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A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots....

InsaneO

Encino, US
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InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Sat 19-Jan-13 04:31 AM

I have a little problem which I ignore because it is just an inconvenience.
Every 10 shots or so I get very slow writing speed only because there is a SD card in the second slot. I am NOT writing to this card but it is there just in case I forget CF cards at home (happened before).
So, at CES I talked to Nikon rep who supposedly is in service department.
I was told that because SD card is part of the bus now it does not matter if I am writing to it or not. It slows down the whole bus.
Except it does not happen every shot. And it happens randomly.
He suggested to use the same speed SD card as CF card but I don't have 400x SD cards.

icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

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#1. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 0

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Sat 19-Jan-13 04:54 AM

I use a 32Gb Sandisk Extreme Pro CF (90Mb/s rating) and a 32Gb Sandisk Extreme Pro SD (95Mb/s rating) and I too get the once and while long write time to the CF card. Takes it about 10-15 sec. to write for some reason I don't understand.... So even having the "same speed" cards will still cause the glitch per say, just not as often maybe....

Chris

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briantilley

Paignton, UK
30235 posts

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#2. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 0

briantilley Gold Member Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Sat 19-Jan-13 08:14 AM

How have you determined that it's the presence of an SD card that causes the occasional slow write speed, rather than some other factor?

Brian
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Henry64

DK
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#3. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 2

Henry64 Silver Member Nikonian since 13th Jan 2008
Sat 19-Jan-13 11:22 AM

I've just did a quick test with my D800

I used a
* 16GB SanDisk Extreme Pro 90 mb/s UDMA7
* 32GB Kingston 32GB class 10


If I shoot CH(4) RAW+JPEG fine only to CF, I can shoot approx 15 images then the buffer is full and the camera slows down but captures about 2 images every 2 sec. and is writing to card for approx. 10-15 sec after I stop shooting. SD inserted but not used.

If I shoot CH(4) RAW+JPEG fine RAW to CF, JPEG to SD, I can shoot approx 15 images then the buffer is full and the camera slows down but captures about 2 images every 2 sec. and is writing to card for approx. 10-15 sec after I stop shooting.

If I shoot CH(4) RAW+JPEG fine to SD, I can shoot approx 15 images then the buffer is full and the camera slows down but captures about 2 images every 4-5 sec. and is writing to card for approx. 20-30 sec after I stop shooting. CF card NOT inserted

If I shoot CH(5) JPEG fine to CF, I can shoot forever, CF card is fast enough for that. Tried both w/o SD card inserted has no effect on the shooting/writing speed.

So basically MY SD card cannot keep up and using SD only is not a good solution for me. Shooting RAW continuously will fill up the buffer and slow down the camera, and it seems that it will not catch up again until you stop shooting.

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InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#4. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 2

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Sat 19-Jan-13 10:04 PM

It started happening when I put SD card in.
If I remove the card it does not happen.

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#5. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 3

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Sat 19-Jan-13 10:14 PM

The slow down happens during normal shooting in a single shot mode or any other mode, it does not matter. It could happen if I take a single shot or a small burst. I don't shoot in more than 2 fps. And it happens randomly.
Even then it slow writing I can take more pictures at normal speed.
The only problem is that I have to wait 15 seconds to review the image.
I shoot only in RAW, no Jpgs.

Clint S

Chula Vista, US
460 posts

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#6. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 4

Clint S Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2011
Sun 20-Jan-13 03:08 AM

Never noticed such a thing. When I'm shooting I concentrating on what I'm shooting. Don't think I ever watched the write speed as it has never hampered my shots.

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Henry64

DK
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#7. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 6

Henry64 Silver Member Nikonian since 13th Jan 2008
Sun 20-Jan-13 09:39 AM | edited Sun 20-Jan-13 09:46 AM by Henry64

Get yourself a new quality SD card

Also, you could make a backup "save settings" to a separate CF card and remove it, then format both a CF and a SD card, do a factory reset and see if that changes anything.
Restore your settings from the safely stored CF card

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wesmannmsu

US
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#8. "Full?" | In response to Reply # 0

wesmannmsu Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Mar 2011
Sun 20-Jan-13 06:16 PM

After the 10th shot, is your buffer full?

