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mobius32

US
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mobius32 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009
Wed 08-Feb-12 06:37 PM

My comments/questions are about D800 and weddings. When I think about the D800 in the context of landscapes, studio work, and architecture might the camera makes sense. But I keep reading and hearing people say that the D800 will be great for wedding photographers, and, well, this one isn't so clear to me.

Maybe I'm missing something, but perhaps someone can explain to me why this is so.

My sense of weddings is that the light is often problematic, i.e. not enough of it! (Just humor me and, for purposes of this question, put aside any thoughts of being able to use additional off-camera lighting.) So, for me, if a camera is a "good camera for wedding photographers" then it should have very good low-light ability. While I don't expect the D800 to have the low-light ability of the D4 (or even D3s), I wonder whether it will have the ability of even the D700 at, say, between ISO 800/1000 and 3200 (and that would be great if the D800 matched the D700 in this ISO range).

One of the D800 beta testers (http://weblog.robvanpetten.com/archive/nikon-d800) said this:

"The inherent file size can require some unusual treatment. The large capture can make the camera sensitive to vibration more than smaller cameras, requiring faster shutter speeds or a tripod. Even in the studio with flash, I used a tripod on shots done with a 200mm F/2 lens."

This beta tester is more of studio/fashion photographer, but I thought the comment very noteworthy in the context of weddings.

Additionally, yes, I have read that some say if you down sample the 36mp image it might actually increase sharpness ... and some say that down sampling improves ISO and results in a better 12mp image than does a 12mp camera ... and that down sampling is easily accomplished via Lightroom or PS ... but something about the idea of buying a 36mp camera to use it at 12mp just seems/feels odd. Of course, I wouldn't think that any competent wedding photographer would shoot a wedding with the expectation that down sampling is going to save focus/movement/narrow depth of field errors. But if one's explanation for why this is a great wedding camera heavily relies on the benefits of down sampling, well, I might wonder whether this a camera for the professional (or less than professional) wedding photographer.

I'm curious to know whether those who snap weddings with, say, a digital Hasselblad, regularly down sample. Maybe they do; I don't know.

Anyway, this might just be my hangup. The D800 hasn't even been widely tested yet and further tests might alleviate my puzzlement; but at the moment I'm not sold that this is a good camera for wedding photographers. I'm not saying it's not, just not saying it is.

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2817 posts

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#1. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 08-Feb-12 07:01 PM

I assume that 5 years ago, wedding photographers were succesfully shooting weddings and getting paid. I am also going to assume that many of them were doing so with DSLRs.

Given that, I would be reasonably certain that the D800 is going to be superior in every measureable way than a camera of 5 years ago. Thus, it stands to reason that one should be able to shoot weddings successfully with a D800.

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mobius32

US
271 posts

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#2. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 1

mobius32 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009
Wed 08-Feb-12 07:39 PM

>I assume that 5 years ago, wedding photographers were
>succesfully shooting weddings and getting paid. I am also
>going to assume that many of them were doing so with DSLRs.
>
>Given that, I would be reasonably certain that the D800 is
>going to be superior in every measureable way than a camera of
>5 years ago. Thus, it stands to reason that one should be
>able to shoot weddings successfully with a D800.

Hello Perrone:

Fair enough if your belief is that the D800 will be a good camera for weddings and I am not/did not saying/say definitively that it won't be; but I respectfully say that I don't think you've provided any reason for why it will be simply by stating that because one camera is 5 years older than another the latter will be inferior in every meaningful measurable way when compared against the former.

I think you might agree that solely measuring "specs" isn't the the final word on whether one camera is better than another for a particular purpose. For example, if the D800's pixel count more readily exposes camera movement -- as one of the beta testers indicated -- for me think that's a meaningful consideration. Low-light considerations are another -- and while we await real world examples, there's no reason to assume that the D800 will be better than the D700 in low-light situations (or, to use your criteria, better at every step up the ISO ladder). By your reasoning, in two more years the D800 of today will have a better low-light capability than today's D3s; for that to be the case, we'd of course now need to see that the D800 is better in low-light than is the D3s. Perhaps you didn't intend such a blanket statement; but if you did, this is why I disagree with it (this is all disagreement with a small D as this is simply a camera discussion forum ).

In any event, my initial post wasn't that one could not shoot a wedding with D800. And my post obviously reflects what I believe (accurate or not) to be one of the more important considerations for a wedding photographer: a camera's low-light ability.




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LMMiller9

Potomac, US
1169 posts

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#3. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 2

LMMiller9 Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2005
Wed 08-Feb-12 07:50 PM

The truth is that until we take delivery of a few of these, and can do some side by side comparative shots of the D800 to the D700 we aren't really going to know whether 100-6400 ISO rating is truly equivalent.

I am hoping that it is roughly equivalent. Then, you have all of the other advantages of this camera. As a wedding photographer I would like that it would be advantageous to be able to shoot video as part of your package that you sell to your clients. I would also assume that many of the settings during a complete shoot would include an outdoor reception, times when you can use flash, as well as the church setting where you must rely on high ISO.

