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D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?

Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Mon 05-Mar-12 10:37 PM

I've not seen that spec, have I missed it?

Thanks,

Rob

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agitater

Toronto, CA
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#1. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 0

agitater Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007
Mon 05-Mar-12 09:56 PM | edited Mon 05-Mar-12 09:57 PM by agitater

The only detail I've read so far is that HDMI output is uncompressed. No HDMI bit rate or frame rate is spec'd anywhere as far as I can tell.

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Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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#2. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 1

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Tue 06-Mar-12 06:59 PM

Thanks Howard, just askin'.

Rob

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epicdream

Cambridge, UK
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#3. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 2

epicdream Silver Member Charter Member
Tue 06-Mar-12 09:10 PM

I found an interesting article about the D800 here:

www.dslrnewsshooter.com/2012/02/29/notes-on-the-nikon-d800/

It also links to an article about the D4 where they tested a pre-production model. They say it outputs the 25p/30p as 1080i, whether that is at 60i or 50i, I don't know.

I'd be interested to find the answer to this too as I plan to use it with an Atomos Ninja or Samurai.

The good news is that there doesn't appear to be a problem with the DP6 monitor.

I await with baited breath...

Neill

Website: www.epicdream.co.uk

Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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#4. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 3

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Wed 07-Mar-12 02:57 AM

Hi Neil,

Isn't P the 'ish and I, a standard for SD? Or am I missing something?

Rob

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epicdream

Cambridge, UK
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#5. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 4

epicdream Silver Member Charter Member
Wed 07-Mar-12 06:22 AM

Well, so I'm led to believe, that 25p and 30p frame modes aren't officially supported within the HDMI spec. So what happens is that the camera sends the progressive signal as 25PsF or 30PsF, which is the 25p/30p frame rates in a 50/60 interlaced wrapper.

You don't lose any quality but there is a little faffing around at the edit stage (edit in 50i/60i and keep the field order at none or progressive). Your 25p or 30p signal is still there.

Sorry if this has moved away from the photo aspect of the D800 but, for me, this is quite important and still relates to the D800.

Neill

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Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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#6. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 5

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Thu 08-Mar-12 05:28 PM

Thanks Neil,

Wrappers, OK, should have been onto that. Edit as None/Progressive and I frames transcode via CineForm.

This is a legitimate question for the D800 crew, as many here are looking to Video as well as stills.

Thanks,

Rob

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DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
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#7. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 5

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Thu 08-Mar-12 11:25 PM | edited Thu 08-Mar-12 11:25 PM by DVDMike

25p and 30p frame modes aren't officially supported within the HDMI spec.

Fist of all in the USA, we use 24 FPS (23.997) or 30 FPS (29.997), not 25. 24 comes from the crank speed of the original movie films and has remained in use do this day, even in digital motion pictures. 25p or 50i was not used in the USA but perhaps this is the standard in the UK and other countries.

But are you suggesting that progressive video is not supported over HDMI? This is the first that I have ever heard that Progressive video is NOT supported over HDMI or that there is some sort of quality issue from converting progressive frames to fields and splicing them back to progressive frames again at the TV. Where are you getting this information from?

I'm no expert but I do know that when I play a blu-ray disc it says that it outputs a 1080 line progressive video over my HDMI cable to my progressive 1080p TV. I am not sure if it is 24fps (source frame rate for film) or 30 fps, but it is certainly supposed to be progressive. I would tend to doubt that my blu-ray player is taking 2 Progressive video frames and converting them to interlaced fields before it passes them through the HDMI to the TV. This is something that I have never heard of before.

According to this web site, http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx#32, it appears that HDMI has always supported 1080P video: "HDMI has always supported 1080p resolution, starting from version 1.0 in 2002."

DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
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#8. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 4

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Thu 08-Mar-12 11:34 PM


"P" means progressive, ie full "frames" and not "interlaced". Standard Definition (SD) can be progressive or interlaced depending on the source and/or viewing device. Typically, SD material is (in the USA) considered to be about 480 vertical lines of resolution maximum (although NTSC does officially support more), where as HD is at least 720.