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icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

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#9. "RE: Full?" | In response to Reply # 8

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 12:12 AM | edited Mon 21-Jan-13 12:13 AM by icslowmo

I issue is totally random and can happen after taking a single shot. The busy light stays on for about 10 sec. and you can't review that image that was just taken.... You can keep shooting if needed but just can't review any shots until the process ends.... All pictures come out fine just a random 10 sec. delay for review... Only happens once and awhile for me. It did cause me to "loose" one picture of a portrait with flash as I didn't change the flash mode back to BL-TTL so was way over exposed.... And I couldn't review the image before the people walked away.... So I couldn't see that this happend and I was checking for smiles and eyes type of thing.... So it can be an issue if it happens at the wrong time....

Chris

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russg

Phoenix, US
1607 posts

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#10. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 5

russg Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Nov 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 12:26 AM

I noticed this behavior today for the first time. It happened exactly as described, while shooting single raw shots to the CF card designated as primary with the SD card designated as overflow and video.

Russ

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#11. "RE: Full?" | In response to Reply # 8

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 03:23 AM

No, not after the tenth shot. Randomly maybe every tenth shot.
Buffer is not full. It happens on the the very first shot after camera rests for awhile. Or it could happen anytime. Just seems like it happens every tenth shot.

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#12. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 7

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 03:24 AM

I did full reset including removing backup battery. Did not help.

IndyGeoff

Greenwood, US
165 posts

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#13. "RE: Full?" | In response to Reply # 9

IndyGeoff Registered since 03rd Jul 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 11:51 AM

I have run into the writing forever (ok only 10-15 seconds but seems like forever sometimes) on more than a couple occasions. The first time it concerned me, after that I just shrug and either shoot another photo or wait for the light to go out to review the image.

I cannot say it only happens when I am spraying, if one can call 4fps spraying

I use 400x cards in both SD and CF slots usually set to SD as main with CF set to overflow.

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agitater

Toronto, CA
4526 posts

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#14. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 12

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 12:01 PM

>I did full reset including removing backup battery. Did not
>help.

The backup battery? If you're using a grip, is it a Nikon or a third-party grip? If it's a third-party grip, there could be an electronic problem that is causing random slowdowns. As well, with any grip, an accidental half-press/nudge of the shutter button on the grip will activate the buffer and slowdown whatever card write is taking place. I'm just guessing at possible causes, because I've never encountered the problem you described.

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agitater

Toronto, CA
4526 posts

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#15. "RE: Full?" | In response to Reply # 13

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 12:11 PM


>I cannot say it only happens when I am spraying, if one can
>call 4fps spraying
>
>I use 400x cards in both SD and CF slots usually set to SD as
>main with CF set to overflow.

14-bit, uncompressed or lossless compressed, 36mp NEF files from the D800 can be as large as 75MB each. A series of two or three, short, 4fps bursts, one after the other, can easily generate a dozen or more files - 1GB or more quite quickly. A 400X card usually writes at a maximum of 60 MB/s. So depending on how few seconds pass between bursts. It can take anywhere up to 16 seconds or more to write the files to the card is that situation.

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agitater

Toronto, CA
4526 posts

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#16. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 0

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 12:19 PM

>Every 10 shots or so I get very slow writing speed only
>because there is a SD card in the second slot. I am NOT
>writing to this card but it is there just in case I forget CF
>cards at home (happened before).

Consider making the problem go away by removing the SD card and storing it in your camera bag.

>So, at CES I talked to Nikon rep who supposedly is in service
>department.
>I was told that because SD card is part of the bus now it does
>not matter if I am writing to it or not. It slows down the
>whole bus.

The menu setting to avoid the SD card does not turn off the slot's electronics. Any card in the slot still has to be part of the system even if data is not actually being written to it. That said, I'm personally not sure about the Nikon rep's response.

>Except it does not happen every shot. And it happens
>randomly.

. . . which is another reason to suspect some other culprit. If you're using a battery grip, you may accidentally be bumping its shutter button in a half-press, which can activate the buffer and slow things down. A third-party/non-Nikon grip can cause problems too.

