Even though we ARE Nikon lovers,we are NOT affiliated with Nikon Corp. in any way.

English German French

Sign up Login
Home Forums Articles Galleries Recent Photos Contest Help Search News Workshops Shop Upgrade Membership Recommended
members
All members Wiki Contests Vouchers Apps Newsletter THE NIKONIAN™ Magazines Podcasts Fundraising

To 'E' or not to 'E'...

makiru

Manila, PH
102 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author
makiru Registered since 27th Feb 2008
Wed 29-Feb-12 07:01 AM

Please bear with me, as I am writing this as I am thinking (it’s OK, I’m sat down…). I will buy a D800 or a D800E, but I’m not sure which one. I have read what is already written about the removal of the AA filter on the ‘E’ and the proposed benefits regarding additional sharpness and dynamic range etc. I have also seen that Capture NX2 is bundled with the ‘E’.

However, considering the workflow, for me this poses a few questions:

1. The D800 has the AA filter in place and so will reduce moiré (according to statements I have read). If I buy the D800E, will I need to systematically run each picture through Capture NX2 to reduce the moiré (if, in fact, there is any and how will I really know what it looks like anyway, apart from what has been written as to what it’s supposed to look like…sorry…), or, just choose the ‘keepers’ and then just run the keepers’ through NX2.

2. If using NX2, how does this reduce the moiré? How is moiré in fact reduced? Can you vary the strength of the ‘reduction’? Will other software (CSxx, LRxx, eventually have this capability (there may already be a software out there, but as I’ve never worried about moiré before, I’ve never considered using it…).

3. If it (NX2) slightly blurs the image (to reduce the moiré) like the D800 which still has the AA filter in place, does this not somewhat defeat the object of having the AA filter ‘removed’?

4. If I have never really noticed moiré before (and to a certain degree, having a D800E, will I become more paranoid about inducing moiré…), will buying the D800 make me blissfully happy knowing that the moiré will be reduced in every photo just like on my trusty D3s (I can of course then slightly sharpen the keepers afterwards, as the AA filtered D800 is slightly blurring my pictures anyway…).

5. Will I really, hand on heart, be able to tell the difference between moiré and non moiré.

6. I’ve never considered moiré before until those dastardly Nikon technicians have now given me the choice…

As I have mentioned, I will buy a D800 or D800E mainly for all my tripod based photo’s, HDR, HDR pano’s, photo stacking, startrails etc. (the D4 later for all the other stuff…), but just can’t get my head around which one and what real benefits the ‘E’ will offer to someone who doesn’t really know what moiré would look like even if it got up and kissed him on the lips…

Any thoughts or further explanations as to ‘moiré’ you may have will be greatly received…

Regards,
Russ

Kidkett

Campo, US
442 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#1. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 0

Kidkett Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 09th Apr 2010
Wed 29-Feb-12 07:53 AM

Hi Russ,

Moire is not something that you see a lot. But when you do get it, it is sometimes really hard to get rid of sometimes. Sometime you can ruin your picture in the case that the moire has taken a good part of your picture. They give you software but wait and see how hard it is really too get it out of your pictures. I need to find the link of a web page that was trying to remove it in Photoshop so you can see what they did with a bad case of moire and what the out come was. The time she spent on trying to fix it and what she got, she would have been better to just re-shoot the picture.

If your even at tad worried about the problem with moire, I would just get the D800 and forget it. If you are a professional that has to have every last piece of detail out of your pictures and make six feet pictures and don't mind throwing away a picture maybe now and then, get the D 800E.

I don't really think there is going to be that much difference between the two cameras that most people would even know looking at pictures from one to the other. Your going to have so much detail out of ether camera, how much do you need. And I am sure there will always be some people that will want more.

Moire is easier to get out in dark colors than light ones. You need to look when taking pictures like a shiny man suit with a repeating pattern in it to make sure that it didn't get moire in it. If it does change the angle or move forward or backwards to get an angle that won't show any moire in your picture. You can get a filter for you lens, if you see it when your taking a picture. Most of the time you won't even know you have it until you put the picture on your computer. I will try to find that Photoshop link and post it here if I find it.

