Even though we ARE Nikon lovers,we are NOT affiliated with Nikon Corp. in any way.

English German French

Sign up Login
Home Forums Articles Galleries Recent Photos Contest Help Search News Workshops Shop Upgrade Membership Recommended
members
All members Wiki Contests Vouchers Apps Newsletter THE NIKONIAN™ Magazines Podcasts Fundraising

D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ...

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author
HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Tue 08-Jan-13 09:58 PM | edited Tue 08-Jan-13 10:33 PM by HBB

I have a wafer of microprocessor chips (circa 1995) that failed inspection. It was given to me to use in lectures on computer technology.

The wafer is 8.0 inches in diameter and each microprocessor chip is approximately 0.5 inches on a side. The wafer contains several hundred microprocessor chips.

Feature sizes for this microprocessor ranged from 0.6 microns in its early days, to 0.35 microns in later versions. Over this interval, clock speeds ranged from 133 MHz t0o 200 MHz

D800E, ISO 200 (base), White Balance = Flash
Nikon AFS Micro Nikkor 105 mm, G ED 1:2.8 at F/11.0

Two Nikon SB-R200 speedlights with diffusers were used on small, table top tripods to illuminate the wafer.

The top image is a full frame at the Micro Nikkor's closest focus.

The bottom image is a 100% crop from the center of the full frame image.

I see no sign of moire patterns in either of these images.

I continue to be impressed with the resolution capabilities of the D800E.

Please excuse the dust particles seen in the images. They refused to budge when I used my small Rocket blower, and I didn't want to us a brush on the wafer, and I didn't have time to clean it with alcohol.

Edited to correct typo and to mention that the original image was captured in uncompressed RAW, at 14 bit color depth. Image out of camera was about 74 MB, on screen following RAW 207 MB.

Comments and critique welcome.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)

BullockBob666

Perth, AU
111 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#1. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 0

BullockBob666 Registered since 12th Dec 2012
Wed 09-Jan-13 12:08 AM

Quite an extraordinary image, with great detail.

Would you be able to do a 100% crop at an edge as well, for comparison?

Cheers
Rob

It's all about the light

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#2. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 0

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Wed 09-Jan-13 12:38 AM

Update:

While playing a bit more with these images on my 24 inch Eizo monitor in Photoshop CS5, I was able to see a faint moire pattern in the top image at some magnifications, but not others. Moire was visible at magnifications less than 50%, but not above. I was viewing the image at 206 MB, prior to down sizing and compressing for Nikonian posting.

I suspect the moire I saw was a monitor artifact due to the repeating patterns on the chips, and not in the D800E image.

I have not seen the moire pattern in the bottom image at about 56 MB, prior to down sizing and compressing for Nikonian posting, on the Eizo monitor at any of the several sizes I sampled.

On the Eizo monitor at posted sizes, I cannot see moire in either image.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Rob: Are you asking for a 100% crop from the edge of the original image? If yes, let me know and I will try and post it tomorrow.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

BullockBob666

Perth, AU
111 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#3. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 2

BullockBob666 Registered since 12th Dec 2012
Wed 09-Jan-13 02:09 AM

Hi there

Yes, that is exactly what I was requesting, if it isn't too much trouble.

Cheers

It's all about the light

icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#4. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 2

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Wed 09-Jan-13 02:33 AM

>Update:
>
>While playing a bit more with these images on my 24 inch Eizo
>monitor in Photoshop CS5, I was able to see a faint moire
>pattern in the top image at some magnifications, but not
>others. Moire was visible at magnifications less than 50%,
>but not above. I was viewing the image at 206 MB, prior to
>down sizing and compressing for Nikonian posting.
>
>I suspect the moire I saw was a monitor artifact due to the
>repeating patterns on the chips, and not in the D800E image.
>
>I have not seen the moire pattern in the bottom image at about
>56 MB, prior to down sizing and compressing for Nikonian
>posting, on the Eizo monitor at any of the several sizes I
>sampled.
>
>On the Eizo monitor at posted sizes, I cannot see moire in
>either image.
>
>Any thoughts or suggestions?
>
>.......

