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Why the D800 will make me money...

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sat 31-Mar-12 05:30 AM

The major feature of the D800 is it's resolution. No doubt about it That resolution can allow us as 35mm DSLR photographers to do some things previously we were not able to do. At least not to the same level.

For me, the D800 is a replacement for much longer glass. And as such, it's one heck of a bargain. I offer the following two images as proof of what I mean, and why the D800 will be earning me money very shortly.

This first image looks rather unremarkable on the surface. Most people who don't shoot this sport will see it as a common batter swing taken from high down the third base line.

The truth lies in the EXIF info. That rather unremarkable image is taken with about a 420mm lens, from a parking garage across the street from the stadium. And even at that level of magnification, the batter is a very small portion of the frame.


Click on image to view larger version




This is a crop of the previous image. We can clearly see the stitching on the ball, the print of the sliding shorts under the uniform, the eye of the batter, and what brand of shoes she's wearing. We can see the eyes of the umpire.

Had I shot this with my D3s, this second image would be about 2MP or less. Relegating me to 4x5 prints at most to maintain the level of quality I like. But this crop from the D800 is over 2100 pixels on the long size. Allowing me the latitude of printing an 8x10 or larger. From a photo taken across the street. Cropping to about 10% of the frame.

And it is PRECISELY for this reason...the ability to make lemonade out of lemons, that the D800 will be earning me money nearly every time I go shoot with it.

Click on image to view larger version



Oh and for the record, this was shot hand-held and my 300/2.8 does not have VR,

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rodantking

US
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#1. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

rodantking Registered since 14th Feb 2012
Sat 31-Mar-12 03:51 AM

I won't argue the 800 does add versatility that your 7000 didn't have but wouldn't have you ended up with the same thing if you u shot these on a 7000?

Why do u add non vr to your discription? I haven't shot any baseball, but I'm sure youre over 500th of a sec or the stitching would be clear at any megapixels. I'm guessing 1000+. Don't take any of this as rude, just trying to learn.

mrpenguin

Windsor, CA
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#2. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 1

mrpenguin Silver Member Nikonian since 09th Feb 2012
Sat 31-Mar-12 09:59 AM

>I won't argue the 800 does add versatility that your 7000
>didn't have but wouldn't have you ended up with the same thing
>if you u shot these on a 7000?
>
>Why do u add non vr to your discription? I haven't shot any
>baseball, but I'm sure youre over 500th of a sec or the
>stitching would be clear at any megapixels. I'm guessing
>1000+. Don't take any of this as rude, just trying to learn.

There is no way you will get that clear of a photo after cropping it with a D7000..... not even close

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#3. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 2

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sat 31-Mar-12 12:09 PM

>There is no way you will get that clear of a photo after
>cropping it with a D7000..... not even close
>

Agreed. Though I will say in this scenario, I would have had to crop less on a D7000 due to it being DX. But a crop of similar proportions (which I've had to do in the past) would have given a far less satisfying result.

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nrothschild

US
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#4. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 3

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sat 31-Mar-12 01:40 PM

Hi Perrone,

>> But a crop of similar proportions (which I've had to do in the past) would have given a far less satisfying result.

Since you have both cameras it would be interesting to hear your reasons why the D800 crop was better. Given that the sensor density is essentially identical and therefore the pixel dimensions of the cropped image would also be essentially identical.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#5. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 4

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sat 31-Mar-12 02:05 PM

>Hi Perrone,

>Since you have both cameras it would be interesting to hear
>your reasons why the D800 crop was better. Given that the
>sensor density is essentially identical and therefore the
>pixel dimensions of the cropped image would also be
>essentially identical.

They are NOT identical. They are directly PROPORTIONAL.

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nrothschild

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#6. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 5

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sat 31-Mar-12 07:12 PM

Hi Perrone,

>> They are NOT identical. They are directly PROPORTIONAL.

I think you need to explain what you are trying to say there.

Let me try another way. Stand a certain distance from a subject, and with the same focal length shoot the subject with both cameras, but shoot the D800 in DX crop mode.