I think this is also a case when that VR lens is really going to come in handy. I can see the 70-200/2.6 II with active VR being a huge advantage in that church and with all those megapixels. I think the capabilities of this camera will cause you to favor those VR lenses.

Larry Miller, Potomac, MD
DF/D810
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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2817 posts

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#4. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 2

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 08-Feb-12 08:27 PM

>Hello Perrone:
>
>Fair enough if your belief is that the D800 will be a good
>camera for weddings and I am not/did not saying/say
>definitively that it won't be; but I respectfully say that I
>don't think you've provided any reason for why it will be
>simply by stating that because one camera is 5 years older
>than another the latter will be inferior in every meaningful
>measurable way when compared against the former.

Do we have reason to believe that the D800 will be WORSE than the D700? People have already stated that the pixel density will be similar to the D7000. Which I have shot at ISO3200 and sold photos at that ISO.


>I think you might agree that solely measuring
>"specs" isn't the the final word on whether one
>camera is better than another for a particular purpose.

Completely agree. But since none of us have D800 to do hands on comparisons at the moment, that's all I have to go on. I have seen the ISO 3200 photos from the D800 online, and it certainly looks every bit as good as I would have expected.

>For
>example, if the D800's pixel count more readily exposes camera
>movement -- as one of the beta testers indicated -- for me
>think that's a meaningful consideration.

Perhaps, but likely not. People have been shooting 4x5 and 6x7 hand held for YEARS. And the resolution of both trumps what the D800 is offering.

>Low-light
>considerations are another -- and while we await real world
>examples, there's no reason to assume that the D800 will be
>better than the D700 in low-light situations (or, to use your
>criteria, better at every step up the ISO ladder).

I didn't say the D800 would be better than the D700. I said a DSLR of 5 years ago. Was the D700 available 5 years ago?

>By your
>reasoning, in two more years the D800 of today will have a
>better low-light capability than today's D3s; for that to be
>the case, we'd of course now need to see that the D800 is
>better in low-light than is the D3s. Perhaps you didn't
>intend such a blanket statement; but if you did, this is why I
>disagree with it (this is all disagreement with a small D as
>this is simply a camera discussion forum ).

I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that the D800s would exceed the capabilities of the D3s. The question is whether Nikon will market and sell it.

>
>In any event, my initial post wasn't that one could not shoot
>a wedding with D800. And my post obviously reflects what I
>believe (accurate or not) to be one of the more important
>considerations for a wedding photographer: a camera's
>low-light ability.

Here's the thing. If low-light ability is of paramount importance, why not buy a D3s or a D4? I had the same issues shooting night sporting events and indoor events. So I bought a pair of D3s cameras. They allow me to do my job and get paid. If I was shooting weddings where I had to deal with dark environments, I'd do the same. Buy the camera that suits the job. If the D800 won't do the job, get something that will. No harm done.

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Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6134 posts

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#5. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Wed 08-Feb-12 07:57 PM | edited Wed 08-Feb-12 07:59 PM by Arkayem

Interesting points that I have done quite a bit of thinking about!

>My comments/questions are about D800 and weddings. When I
>think about the D800 in the context of landscapes, studio
>work, and architecture might the camera makes sense. But I
>keep reading and hearing people say that the D800 will be
>great for wedding photographers, and, well, this one isn't so
>clear to me.
>
>Maybe I'm missing something, but perhaps someone can explain
>to me why this is so.
>
>My sense of weddings is that the light is often problematic,
>i.e. not enough of it! (Just humor me and, for purposes of
>this question, put aside any thoughts of being able to use
>additional off-camera lighting.) So, for me, if a camera is a
>"good camera for wedding photographers" then it
>should have very good low-light ability. While I don't expect
>the D800 to have the low-light ability of the D4 (or even
>D3s), I wonder whether it will have the ability of even the
>D700 at, say, between ISO 800/1000 and 3200 (and that would be
>great if the D800 matched the D700 in this ISO range).

I'm a wedding photographer, and you are right that high ISO performance is critical. However, I believe that the D800 will be usable up to ISO 6400. Looking back through my last 100,000 or so wedding pics taken with my D3, only a tiny portion were at ISO 6400. Quite a few were at ISO 3200, so I believe a wedding camera MUST be clean(able) to ISO 3200. So, from a high ISO performance standpoint, I think the D800 is fine.

> One of the D800 beta testers
>(http://weblog.robvanpetten.com/archive/nikon-d800) said
>this:
>
>"The inherent file size can require some unusual
>treatment. The large capture can make the camera sensitive to
>vibration more than smaller cameras, requiring faster shutter
>speeds or a tripod. Even in the studio with flash, I used a
>tripod on shots done with a 200mm F/2 lens."

It is true that if you look at a 36MP image at 100% on your computer, you will be able to see the tiniest camera motion or focus inaccuracy, and that may cause the image to look blurry. However, if you look at them at the same maginification as another camera, they will be exactly the same sharpness. For instance to properly compare them to a D3, you will look at the D3 at 100% and the D800 at 58%. Then, you will likely see that they are exactly the same. This means that a print of the same size will look identical from both if you are indeed camera motion limited.

