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Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?

jim thomas

Edmond, US
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jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Tue 20-Mar-12 02:09 PM | edited Tue 20-Mar-12 02:15 PM by jim thomas

I’m sure that many of you have read Nikon’s article entitled Moiré & False Color. Here is the link to the article:

http://www.nikonusa.com/Learn-And-Explore/Nikon-Camera Technology/gy43mjgu/1/Moire-and-False-Color.html



The article includes this statement (bottom of page 3):

"Stop the lens down about 3 f/stops from its maximum aperture. This requires you to shoot around f/5.6 or f/8 all the time. Stopping the lens down to a smaller aperture (such as f/11 or f/16) will cause diffraction to lower the sharpness, reducing the benefit of the OLPF. This will easily negate the benefits of the D800E."

If this statement is correct it seems that the D800E will not be the best choice for landscapes since most landscape photos will be made at apertures of f/11 or smaller. I note that in this article Nikon lists studio, commercial and still live photographers, but not landscape photographers, as the “…few specific type of photographers” who can benefit from the D800E (page 2 of the article).

I am among the many who are trying to decide whether to buy the E model or the regular model D800. I have been leaning toward the E primarily because I thought the added resolution would be a good choice for landscapes. However, it appears that this is not correct and that the advantages of the E model may be more limited than I had understood. I realize that Nikon is trying to warn us of the limitations and possible drawbacks of the E model in order to limit the number of complaints when E shooters experience these problems. However, the quoted statement is quite specific and I know of no reason not to accept it as accurate.

Please provide your opinions about the use of the E model for landscapes and my interpretation of the Nikon article.

JDT

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#1. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 20-Mar-12 01:16 PM

Translation:

The D800E will not achieve maximum sharpness when lenses are used at F-Stops that cause diffraction.


The D800/D800E will have more resolution, and be sharper than anything else Nikon have produced in their entire history. Whatever body you are CURRENTLY using is also not achieving it's maximum sharpness if you stop your lens down past F11/F16. All that is going to happen is you are going to put a LOT more pixels behind that lens with the D800 or D800E.

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jim thomas

Edmond, US
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#2. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 1

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Tue 20-Mar-12 09:49 PM | edited Tue 20-Mar-12 10:01 PM by jim thomas

Yes, I understand that point. However, diffraction does not necessarily make all cameras equal. The question I am asking is whether others think that Nikon is saying that all advantage of the higher resolution of the E model, compared to the D800 regular model, is lost when the lens is stopped down past f/11 or f/16. In other words I read Nikon's statement to say that the resolution of the regular model will be equal to that of the E model at these stopped down apertures. If that is the case it seems to me that the E model offers no advantage for the landscape shooter. If there is no advantage to the E for landscape, and one does not shoot in a studio environment, why risk the possible problem with moire?

The reason I was leaning toward the E model is because I thought that the added resolution would be an advantage in landscape photography. If that is not the case it seems that I would be better served to stay with the regular model in order to avoid any issue with moire.

JDT

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
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#3. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 2

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Tue 20-Mar-12 10:16 PM

There are several threads going around this topic.

Simply put, I don't expect f/16 to work very well due to diffraction limits. Diffraction will be a bit of an issue at highest aperture settings, but by f/8 or so it is not a factor. You'll need to decide how to trade off depth of field vs. diffraction.

I expect D800 images to have a bit of a different look. The in focus area at f/8 will be sharper than anything you have seen from a conventional DSLR. At the extremes you may lose a little with wider apertures, but part of our technique is to make the sharp focus areas very sharp and blur secondary areas.

But before you get concerned, look at the depth of field with your best landscape images and see what would really have happened at f/8. I think you will find the edges of depth of field are willingly traded for a sharper subject.

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dandy49

clearwater, US
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#4. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

dandy49 Registered since 28th Feb 2009
Tue 20-Mar-12 01:50 PM

I was so much wanting to buy a D700 when the Tsunami hit. Then I heard about the D800 to come out. I was extremely excited and hoped to add a few hundred dollars to my D700 kitty to buy the latest and greatest. Now however, I get this conflicting information about the D800 and the D800E. Purchase the D800 for portrait, studio, etc., or purchase the D800E for landscape photography. Well, what if you do both? I do some sudio work, I do some landscape photography. If the 800 does not take advantage of the 36.3 mp why buy it? If the 800E causes moire', why buy it? Would the D800 produce as good of quality photography, studio and landscape, as the D700? I am soooo confused.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#5. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 4

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 20-Mar-12 02:14 PM

I really don't understand all this hand-wringing... What is there to be confused about?

If you don't mind moire from time to time, or you exclusively shoot subjects for which this is not an issue (like landscapes), buy the "E". Otherwise buy the D800.

The D800 is going to absolutely SMOKE the D700 in probably everything but low light photography, where testing and actual photographs have shown it's equal or slightly better.

My D7000 is so much better at most of this stuff than my D3s it's not even funny. I can't WAIT to get my hands on the D800.