That is my $00.02.

Good Luck,
Bill

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Kidkett

Campo, US
442 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#2. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 0

Kidkett Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 09th Apr 2010
Wed 29-Feb-12 10:04 AM

Hi Russ,

Found the link, it is over two years old but I don’t think moiré has changed much in that time. She got most of it out but you can still see it, and the time she put into it. But she had to with wedding pictures to print. But remember that this can happen with any camera not only the D 800E, but it can happen with D 800 too. It is just a little bit easier with the D 800E. I don’t think you’re going to see much Moiré with ether camera depending on what you shoot. This will show you what Moiré looks like and what to look for.

How to Remove Mega Moiré: What is moiré, and how do you prevent or remove it?
By Jane Conner-ziser

http://www.pmai.org/PhotoShopTips.htm

Good Luck with your camera,
Bill

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

makiru

Manila, PH
102 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#3. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 2

makiru Registered since 27th Feb 2008
Wed 29-Feb-12 10:31 AM

Hello Bill,

Had a look at the link and yea, the moire is quite bad and 'only' 19 odd steps in Photoshop to get rid of it (OK, you can save it as an action)...

I would imagine NX2 may be able to do it a little quicker/simpler, but at end of the day, why worry if the camera can sort of do it for you, e.g. a D800 instead of the 'E'.

When the furore dies down and the camera finally gets out there, I'm sure people will look at moire (excuse the pun) in a bit more depth, but for me, a D800 somewhere on the Nikon production line has my name on it..

Thanks again for your response...

Regards,
Russ

Kidkett

Campo, US
442 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#4. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 3

Kidkett Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 09th Apr 2010
Wed 29-Feb-12 12:06 PM

Hi Russ,

I have my order in for the same. This will be such an improvement over my camera now I won’t know what to do with all of it. I have only had Moiré three or four times in the last three years and don’t even mess with these pictures. I print 20X30 pictures now and hope to go bigger with the D800 with a lot more detail. I will have to change my shooting habits for sure, but I am ready for that. I will be buying some new lens in the near future though. Now let’s see how long it takes to get the camera! This could very well be my last camera.

Waiting Patiently
Bill

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

T Spaulding

US
8 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#5. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 0

T Spaulding Registered since 21st Feb 2012
Wed 29-Feb-12 12:05 PM


>
>5. Will I really, hand on heart, be able to tell the
>difference between moiré and non moiré.
>

Another question you should ask: Will I really be able to tell a difference between the images I print using a D800 or D800e?

-Tom

Kidkett

Campo, US
442 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#6. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 5

Kidkett Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 09th Apr 2010
Wed 29-Feb-12 01:02 PM

Well Tom.

I print 20X30 prints from my D80 that looks fantastic when they are resized right. So I know that with all the detail I will be getting now has to put these pictures to shame. As to the sharpness between the two cameras what I have seen so far there isn’t that much difference to pay the extra, I guess we will have to wait and see.

But ether of these cameras would be enough for me as I am just looking for the detail, and what I would have gotten in pictures like these from my D80 on the D800. And I have been waiting for a better usable ISO. Some people can never get enough! This is it for me, the D3x was just too expensive and this is in my budget. Plus I already own Capture NX2.

Still Waiting Patiently,
Bill


Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)
Attachment#3 (jpg file)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

makiru

Manila, PH
102 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#7. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 5

makiru Registered since 27th Feb 2008
Wed 29-Feb-12 01:13 PM

Hello Tom,

...in the cold light of day, unlikely, so I'll end up saving something like 200 Euros..

Regards,
Russ

T Spaulding

US
8 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#8. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 7

T Spaulding Registered since 21st Feb 2012
Wed 29-Feb-12 02:20 PM

>Hello Tom,
>
>...in the cold light of day, unlikely, so I'll end up saving
>something like 200 Euros..
>
>Regards,
>Russ

Russ,

We both came to the same conclusion.