>He suggested to use the same speed SD card as CF card but I
>don't have 400x SD cards.

Personally, I think a 36mp monster like the D800 absolutely needs the best and fastest cards in order to prevent the camera from drawing unnecessary attention - to prevent it from distracting us.

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InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#17. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 14

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 07:47 PM

Yes, using the grip but it is OEM.
And no, not touching the other shutter button.
In fact touching the shutter button causes writing to stop and sometimes but not all the time I can actually review the same picture that is already on the card by pressing view button. So I think writing is fake. It only takes split second to write one file. I think camera is doing something else that manifests itself as writing.

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#18. "RE: Full?" | In response to Reply # 15

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 07:49 PM

I already explained that I am not shooting in burst.
It happens after a single shot. And my files never exceeded 50mb.
Not even one.

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#19. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 16

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 07:56 PM


>
>Consider making the problem go away by removing the SD card
>and storing it in your camera bag.
>

Yes, all the time but I have a habit of leaving CF cards at home.


>
>The menu setting to avoid the SD card does not turn off the
>slot's electronics. Any card in the slot still has to be part
>of the system even if data is not actually being written to
>it. That said, I'm personally not sure about the Nikon rep's
>response.

I don't buy Nikon's rep response either. Especially that one of the responders here has SD card faster than CF card and it still happens.


>. . . which is another reason to suspect some other culprit.
>If you're using a battery grip, you may accidentally be
>bumping its shutter button in a half-press, which can activate
>the buffer and slow things down. A third-party/non-Nikon grip
>can cause problems too.

It is definitely not the grip.


>Personally, I think a 36mp monster like the D800 absolutely
>needs the best and fastest cards in order to prevent the
>camera from drawing unnecessary attention - to prevent it from
>distracting us.

No, it does not for me. I have and tried 133x and 600x. The way I shoot does not make any difference. The only burst I have ever used was 2fps once in a blue moon.

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#20. "RE: Full?" | In response to Reply # 9

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 07:59 PM

That is exactly what I am trying to avoid but so far (knock on wood) it did not happen at the wrong time even though I shot many red carpets and conventions. I always take test shots before important shots.

agitater

Toronto, CA
4526 posts

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#21. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 17

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 08:58 PM

>I think camera is doing something else that
>manifests itself as writing.

More guesses from me. Format the SD card in the D800 slot. If the problem continues, try a different SD card in the slot. Format it in the D800 and watch for the problem. If the problem goes away, it was a bad card or improperly formatted card.

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agitater

Toronto, CA
4526 posts

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#22. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 19

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 21-Jan-13 09:22 PM | edited Tue 22-Jan-13 07:21 PM by agitater

>>Personally, I think a 36mp monster like the D800
>absolutely
>>needs the best and fastest cards in order to prevent the
>>camera from drawing unnecessary attention - to prevent it
>from
>>distracting us.
>
>No, it does not for me. I have and tried 133x and 600x. The
>way I shoot does not make any difference. The only burst I
>have ever used was 2fps once in a blue moon.

I suggest forgetting about 133X, 600X and other speed ratings of this kind. Those ratings, just like the MB/s maximum ratings for any card of any kind from any brand, are the maximum read speeds. It's the continuous write speed that's most important when actually shooting. For the D800, in my experience, anything slower than a rated 45MB/s write speed (SD or CF) can slow down the works.

I've tried a wide variety of cards (SD and CF) from Lexar, Sandisk, Kingston, Transcend, Integral and a few others - all class 10 architecture. Basically, my results while street shooting correspond almost exactly with Rob Galbraith's bench test results. So now I use nothing but Sandisk Extreme Pro SD and CF cards in my D800 (because of the warranty, because they're high volume sellers so the dealers are constantly discounting them, and because I've never experienced a Sandisk card failure). I also have a couple of really fast cards from Integral - the UltimaPro models, SDXC and CF - which write at either 45MB/s.

Can't remember if someone brought it up in the thread already, but have you also tried enabling the SD card? Try setting it to write a backup and see what happens. If you already tried it, never mind.