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dandy49

clearwater, US
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#6. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 5

dandy49 Registered since 28th Feb 2009
Tue 20-Mar-12 03:00 PM

I guess the hand-wringing comes from paying $3000 + for a camera and hoping I make the right decision. I shoot little league football and dance productions as well as portraits for each, with an occasional wedding thrown in. So I am looking for the tack sharpness for the sports and don't mind the softness for the portraits. One question I have is that I was all set on buying the D700 as this camera seemed to do everything I wanted. Which camera, D800 or D800E is comparable to the D700? Does the D700 have an anti-alias filter in it? If so, I think my question will have been answered.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#7. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 6

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 20-Mar-12 04:12 PM

>I guess the hand-wringing comes from paying $3000 + for a
>camera and hoping I make the right decision. I shoot little
>league football and dance productions as well as portraits for
>each, with an occasional wedding thrown in. So I am looking
>for the tack sharpness for the sports and don't mind the
>softness for the portraits. One question I have is that I was
>all set on buying the D700 as this camera seemed to do
>everything I wanted. Which camera, D800 or D800E is comparable
>to the D700? Does the D700 have an anti-alias filter in it? If
>so, I think my question will have been answered.

The D800 would be most comparable to the D800. And to my knowledge the D800E is the first and only Nikon to ever not have an AA filter.

If you have concerns, just get the D800. I'd bet $100 you couldn't tell the difference on a 20x30 print from the two cameras unless you had them side by side.

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rodantking

US
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#8. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 4

rodantking Registered since 14th Feb 2012
Tue 20-Mar-12 02:36 PM | edited Tue 20-Mar-12 02:53 PM by rodantking

I don't agree with nikon here. The E should be good for Studio work. There are a lot of guys using med format with no aa now for studio. You have more control in a studio. I would suggest shooting tethered so you can see moire and fix it in camera, but that is ideal anyways. Location portaits is a whole other gig and may be a bigger pain than it's worth. If studio and landscapes are the camera's main jobs the E should be great. Also, how often do you shoot at f1.4 in the studio?
I agree about the diffraction issue. According to rep I talk to it's more of a problem on ultra-wides. I assume thats because f2.8 is smaller aperture opening on a 14mm than a 100mm. I'm not much of a landscape guy but again, how often are you shooting your 14mm at f22? Diffraction was happening on your 700 also, but you didn't really see it much because it was still out resolving your sensor. To me that means that even though f22 will be softer than f8, it's still sharper than your d700 at f22. Time will tell. I suspect that a lot of pixel peepers will start focus stacking.

richardd300

Dyserth, UK
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#9. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 4

richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009
Wed 21-Mar-12 01:22 PM | edited Wed 21-Mar-12 01:27 PM by richardd300

Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I was responding to post by Dandy49. https://www.nikonians.org/forums/dcboard.php#38970.

I don't know if either version will produce a better landscape than the D700, no one does. At the moment the whole issue is hypothosis and will remain that way even after the first D800/E hits the users here. I have almost made my decision to not upgrade my D700 even though it may result in the D800 being an almost joint DX and FX camera. This is an important factor as I photograph both wildlife and landscapes.

My guess is that the D800 or D800E would provide me with much more than I have now, that is the ability to print stunning landscapes up to enormous sizes. I only produce 20 x 16 or normally 16 x 12inch prints. I don't need bigger images and guess I never will. The question is this, at the same viewing distances will I tell the difference between the D700 and D800/E. I don't know. I sell my prints and those I've sold to are pleased to have them on their walls.

So perhaps I've answered my own dilema, perhaps not. All I can say is the D700 is no lightweight as you already know, it is supremely capable of producing printed images of which anyone will be proud.

I guess the answer you need will come in time and if it's negative then the D700 will hopefully still be around and the diffrence in cost would be a major contribution towards really good glass.

Richard

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jim thomas

Edmond, US
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#10. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 9

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Wed 21-Mar-12 01:34 PM

Hi Richard,

I agree with you. We really don't know the real world impact of these cameras. As with any issue we have folks who form their firm opinions without the benefit of reviews, testing or experience. It is always amusing to watch this unfold. In another post I posed the question you raised as to whether one will see all this additional resolution in a print. Most agree that one will not see the difference expept in extremely large prints or in severely cropped photos. That is not to say that the D800 is not an exciting camera and I am looking forward to having one. It will be a large upgrade for my since I am now shooting with a D200. However it will not do everything better than other cameras and I expect that the real world advantages will be shown to be less than most of us expect. That is why I am trying to better evaluate whether the E model in fact is any better for landscapes than the regular model. The answer appears to be that any advantage is limited to photos shot at f/8 or wider.

Thanks for your post.

JDT

Gromit44

UK
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#11. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 9

Gromit44 Registered since 04th Jan 2012
Thu 22-Mar-12 12:10 PM

>I only produce 20 x 16 or normally 16 x 12inch prints. I don't need bigger images and guess I never will. The question is this, at the same viewing distances will I tell the difference between the D700 and D800/E.

Richard - to help find the answer to your question, you could try comparing the D800 & D700 test shots from here: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikonD800/7

I'd suggest downloading the 100 ISO NEF file for each camera - the D800 shot (42.3MB NEF) is on the LHS and the D700 shot (12.4MB NEF)
is in the dropdown on the RHS.