I think the D800 has the option of recording at SD or HD formats, but I do not know what the HDMI direct output is, but I would guess that it matches whatever setting that you have it to record to. Both your resolution, frame rate and i/p settings will probably output at whatever you set them to record at. But this is just a guess. Even my D3 can send a video feed out at either 720p or 1080i and I am pretty sure that 1080i is 60 fields per second and 720p is 30 frames per second for the D3. The D800 also may be able to output directly at 24 frames per second. If so, this will be of significant interest to filmmakers and I would guess that it does allow this ability.

epicdream

Cambridge, UK
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#9. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 8

epicdream Silver Member Charter Member
Fri 09-Mar-12 06:44 AM

Thanks Mike,

Looks like i'm getting mixed messages about the HDMI spec, as I know my home cinema does 1080p over HDMI but it seems different for recording and cameras.
http://atomos.activehosted.com/kb/article/input-sources/framerates-24p-25p-30p-etc/25p-and-25psf-explained

Let me clear up something, we are talking about uncompressed, 8-bit, 422 HD 1080p video here, not SD or HD at 720p. I am well aware of the differences between the formats.

My D7000 would only output 720p in record mode and then 1080i on playback, not 1080p.

I'm sure you don't have any need for 25p or 50i in your area and that's fine but in my job, I do, here in the UK.


Neill

Website: www.epicdream.co.uk

DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
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#10. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 9

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Fri 09-Mar-12 09:31 AM

The atomos link has nothing to to with the HDMI spec, just how D-SLR cameras have been outputting over HDMI to this point. There is another link here: http://atomos.activehosted.com/kb/article/samurai/1004-how-most-cameras-output-24p-from-the-hdsdi-and-hdmi-ports too. This is just a camera output and again has nothing to do with what HDMI is capable of.

I suspect the D800 is different in this regard than previous models since it touts uncompressed live video over HDMI. I'm assuming that the D800 will be about to output at 1080p over HDMI for the live video at least. But this will be something to watch for.

If it turns out that the D800 can output 1080p-30p/24p and outputs over HDMI in the 4-2-2 color space, this will be an impressive video device for sure for film-makers who want to capture uncompressed video. For the rest of us, 1080p compressed video using the file on the card, should be pretty darn good too.

epicdream

Cambridge, UK
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#11. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 10

epicdream Silver Member Charter Member
Fri 09-Mar-12 09:46 AM

If you read the link in my first post you would have noticed someone who has tested pre-production samples of both the D800 and the D4, he claims that both are the same for video and as the D4 appears to output 1080i, there is no reason why the D800 should be any different.
Check the comments section:
http://www.dslrnewsshooter.com/2012/01/07/nikons-james-banfield-demonstrates-the-video-functions-of-the-d4/

Again, these are pre-production samples, Nikon might change the final spec (but I personally doubt it).

Neill

Website: www.epicdream.co.uk

Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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#12. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 8

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Fri 09-Mar-12 06:47 AM | edited Fri 09-Mar-12 03:32 PM by Robman3

Mike thanks,

I suppose I could have looked all of that up, sometimes it is best to ask others here.

The debate lingers now with the 5DIII, using I slices/frames only for output and the native ISO hitting 25,000+.

That will still only output 4.2.0 but the Canon set infers that moire/aliasing are all but eliminated in the new body,plus the high ISO is "noise" free. A compelling case for film makers.

TBD I suppose, and the difference for the D800 still has no ready answers, as to the density for the native MP files in FX, or DX mode as far as actual hands on testing is concerned. 36 for the 800, 24 for the MK3 and 18 for the D4.

Nikon also touts negligible moire etc, plus the direct HDMI out, so we'll see which compression algorithms are static via these new sensors, in actual real time.

So far, the videos from both brands are impressive and would be, given that crew aspects, are used to stage promo content.

Time will tell.

Thanks again,

Rob



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epicdream

Cambridge, UK
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#13. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 12

epicdream Silver Member Charter Member
Fri 09-Mar-12 07:23 AM

Unfortunately it's all up in the air until both models hit the market and comparisons can be made. Speculation is fine but at the end of the day, it's still just speculation.

Neill

Website: www.epicdream.co.uk

Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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#14. "RE: D800: Does anyone know the frame rate of the HDMI 4.2.2 output?" | In response to Reply # 13

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Fri 09-Mar-12 03:52 PM

Yep and Bob's yer' uncle then.

Thanks!

Rob

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G