The images will span the same field of view and the subject will span almost exactly the same number of pixels. The entire image boundaries will be virtually identical in terms of pixel dimensions.

There is no resolution advantage to the D800 over the D7000 as long as you shoot from the same working distance. If you shoot the D800 in FX mode then you just get additional "wasted pixels" (in the case of the deep crop here) in the form of the boundary around the two DX images that comprises the FX only area of it's larger sensor.

If you had shot the player from the same position and focal length with your D7000 the player would have spanned the same number of pixels and therefore there is no fundamental reason why the D800 would resolve your crop better.

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#7. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 6

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Sat 31-Mar-12 07:42 PM

>If you had shot the player from the same position and focal
>length with your D7000 the player would have spanned the same
>number of pixels and therefore there is no fundamental reason
>why the D800 would resolve your crop better.

Your presumption is that you have time and accuracy to get the subject inside the DX crop. When I shoot stationary birds that's a true assumption. Perrone is aiming at erratically moving subjects. Those wasted pixels are a buffer.

Think of it as a hand granade instead of a bullet.

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nrothschild

US
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#8. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 7

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sat 31-Mar-12 07:58 PM | edited Sat 31-Mar-12 09:56 PM by nrothschild

Hi Linwood,

That is not the context of the discussion here (strictly relative resolution) and the subject at hand was a a batter at home plate. Even I could keep that batter in the viewfinder while he took his swing

But since you bring it up, yes, the D800 would make it easier to shoot birds in flight, assuming the sensor area is wide enough (that's a problem on the D700 and D3). Never thought about that aspect. I just thought I was supposed to aim well . High density FX would be like cheating

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#9. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 6

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 02:07 AM

>Hi Perrone,
>
>>> They are NOT identical. They are directly
>PROPORTIONAL.
>
>I think you need to explain what you are trying to say there.
>
>Let me try another way. Stand a certain distance from a
>subject, and with the same focal length shoot the subject with
>both cameras, but shoot the D800 in DX crop mode.

For me, this is where the wheels fall off the wagon. Why on EARTH would I shoot the D800 in DX mode? No matter which camera I am shooting, it is my intention to fill the frame as much as possible with the lenses I have at my disposal.



>The images will span the same field of view and the subject
>will span almost exactly the same number of pixels. The
>entire image boundaries will be virtually identical in terms
>of pixel dimensions.

But I am not shooting the D800 in DX mode. But I do think I see where you are going.

>
>There is no resolution advantage to the D800 over the D7000 as
>long as you shoot from the same working distance.

Wrong. Your assumption is that I am using the same glass. If I fill the If I am sitting at first base and frame the batter on my D800, I am putting over 7000 pixels wide on that player. If I do the same with the D7000, it is closer to 5000.

>If you had shot the player from the same position and focal
>length with your D7000 the player would have spanned the same
>number of pixels and therefore there is no fundamental reason
>why the D800 would resolve your crop better.

Would you agree that the field of view with the two cameras would be different? What happens when we equalize field of view? Because THAT is how I tend to frame shots most often, as I suspect most people do. If I am able to fill the frame with an 85mm lens on an FX lens, I would not then put that 85 on my DX camera and try to frame because I would be too tight. The situation you describe holds in the instance where I cannot frame as intended. And it is PRECISELY this reason why I lament the loss of a Nikon pro body DX camera, and why I hope the D400 is a DX 24MP camera.

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nrothschild

US
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#10. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 9

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 01-Apr-12 11:38 AM | edited Sun 01-Apr-12 11:44 AM by nrothschild

Hi Perrone,

We're going round and round here over the two very different contexts of "resolution"...

1. You can fill the frame (final output not deeply cropped) but you want the most resolution possible, presumably to make a print larger than typical sizes.

2. You are reach limited. You are as close as you can get, and you are using the longest focal length you have available but you are still left with the need to do a deep crop.

When I looked at your baseball image here I'm thinking case #2 - you were reach limited, shooting from 1200 feet at 420mm. And you were suggesting the D7000 cannot produce that kind of resolution. That is NOT true on a fundamental level although all else is never 100% equal. Fundamentally you would be working with the same pixels.