This also means that unless you improve something, the extra megapixels are wasted. In other words, you will get images of the same quality as with your D3. But you certainly won't get worse quality!

Medium format camera shooters have dealt with this for years. You have to use better tripods and faster shutter speeds in order to be able to benefit from the extra megapixels.

>This beta tester is more of studio/fashion photographer, but I
>thought the comment very noteworthy in the context of
>weddings.

In the wedding environment, shots of the ceremony don't need any improvement over my D3, so handholding will be fine.

However, for the formals and portraits, I want more detail than I can get with my D3, so I will have to use a good tripod to gain any improvement. Right now, I normally handhold, and with a D800 I probably wouldn't be able to do that.

>Additionally, yes, I have read that some say if you down
>sample the 36mp image it might actually increase sharpness ...
>and some say that down sampling improves ISO and results in a
>better 12mp image than does a 12mp camera ... and that down
>sampling is easily accomplished via Lightroom or PS

This is absolutely true, and this is how you can use the D800 for wedding ceremonies when you know you won't need 40x60 prints.

>... but
>something about the idea of buying a 36mp camera to use it at
>12mp just seems/feels odd. Of course, I wouldn't think that
>any competent wedding photographer would shoot a wedding with
>the expectation that down sampling is going to save
>focus/movement/narrow depth of field errors.

The way I look at it is that the more advanced the machine, the more different ways it can be used. The D800, just like medium format cameras, will be used in many ways to make many different levels of image quality. The extra resolution from the 36MP will only be needed in certain situations, like studio portraits, wedding formals, and landscapes where you can never have enough resolution.

>I'm curious to know whether those who snap weddings with, say,
>a digital Hasselblad, regularly down sample. Maybe they do; I
>don't know.

Yes! They most certainly do!! The high ISO performance is not too good at full resolution on the medium format cameras. ISO 800 is usually max. Downsampling is the only way to get usable available light images in dark churches with a medium format.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10646 posts

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#6. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 5

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Wed 08-Feb-12 09:05 PM

One thing that is being missed in the discussion of "downsizing" is that the client drives the size of the final print. Downsizing is simply putting both cameras on equal footing. You can upsize the D700/D3, or downsize the D800 but the resulting prints are in equal size for the client - unless of course you market specific images from the D800 that are at lower ISO levels.

Eric Bowles
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hujiie

US
597 posts

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#7. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 6

hujiie Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Apr 2009
Wed 08-Feb-12 10:32 PM | edited Wed 08-Feb-12 11:21 PM by hujiie

In wedding, most of us have 2 bodies, though mostly these are different lenses.
I am starting to be convinced that the best way at least for me is to upgrade one to d800e and one with proven low light camera including D700, D3 and D4 (??) for wedding.
Now I have 2x D700 and will upgrade one to d800e. Ideally, I would like other d700 to be D3 or D4 for the best...if I have some $ left....

www.hitoshiujiie.com/photography.html

fsk

DE
81 posts

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#8. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 7

fsk Registered since 27th Mar 2008
Thu 09-Feb-12 09:13 AM

I'll throw in two additional benefits for a D800 as a wedding camera:

Weddings start usually during daytime so harsh lighting conditions might be something to cope with as well. So a high DR around the base ISO to hold details in the highlights is one benefit that it shares with the best DSLRs in this regard like the D4 or, to a lesser extend, a D7000.

Another unique advantage: Mount a fast prime and crop happy. This flexibility might compensate for some low light weeknesses.

And when you need the details for the formal shots under more controlled conditions you have them build in.

The only downside besides a lower frame rate at this point for me would be the PP slowdown when dealing with the massive file size of +1000 shots...

Frank

www.fskphotography.de

mobius32

US
271 posts

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#9. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 8

mobius32 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009
Thu 09-Feb-12 11:00 AM

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences/speculations/estimations. Precisely what I wanted to hear.

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DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
2225 posts

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#10. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 8

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Fri 10-Feb-12 01:28 AM | edited Fri 10-Feb-12 01:29 AM by DVDMike

Another unique advantage: Mount a fast prime and crop happy.

I have really been dreaming of purchasing the 24 f/1.4 lens for weddings. I used to own the 28 1.4. I sold it for more than I paid for it and I rented it several times after I sold it. While this lens was great for creating a shallow DOF and subject isolation, sharpness was not its strong suite. I think that the 24 would not have this issue. And mounting it on a 36 MP camera for a large portion of the reception would give me a lot of flexibility with post cropping. I am really excited at this possibility. But the 24 is 2/3 the price of the D800. I might have to rent the lens for a while....

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6134 posts

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#11. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 6

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 11:15 AM

>Downsizing is simply putting both cameras on
>equal footing.