-Tom

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10631 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#9. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 0

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Wed 07-Mar-12 06:36 PM

I've been reading up on the 800/800E and will be getting the D800E.

My worry areas is feather detail in bird photography where moire may be an issue. I still have some concern about moire - specifically in this one area.

The NikonUSA website has some good discussion and examples of moire, but little in the context of fur or feathers. The issue comes up most often with architecture or on clothing with fine patterns.

The Leica M9 does not have an AA filter. This link to a Leica site provides come nice context about how rarely the issue comes up.
http://lavidaleica.com/content/anti-aliasing-filter-primer

I've also done a good bit of browsing on Leica forums and the consensus is that the problem is uncommon to rare. Now if I shot weddings, this would mean specific guidelines to the wedding party and family members to avoid wearing fine patterned clothing. I would also probably shoot the veil and other details with another camera part of the time.

As far as Capture NX2 is concerned, the latest release does have moire removal. It comes as a global setting under camera and lens corrections. You can choose the strength of correction desired - off, low, medium or high. I tried the setting with a dog photo looking at fur that had no moire - it did not make any difference at 100%.

So for me, I'm biting the bullet and going with the 800E. I have seen increased sharpness and heard that from Leica owners. My experience with a D200 converted for IR and removing the AA filter only has one image with moire out of about 10,000 shooting landscape and architecture. I'm going to try the moire removal tool on that image to see what happens.


Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

TomCurious

Bay Area, US
2352 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#10. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 9

TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007
Wed 07-Mar-12 07:08 PM

Eric, thanks for your informative post! Feather detail in birds is also one of my concerns, and a reason why I have not decided yet between the D800 and D800E.

With respect to Leica, I doubt that the lack of AA filter is the primary reason for the way Leica images look and their sharpness and contrast. I think the Leica lenses as well as the Kodak CCD sensor have more to do with it. Since there is no Leica with AA filter, we can't really determine the effect of the filter.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

agitater

Toronto, CA
4551 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#11. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 10

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Thu 08-Mar-12 12:32 AM

. . . and I've never seen anyone using a Leica for birding. Not the first choice of camera for that kind of subject matter. The typical Leica street shooter is usually unconcerned about moire.

Anyone who photographs birds and wants to capture the beautifully intricate details of the incredible variety of feathers should really lean toward the D800 IMO. It makes no sense at all to invite endless hours of moire filtering work in NX2 or Photoshop - work which may end up softening everything slightly. You're likely to end up with superb D800 bird photos when using a D800E. Feathers invite moire optical effects, so why bother with a camera which will aggravate the situation? IMO that is.

My Photo.Net Gallery
My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10631 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#12. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 11

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Thu 08-Mar-12 12:52 AM

Howard

You are quite right - if this turns into a problem on 1-2% of the images, that's still too much since moire will invariably always show up on the "money shots". But if the incidence of moire is 0.1% or less, bird photography will be an area where any extra detail really pays off big.

I'm inclined to roll the dice a bit. In examining my bird photos, the really visible feather patterns are confined to a small percentage of images - very close or macro. Those are rare enough that it might be okay.

I'd really like to have more opinions - especially from anyone who has ever seen moire in feathers or fur.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

agitater

Toronto, CA
4551 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#13. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 12

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Thu 08-Mar-12 01:44 AM

> But if the
>incidence of moire is 0.1% or less, bird photography will be
>an area where any extra detail really pays off big.
>
>I'm inclined to roll the dice a bit. In examining my bird
>photos, the really visible feather patterns are confined to a
>small percentage of images - very close or macro. Those are
>rare enough that it might be okay.

You may be referring to the general incidence of moire across all photographic subjects? If so, I think it's worth keeping in mind that such averages are bracketed by categories with much higher incidences and much lower incidences of moire. I think that buying a D800 for its amazingly high resolution invites a concentration on photographically capturing subjects possessed of very fine detail, complex patterns and textural juxtapositions - bird feathers among other things - subject matter which can cause moire.