Resize the D800 NEF to 4256 x 2840 (D700-size near as dammit) and save as a JPEG - then compare it with the unaltered D700 NEF (also saved as a JPEG). Look at the print on the batteries and the Martini bottle. That should give you an idea of both cameras when printed at the same size (but not bigger than the D700's native, which I think is 14.19" x 9.44" at 300dpi).

chiefmasterjedi

US
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#12. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

chiefmasterjedi Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Feb 2009
Tue 20-Mar-12 03:24 PM

The way I see it is, if you are shooting mainly landscapes, get the D800E for the extra resolution because moire is less of a problem in natural "chaotic" scenes where there is no recurring patterns. Also if you want to stop down to F11 or F16, then go ahead and do it. I'm sure that the D800E with 50mm 2.8 lens stopped down to F16 would give around the same resolution as the D800 and 50mm 2.8 at F8. Of coarse this is only a guess, but diffraction on the D800E will at some point end up blurring the image slightly like the AA filter does on the D800.

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jim thomas

Edmond, US
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#13. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 12

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Tue 20-Mar-12 10:08 PM

I read Nikon's statement to say that at f/11 or higher there is no advantage to the E model. Therefore it seems that the E offers no advantage to landscape shooters. That is the only application in which I thought I might prefer the E model. If there is no advantage in that application I see no reason to risk moire in other shooting situations. In other words, in my cost/benefit analysis of the regular/E models it seems that the benefit of the E (higher resolution/sharpness in landscapes) does not exist. If that is true I see no reason to pay the cost (possible moire problems). I hope that this clarifies rather than muddles the issue.

JDT

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
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#14. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Tue 20-Mar-12 04:02 PM

I tend to agree with Perone on this. The D800E is not a camera to be afraid of in normal photography. I have one on order and cancelled an order for first day delivery of the D800.

Moire is a potential issue with fabrics and extremely regular man-made structures. I wrestled with potential moire on bird feathers, and concluded that the large number of feathers at different angles and limited size of any one feather would minimize moire. I see moire as being a potential issue for product photography, architecture, and possibly with portraits depending on clothing.

Diffraction is a different issue. Diffraction neutralizes moire. Diffraction at high apertures is likely to cause some softness - and it will vary by lens. But the sharpest portion of your image will have more detail and be even sharper on the D800 than any earlier camera. The D800E inches up a bit more on sharpness and detail beyond the D800.

Here is an example of depth of field at f/8 using a 20mm focal length and a subject 5 feet away.
Near limit 2.63 ft
Far limit 51.2 ft

If you increase aperture to f/11, here is the impact:
Near limit 2.2 ft
Far limit Infinity

In this case with a wide lens, it really makes little difference. Your closest in focus area changes by 5 inches, and you pick up a little sharpness over 50 feet away. And if you have been shooting at f/13 or higher, there was minimal benefit.

You probably won't expect huge depth of field with longer lenses as longer lenses and close subjects have small depth of field at any reasonable aperture.

The real benefit is from sharpness in your subject. If your subject is truly sharp, it may make out of focus areas appear softer. We already do that in editing (sharpen the subject and soften the background). This capability will mean you need a little more skill and planning to optimize your photography.

Finally - the D7000 has essentially the same size pixels and image size as a DX crop on the D800. The D7000 produces very nice crisp images - but it can be demanding on technique. I've used it for everything form events to birds in flight and have gotten plenty of very sharp images.

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jim thomas

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#15. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 14

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Tue 20-Mar-12 10:16 PM | edited Wed 21-Mar-12 12:41 PM by jim thomas

Hi Eric,

Allow me to comment on this statement:

"But the sharpest portion of your image will have more detail and be even sharper on the D800 than any earlier camera. The D800E inches up a bit more on sharpness and detail beyond the D800."

The question I am asking is whether that statement is accurate if one is shooting landscapes. Nikon says that at the small (f/11, f/16, f/22 etc.) apertures normally used in landscape photography the advantage of the E is lost. I read that to mean that for landscape use the D800 will produce photos with equal resolution and sharpness as those produced by the E model. If that is the case I am inclined to buy the D800 rather than the E in order to avoid any issue with moire. Others will, of course, have other needs and preferences.

Edited on 3/21/12 to change "wide" to "small (f/11, f/16, f/22 etc.). Thanks to Larry for bringing this mistake to my attention.

JDT

ericbowles

Atlanta, US
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#16. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 15

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Tue 20-Mar-12 10:25 PM

When it comes to landscapes the D800E does not lose anything against the D800 - ever. Diffraction affects both equally - and the D800E has a slight sharpness edge. Your issue with the D800E is moire - not sharpness.

As discussed in some other threads, the D800E will likely have a different look with exceptional sharpness of your focus point. Even without any diffraction issues, the sharpness of the D800 and D800E will stand out. It's just the E has a bit more sharpness with the risk of moire. I'll take it and my order is placed. I shoot landscapes, macro and wildlife.

The D800 is a perfectly good option. For a balanced photographer who shoots sport, weddings, and portraits, the D800 is the answer. Anything we are talking about is still the best camera on the market.

