ISO testing method. For example, the Ilford product is actually an ISO 1000 film, according to its data sheet. The manufacturers do not indicate that the 3200 number is an ISO rating on their packaging. Kodak and Fuji also marketed E6 films designed for pushing (hence the "P" prefix), such as Ektachrome P800/1600 and Fujichrome P1600, both with a base speed of ISO 400."

That means that the fastest B&W film commonly available was actually pushed ISO 1000 film, and the fastest commonly available color film was actually pushed ISO 400 film. I've used all these fast films - and frankly, they didn't look very good. The D800 produces excellent results at ISO 1600, and quite acceptable results at ISO 6400 - much, much better that any film I've used at even 1/4th the speed.

In the early days of film speeds were around ISO 12-32. Later, good ISO 400 films appeared because of technological advances. Technology marches forward and people remain interested in pushing boundaries.

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G