The largest card I use is 16GB - the SD cards I use as primaries. I have several very large, fast, 128GB CF cards that I use with the CF slot set to backup. When I shoot, I never commit anything more than 16GB of shots to any one SD card. Once the card is full, I dump the contents to my laptop, then store the card until I get back home. That makes (including the backup on sometimes several CF cards, depending on the length and extent of a trip) three copies of everything. Doesn't have anything to do with your conundrum, but I thought it might be of interest anyway.

I have a plastic container full of 1, 2, 4, 8 and 16GB older class, 10MB/s (and slower) SD and CF cards. They're useless in my D7000, and many of the slower, larger old CF cards in the container were essentially too slow in my old D700 too. None of them are anywhere near fast enough and most aren't anywhere near large enough for my D800. Just junk now - or nearly junk. My oldest son (a musician and recordist) grabbed a handful some time ago because he can slot them into a selection of digital audio recorders and other gadgets he uses from time to time.

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Chuck_Tankersley

Stone Mountain, US
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#23. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 22

Chuck_Tankersley Registered since 07th Nov 2005
Tue 22-Jan-13 06:59 PM

I can confirm that I also have "long writing times" occasionally with my D800. It happens randomly and does not have anything to do with shooting bursts of raw images. In fact, this weekend while shooting "Medium-fine" files, it happened. I am using SanDisk Extreme Pro 32GB cards (both CF and SD). The camera is set for CF primary and SD for overflow.
You guys suggesting filling the buffer and then having to wait have not read the original poster completely. It has nothing to do with "bursts!"

InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#24. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 22

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Wed 23-Jan-13 03:08 AM


>
>I suggest forgetting about 133X, 600X and other speed ratings
>of this kind. Those ratings, just like the MB/s maximum
>ratings for any card of any kind from any brand, are the
>maximum read speeds. It's the continuous write speed
>that's most important when actually shooting. For the D800, in
>my experience, anything slower than a rated 45MB/s write speed
>(SD or CF) can slow down the works.

That is why these cameras have buffer.


>
>I've tried a wide variety of cards (SD and CF) from Lexar,
>Sandisk, Kingston, Transcend, Integral and a few others - all
>class 10 architecture.

Class 10 only means that card is capable of a minimum 10mb/sec writing speed. But each manufacturer might be rating their cards on top of this CLASS rating.


Basically, my results while street
>shooting correspond almost exactly with Rob Galbraith's bench
>test results. So now I use nothing but Sandisk Extreme Pro SD
>and CF cards in my D800 (because of the warranty, because
>they're high volume sellers so the dealers are constantly
>discounting them, and because I've never experienced a Sandisk
>card failure). I also have a couple of really fast cards from
>Integral - the UltimaPro models, SDXC and CF - which write at
>either 45MB/s.
>
>Can't remember if someone brought it up in the thread already,
>but have you also tried enabling the SD card? Try setting it
>to write a backup and see what happens. If you already tried
>it, never mind.

I have tried it. Same results.

BTW, one of the posters here has 90mb/sec CF and 95mb/sec SD with the same exact problem.

So it is obvious to me that there is some kind of the bug. My camera is one of the first ones and it was purchased in April of last year.




InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#25. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 21

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Wed 23-Jan-13 03:09 AM

Tried all of that already.

icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

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#26. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 24

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Wed 23-Jan-13 04:11 AM

That would be me and mine was also purchased in April... Funny wonder if that has anything to do with this issue...????

Chris

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DAJolley

US
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#27. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 26

DAJolley Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Dec 2007
Wed 23-Jan-13 10:07 AM

Same problem here with my D800E. It was purchased in April too.
Dave

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swaussie

Unteraegeri, CH
24 posts

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#28. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 27

swaussie Registered since 13th Oct 2007
Wed 23-Jan-13 10:18 AM | edited Wed 23-Jan-13 10:21 AM by swaussie

I use only a 64GB Sandisk SD card rated to 95Mb/S - nothing in the second card slot, no aftermarket battery grip, etc. It happens on mine on occasion as well. Nothing to do with burst mode, full buffer, etc. Its a bug somewhere and seems to be a random event as in I took close to 500 photos on the weekend and it happened once, so its not too annoying.