Downsizing does more than equalize the sharpness. Downsizing also reduces noise - a lot! This means that if you have a noisy ISO 6400 image from the D800, once you downsize it, the noise disappears. This probably does not require full downsizing to equalize with the size of the other camera, which would then result in a larger clean print, even at ISO 6400.

In fact, this downsizing process is sometimes used to remove grain from film. The negative is scanned at super high resolution, and then the image is downsized. The grain completely disappears leaving a clean sharp image.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

mobius32

US
271 posts

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#12. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 11

mobius32 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009
Thu 09-Feb-12 12:02 PM | edited Thu 09-Feb-12 12:11 PM by briantilley



Russ:

Is this noise reduction much smoother/cleaner than one would be able to do via software?

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ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10646 posts

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#13. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 12

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Thu 09-Feb-12 12:34 PM

It's incremental and beyond anything you can do in software. You can push software further since you have extra pixels and detail. Then you will be downsizing to print size which further concentrates pixels.

Take two images - one 12MP image and one 36MP - and produce the same size print. The 36MP image will have 3 pixels for every one on the smaller image file. The noise will be smaller and less visible with the larger file downsized.

The order of your steps are also important. You want to remove noise and then downsize.

Also keep in mind that even if you don't use the extra step of downsizing, the noise would be very small and hard to notice if you are working from a large file.


Eric Bowles
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mobius32

US
271 posts

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#14. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 13

mobius32 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jul 2009
Thu 09-Feb-12 01:05 PM | edited Thu 09-Feb-12 02:54 PM by briantilley


Thanks, Eric.

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callaloomix

US
133 posts

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#15. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 11

callaloomix Registered since 12th Jun 2008
Thu 09-Feb-12 12:05 PM

Here's some real life samples of the D800 in wedding use.

http://www.cmphotography.com/blog.cfm

I can't see much fault in the high iso shots.

Neil

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10646 posts

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#16. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 11

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Thu 09-Feb-12 12:14 PM

Exactly - And DxO measurements put the impact of downsizing at approximately 1.6 stops for the D3x.

I was actually quite surprised when I saw the impact of downsizing on noise.

It would be really interesting to see a distribution of ISO levels actually used for a normal set of weddings.

Eric Bowles
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Kentcrawford

Fort Worth, US
40 posts

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#17. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

Kentcrawford Registered since 21st Oct 2011
Thu 09-Feb-12 12:21 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The D800 may be a great new body and many will love it but many people (including myself) who were expecting a D700 replacement , will be left scratching their heads. I, for one, wanted an improved D700. This is a completely different animal. If you were shooting a D3s, the D4 is an obvious upgrade. If you were shooting a D700, the D800 is not at all. Where is the low-light capable FX for less than $5000.00 now?

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nikonian10

Winnipeg, CA
105 posts

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#18. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 17

nikonian10 Registered since 30th Oct 2008
Thu 09-Feb-12 01:05 PM

More photos and a bit of review from Cliff M
http://www.cmphotography.com/blog.cfm

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Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
6134 posts

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#19. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 17

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 01:25 PM

>I've said it before and I'll say it again. The D800 may be a
>great new body and many will love it but many people
>(including myself) who were expecting a D700 replacement ,
>will be left scratching their heads. I, for one, wanted an
>improved D700. This is a completely different animal. If you
>were shooting a D3s, the D4 is an obvious upgrade. If you were
>shooting a D700, the D800 is not at all.

It depends on what you consider the most important.

I think that Nikon decided that ISO 6400 is all that is needed on the D700 replacememt, and that's what the D800 has. The areas they targeted for improvement were resolution, video, and focus. Those areas are obvious improvements over the D700.

I was going to upgrade from my D3 to a D4, mostly for the resolution increase and not the noise improvement. However, the D800 has double the resolution of the D4 with better focusing and equal high ISO performance. That sold me on it for my portrait and wedding business.

Russ
Nikonian Team Member
Russell MacDonald Photography
Nikon CLS Practical Guide

Ned_L

Philadelphia, US
8057 posts

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#20. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 19

Ned_L Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, especially Travel Photography Charter Member
Fri 16-Mar-12 02:40 PM

>I think that Nikon decided that ISO 6400 is all that is needed
>on the D700 replacememt, and that's what the D800 has. The
>areas they targeted for improvement were resolution, video,
>and focus. Those areas are obvious improvements over the
>D700.

I think you are exactly right Russ.

>I was going to upgrade from my D3 to a D4, mostly for the
>resolution increase and not the noise improvement. However,
>the D800 has double the resolution of the D4 with better
>focusing and equal high ISO performance. That sold me on it
>for my portrait and wedding business.

I agree. For those who's primary photography is portraits, weddings, and landscapes, the D800 is the ideal upgrade. For those worrying about noise with this upgrade, they should stop worrying. It's high ISO/low noise performance will be just what the doctor ordered.