My Photo.Net Gallery
My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson

KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
4962 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#14. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 13

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006
Thu 08-Mar-12 11:36 AM

For some reason, Thom thinks bird feathers might be OK and I hope he is correct It was just a quick comment one day on his blog saying that there is enough irregularity in feathers, them being non-man-made, that he thought it would be OK. He may be basing it on his assistant who has been shooting a non-AA D3X (and other non-AA cameras) for a while now. Eric please keep us posted with your 800E experiences!

I have four areas of my shooting I have potential concerns about:
- bird feathers;
- architecture. I tend do shoot this while on vacations with wife and family.
- video. On TV the other day on a reality-TV show I saw some ghastly moire on a guys suit that was glowing and weaving (Imagine moire that writhes and pulses) It was a nightmare, the guy looked like a clown with a pulsing suit. I believe Nikon implies the 800E video won't be any more prone than the 800 for video moire due to "processing" IIRC.
- fabrics on actors on stage. This latter one though, I am rationalizing away because I would be typically shooting at least ISO 3200 in low light and one starts to lose detail at very high ISO, so I think it just won't provoke the high frequency detail that causes moire. Any comments on this high ISO theory of mine?

We already know that stopping down to invoke diffraction or changing angles and distance will eliminate moire (if you happen to detect it at shooting time). How about the high ISO theory - with the associated loss of detail, will that prevent moire also?

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10631 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#15. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 14

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Thu 08-Mar-12 02:01 PM

I could see higher ISO impacting dynamic range and leading to less moire, but I'm not sure that is a big factor. Moire removal tools and technique will probably be the main ways to avoid moire.

I expect fabrics will be a problem area. It could mean that we build a series of examples of problem fabrics that mean simply using an alternate camera. Photographers recognize problem light, reflective surfaces, etc. Those in this specialty area will quickly recognize problem fabrics. We will certainly have instructions from photographers for portraits that include some discussion of fabrics that are good for photos. Weddings probably fall into this category. I could see using a different camera for some images if the bride or attendants are wearing satin or raw silk.


Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
4962 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#16. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 15

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006
Fri 09-Mar-12 12:01 PM

Here's the kind of Theatre High ISO shot I would have to keep an eye on. What do you guys think (this is D700 ISO 5000).



Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)

TomCurious

Bay Area, US
2352 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#17. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 14

TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007
Thu 08-Mar-12 05:23 PM

Bird feathers will surely not trigger large areas of moire, since they are somewhat irregular, as Thom has pointed out. It will likely be more like speckles and a few lines of wrong color, maybe not very visible, but wrong nonetheless.

Thom Hogan also qualified his comments that it should be rare to get moire that is plainly visible in the final image. You may get small color errors in many places that are not very apparent.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10631 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#18. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 17

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Thu 08-Mar-12 05:36 PM

Tom

Increasingly I think you are correct that moire on feathers will be rare. The advantage with birds is that there are so many feathers at slightly different angles, by definition moire on one feather will likely mean no moire on the others.

That's good new for me.


Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
My Gallery
Workshops

Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

PaintedRays

Oregon, US
81 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#19. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 0

PaintedRays Silver Member Nikonian since 24th Oct 2011
Thu 08-Mar-12 01:23 PM

Lightroom 4 reportedly has a new Moire removal brush. I suspect this was added because of the D800E. I am watching the Kelby Media group for reports of how well this works. I suspect it will be all that's needed.

www.paintedrays.com

TomCurious

Bay Area, US
2352 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#20. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 19

TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007
Thu 08-Mar-12 05:24 PM

It's interesting that Scott Kelby is buying a D800 for himself. He has written in his blog about his decision.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian


http://www.tkphoto.me/

MotoMannequin

Livermore, CA, US
8582 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to send message via AOL IM

#21. "RE: To 'E' or not to 'E'..." | In response to Reply # 20

MotoMannequin Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Registered since 11th Jan 2006
Fri 09-Mar-12 02:14 PM

>It's interesting that Scott Kelby is buying a D800 for
>himself. He has written in his blog about his decision.

He also lists "fashion" as one of his main subjects, which makes the D800 really a no-brainer.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

G