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Escaladieu

Artiguemy, FR
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Escaladieu Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Apr 2010
Tue 23-Oct-12 02:27 PM

I'm trying to avoid the "that expensive camera can't take a picture of the dog?" question from the expenditure committee ( my wife )

The following were pretty much the first shots I took with the D800.

I wanted to confirm that the low light AFC worked & was hoping that my 70- 300 would work OK for Dog action.

1/400 f6.3 ISO 2800 @ 300 mm I guess the dog was moving at about 15 mph.


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I was trying to keep the ISO down, so set the SS to 400. What settings should I have used ?

Thanks in advance

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RECONLEY

Marietta, US
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#1. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

RECONLEY Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Jun 2012
Tue 23-Oct-12 12:48 PM

Try setting a3 "Focus tracking with lock-on" to Off. AF will should do a better job of keeping a target moving towards you in focus.

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DigitalDarrell

Knoxville, US
5987 posts

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#2. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 1

DigitalDarrell Team Member Founding Member of the Nikonians writer Guild. Author of most of the NikoniansPress books. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Tue 23-Oct-12 01:03 PM | edited Tue 23-Oct-12 01:09 PM by DigitalDarrell

However, turning off Focus tracking with lock-on will cause anything getting briefly between your camera and the subject to draw the attention (focus) of the camera. Only turn lock-on off if your subject will not go behind some other object while tracking, or a brighter, closer object won't enter the frame with your subject, or you could lose focus on the subject. The camera waits to refocus for a time you determine in settings if it loses the subject briefly.

It only speeds the camera up to not use lock-on because the camera no longer worries about staying with your subject when something gets in the way. It does not have to use extra processing power to stay with your subject even if it is briefly blocked from view.

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#3. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Tue 23-Oct-12 03:17 PM | edited Tue 23-Oct-12 03:17 PM by Ferguson

>I was trying to keep the ISO down, so set the SS to 400. What
>settings should I have used ?

I realize the emphasis of the discussion is focus, but I think what you ahve is motion blur. 1/400th of a second is too slow at 300mm with something moving that fast.

Look at the water drops, some are frozen, but those are not moving fast. Look at the big one to the left of the nose, and especially in the top right corner the tiny ones. Those tiny ones are too small to be oblong globs, they are just motion-streaked. While the dog isn't moving that fast, he is moving fast enough that he's blurred.

Go look at the sports forums, where people are shooting volleyball, soccer, etc. They will tell you to shoot at least 1/1000th or faster for humans, and I bet your dog is moving faster.

The camera has really good high ISO performance, go ahead and crank it up, the fast shutter will freeze the motion and the noise won't be bad. Or reduce the aperture as well if you want to keep it down, you can still get an in-focus head.


Linwood

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Hawk Eyes

US
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#4. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

Hawk Eyes Registered since 09th Jun 2012
Tue 23-Oct-12 09:21 PM | edited Tue 23-Oct-12 09:41 PM by Hawk Eyes

Try Higher shutter 1/1500 or higher and Auto ISO in darker places.... read what you can do with the Auto ISO, and how good photos look up to 6400 with the D800...it works great.
I also like 51 point in AF-C. Give this all a try and see what you think.

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2807 posts

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#5. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 3

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 23-Oct-12 04:01 PM

>Go look at the sports forums, where people are shooting
>volleyball, soccer, etc. They will tell you to shoot at least
>1/1000th or faster for humans, and I bet your dog is moving
>faster.

This.

I try to shoot human sports participants at 1/1250 to freeze them. I'd be at 1/2500 or so for a dog. Maybe even more.

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blw

Richmond, US
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#6. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Tue 23-Oct-12 05:54 PM | edited Tue 23-Oct-12 05:56 PM by blw

Roughly this same shot can be taken with a D100 and screwdriver AF 70-300/f4-5.6 AF D ED. Im traveling and can't get to my archives, but I have shot MANY sheepdog trials as well as my own Labradors, and it's DEFINITELY not out of the capability of the D800.

In this case, you may have had one additional complication, which is the large amount of water in the frame - it's all at a different focus distance, and in this particular case the fact that the D800 is really fast reacting might be working against you. The focus tracking lock recommendation is appropriate for this reason.

The suggestion of faster shutter speeds is also spot on.