For me, as a travel photographer, who also does some news coverage, plus being out at least weekly for wildlife photography, I'm going with the D4 to replace my D700 which is nearing the end of its life. With the D4 I'm getting an improvement in resolution, and keeping the high speed capability I use constantly, and am maintaining great essential high ISO/low noise. Plus now I'll have video capability in my DSLR which I didn't have, for travel and news clips.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

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RRRoger

Monterey Bay, US
3373 posts

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#21. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 17

RRRoger Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his long history of demonstrated excellence and helping other members with equipment, technique and DSLR video in the true Nikonians spirit. Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 01:34 PM

I think the D800 is going to beat the D700 in every way but frame speed and I shoot at 4fps now so that will not effect me.
Improvements in focus speed, white balance accuracy, face detection, and active-D lighting will make up for having to use a higher shutter speed.
It will be great for capturing fine detail when there are a large number of people in the picture.
And more potential customers are asking me if I do Video at weddings.

But the ultimate camera will be the "low light" D4.


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ScottChapin

Powder Springs/ATL, US
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#22. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 21

ScottChapin Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in various areas, including Aviation and Birds Photography Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 04:47 PM

I don't know about event video like weddings. That's where I think DSLRs fall woefully short in ther video capabilities. At a maximum record time of 30 minutes, you will probably miss some of the ceremony...yikes!

I was under the impression that the record time is limited due to the sensor heating up. Does that mean there has to be a cooling down time between sessions? I don't think it's quite ready for prime time.

Scott Chapin
Powder Springs, GA, USA

Nikonians Team Member

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2817 posts

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#23. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 22

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Thu 09-Feb-12 05:14 PM

>I don't know about event video like weddings. That's where I
>think DSLRs fall woefully short in ther video capabilities. At
>a maximum record time of 30 minutes, you will probably miss
>some of the ceremony...yikes!
>
>I was under the impression that the record time is limited due
>to the sensor heating up. Does that mean there has to be a
>cooling down time between sessions? I don't think it's quite
>ready for prime time.

Record time historically has been limited due to EU regulations taxing cameras differently based on whether they record less than 30 minutes or more. However, sensor heating is another issue certainly.

These DSLRs as far as video has been concerned have been pushed by those in the film market. Where takes are generally several seconds to something no longer than 3-4 minutes. In that context, the 30 minute limit is a non-issue. As was the previous 12 minute limit of the Canon DSLRs and the 8 minute limit of the Nikons.

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Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
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#24. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 22

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 06:13 PM | edited Thu 09-Feb-12 06:13 PM by Arkayem

>I don't know about event video like weddings. That's where I
>think DSLRs fall woefully short in ther video capabilities. At
>a maximum record time of 30 minutes, you will probably miss
>some of the ceremony...yikes!

My clients are asking for video clips, not full-blown video coverage. They want stills and video of certain key parts of the ceremony. The kiss, father giving away the bride, 1st dance, and cake cutting are the most requested. They want them integrated into a slide show with stills.

Russ
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RRRoger

Monterey Bay, US
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#25. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 24

RRRoger Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his long history of demonstrated excellence and helping other members with equipment, technique and DSLR video in the true Nikonians spirit. Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 06:37 PM

Quote>>I don't know about event video like weddings. That's
>where I
>>think DSLRs fall woefully short in their video
>capabilities. At
>>a maximum record time of 30 minutes, you will probably
>miss
>>some of the ceremony...yikes!end Quote<<

>
Quote>My clients are asking for video clips, not full-blown video
>coverage. They want stills and video of certain key parts of
>the ceremony. The kiss, father giving away the bride, 1st
>dance, and cake cutting are the most requested. They want them
>integrated into a slide show with stills.
>
>Russ<<Quote<<

What I am thinking is that if you had your D800 set up for Video on a tripod and Start/Stop recording with a wireless remote, You could be taking stills with your D4 at the same time.
20 minute or less segments would work just fine.
You might even want a second D800 to record the guests.

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Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
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#26. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 25

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 07:00 PM

>Quote>>I don't know about event video like weddings.
>That's
>>where I
>>>think DSLRs fall woefully short in their video
>>capabilities. At
>>>a maximum record time of 30 minutes, you will
>probably
>>miss
>>>some of the ceremony...yikes!end Quote<<
>
>>
>Quote>My clients are asking for video clips, not full-blown
>video
>>coverage. They want stills and video of certain key parts
>of
>>the ceremony. The kiss, father giving away the bride, 1st
>>dance, and cake cutting are the most requested. They want
>them
>>integrated into a slide show with stills.
>>
>>Russ<<Quote<<
>
>What I am thinking is that if you had your D800 set up for
>Video on a tripod and Start/Stop recording with a wireless
>remote, You could be taking stills with your D4 at the same
>time.
>20 minute or less segments would work just fine.
>You might even want a second D800 to record the guests.
>

Yes, that's the plan, or my assistant will shoot the video. However, the other camera will be my D3 and not a D4. D4 will have to wait.

Russ
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DiamondPhotography

UK
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#27. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 25

DiamondPhotography Registered since 29th Dec 2010
Thu 09-Feb-12 07:13 PM | edited Thu 09-Feb-12 07:19 PM by DiamondPhotography

I can see PP time for D800 images being quite a lot longer when all the little extras are added up...