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jim thomas

Edmond, US
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#17. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 16

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Wed 21-Mar-12 12:50 PM

I am not suggesting that the E "loses anything against the D800..." I am saying that it does not gain anything at the smaller apertures and that they will produce equally sharp images at those apertures. So if one shoots at those apertures the "benefit" of the E is lost. However, the potential disadvantage of moire in other photos (complex clothing materials, etc.) remains. The only reason I was considering the E is for the extra sharpness that I thought it offered for landscape shooting. Since that benefit does not exist, but the "possible" downside of moire remains, I see no reason to buy the E model.

JDT

MotoMannequin

Livermore, CA, US
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#18. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 15

MotoMannequin Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Registered since 11th Jan 2006
Tue 20-Mar-12 11:17 PM | edited Tue 20-Mar-12 11:20 PM by MotoMannequin

>The question I am asking is whether that statement is accurate
>if one is shooting landscapes. Nikon says that at wide
>apertures normally used in landscape photography the advantage
>of the E is lost. I read that to mean that for landscape use
>the D800 will produce photos with equal resolution and
>sharpness as those produced by the E model.

A couple things Jim... First I think you mean "narrow" apertures not wide.

Now, your conclusion that the D800e isn't useful for landscapes, despite the fact that Nikon says they are producing the camera (among other things) for landscape photographers, says that either Nikon knows nothing about landscape photography, or that your assumptions are perhaps off. In my opinion, your assumption on how small an aperture is required for landscapes is a little conservative. This isn't that surprising since, if you date back to the film days, back then everybody said to just shoot landscapes at f/22.

Nikon is *not* telling you that the D800e isn't useful for landscapes, they're saying that in many landscapes situations, you will get better results at f/8.

I come from a school of thought that says (1) don't hesitate to use a small aperture when necessary and (2) don't use a smaller aperture than necessary. Smaller than f/8 for landscapes really only becomes necessary with long-ish (let's say longer than normal) focal lengths and situations where a main subject is inches from your lens. Both of these happen but they aren't necessarily the norm. Therefore I shoot most landscapes at f/8, and cheat into the f/11-f/16 range if required, which isn't all that often. I also like a little bit of softness at infinity as it's a natural visual cue to indicate distance, and therefore can add some depth to a landscape image.

My opinion on the D800/D800e question is, if you're concerned about moiré in your subjects then get the D800, if you're not then get the D800e. Simple as that.

...although there is a school of thought that says there isn't much real difference between them, once capture sharpening is applied to the D800 file, therefore don't take the chance on moiré, which I suppose is where you're coming from. If that's the case you'll probably be very happy with the D800.

Personally, I'm not worried about moiré in my subjects at all and I'd rather lean towards the chance at greater acuity for the scenes that will allow me to take advantage of it.

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jim thomas

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#19. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 18

jim thomas Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2003
Wed 21-Mar-12 01:24 PM

Hi Larry,

First, you are correct that I meant "narrow" rather than wide. I have corrected my post to correct my error. I seem to always have difficutly correctly describing the aperture sizes (larger numbers = smaller opening, etc.). Thanks for the correction.

In the article I cited Nikon mentions "studio, commercial and still life" photographers as those who will benefit from the E. Landscape photographers are not mentioned. Have Nikon recommended the E for landscape photographers in another publication? I am certainly not saying that Nikon knows nothing about landscape photography. My comments are based on the statements made by Nikon in the article I cited.

I have tried to keep the topic limited to shooting at the stopped down apertures and not expand it to landscape shooting technique. I agree with you that one should shoot at the widest aperture the shooting situation will allow. I use the hyperfocal tables for that purpose. In quite a few situations the use of f/11 or f/16 is indeed the right aperture. In those situations the benefit of the E is lost, according to the article. If one is able to shoot at f/8 the E does apparently offer some gain in sharpness. Whether this benefit justifies the "cost" (risk of moire in some situations) is the question. For your use you have reached a firm conclusion. I have not yet decided.


JDT

MotoMannequin

Livermore, CA, US
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#20. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 19

MotoMannequin Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Registered since 11th Jan 2006
Wed 21-Mar-12 04:02 PM

>In the article I cited Nikon mentions "studio, commercial
>and still life" photographers as those who will benefit
>from the E. Landscape photographers are not mentioned. Have
>Nikon recommended the E for landscape photographers in another
>publication? I am certainly not saying that Nikon knows
>nothing about landscape photography. My comments are based on
>the statements made by Nikon in the article I cited.

It looks like you are correct. Now I'm not sure if I've heard Nikon say D800e is useful for landscape photographers, or I made that assumption because it's been landscape photographers who've been removing their AA filters from existing cameras for years. I can't find a citation to back up my claim on Nikon's position.

>I have tried to keep the topic limited to shooting at the
>stopped down apertures and not expand it to landscape shooting
>technique.

