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Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?

jim thomas

Edmond, US
1322 posts

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jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Mon 13-Feb-12 11:46 PM

I have ordered the D800 rather than the D800E due to concerns about moire' problems with the E model. I read somewhere that the difference between the sharpness of the D800 and the E model could be equalized by proper application of capture sharpening. I use Photoshop CS5 and routinely apply capture sharpening in Camera Raw. I have no experience with trying to fix moire' problems so am unable to evaluate how difficult that is. However, from what I have read the consensus seems to be that it can be quite difficult to fix.

Do you think that capture sharpening of D800 images will produce the same sharpness as one can achieve with the E model?

JDT

nikonus

Southern California, US
499 posts

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#1. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 0

nikonus Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 04th Feb 2007
Tue 14-Feb-12 12:36 AM | edited Tue 14-Feb-12 10:20 AM by nikonus

About 80% of the way through it shows the detail of the D800E and D800 At 10:55 minutes .On my iMac display its a 1/4 inch square section cropped from a 13.750" wide image .

To me I only see a softer contrast , slight edge sharpening would bring it up to the D800E image . I doubt this would be seen using average lenses .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCfP-2B7Kng&feature=related

Hans K.

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#2. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 0

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Tue 14-Feb-12 01:53 AM | edited Wed 15-Feb-12 12:06 AM by robsb

In looking at the review it implies that thre is a moire correction filter in CNX2.3. I don't see any, but it may be a filter that does not show itself unless it sees a D800. Moire problems in my experience will not be fixed by capture sharpening as it is in interference pattern that will need to e eliminated, and it takes a bit of work. There is a very good discussion of this in Dan Margolis' book Photoshop Professional. As far as gaining detail by capture sharpening, if it isn't there you can't gain it back, though you can fool the eye to think something has more detail with sharpening tricks. EDIT 2/14/2012. I quote the wron gbook by Dan Margulis to attack Moire. In Photoshop LAB Color starting on page 240, he explains how to use the A&B channels in LAB to get rid of Moire patterns. This is a book that I highly recommend, even if you don't use Photoshop as it will give you a very good understanding of color post processing. Warning- this is NOT a simple cookbook, you have to work a bit.

Bob Baldassano
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walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
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#3. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 2

walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Master Ribbon awarded as a member who has gone beyond technical knowledge to show mastery of the art and science of photography   Donor Ribbon awarded for his most generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 05th May 2002
Tue 14-Feb-12 02:20 AM

It's in 2.3. It's located at the top of the Camera and Lens Correction section, but it's suppressed and not visible unless you have a raw file open. It doesn't need to be a D800 file - any Nikon raw file should work. Something that seems unfortunate to me is that it's a global setting rather than a local one (a la NR4). That means the entire image could be affected by activating it (it has low, medium and high parameters), but in quick experiments I did with other raw files, cranking it up didn't seem to affect the image as a whole, so maybe it's quite smart and will attack only areas where it perceives moire. If that didn't work you could always generate two conversions out of 2.3 - one with moire correction active and the other with it inactive, layer them in Photoshop and then paint in a portion of the image with the correction enabled.

BTW, my personal experience with higher res (not as high as the D800) cameras lacking an AA filter is that moire didn't show up much at all in my photos, but the images sure looked nice. It was a pretty rare thing to see it, and I really had to hunt to find it. The D800e should be a bit better for several reasons, so I'm not expecting a big problem on that front for the kinds of things I do. I have three different software packages on my computers that will remove or diminish it (LR4, Capture One, and NX2), so I figure one of them should work. There are also more cumbersome techniques in Photoshop, but I think I should be able to avoid that. Some of this we won't know until the camera is out in distribution and some experimentation can be done.

Rick Walker

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GeoVista Photography

robsb

San Jose, US
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#4. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 3

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Tue 14-Feb-12 11:46 PM

Thanks Rick, that is where I looked first but I did not have a RAW file open at the time as I was working on huge TIFFS from SilverFAST. I don't recall having any moire patterns in any of my images to try it out, but I am gald to see the filter anyway as my experience with other methods take time. But having at least two post processors like NX2 and Photoshop I think you could pretty much cover any problem, especially if you can use the extra features in Photoshop.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

Gromit44

UK
730 posts

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#5. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 3

Gromit44 Registered since 04th Jan 2012
Wed 15-Feb-12 02:21 PM

>It's in 2.3......... Something that seems unfortunate to me is that it's a global setting rather than a local one (a la NR4).

Perhaps they'll release an update for v2.3 with an option to apply the moire reduction filter locally.

nikonus

Southern California, US
499 posts

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#6. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 2

nikonus Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 04th Feb 2007
Tue 14-Feb-12 02:53 AM | edited Tue 14-Feb-12 10:21 AM by nikonus

My spin was .... the difference between the two in detail or sharpness was minor .
Some smart sharpening or Topaz could bring in a bit more detail .

Hans K.

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jim thomas

Edmond, US
1322 posts

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#7. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 0

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Tue 14-Feb-12 10:10 PM

Thanks to everyone for your input. I am still undecided as to which camera better fits my needs. I like to shoot landscapes, portraits, American Indian dances (very elaborate and colorful dress, some with a lot of detail), wildlife (including birds), cityscapes and whatever else comes along. I am concerned that some fabrics on portrait subjects and dancers and feathers on some birds may present a moire problem. I understand that in some cases it is very difficult to remove. I am therefore leaning toward the D800. IF I could be confident that a bit of extra sharpening would allow one to bring the D800 sharpness up to that of the E model the decision would be easy. However, I don't know that that is the case. Bottom Line: I think I will wait until I see some reviews and tests before making a final decision.

JDT

TomCurious

Bay Area, US
2352 posts

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#8. "RE: Can Capture Sharpening Equilize the Sharpness of D800 with D800E?" | In response to Reply # 0

TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007
Wed 15-Feb-12 03:29 PM

With coarse structures (something that spans at least several pixels), the file from the E model would show sharper edges (more edge contrast). With some capture sharpening, the file from the non-E should provide the same result. Both will capture the same detail (as these are coarse structures).

Once you get to very fine structures, something just one or two pixels across (fine grain of sand, tiny spectral highlight etc), then the E model may capture more detail, but at the expense of accuracy. In other words, some of that detail may be faux (not real), and some may show up with a different color than the real subject. In most cases, such artifacts are not visible as such and may actually give the impression of a sharper and more detailed image (looking "nice"). The most egregious and example of faux detail is moire, of course. As it is caused by a repeating pattern of fine detail it is very visible (unlike some "wrong" pixel here and there), but it is also quite rare.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

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