I am hoping to have my D4 soon and then I will wait and see more samples from D800 before I buy one.

I (like many others) were looking for D4 ISO performance in a D800 body. The D4 is and improvement on D3s, the D800 is a very different camera to D700. Does anyone know if Nikon are officially saying D800 is successor to D700?

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RRRoger

Monterey Bay, US
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#28. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 27

RRRoger Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his long history of demonstrated excellence and helping other members with equipment, technique and DSLR video in the true Nikonians spirit. Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 08:41 PM

Quote>> Does anyone know if Nikon are officially saying D800 is successor to D700?<<Quote<<

Not that I know of, but the D700 is being phased out,
first in Japan due to their new battery laws.
I think the D800 is a replacement for both the D700 and D3x.

The D800 does share much of the same layout with a very similar body.
The physical size of the FullFrame Sensor is almost the same.
But it seems to share more of the advanced technology with the V1, D7000, and D4.

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Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
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#29. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 28

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Thu 09-Feb-12 09:20 PM

>Quote>> Does anyone know if Nikon are officially
>saying D800 is successor to D700?<<Quote<<
>
>Not that I know of, but the D700 is being phased out,
>first in Japan due to their new battery laws.
>I think the D800 is a replacement for both the D700 and D3x.
>
>The D800 does share much of the same layout with a very
>similar body.
>The physical size of the FullFrame Sensor is almost the same.
>
>But it seems to share more of the advanced technology with the
>V1, D7000, and D4.

According to what I have read, the D800 is no longer considered a semi-pro or prosumer camera. It has been promoted to full-fledged professional!

Russ
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ScottChapin

Powder Springs/ATL, US
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#30. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 25

ScottChapin Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in various areas, including Aviation and Birds Photography Charter Member
Sat 11-Feb-12 07:42 PM

>What I am thinking is that if you had your D800 set up for
>Video on a tripod and Start/Stop recording with a wireless
>remote, You could be taking stills with your D4 at the same
>time.
>20 minute or less segments would work just fine.
>You might even want a second D800 to record the guests.

That would spell disaster for me, but that's me. I don't multi task well...LOL. My luck would have me occupied taking stills and forgetting to start the camcorder. Still, you would potentially miss a lot that the video market is looking for, like the singers, grandma and grandpa coming in...and so on.

Scott Chapin
Powder Springs, GA, USA

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LMMiller9

Potomac, US
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#31. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 22

LMMiller9 Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2005
Thu 09-Feb-12 10:16 PM

I would not use the D800 to shoot an entire wedding in video. However, you should know that professional film makers never shoot a scene as long as 30min. Most scenes are clips of a minute to three minutes. Then another scene from another angle or different setting. This is how movies are made and this is why the Canon 5D has been used for documentary film making.

Larry Miller, Potomac, MD
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km6xz

St Petersburg, RU
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#32. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 31

km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009
Thu 09-Feb-12 11:08 PM | edited Fri 10-Feb-12 12:32 AM by km6xz

If anything there has been a trend with DSLR's shooting video to have longer takes for HD broadcast, up from an average of 8 seconds to almost double that. Watch any theatrical release or broadcast and see how many cuts are longer than 5 seconds. Not many. For some genres, such as MTV style, 5 seconds would not be seen at all, too long for kids.
There really are not many viewers who have the patience for a long continuous scene in any sort of video presentation. It might seem like there are not that many component clips edited together when watching because that editor is good and uses the clips in a way to move the story yet camera position and settings changed while being unnoticed.

One feature of the D800 that will have wedding photographers raving is not being talked about much. Imagine being able, in varying light and harsh backlight, being able to have perfectly exposed faces every time with no compensation. The face tracking 3D metering does that. Works with iTTL flash as well.
Since those using it are citing D3 equivalent low light performance, I see, so far no downside to the D800 for event, wedding, studio, landscape etc. Those who are bemoaning the slow 4.5-6fps might need to be a bit more skilled in anticipation but that has ALWAYS been the case in getting the optimum peak action. With the better tracking of the AF system and tracking of the 91k sensor, I would suggest 4 frame in good focus is better than 8 frames with random focus predictability.
If someone really needs high speed frame rates, Nikon has their camera, the D4. Between these two new models, able every base is covered with higher peak performance than any other product line. They had better have increased production because they are going to need it, and a larger bank vault for their 2012 earnings.
Stan
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cfeather

Kingsville, US
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#33. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 32

cfeather Registered since 23rd Dec 2005
Fri 10-Feb-12 12:26 AM

I find it strange people are complaining about both the file size and slow shooting speed ("only 4fs"). I would think that the larger file size would make shooters want to slow down and compose their work more carefully, wait for the decisive moment and spend more time on photography and less on shooting.

I find the most intriguing feature to be the time lapse. But I am wondering if it is using the electronic shutter or the mechanical one to grab the image. If mechanical, it will hasten an early death of the camera, even with a shutter rated at 200,000 actuations.