Your title is "Why the D800 will make me money...". I don't think you are likely to make money shooting batters from outside the park, no matter how good that camera is. Someone inside the park will fill the frame and get the money shots. So I'm having trouble with your context here, which is shifting back and forth between case 1 and case 2 as you respond to various posts here.

In the case of your volleyball shots, you make a good case illustrating where a high density FX sensor straddles those two basic and very different requirements for extreme resolution. There you are intentionally shooting very loose in order to capture a very erratic or rapidly changing subject. And in that case I absolutely agree with you that the high density FX sensor offers the best of all worlds.

However, the subject at hand here is not volleyball, nor was volleyball or the erratic subject issue mentioned anywhere in your opening post here. I took the image at face value, as a classic example of a reach limited problem.

>> Wrong. Your assumption is that I am using the same glass. If I fill the If I am sitting at first base and frame the batter on my D800, I am putting over 7000 pixels wide on that player. If I do the same with the D7000, it is closer to 5000.

If you are at first base, do you have a professional need to put 7000
pixels across the subject? Will a 7000 pixel shot get you money you can't get with 5000 pixels? Even if you do, that is totally out of context of the sample image above.

This is one example of what I mean by your shifting contexts here. It makes for a confusing discussion

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#11. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 10

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 12:59 PM

Understood and agreed.

Let's put it in basic terms

1. In a situation where the subject can fill the frame on either the D800 or D7000, it is possible to put more pixels on the subject with the D800.

2. In scenarios where it is not possible to fill the frame with EITHER camera, the D7000 may/will be the equal (in terms of resolution) of the D800.

3. There are factors at play that may make one camera or the other a better solution depending on needs.


Now, as to your question about a need to put 7000 pixels on a subject versus 5000. Yes, there is professional need when posters are being made from these. In those cases, I'd prefer to be shooting with the 80MP Phase One. So for me, the more pixels the better.

Cool?

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nrothschild

US
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#12. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 11

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 01-Apr-12 03:08 PM | edited Sun 01-Apr-12 03:13 PM by nrothschild

Yea, that's cool

I would add though that in your #2, in the case where the D7000 is just able to fully frame a subject, then it will again be about equal in resolution. The equivalent density FX camera only excels in that area when it can frame near fully (larger than the DX sub-frame).

I'll also add that I can post equivalent crops to your example above, relative to the frame size, some birding images, and others a peculiar sport I shoot (competition jousting), that have equivalent sharpness in the crop. And the jousting images are shot with a D700. The birding images, almost exclusively shot with a D300, are better on a relative basis, benefiting from about 85% of the pixel level resolution of the D7000/D800 generally more static subjects.

Your image above almost surely suffers from a serious flaw totally outside your control, and that is the issue of air turbulence. Considering your estimated 1200 foot distance and the late hour of the day, and the terrain you likely shot across, I'm almost shocked the image is as good as it is.

I'm just pointing out that I think it is extraordinarily difficult to set up real world comparisons that accurately illustrate what that camera is capable of doing. And a 12 mpx image is really a tough bar to jump over unless everything is perfect, even those things out of our control.

I have a peculiar problem with my jousting work where I have two men on horses approaching each other at up to 35-40mph. I have two subjects, both converging at up to 60 feet per second. There is a certain very rare score that occurs when the riders are lance tip to lance tip. It happens maybe once in 150 passes. For the other 149 out of 150 passes I'm framed way too loose.

Very similar end result to your problem of following volleyball action.

But my own claim to fame, if I have one shooting sports, is that I have well captured 8 of those rare scores, where I have never seen it done even once by anyone else. Nor are the many participants that I know aware of such images.

It's very frustrating. Even more so, I could never shoot that sport with the frame rate limitations of that camera. Nor could I personally deal with the 300GB of images I would have to shoot in just the one weekend of the main annual competition without considerable uncompensated expense. There's not much money in jousting images .



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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#13. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 12

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 07:15 PM

I needed to see something today. So I packed up my D800, and pulled the d7000 out of mothballs, and took both back to the scene of the crime! From that same parking garage, shooting FSU v North Caroline. My results were surprising.