Here is an example of true moire'

Here is the complete frame showing current LCD's using interpolation to try and produce fine detail:

Click on image to view larger version


And 100% crop:

Click on image to view larger version


As you can see, you can see it in both samples. If you find any, it would present the rainbow patterns as the give away as I've seen it in many pictures I've taken with my D800E.

Another example:

Full frame:

Click on image to view larger version


100% crop of back window:

Click on image to view larger version


Hope this helps show what to look for and how current LCD's are unable to show the fine detail when not zoomed in on images.

Chris
Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)
Attachment#3 (jpg file)
Attachment#4 (jpg file)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

nnikonk

Edinburgh, UK
21 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#5. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 0

nnikonk Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Nov 2012
Wed 09-Jan-13 06:29 AM

Really neat work.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#6. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 1

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Thu 10-Jan-13 08:36 PM

Rob:

As requested, here is the same 100% crop taken from the left side of the original image. I simply moved to the left edge of the original at the same vertical position.

Does this answer your question?

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)

BullockBob666

Perth, AU
111 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#7. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 6

BullockBob666 Registered since 12th Dec 2012
Fri 11-Jan-13 03:45 AM

Much appreciated, thank you.

As well as seeing fantastic macro images I was also interested in edge sharpness of the lens. I know I am heading OT here but how would you characterise the afs version of the lens with regard to edge sharpness? Some reports suggest it isn't as sharp as its AFD predecessor.

Cheers
Rob

It's all about the light

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#8. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 4

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Fri 11-Jan-13 02:26 PM

Chris:

Thanks for joining this discussion, and for the images.

In the top image, I assume the moire is caused by a screen outside the window, correct? And, the screen covers just the left side of the window?

What is the cause of it in the bottom image? I can't see anything in the window that has a repeating pattern. Does the window to the right exhibit the same pattern? The colored lines look a lot like Newton rings.

It would be interesting to see the differences between your D800E images and the same images captured in a D800. Any possibility that you have a friend with a D800?

Were polarisers used on either of the images?

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#9. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 8

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Sat 12-Jan-13 01:16 AM

Yes the first image was a typical window screen on the out side of a window and was only on the left side. (PP to match WB a little and exposure a bit. Done quickly for an example for this thread) Image was to show what moire' I typically see in any images that have it. They well have the rainbow effect and I do find on some that are bad enough, found a portrait pic last night that had it badly in the luminance channel, that it require photoshop to remove. However I haven't figured out the luminance channel yet as LR4.3 handles the rainbow effect just fine.

Unfortaintly I do not know anyone that has a D800(E) other then those on this site. I have one friend that shoots with a Canon 7D and another with a D300. So no real way to compare. I wonder if I or you had a chance to go to FotoForum, if they have anything around the store that I know would cause moire' and test each D800 with the same lens and on a tri-pod to see how much a difference could be seen in a real life personal test. I know DPreview had a section comparing the two, and seemed the E had more then the non-E, which still produced the effect of moire'.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/27

Your last question of a palorizor being used is no, I did not have one on the lens for either shot. Wondering what effect a palorizor would have on this???

Chris

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

John Bertotti

Garretson, US
800 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#10. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 9

John Bertotti Gold Member Nikonian since 30th Jun 2012
Sat 12-Jan-13 02:33 PM

I do not have a d800 but a thought that may or may not help. I wonder what type of glass would be in a public pool area. Many safety glasses are not one thick chunk of glass but many layers of glass with a substance between to bind them together and keep them from fracturing into knife shards should someone fall into or through. These layers can act as a prism. Could this effect be what you camera is catching here?

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#11. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 10

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Sun 13-Jan-13 03:06 PM

John:

Thanks for joining us.

Great observation: Laminated plate safety glass, where slight differences in thickness act as a prism as you suggest. If this is what is occurring, I wonder if the effect will show up with other cameras?

I will scout around town and find out if I can find a sample of this glass to test. Should be interesting.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#12. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 7

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Sun 13-Jan-13 03:13 PM

Rob:

I don't own the earlier version of this lens, so cannot offer a comparison.