I advanced ordered, but that was Tuesday. Wednesday, I had early buyer's remorse and thought about canceling. Today, I'm letting it ride. I am not about to give up my D700, regardless of what I do.

Carl E. Feather
Feather Multimedia

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mikeguil

ELMVALE, CA
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#34. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 32

mikeguil Registered since 18th Dec 2005
Fri 10-Feb-12 01:11 AM

>Those who are bemoaning the
>slow 4.5-6fps might need to be a bit more skilled in
>anticipation but that has ALWAYS been the case in getting the
>optimum peak action. With the better tracking of the AF system
>and tracking of the 91k sensor, I would suggest 4 frame in
>good focus is better than 8 frames with random focus
>predictability.

Excellent point Stan. It wasn't that long ago that I was shooting weddings with a Hasselblad and 120 film back. Frames per second??? You'd better be pretty quick on the hand crank and reloading a film back!! It's about capturing the moment... not keeping the shutter down and hoping for the best.


Mike Guilbault
Ontario, Canada
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http://www.MGPhotography.com

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DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
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#35. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 32

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Fri 10-Feb-12 01:22 AM


I was wondering how the face tracking 3D metering would work exactly, having never used any face tracking before. But the way you describe it, it seems like it would be great for weddings. For the formal group shots (not my favorite) I use non TTL strobes with umbrellas with wireless receivers, and not my sb-800's/900's. So I suppose that I would have to go to the to the SB's to get any benefit from the face detection exposure. Today, I use a light meter and shoot these on manual. But this takes slightly longer to set up.

For wedding work, I have NO problem with 4 FPS.

ZoneV

US
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#36. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 32

ZoneV Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2005
Fri 10-Feb-12 03:26 PM | edited Fri 10-Feb-12 03:32 PM by ZoneV

>One feature of the D800 that will have wedding photographers
>raving is not being talked about much. Imagine being able, in
>varying light and harsh backlight, being able to have
>perfectly exposed faces every time with no compensation. The
>face tracking 3D metering does that. Works with iTTL flash as
>well.

I can imagine that...before digital...or right now...using color negative film. Perhaps with the D800, we will finally be back to the lattitude of color negative film and the accuracy of the old Nikon 3D multi-sensor balanced fill flash on those cameras. That flash system was/is phenomenally accurate, even with slide film. The first generation of iTTL always seemed to leave a little to be desired (too much flash power at times). But the samples make it look like Nikon has caught up to their older flash system finally.

Perhaps the only negative with the new iTTL will be the shutter lag due to the preflashes...it's still longer than when using a non-flash exposure. The older 3D multisensor balanced fill flash had no such shutter delay, because it used a shorter preflash duration, and primarily measured off the film during exposure. But you can't do that with a digital sensor.

Nikon user since 2000

briantilley

Paignton, UK
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#37. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 36

briantilley Gold Member Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Fri 10-Feb-12 04:26 PM

>Perhaps the only negative with the new iTTL will be the
>shutter lag due to the preflashes...

I don't see any appreciable shutter delay due to the pre-flashes when using CLS...

Brian
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ZoneV

US
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#38. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 37

ZoneV Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2005
Fri 10-Feb-12 05:13 PM

>>Perhaps the only negative with the new iTTL will be the
>>shutter lag due to the preflashes...
>
>I don't see any appreciable shutter delay due to the
>pre-flashes when using CLS...

I do.

Nikon user since 2000

briantilley

Paignton, UK
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#39. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 38

briantilley Gold Member Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003
Fri 10-Feb-12 07:01 PM

We should agree to differ - I guess in some circumstances, the 1/10th second or so that the pre-flash sequence takes be noticeable.

Either way, this isn't new with the D800 - it apples to all CLS-capable Nikon SLR's.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

ZoneV

US
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#40. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 39

ZoneV Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2005
Fri 10-Feb-12 09:39 PM

I guess the only work around is FV lock (which isn't useful in all situations). I assume this reduces the lag, but I've never tried it.

Nikon user since 2000

Arkayem

Richmond Hill, GA (Savannah), US
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#41. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 40

Arkayem Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in flash photography Charter Member
Sat 11-Feb-12 12:52 AM

>I guess the only work around is FV lock (which isn't useful
>in all situations). I assume this reduces the lag, but I've
>never tried it.

FV Lock totally eliminates flash lag when the flash is on-camera, and reduces it to nearly zero when the flashes are fired by the CLS Commander.

Russ
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temper

Eindhoven, NL
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#42. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 32

temper Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Oct 2007
Sat 11-Feb-12 03:59 PM

hi,
Thanks for putting other great (imo) features of D800 on the discussion table. Indeed, Iso and fps are not the only factors defining the camera.

Cheers,
Marcin

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ScottChapin

Powder Springs/ATL, US
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#43. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 32

ScottChapin Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in various areas, including Aviation and Birds Photography Charter Member
Sat 11-Feb-12 07:37 PM

Stan, I have to beg to differ here. I do agree that general editing says to keep clips less than 5 seconds, but that is not the realm of event videographers. I cannot tell you how many corporations want a naturalized recording of their events, including every dry second of the presentations.