It's interesting to discuss what exactly "diffraction limited sharpness" means. If you're going to shoot f/16 then mathematically you're limiting your sharpness and perhaps don't gain any advantage from the E. OTOH it's interesting to note, in Nikon's technical guide, they use f/22 to show the softness caused by diffraction, not f/11 or f/16. So where is the real-world limit? I've done tests on my D300 which is supposedly limited smaller than f/11, and found no perceptible softness until f/18, and found landscape details didn't really fall apart until f/22.

On your question, if you're going to shoot at f/16, might you just as well get the D800? I think it makes some sense, although in my mind the question is still about moiré, not sharpness, because you won't shoot the D800e at f/16 all the time.

>I agree with you that one should shoot at the
>widest aperture the shooting situation will allow. I use the
>hyperfocal tables for that purpose. In quite a few situations
>the use of f/11 or f/16 is indeed the right aperture.

This is a difference in philosophy for us. I never shoot hyperfocal, as I much prefer maximum sharpness in my most important foreground object and willing to trade (and actually prefer) some softness in the distance.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
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Benkoop

Amsterdam, NL
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#21. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

Benkoop Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Sep 2009
Tue 20-Mar-12 04:17 PM

"You can remove the false color in post-production, on the computer easier than you can the moiré pattern itself".

I'm not sure what is meant here (I'm afraid my English is not good enough). Does it say that the false color can be easily removed in pp but that the pattern itself is more likely to stay visible? I wonder how that might look.

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MotoMannequin

Livermore, CA, US
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#22. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 21

MotoMannequin Awarded for his extraordinary skills in landscape and wildlife photography Registered since 11th Jan 2006
Tue 20-Mar-12 05:27 PM

>"You can remove the false color in post-production, on
>the computer easier than you can the moiré pattern
>itself".
>
>I'm not sure what is meant here (I'm afraid my English is not
>good enough). Does it say that the false color can be easily
>removed in pp but that the pattern itself is more likely to
>stay visible? I wonder how that might look.

In general it's a lot easier to remove artifacts from the color channels than the luminosity channel, without having an obvious detrimental effect on the image.

Do you use Photoshop? If so then try this: Shoot something with a lot of color and luminosity noise (some long exposure at your camera's highest ISO should do the trick). Open it in Photoshop, duplicate the background layer and change blend mode from normal to color. Zoom in on the pixel level and apply gaussian blur to the top layer so the color noise is gone (probably 3-8 pixel blur). This should wipe the color artifacts without hurting the image too badly, but you'll see it leaves luminosity noise. Try to do the same thing with blend mode set to luminosity and you'll see the image degrade much more significantly.

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Benkoop

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#23. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 22

Benkoop Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Sep 2009
Tue 20-Mar-12 05:43 PM

Thanks Larry, very clear! I will try it out in Photoshop.

Wim

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TomCurious

Bay Area, US
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#24. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

TomCurious Registered since 03rd Jan 2007
Wed 21-Mar-12 01:03 AM

I think we are getting far too worked up with the new 36MP sensor as well as the question D800 or D800E. People are shooting with the D7000 just fine and with great results, and that camera has about the same pixel density as the D800, and it also has an AA filter. As far as D800 vs D800E goes, the choice is to either get a very, very rare chance of moire, or to get a microscopically small reduction in sharpness. Just look at the samples in the link. We will get spectacular resolution with either model no matter what it is used for.

Tom
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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#25. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 24

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 21-Mar-12 01:28 AM

Completely agree. Though after getting moire on my D7000 in a particular studio shoot with a VERY picky customer, I am playing a bit safe and getting the D800. I'll leave the "E" for the other guys.

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kolson

Auburn, US
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#26. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 25

kolson Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Dec 2009
Wed 21-Mar-12 06:01 PM | edited Wed 21-Mar-12 06:33 PM by kolson

.

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kolson

Auburn, US
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#27. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 25

kolson Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Dec 2009
Wed 21-Mar-12 06:04 PM

Perrone,

I thought the AA filter was supposed to eliminate moire....what happened? Can moire be produced in cameras using an AA filter? Is anyone safe from the evils of moire?

KEN OLSON

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#28. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 27

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Thu 22-Mar-12 01:50 AM

Not all AA filters are the same. It's a balancing act by the camera manufacturer. The filter can be quite strong, but that knocks down overall sharpness of the camera. Or the filter can be relatively weak which makes a sharper camera, but increases the risk of moire.

Nikon likely is using a fairly weak filter in the D7000 as the sharpness is incredible with good glass. They likely didn't expect the D7000 to be seeing a lot of studio/fashion use. And the person I was shooting was wearing a HORRIBLE fabric as far as moire pattern is concerned.

And no, under the right circumstances, moire can be seen anywhere. Even with the naked eye which has a resolution several orders of magnitude beyond these cameras and lenses.


>Perrone,
>
>I thought the AA filter was supposed to eliminate
>moire....what happened? Can moire be produced in cameras
>using an AA filter? Is anyone safe from the evils of moire?
>
>KEN OLSON

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kolson

Auburn, US
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#29. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 28

kolson Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Dec 2009
Thu 22-Mar-12 01:30 PM

Perrone,

If I understand you correctly, the D800 is likely to have a rather weak AA filter? If so, the D800 will also be suseptible to moire, similar to the D800E, but just to a lesser extent?