Atmospheric conditions today were horrible, so both cameras looked far less than their best. But as near as I can tell, the D7000 actually gave slightly more resolution on the shot than the D800. And again, this REALLY highlights just what we've lost by the pro models going from DX to FX with the change from the D2x to the D3. I would gladly trade one of my D3s cams for a DX version of the same.

Where is that D400!?

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nrothschild

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#14. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 13

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 01-Apr-12 09:01 PM

I think the one "mistake" with the D800 is that it could easily handle 8fps in DX mode. I understand why it can't in FX mode - bandwidth - but it should be able to handle 16 mpx images at 8fps. I think that was a "marketing bandwidth limitation", not a technical one.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#15. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 14

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 09:18 PM

>I think the one "mistake" with the D800 is that it
>could easily handle 8fps in DX mode. I understand why it
>can't in FX mode - bandwidth - but it should be able to handle
>16 mpx images at 8fps. I think that was a "marketing
>bandwidth limitation", not a technical one.

I have a sneaking suspicion we are going to see the next round of cameras (with the same processors) add this.

It pains me to know there is SO much time between now and a D4s. I don't want that D400 really. I want a pro body. But I may have to go there.

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nrothschild

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#16. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 15

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 01-Apr-12 10:12 PM

One more question... what do you think your shooting distance is here?

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#17. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 16

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 11:14 PM

EXIF data says 56.23 meters or 61.4 yards. I do not know if it's simply misreporting, or if it's off by a decimal place.

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nrothschild

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#18. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 17

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Mon 02-Apr-12 12:08 AM

I calculated 330 - 360 feet, based on estimating the height of the batter and ump, the FOV they spanned, etc.

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Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
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#19. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Sat 31-Mar-12 05:29 AM

Great shot Perrone.

Rob

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Thrillington

Lorton, US
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#20. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

Thrillington Registered since 05th May 2008
Sat 31-Mar-12 09:39 AM | edited Sat 31-Mar-12 12:28 PM by Thrillington

You're killing me, Perrone. I missed the first shipment by 1 body. Wasn't even concerned about it or overly anxious for the next shipment to come in until I started seeing your posts. Simply remarkable.

Help me stave off my anxiety over waiting... What's the worst thing for you about the D800 from your experience to date?

Dave

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#21. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 20

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sat 31-Mar-12 12:14 PM

>You're killing Perrone. I missed the first shipment by 1
>body. Wasn't even concerned about it or overly anxious for the
>next shipment to come in until I started seeing your posts.
>Simply remarkable.
>
>Help me stave off my anxiety over waiting... What's the worst
>thing for you about the D800 from your experience to date?
>
>Dave

The WORST thing is that the camera hurts me. It's too small for my big hands, and it physically hurts to use it. Especially since I use it vertically most of the time and have to reach over awkwardly to get on the shutter button.

The second worst thing is that I really have had to move to a "single shot" mindset as the camera is too slow to use the motor drive effectively for sports. But this was much the same on the D7000.

The last thing, and this was quite a surprise to me, was that the camera did NOT crop my DX lens properly. I was shocked when that happened. Maybe it's just my copy, or maybe it's a firmware issue, but when I put my 18-105 on it, the camera did not crop to fill the frame.

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Kidkett

Campo, US
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#22. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 21

Kidkett Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 09th Apr 2010
Sun 01-Apr-12 01:39 AM

Hi Perrone,

I was wondering about;

(The last thing, and this was quite a surprise to me, was that the camera did NOT crop my DX lens properly. I was shocked when that happened. Maybe it's just my copy, or maybe it's a firmware issue, but when I put my 18-105 on it, the camera did not crop to fill the frame.)

Was the camera set to: Auto DX crop ON? And wonder if this is going to be a problem with this camera. I haven't seen anyone shoot in DX format yet.

Thanks,
Bill

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#23. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 22

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 01:54 AM

Yes it was. First thing I checked. And I tried to set the image area manually, and it made no difference. This was certainly not the expected behavior. When I mount that lens on my D3s (as I did tonight) it works as expected.