When I shoot those events, I run two cameras and sync their audio, cutting back and forth between cameras. This helps to keep the audience from viewing the same footage interminably, so to speak. If I had the motivation, I would introduce two or three more cameras to cut among many, like watching a football game.

The same holds true to mothers and daughters who want to listen to every millisecond of the wedding ceremony, even if it lasts over 30 minutes. That's just what they want.

So for me, I still would have to bring my camcorders along. When they get 60 minutes or unlimited tethered shooting on a DSLR, then I am absolutely all over it!

Scott Chapin
Powder Springs, GA, USA

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ScottChapin

Powder Springs/ATL, US
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#44. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 31

ScottChapin Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in various areas, including Aviation and Birds Photography Charter Member
Sat 11-Feb-12 07:28 PM

>However, you should know that professional film makers never
>shoot a scene as long as 30min. Most scenes are clips of a
>minute to three minutes. Then another scene from another angle
>or different setting. This is how movies are made and this is
>why the Canon 5D has been used for documentary film making.

That goes without saying and is a reason why I drooled over the $6000 35mm lens adapters for camcorders. I always wanted to do some DOF rack shots. The DSLR would be great for that.

But then, this thread is about weddings, and I don't think it's ready for prime time yet. I do see where still photographers would see it as an enhancement to their still product. Folks who traditionally see the value of video at a wedding would not.

They want to see video of loved ones at the reception as well as the entire ceremony. If the camera could get through the ceremony, they could make it work.

Scott Chapin
Powder Springs, GA, USA

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km6xz

St Petersburg, RU
3577 posts

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#45. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009
Fri 10-Feb-12 06:09 AM

According to the the measurements and calculations by Bill Claff, that some of you are contributed files for in the past, the D800 bests the D700 by a greater then expected amount of high ISO noise. At low ISO, it might beat the D4, it does the D7000 which was the top for 100 ISO before the D4 came out. The new sensor in the D800 has very similar characteristics to the D7000 sensor regarding extremely low read noise at low ISO.
If noise is the concern, and your D700 handled it, the D8000 will be an upgrade.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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temper

Eindhoven, NL
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#46. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

temper Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Oct 2007
Fri 10-Feb-12 02:56 PM

Hi,
It is indeed too early to make a definitive judgement. However there are photographers that had a chance to shoot wedding-like situations with D-800. One of them is Cliff Mautner (who I consider one of the best on the wedding photography arena). He points out some interesting topics on the discussion (like ISO performance comparable with D3). Maybe worth to check his blog: http://www.cmphotography.com/blog.cfm

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DiamondPhotography

UK
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#47. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 46

DiamondPhotography Registered since 29th Dec 2010
Fri 10-Feb-12 03:21 PM

I love my D700 and think D800 will be comparable. However, I sometimes need that extra stop and try to avoid flash indoors wherever possible.

The sample pictures look really good.

I have just ordered D4 and I still have D700 and D7000, me and my partner use the 3 cameras between us.

I plan on using D4 as main body for myself.

North East Wedding Photographer

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cAzz

JP
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#48. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

cAzz Registered since 17th Feb 2012
Fri 16-Mar-12 10:02 AM

I have been eyeing the D800 since announcement but I am getting a lot mixed, I'll say opinions since very few reviews are out there and the public has not tested it. The few that are out there are amazing, especially the short film by Sandro, which is an option I am looking for but I am also looking for high end stills. Everyone is talking about low ISO, high noise, low light issues... but with proper glass, reducing the MP for higher ISO or other adjustments within the camera make it capable of correcting these issues? I don't know, are people just speculating off the specs?

DigitalDarrell

Knoxville, US
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#49. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 0

DigitalDarrell Team Member Founding Member of the Nikonians writer Guild. Author of most of the NikoniansPress books. Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Charter Member
Fri 16-Mar-12 05:10 PM

My take on this is quite simple. I have shot 100+ weddings on film. I always shot the ceremony with 100 ISO film, except when flash was not allowed, in which case I'd use 400 ISO (ASA) film.

So, if the D800 can handle 400–800 ISO with minimal noise, I am a happy camper. Having the huge file size gives me the ability to downsample, crop, or even make gigantic enlargements when needed. Imagine a mild enlargement of a 36 MP image. Huge!

I think the D800 will be a fine wedding camera for me. I'll be shooting a wedding in May with one (D300S as backup), so I'll let you know in May.

==============================================
Darrell Young (DigitalDarrell) www.pictureandpen.com
"Better too many words than not enough understanding."
==============================================

DiamondPhotography

UK
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#50. "RE: D800 and Weddings" | In response to Reply # 49

DiamondPhotography Registered since 29th Dec 2010
Fri 16-Mar-12 06:49 PM

We'll all have real samples soon and can make a more informed decision. I think there is definitely space between D4/D800 for a mini D4 /D700s...

North East Wedding Photographer

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G