Based on the above images and others taken with different bodies, I am very pleased with the 105 mm AFS version I have.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

BullockBob666

Perth, AU
111 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#13. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 12

BullockBob666 Registered since 12th Dec 2012
Sun 13-Jan-13 11:58 PM

Thanks Hal. Might be time to update to the AFS version then

Cheers
Rob

It's all about the light

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#14. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 13

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Mon 14-Jan-13 03:18 PM

Rob:

Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Thanks also for your tag line: "It's all about the light."

I agree, I agree ... !

I have been criticized for teaching that there are four variables involved in arriving at the desired exposure: Aperture, Shutter Speed, and Illumination. Every camera with any automatic exposure capability (A, S, P, etc.) executes some version of the simple equation that integrates these four variables. Given any three of the variables, it is relatively simple arithmetic to calculate the fourth.

Apparently some are teaching that illumination is not part of the exposure calculation process. I have been told by some, that they only teach aperture and shutter speed, ignoring ISO and illumination completely. Granted, some students have a tough time wrapping their heads around the exposure issue. I believe students should be exposed to all four variables at the same time, and it is up to the instructor to explain their relationships and integration into the exposure calculation.

In my personal view, illumination is the sine qua non of photography: Without illumination there can be no photography. I would be misleading students if I ignored illumination.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

EFJR

US
15 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#15. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 11

EFJR Registered since 18th Oct 2009
Thu 17-Jan-13 02:21 AM

Modern safety glass tends to be pretty flat and regular, but there is a refractive boundary between the plastic inner layer and glass on each side.

Some windows have what appear to be regular metal wire as a grid embedded in them. I can not tell if this is the case with this window. That could also cause moire.

Edward

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

BullockBob666

Perth, AU
111 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#16. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 14

BullockBob666 Registered since 12th Dec 2012
Thu 17-Jan-13 01:53 PM

Thanks Hal.

Digressing slightly, I remember one of the first things my teacher said when learning Photography at school (which is a very long time ago now). The definition of photography was having the ability to record light. While very simplistic it really still all boils down to that. Anybody who has had the pleasure of making a pinhole camera would see photography (and the effect of illumination and sensitivity) in its most basic form.

Good luck with teaching the four variables!

Cheers
Rob

It's all about the light

BullockBob666

Perth, AU
111 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#17. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 14

BullockBob666 Registered since 12th Dec 2012
Thu 17-Jan-13 01:53 PM | edited Thu 17-Jan-13 02:01 PM by BullockBob666

And although I've only been in the group a short time, I've found that time has been invaluable when dealing with all things Nikon. Helpful advice and robust debate is great !!!

Cheers
Rob

It's all about the light

notes386

Peoria, US
243 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#18. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 10

notes386 Gold Member Nikonian since 13th May 2008
Fri 18-Jan-13 06:33 PM

I am in the NW Valley and own a D800. How can I help?

nikon@dgoebel.net
Dan, Peoria, Az

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#19. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 18

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Fri 18-Jan-13 06:47 PM

Dan:

Many thanks for joining this thread, and your offer to help.

I am near 31st Avenue and Northern, not far from Peoria.

I have a nice copy stand here, and perhaps we could set up the Pentium microprocessor wafer and capture two sets of identical images: one with your D800 and another with my D800E. Should be interesting.

Let me know if this works for you, and we can arrange time and date.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

mawyatt1

US
105 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#20. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 5

mawyatt1 Registered since 11th Feb 2012
Fri 18-Jan-13 07:15 PM

Very nice shots. These are difficult to get I know I have been imaging the chips we design. Got started with the D70, then on to the D7000 and soon I'll get some images with my D800. I use the same 105mm Macro lens, sometimes with extenders for higher magnification, which I found better than dipoter lenses or teleconverters. Also found that multiple (4) diffused light sources helps with some of the color fringing on the wafer surface.

A microfocusing rail is a blessing when trying to focus down to micro levels. Also make sure the lens/camera plane is pefectly parallel to the wafer, this harder than it sounds because even a small error in parallalizm will cause the image edges to be out of focus because the DOF is so very small.

I am getting ready to do some images of test chips we have developed in an IBM process called IBM9hp. It's at 90nm BiCMOS process with 300GHz bipolar Silicon Germanium transistors. If a can I will try and post some of these images.