>Hi Perrone,
>
>I was wondering about;
>Was the camera set to: Auto DX crop ON? And wonder if this
>is going to be a problem with this camera. I haven't seen
>anyone shoot in DX format yet.
>
>Thanks,
>Bill

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Thrillington

Lorton, US
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#24. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 21

Thrillington Registered since 05th May 2008
Sun 01-Apr-12 09:56 AM

>The last thing, and this was quite a surprise to me, was that
>the camera did NOT crop my DX lens properly. I was shocked
>when that happened. Maybe it's just my copy, or maybe it's a
>firmware issue, but when I put my 18-105 on it, the camera did
>not crop to fill the frame.

Are you talking about within the viewfinder?

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#25. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 24

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 01-Apr-12 11:34 AM

Yes.

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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#26. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Sat 31-Mar-12 09:48 AM

Remember ... At the heart of most Shakespearean tragedies lies jealousy ! Awesome handheld .... Please keep posting your findings !
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DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
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#27. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Sat 31-Mar-12 09:55 AM


Nice timing with the ball and bat! I cannot wait to try this out myself. Have fun.... ) (I wish that I still had my 300 f/2.8)

mbecke2266

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#28. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

mbecke2266 Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Jun 2011
Sat 31-Mar-12 02:32 PM

Not convinced the D800 was the reason for this great shot. The sensor in the D7000 dx camera is a cropped sensor anyways. I suspect your excellent quality lens, and your ability to focus accurately, provided you with the great photograph that you posted. Giving credit to the camera -- I don't think so.

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PerroneFord

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#29. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 28

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sat 31-Mar-12 02:41 PM

LOL ok!

I find it funny, that 3 weeks ago, all the talk here was that the D800 would need a tripod to give "best results" and due to pixel density that motion would be magnified, and that this lens or that lens wasn't on the approved Nikon list.

And I post here, a shot, taken with 420mm of glass, from about 1/4 mile away, handheld, and we're arguing about whether it was my skill or the camera.

I'll summarize it thusly. It was MY OPINION, owning both cameras, that the D800 allowed me to get this shot, and I am not convinced the D7000 would have allowed me to do the same. I may be right, or I may be wrong. But as I learned a long time ago, confidence in your gear is worth the difference in price...

>Not convinced the D800 was the reason for this great shot.
>The sensor in the D7000 dx camera is a cropped sensor anyways.
> I suspect your excellent quality lens, and your ability to
>focus accurately, provided you with the great photograph that
>you posted. Giving credit to the camera -- I don't think
>so.

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Omaha

Omaha, US
566 posts

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#30. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 0

Omaha Registered since 07th Jan 2012
Sat 31-Mar-12 02:50 PM

Nice shot! And a very interesting observation.

Maybe in a couple of years, we will no longer see the cluster of photographers on the sidelines at football games, all with big, long lenses. Just point your relatively short lens in the direction of the action, fire away, and trust that the shot you want will be in the crop somewhere.

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rodantking

US
93 posts

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#31. "RE: Why the D800 will make me money..." | In response to Reply # 30

rodantking Registered since 14th Feb 2012
Sat 31-Mar-12 04:33 PM | edited Sat 31-Mar-12 04:49 PM by rodantking

Come on if this is true I might want to rethink my passion for photography. Just point at somewhere from any location and crop? It will, more than liky, work into remote cameras, I don't seeing happening across the board. I personally don't see in this photo that is replaces long glass. Is it clear and sharp, yes, but who wants empty seats just as sharp as the batter. I'm not saying this is a bad shot and a good example of making the most out of your equipment, but I think it's save to say if he had longer glass he would have used it if this was not a test, but I think it was. Not so he could print this bigger than a 8x10 because that is unlikely to even have a demand, but for better subject isolation.

As for the dx won't do that, I still don't understand it. You already cropped well inside the dx sensor sive so it is a direct compression. basically if you had shot this with both cameras with the same lens you would end up with the same image with the same amount of pixels, sive and density. I'm no master photographer so mabe I'm wrong here but that is the way I understand the works of it. That be I said, I also understand that prof is in the print and sometimes you get improvement that don't really make all that much sense so I glad you posted up your impression.

G