KEN OLSON

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phil711

Williams, US
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#30. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 24

phil711 Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Jun 2008
Wed 21-Mar-12 01:49 PM

I agree with Tom and would add that diffraction affects are easily reduced or eliminated in post processing. I shoot scenics at f/22 frequently and after post processing the result is equal or better than the same shot at f/8.

Unlike the effects of focus problems or camera movement problems, I view diffraction as more of a contrast problem than a sharpness problem. Even at f/22, most of the little photons are getting to their proper place on the sensor and only a relative few are going off course after passing the edge of the diaphragm. The errant photons are merely diluting an otherwise good image. There is certainly some diffraction at f/8, but it is just not as noticeable.

Typically, I use Nik Tonal Contrast filter with a touch of Unsharp Mask. Then I oversharpen a bit before sending the image to my inkjet. I suspect my friends who use a D7000 would have similar results. The D800E may or may not. I will wait patiently to find out.

In any case, I can deal with diffraction.

Phil

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aay

CA
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#31. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 30

aay Registered since 11th Jul 2010
Mon 26-Mar-12 12:54 PM

Huh? Interesting how you dismiss physics..

So all you do is using PP to sharpen the image. But that won't give you proper results as sharp image shot would.

makiru

Manila, PH
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#32. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

makiru Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Feb 2008
Wed 21-Mar-12 09:14 AM

...if you haven't already, give the following a watch, basically on what he says (OK, I'm a bit lemmingish...) and also what I've now read about moire, I've asked my dealer in Hong Kong to get ma a D800E (I was a D800 chappie previously...).

http://www.whatdigitalcamera.com/videos/reviews/532147/a-month-with-the-nikon-d800-exclusive-interview-with-jim-brandenburg.html

...as other people have mentioned, he was using a D800 last summer...???

rodantking

US
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#33. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 32

rodantking Registered since 14th Feb 2012
Thu 22-Mar-12 03:25 AM | edited Thu 22-Mar-12 03:35 AM by rodantking

Anyone have any idea what it would cost to remove the aa . Seeing its a stock part now it should be the same as replacing any filter, but I have never damaged one.

One thing is for sure. This thing needs to show up already so this argument can actually go somewhere.

dandy49

clearwater, US
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#34. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

dandy49 Registered since 28th Feb 2009
Thu 22-Mar-12 12:25 PM

With all the technology out there today, do they make a filter for lenses to eliminate or reduce moire?

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dandy49

clearwater, US
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#35. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

dandy49 Registered since 28th Feb 2009
Thu 22-Mar-12 12:42 PM

I imagine I have the "got to get the latest" syndrome. As I've said, I was seriously wanting a D700, due mostly to the rave reviews I've heard from other photographers and its low light capabilities. That was until the D800 was announced. Of course now I am in the mindset of "if it is new, it must be better". Then, Nikon had to throw a wrench in the works by not just introducing the D800, but introducing the D800E. After reading this thread, I realize how much of an amateur photographer I am as a lot of this information is way over my head. Everything right now is pure speculation and until both cameras are in the hands of "everyday" photographers, I will not have an answer to which camera I should purchase.

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richardd300

Dyserth, UK
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#36. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 35

richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009
Thu 22-Mar-12 01:35 PM

It's going to be a steep learning curve I am sure, but as experience increases so will results in terms of IQ. If it isn't a good experience for many, then Nikon have put one heck of load of money in to it's development which is the best reason succeed. My own opinion is that I think, but hope not, that the experience is likely to be similar to the D7000 with thread after thread by worried buyers. It'll all be resolved after a few months and most will be user problems.

Sometimes though I think we just have to go with a gut feeling. Buy the camera which is what I did with all my other cameras apart from the D7000, unbox it, hold it, but more importantly now than ever read and read the technical and user manual, then start shooting. Just ask, does the result look good. If it does, then the journey's 50% complete.

I wasn't even aware of Nikonians when I bought my D300 or D700 and I was thrilled from day one and am still

Richard

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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

Timbo1961

Pickering, ON, CA
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#37. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 36

Timbo1961 Registered since 08th Oct 2008
Thu 22-Mar-12 04:57 PM | edited Thu 22-Mar-12 11:24 PM by Timbo1961

Just picked up my D800 .... not the E model.
After much investigation, it seems that the E model is a very specific camera for use in very controlled conditions.
As well, with a bit PP sharpening etc. the images from a camera with the AA filter and a camera with the AA filter removed are VERY similar.
As dealing with the moire and the colour artifacts that come with that are pretty tough in PS etc., I see no reason to go with the E model.
As well, my contact at the local camera store (many pro customers) told me that the D800 is being ordered in significantly higher numbers than the E model.
Just my input ... time will tell.
Seems like a good sturdy camera.
Tim

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DMCdigitalmedia

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#38. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 37

DMCdigitalmedia Registered since 04th Jan 2007
Thu 22-Mar-12 07:50 PM

I agree with an early post by Perron...why all the hand wringing ? Moire is not that big a deal to correct. I shoot with a 22 MP digital back and they are notorious for moire....rarely is it ever an issue, i shoot interiors and architecture. when I do see a moire pattern it is simple enough to correct. The 36 mp sensor on the E should be much less prone to moire from what i understand because of the higher pixel density......not sure why or if thats the correct lingo but I CAN say its no biggy ! Fashion shooters have been using Digital Backs since they came out with no AA filters and shoot fabrics all day...If you never really want to have to watch for a Moire pattern get the 800...I will be looking at the 800E for sure as the added sharpness should be closer to MF rigs. I am glad they are offering it for me and my shooting it make a difference!