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#7. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 6

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Tue 23-Oct-12 05:55 PM | edited Tue 23-Oct-12 05:56 PM by Ferguson

>Roughly this same shot can be taken with a D100 and
>70-300/f4-5.6 AF D ED. Im traveling and can't get to my
>archives, but I have shot MANY sheepdog trials as well as my
>own Labradors, and it's DEFINITELY not out of the capability
>of the D800.

Do note the light levels in the OP, it was pretty dark. I agree with the conclusion, but it's not just dog running in the water, it was black dog running the deep shade in the water.

Linwood

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blw

Richmond, US
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#8. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 7

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Tue 23-Oct-12 06:04 PM

That's EV11, more or less, which is not bright but is well within the capabilities of the D800. Nikon specs the AF system from EV -2 to EV 19, so this is actually closer to the brighter end than the dimmer end of the specification range.

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5701 posts

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#9. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 8

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Tue 23-Oct-12 06:06 PM

>That's EV11, more or less, which is not bright but is well
>within the capabilities of the D800. Nikon specs the AF
>system from EV -2 to EV 19, so this is actually closer to the
>brighter end than the dimmer end of the specification range.

I agree entirely, it was the D100 comparison I was reacting to.


Linwood

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blw

Richmond, US
28561 posts

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#10. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 9

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Tue 23-Oct-12 06:34 PM

Well, I've shot sheepdog trials at dusk with the D100, so it's not as if I'm exaggerating. The D100 specification is EV -1 to 19, so not as good as the D800 but not far apart. Granted that it's got few (one?) cross-type AF sensor and the D800 has many, but if we're using that one, it should be OK.

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Luke_Miller

Rural Virginia, US
1761 posts

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#11. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 6

Luke_Miller Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2006
Tue 23-Oct-12 08:26 PM

>In this case, you may have had one additional complication,
>which is the large amount of water in the frame - it's all at
>a different focus distance, and in this particular case the
>fact that the D800 is really fast reacting might be working
>against you. The focus tracking lock recommendation is
>appropriate for this reason.

I know a pro who shoots swimming meets. He once told me it was a challenge getting properly exposed shots of the swimmers' face if they were swimming directly towards him. The splashing water in front of the swimmers would draw the focus off.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#12. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 11

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 23-Oct-12 09:00 PM

>>In this case, you may have had one additional
>complication,
>>which is the large amount of water in the frame - it's all
>at
>>a different focus distance, and in this particular case
>the
>>fact that the D800 is really fast reacting might be
>working
>>against you. The focus tracking lock recommendation is
>>appropriate for this reason.
>
>I know a pro who shoots swimming meets. He once told me it
>was a challenge getting properly exposed shots of the
>swimmers' face if they were swimming directly towards him.
>The splashing water in front of the swimmers would draw the
>focus off.


Interesting. I took a few thousand frames of college water polo this spring and the D8000 worked like a champ. Visit my web page for examples.

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Escaladieu

Artiguemy, FR
943 posts

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#13. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

Escaladieu Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Apr 2010
Wed 24-Oct-12 02:21 AM | edited Wed 24-Oct-12 02:23 AM by Escaladieu

Thanks everyone, I thought it might be motion blur, I'll try a faster speed & report back. I'm out of my comfort zone here - I'm a landscape shooter !

BTW Focus tracking with lock-on was set to off.

Thanks again

Jeff

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lukaswerth

Lahore, PK
574 posts

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#14. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 13

lukaswerth Registered since 24th May 2012
Wed 24-Oct-12 08:03 AM

Just for the record:
I liked you picture as it is. The slight blur just adds some drama. I can't see the necessarily of a total freeze.

Lukas


Trying to be a keeper of the light

LMMiller9

Potomac, US
1168 posts

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#15. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 14

LMMiller9 Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2005
Wed 24-Oct-12 01:01 PM

I absolutely agree with this. Freezing every water drop in perfect focus is an interesting exercise, but not something that defines an interesting photo. I have also shot a lot of chocolate labs on the beach and they make a fun subject. I like to capture the motion and some blur often makes it more interesting.

Larry Miller, Potomac, MD
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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#16. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 15

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Wed 24-Oct-12 01:18 PM

>I absolutely agree with this. Freezing every water drop in
>perfect focus is an interesting exercise, but not something
>that defines an interesting photo.

I think most of us reacted to the OP's question implying there was a problem, not because we didn't like it.