Great job showing what makes our cameras, computers and cell phones work. It's amazing when one considers with the latest silicon CMOS processes we can place 1000~10,000 MOS transistors inside a single D800 pixel!!

Cheers,

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#21. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 20

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Fri 18-Jan-13 10:08 PM

Mike:

Thanks for dropping in. I appreciate your kind words and your addition to this thread.

If you are with IBM in Florida, you might be in Boca Raton, yes?

I remember when industry experts were saying the one micron was the limit in photolithography. This was before some very clever people descended into the deep UV realm, and other technologies. As you know, once you go beyond deep UV, you are soon into soft X-rays, and all the associated problems. One way or another, Gordon Moore's law is still alive.

Direct write E-beam was discusssed some years back, but I haven't heard the term in quite a while. While the feature size is smaller, the write-time factor was the problem. Do you have any recent news of that technology?

While on my stroll down memory lane, what happened to gallium-arsenide technology? When I was active in semiconductor technology (early to mid-1990s) it was still a bit tricky getting the components to play nice together.

In addition to the copy stand mentioned earlier, I have the 1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 teleconverters. Next time I photograph the wafers I will use the stand and the teleconverters and see what occurs. The image above was a quick and dirty table-top session using a small RRS tripod, the wafer propped up on a book, and a pair of SB-R200 speedlights for illumination.

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

mawyatt1

US
105 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#22. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 21

mawyatt1 Registered since 11th Feb 2012
Mon 21-Jan-13 10:15 PM

I didn't have much luck with the teleconverters for this type of work, the extenders worked better. They are inexpensive and the Kenko ones will pass the lenses signals thru to the camera body.

Direct Write E-Beam is still around but hasn't made any impact for the reasons you describe. GaAs has made some in roads but is being displaced with CMOS, SiGe and GaN in most new applications. I don't work for IBM, but we had a small fabless design group that was acquired by ITT in 2006. If you have access to the IEEE, check the Sept 2005 issue of the IEEE Proceedings, we were invited to publish a paper on SiGe Radar applications. We do mostly government work, DARPA and such.

Funny but the commercial silicon fabs have completely outrun the government's ability to keep up in silicon technology (CMOS specifically), so the government is riding on the coat tails of commercial work at IBM, Intel and others. The new chips these folks are producing with devices so far below the defraction limits of conventional optics, all the conventional thinking folks are accusing Mother Nature of fibbing!! Moore's Law keeps marching on!! However, I remember the commercial where it said, "it's not nice to fool Mother Nature", so she may have a few surprises for us in the near future!!

Cheers,

HBB

Phoenix, US
8774 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#23. "RE: D800E Microprocessor Chip Images ..." | In response to Reply # 22

HBB Moderator Hal is an expert in several areas, including CLS Awarded for his excellent article contributions to the Resources. Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Mon 21-Jan-13 11:07 PM

Mike:

Thanks much for the update. As I think I mentioned earlier, I am so glad I am an observer of the semiconductor industry and its related dependents, as opposed to being a participant as I was for five decades.

Carried to its perhaps illogical extreme, one day they will be illuminating wafer masks with cosmic rays, assuming that Rayleigh's Limit still holds at those wavelengths. That may be the point at which Moore's Law finally fails. I don't exclude anything from the realm of possibility any more. There are so many truly clever people out there with tools we never dreamed of in the core memory and discrete component days. My earliest computers had clock times in the tens of milliseconds. Remember processor "wait states"?

Mother Nature always has a few surprises for us. One of my favorite personal speculations relates to the dark energy/matter question, and the accelerating expansion rate of the universe. I suspect that Mother Nature, in perhaps her finest irony, made the yet to be confirmed gravitron and its antiparticle mutually repellent instead of mutually attractive as is the case with every other known particle/antiparticle pair. Wouldn't that be a hoot and a half? It would give the folks at the Large Hadron Collider in Europe something to pursue following their anticipated confirmation of the Higgs Boson.

Stay tuned ...

Regards,

HBB in Phoenix, Arizona
Nikonian Team Member

Photography is a journey with no conceivable destination.

G