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GiantTristan

Stamford, US
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#39. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 35

GiantTristan Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Jan 2006
Mon 26-Mar-12 01:55 PM | edited Mon 26-Mar-12 02:04 PM by GiantTristan

I definitely sympathize with your situation. The problem is that neither the D800 nor the D800E is a direct successor model for the D700. I would consider the D4 as the closest to a "new and improved" D700. Apparently, Nikon did not want to repeat the commercial mistake they made when they introduced the D700 which cut into the sales of the more expensive D3.

I have used the D700 for over three years and see no reason whatsoever to "upgrade" to one of the D800 models. If you use top level lenses and understand your camera, the results with the D700 are outstanding.

My suggestion is: Get a lightly used D700 which probably will be rather inexpensive and use the money you save to buy one or two top level lenses. In two or three years, when Nikon introduces their "new and improved" D900 your lenses will be worth a lot more than the now "obsolete" D800...

Tristan

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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#40. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 39

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Mon 26-Mar-12 02:18 PM

>I definitely sympathize with your situation. The problem is
>that neither the D800 nor the D800E is a direct successor
>model for the D700. I would consider the D4 as the closest to
>a "new and improved" D700. Apparently, Nikon did not
>want to repeat the commercial mistake they made when they
>introduced the D700 which cut into the sales of the more
>expensive D3.
>
>I have used the D700 for over three years and see no reason
>whatsoever to "upgrade" to one of the D800 models.
>If you use top level lenses and understand your camera, the
>results with the D700 are outstanding.
>
>My suggestion is: Get a lightly used D700 which probably will
>be rather inexpensive and use the money you save to buy one or
>two top level lenses. In two or three years, when Nikon
>introduces their "new and improved" D900 your lenses
>will be worth a lot more than the now "obsolete"
>D800...
>
>

... I agree with you to a point ... however for me the issue was video ... uncompressed hd ... D700 zippo. I suspect as the D800 settles in .. there will be strategies for almost every type of shot. I am nervous about getting tack sharp images ... but probably not nervous enough to make me spend 6Gs on the 4D.
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Sing141

Bakersfield, US
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#41. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 35

Sing141 Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Oct 2006
Mon 26-Mar-12 02:28 PM

>I imagine I have the "got to get the latest"
>syndrome. As I've said, I was seriously wanting a D700, due
>mostly to the rave reviews I've heard from other photographers
>and its low light capabilities. That was until the D800 was
>announced. Of course now I am in the mindset of "if it is
>new, it must be better". Then, Nikon had to throw a
>wrench in the works by not just introducing the D800, but
>introducing the D800E. After reading this thread, I realize
>how much of an amateur photographer I am as a lot of this
>information is way over my head. Everything right now is pure
>speculation and until both cameras are in the hands of
>"everyday" photographers, I will not have an answer
>to which camera I should purchase.

I think you have summed it up very well. Reading these posts has been a learning experience, but also has shown me how little I know. A lot of what has been mentioned I have never considered and, for some reason, I have been mostly happy with the photos I have taken. That's not to say I haven't learned from this thread. Thanks, everyone!

Sing141

selmslie

Fernandina Beach, US
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#42. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

selmslie Registered since 12th Dec 2011
Mon 26-Mar-12 12:22 PM

"...Stopping the lens down to a smaller aperture (such
as f/11 or f/16) will cause diffraction ... will easily
negate the benefits of the D800E."

This has nothing to do with the D800E. If you are after sharpness, you should not stop your lens beyond this diffraction threshold with any 35mm SLR, digital or film.

Using the "sweet spot" for a lens (usually about 2 or 3 stops below it maximum aperture) is nothing new either.

You can still raise the ISO setting for daytime landscapes without worrying about noise.

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aay

CA
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#43. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 42

aay Registered since 11th Jul 2010
Mon 26-Mar-12 12:42 PM

But the smaller the pixel size the faster you get into diffraction. So with D700 diffraction aperture will be something like f/16, while with D800 it's f/8. So, big difference.

xtrememac

Andover, US
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#44. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 0

xtrememac Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2006
Mon 26-Mar-12 03:31 PM

OK, my 2 cents...D800E and this is why...

I have had an MF back on a Hassie for a few years now, and I also own a Leica M9. Neither has an AA filter, and to me this issue is simple. It is all about the glass. If you have really great glass, you want nothing to prevent all the detail from being captured. Pro technique is of course required but assumed because few hobbyists could drop $50K on a camera or make big monthly lease payments. Someone who can legitimately make a case for owning this stuff has been getting paid for delivering the goods to art directors, etc., general expertise for a while.