Linwood

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txstone12

Texas, US
599 posts

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#17. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

txstone12 Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 12th Feb 2012
Fri 26-Oct-12 12:28 AM

I agree that the shot is just fine as it is - a very fine motion shot. It does remind me of an early D800/E 'Initial Field Impressions' review at the url below - look for Autofocus Tracking

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon_d800__e_initial_impressions.shtml

The reviewer took a burst of 15 continuous shots of his Golden Retriever running toward him with the D800E. He said he was using 'autofocus tracking'. I'm not sure what that means to everyone. Thom Hogan in his D800 book refers to Track Focus - holding down the AF-ON button in AF-C mode while shooting. The reviewer was shooting at f/8, auto-ISO and a shutter speed of 1/1000 for his series FWIW.

I also wanted to ask, how do we just know that the conditions for this photo were EV11, mas o menos? I'm missing something here and don't know where that information is coming from? Could you share how you know that, Brian?

Thanks,

David

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txstone12

Texas, US
599 posts

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#18. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 8

txstone12 Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 12th Feb 2012
Sun 28-Oct-12 04:34 PM

>That's EV11, more or less, which is not bright but is well
>within the capabilities of the D800. Nikon specs the AF
>system from EV -2 to EV 19, so this is actually closer to the
>brighter end than the dimmer end of the specification range.

What am I missing? Where do you get the information to make the EV11 call, Brian ?

Thanks,

David

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5701 posts

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#19. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 18

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Sun 28-Oct-12 07:44 PM


>What am I missing? Where do you get the information to make
>the EV11 call, Brian ?

I'm wondering as well, as about when he was posting that I was about to post that it was +14, which was three stops different. I just dug up (thanks to Google) a calculator here:

http://www.giangrandi.ch/optics/lenses/expcalc.html

And it gives 13.9. Now the lens focuses wide open and the comment was in the AF usage sense, so at F5.6 you get about EV+.3 more for focus.

My comment about it being dark was not about focus just about getting a decent image of a fast moving subject, IF the goal was to freeze action completely. That might not have been the object of course.

But I'm also curious about the EV +11, as I don't think in "EV" so was not at all sure of my number.



Linwood

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jrp

San Pedro Garza GarcĂ­a, MX
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#20. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

jrp Administrator JRP is one of the co-founders, has in-depth knowledge in various areas. Awarded for his contributions for the Resources Charter Member
Mon 29-Oct-12 01:15 AM | edited Mon 29-Oct-12 01:18 AM by jrp

I like your images as they are.

Yet, I had the opportunity to try myself the D800 at the recent ANPAT 12.
Some conclusions on focus tracking, important to me because of some other settings findings (reconfirming what was found on the D700, D7000 and others before):
a) Best AF tracking was obtained using Dynamic 21 focus points (not 1, 9 or 51)
b) Focusing Mode AF-C
c) Must keep the priority sensor over the subject while tracking (use AF-ON)
d) On subjects as close as your dog, try to maintain focus on the eyes.
e) Don't be afraid to raise ISO higher, for faster shutter speeds.

Have a great time :-)
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Escaladieu

Artiguemy, FR
943 posts

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#21. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 20

Escaladieu Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Apr 2010
Mon 29-Oct-12 10:32 AM

>I like your images as they are.
>
>Yet, I had the opportunity to try myself the D800 at the
>recent ANPAT 12.
>Some conclusions on focus tracking, important to me because of
>some other settings findings (reconfirming what was found on
>the D700, D7000 and others before):
>a) Best AF tracking was obtained using Dynamic 21 focus points
>(not 1, 9 or 51)
>b) Focusing Mode AF-C
>c) Must keep the priority sensor over the subject while
>tracking (use AF-ON)
>d) On subjects as close as your dog, try to maintain focus on
>the eyes.
>e) Don't be afraid to raise ISO higher, for faster shutter
>speeds.

Thanks very much for this - I followed your advice this morning - and used the suggested shutter speed of 1/1250 ...

1/1250 , F7.1, ISO 4500 @ 230 mm




Click on image to view larger version


I'm happy now I can stop the action in poor light. - As to the original images, I was pleased with them as well, as said above, the blur adds a bit of an impression of speed to the shots. Here's a few more from my original attempt.

Now all I need to do is convince the expenditure committee that I need a 2.8 70 - 200 !






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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5701 posts

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#22. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 21

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Mon 29-Oct-12 10:48 AM


>Now all I need to do is convince the expenditure committee
>that I need a 2.8 70 - 200 !

That's easy. Find articles about the holy trinity (14-24, 24-70, 70-200), leave them lying around in view. Talk about how $6000, when you think about it over the lifetime of a good lens, is not so bad (say $2/day).