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agitater

Toronto, CA
4526 posts

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#29. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 24

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Wed 23-Jan-13 10:49 AM


>That is why these cameras have buffer.

Not entirely. The D800 buffer design seems to work best with class 10 cards. I haven't tried mixing card classes - e.g., class 10 in one slot, class 6 in the other. Perhaps the problem you're experiencing is related to that - an empty slot misread by the camera? That would definitely be a bug. It's almost as if the camera gets periodically confused by the state of the unused slot and then slows down.

>Class 10 only means that card is capable of a minimum 10mb/sec
>writing speed. But each manufacturer might be rating their
>cards on top of this CLASS rating.

That's exactly what they're doing. The theoretical SD cardbus max is 310 MB/s, and once UHS-1 standards are settled we'll start seeing some really fast cards and camera slots that can handle the data. It's probably a D800 bug, and I hate to bring it up, but the issue of fake Sandisk and fake Lexar CF and SD cards has been raised in other threads over the past couple of years. But if you're sure your main card is genuine, a slow or poorly chipped fake isn't the problem.

>BTW, one of the posters here has 90mb/sec CF and 95mb/sec SD
>with the same exact problem.

Problems occur, no doubt. Process of elimination should include confirming a genuine card as well as the rated write speed I think.

>So it is obvious to me that there is some kind of the bug. My
>camera is one of the first ones and it was purchased in April
>of last year.

Before sending the camera to Nikon for testing, maybe consider taking the camera back to your dealer (or the nearest dealer) and trying a couple of identical class 10/speed cards - CF and SD. Shoot in store for as long as it takes to either reproduce the problem or at produce some evidence that filling both slots with the same class/speed cards may eliminate the problem.

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InsaneO

Encino, US
395 posts

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#30. "RE: A possible bug with Nikon cameras with dual card slots...." | In response to Reply # 29

InsaneO Registered since 09th May 2012
Wed 23-Jan-13 05:02 PM

>
>>That is why these cameras have buffer.
>
>Not entirely. The D800 buffer design seems to work best with
>class 10 cards. I haven't tried mixing card classes - e.g.,
>class 10 in one slot, class 6 in the other.

You can't mix it. Only one SD card slot.



Perhaps the
>problem you're experiencing is related to that - an empty slot
>misread by the camera? That would definitely be a bug.

Mine only happens if SD slot is filled with SD card. I have not noticed this happening before I inserted the card.

It's
>almost as if the camera gets periodically confused by the
>state of the unused slot and then slows down.
>
>>Class 10 only means that card is capable of a minimum
>10mb/sec
>>writing speed. But each manufacturer might be rating
>their
>>cards on top of this CLASS rating.
>
>That's exactly what they're doing. The theoretical SD cardbus
>max is 310 MB/s, and once UHS-1 standards are settled we'll
>start seeing some really fast cards and camera slots that can
>handle the data. It's probably a D800 bug, and I hate to bring
>it up, but the issue of fake Sandisk and fake Lexar CF and SD
>cards has been raised in other threads over the past couple of
>years. But if you're sure your main card is genuine, a slow or
>poorly chipped fake isn't the problem.

I have fast Sandisk, Topram, Trenscend cards for CF. All of these create the same problem.


>
>>BTW, one of the posters here has 90mb/sec CF and 95mb/sec
>SD
>>with the same exact problem.
>
>Problems occur, no doubt. Process of elimination should
>include confirming a genuine card as well as the rated write
>speed I think.


Take a look, more and more posters reporting the same problem.
One poster even said that there is nothing is SD slot and he still noticed the problem. I doubt very much that it has anything to do with the fake cards.
>
>>So it is obvious to me that there is some kind of the bug.
>My
>>camera is one of the first ones and it was purchased in
>April
>>of last year.
>
>Before sending the camera to Nikon for testing, maybe consider
>taking the camera back to your dealer (or the nearest dealer)
>and trying a couple of identical class 10/speed cards - CF and
>SD. Shoot in store for as long as it takes to either reproduce
>the problem or at produce some evidence that filling both
>slots with the same class/speed cards may eliminate the
>problem.

Don't need to. One poster here already reported what you suggested.

Hopefully Nikon will fix it in the next firmware update.

G