Given NIkon's new 800s you can enter this rarefied environment for $3K, plus glass. There are new rules here, and folks all over will be experiencing them as the 800s become more prevalent.

Now understand there are no "affordable" MF or frankly Leica lenses, at least not new. The average prime costs the same as a Nikkor mega lens, like the 200mm f2, $5K+....and the quality is readily evident, no question asked.

So if you are using the serious pro Nikkor glass, AND again assuming proper technique for a hi-res camera trying to achieve top results, then buying anything with an AA filter like the D800 would be a mistake, IMO. Frankly, there are a lot of inexpensive Nikkors whose performance at best is comparatively lousy when you have a hi-res capture device, and this discussion would not matter.

Pro technique involves many things, but knowing the effects of diffusion in any given situation...it is not always the aperture alone. Achieving maximum effective sharpness is different from simple numeric resolution...and this is the real goal of a hires capture device...to get you to that max possible with as many options as possible.

One thing I have not taken into account is people using this camera for everything, or for something for which it is not best-suited for (like low light rapid action)...to me that would be akin to having just one hammer in the toolbox. Maybe that would call for the need for the 800....BUT IMO horses for courses, if you have a hi-res camera use it when its strengths are needed.

Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen moire in a capture...it is not like it is a regular occurrence. I choose to shoot with the MF when I have a fairly static subject, and I am doing a billboard, banner, show panel, etc. or the art director demands it.

Truthfully, if the subject is dynamic I would rather have the Nikon in my hands. You would be amazed how many large format images printed on banners or walls are Nikon + Photoshop...with all the tricks available today, it is easy. 20 years ago, I did it all on 8x10'" if I had to go that big.

Personally, I will try the 800E, I have one coming, but most likely I wait for a pro version. I hate the lack of integrated vertical grip, SD cards in general, moreover the inability to have 2 identical mirrored cards as I do in my D3s.

It will however, show just how good the Nikkors are when compared to other hi-res cameras. Should be fun.


Sincerely,

K. J. Doyle

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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#45. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 44

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Mon 26-Mar-12 03:43 PM


Interesting take ... I have never shot MF ... I am expecting to use the D800 as an entry into what that world feels like. I realize coming from the pro side this might sound ridiculous.

I am curious as to which glass you would want on this thing to achieve outstanding tack sharp landscapes and portraits.

looking forward to seeing the results of the early owners !
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GiantTristan

Stamford, US
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#46. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 45

GiantTristan Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Jan 2006
Mon 26-Mar-12 04:06 PM

>I am curious as to which glass you would want on this thing to
>achieve outstanding tack sharp landscapes and portraits.

You might want to have a look at Lloyd Chamber's blog. He recommends some top notch Nikon and Zeiss primes. When it comes to zoom lenses he recommends the 70-200/2.8 VRII and gives a qualified recommendation for the 14-24/2.8.

Tristan

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xtrememac

Andover, US
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#47. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 45

xtrememac Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2006
Mon 26-Mar-12 04:15 PM

Hi there,

My lense choice would be my 3 faves....

Portraits:
200mm f2 best lense in the bag for me. I shoot it on a big series 5 Gitzo tripod with a Wimberly sidekick 90% of the time. Love it, but too heavy to handhold for long.

85mm f1.4G for thin dof different perspective, less compression. Piles of cream...yum.

Landscapes: not something I do now, but I dearly love the 24mm f1.4 Smooth, sharp, contrast, low distortion.

While I own a fair amount of other nikkors, these three just look better to me than the others. Frankly, the difference between the 200 and the 70-200 f2.8 at 200 is huge.

I do theater promotion, and when I am learning a show, I will shoot the 70-200... When I have my exposures and moments chosen, I am shooting the 200. Cannot say enough about that glass.

So while these 3 are the better part of $10k, they are worth it, from both a business and an enjoyment/satisfaction perspective.

Sincerely,

K. J. Doyle

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Gromit44

UK
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#48. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 44

Gromit44 Registered since 04th Jan 2012
Mon 26-Mar-12 04:35 PM

>Personally, I will try the 800E, I have one coming, but most
>likely I wait for a pro version.

Do you think there will be a pro version?

xtrememac

Andover, US
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#49. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 48

xtrememac Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2006
Mon 26-Mar-12 04:38 PM

Absolutely. Probably with additional features.


Sincerely,

K. J. Doyle

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massulo

Tampa/Lutz, US
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#50. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 49

massulo Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning a Nikonians Annual Photo Contest Nikonian since 07th May 2002
Mon 26-Mar-12 07:59 PM

anyone think that this model is fast enough for BIF and that sort of shots?



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richardd300

Dyserth, UK
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#51. "RE: Is Nikon Telling Us That D800E Is Not A Good Choice For Landscapes?" | In response to Reply # 50

richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009
Mon 26-Mar-12 08:22 PM

I am asking the same question elsewhere. I am also waiting to see if the D800 in DX mode delivers low noise images as the D700 accomplished at around ISO800-1200. I guess all these questions will be answered in time. If not then I shall await the arrival of the D300s replacement, trade in my D7000, but keep my D700.

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G