Or print out some specs (with prices showing) on a 400/F2.8.

After you hint around about these for a while, the expenditure committee might find it easy to compromise down to the 70-200 only.

Though looking at your equipment you have a lot of overlap in the medium zoom range already with both the 24-120 and 70-300, and you do have a camera good at high ISO.

Linwood

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mklass

Tacoma, US
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#23. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 21

mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006
Mon 29-Oct-12 12:02 PM


>Now all I need to do is convince the expenditure committee
>that I need a 2.8 70 - 200 !
>
Have you considered bringing the dog home wet and threatening to let it into the house and onto the bed?

Nice shots and nice dog.

Mick
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greenwing

Yorkshire, UK
1304 posts

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#24. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 19

greenwing Registered since 18th May 2006
Mon 29-Oct-12 01:01 PM | edited Mon 29-Oct-12 03:09 PM by greenwing

>
>>What am I missing? Where do you get the information to
>make
>>the EV11 call, Brian ?
>
>I'm wondering as well, as about when he was posting that I was
>about to post that it was +14, which was three stops
>different. I just dug up (thanks to Google) a calculator
>here:
>
>http://www.giangrandi.ch/optics/lenses/expcalc.html
>
>And it gives 13.9. Now the lens focuses wide open and the
>comment was in the AF usage sense, so at F5.6 you get about
>EV+.3 more for focus.
>
>

That calculator doesn't seem to movethe EV when you change ISO. The Luminance changes, but not the EV.

Chris

jamesvoortman

Durban, ZA
1468 posts

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#25. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 0

jamesvoortman Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Sep 2004
Mon 29-Oct-12 05:03 PM

Is there some reason you're not happy with that shot?

Looks great to me considering the ISO. My D300 could not have taken a shot like that at all. Even with flash the shutter speed the shutter speed would be limited to 1/320 and without flash the relatively poor ISO latitude would have resulted in a ton of noise.

Focus is good, the little bit of motion blur probably more due to 1/400 SS too slow to freeze the action. However, the little bit of blur and the blur on some of the water drops conveys the sense of motion. I think it is a great shot taken in very difficult light.

I ordered my D800 a few days ago. If this is what it can do I'm impressed.

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txstone12

Texas, US
599 posts

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#26. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 20

txstone12 Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 12th Feb 2012
Thu 01-Nov-12 08:47 PM

>I like your images as they are.
>
>Yet, I had the opportunity to try myself the D800 at the
>recent ANPAT 12.
>Some conclusions on focus tracking, important to me because of
>some other settings findings (reconfirming what was found on
>the D700, D7000 and others before):
>a) Best AF tracking was obtained using Dynamic 21 focus points
>(not 1, 9 or 51)
>b) Focusing Mode AF-C
>c) Must keep the priority sensor over the subject while
>tracking (use AF-ON)
>d) On subjects as close as your dog, try to maintain focus on
>the eyes.
>e) Don't be afraid to raise ISO higher, for faster shutter
>speeds.

JRP, would you be kind enough to share your experience by telling us what type of subjects you were photographing on your recent ANPAT? Was this the NM ANPAT mentioned in this week's Newsletter? Curious about what type of experience led you to prefer 21-pt Dynamic area AF too?

Thank you,



David

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Escaladieu

Artiguemy, FR
943 posts

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#27. "RE: Help me out please" | In response to Reply # 25

Escaladieu Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Apr 2010
Sat 03-Nov-12 07:31 AM

>Is there some reason you're not happy with that shot?
>
>Looks great to me considering the ISO. My D300 could not have
>taken a shot like that at all. Even with flash the shutter
>speed the shutter speed would be limited to 1/320 and without
>flash the relatively poor ISO latitude would have resulted in
>a ton of noise.
>
>Focus is good, the little bit of motion blur probably more due
>to 1/400 SS too slow to freeze the action. However, the little
>bit of blur and the blur on some of the water drops conveys
>the sense of motion. I think it is a great shot taken in
>very difficult light.
>
>I ordered my D800 a few days ago. If this is what it can do
>I'm impressed.

I was happy with it, I just wanted to test the autofocus out.

I did quite a lot of this type of shooting with the D700 - the success rate was about 15% & the noise unacceptable really. Having got used to the D800 a little more, I'm getting a ~ 80% success rate in similar low light conditions. The following with the 105mm Macro ... ISO 8063, 1/1250 F6.3.


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