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D800 Purple showing as Blue

timnew

US
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timnew Registered since 04th Dec 2012
Tue 04-Dec-12 04:03 AM

I went to a High School football game last Friday and decided to Play with the D800. It is one way I explore the capabilities of the camera plus educate myself. I am not a professional photographer nor am I new to photography having used Nikon F5 film camera and a Nikon D80 when I first started using a Digital (selected so I could use my existing lenses). In August I bought the D800. I have loved it and had no real issues except my sensor getting dirty (oil maybe?).

Anyway, while at the game on Friday, I was not able to get the purple uniforms of the team to render as purple. I tried different White Balance settings thinking it might be the stadium lights but couldn't see a noticeable difference in the uniform colors. I did NOT use a custom White Balance since I wasn't sure what temp to set nor did I have a good image to shoot to create a custom.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/577856_525084170843049_1785868371_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/12278_525084177509715_1024273805_n.jpg

Any suggestions? MOst of the photos were taken on ISO 6400 and Vivid. Would Neutral had rendered the colors purple?

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2807 posts

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#1. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 0

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 04-Dec-12 05:00 AM

1. Why would you shoot this in JPG? You have one of the best cameras on EARTH, and just turned it into a fancy point and shoot by shooting JPG. Especially under tricky lighting conditions.

2. Purple is a VERY hard color to render correctly. Most stadium lights do not emit the range of color spectrum to properly render purple. So you were likely fighting a battle that could not be won.

>I went to a High School football game last Friday and decided
>to Play with the D800. It is one way I explore the
>capabilities of the camera plus educate myself. I am not a
>professional photographer nor am I new to photography having
>used Nikon F5 film camera and a Nikon D80 when I first started
>using a Digital (selected so I could use my existing lenses).
>In August I bought the D800. I have loved it and had no real
>issues except my sensor getting dirty (oil maybe?).
>
>Anyway, while at the game on Friday, I was not able to get the
>purple uniforms of the team to render as purple. I tried
>different White Balance settings thinking it might be the
>stadium lights but couldn't see a noticeable difference in the
>uniform colors. I did NOT use a custom White Balance since I
>wasn't sure what temp to set nor did I have a good image to
>shoot to create a custom.
>
>


>
>

>
>Any suggestions? MOst of the photos were taken on ISO 6400
>and Vivid. Would Neutral had rendered the colors purple?

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ericbowles

Atlanta, US
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#2. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 0

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Tue 04-Dec-12 10:10 AM

As Perrone indicated, purple under stadium lights can be very difficult.

Your issue is with white balance - not picture control settings. You have several choices - you can set a proper white balance using the custom WB settings, or you can use the presets and try to get close. Either way, if you shoot RAW you can adjust during post processing while with JPEG files any changes become difficult.

A quick and easy way to set WB is to use Live View. While holding down the WB button, scroll through the choices. You'll probably find one WB option that is pretty close.

A custom WB is the best way to approach a need for JPEGs. With JPEGs, you need to get a correct WB. Since the lighting will be pretty stable, you can set the WB once and you are good for the evening.

I find Auto WB does not work very well for purple.

Vivid does increase color saturation and contrast, so depending on the situation it might be too saturated. I typically use Standard - but Vivid is a reasonable option depending on taste.

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timnew

US
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#3. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 2

timnew Registered since 04th Dec 2012
Tue 04-Dec-12 03:00 PM

Thanks for the replies. They more or less confirmed my suspicions but as I said Photography is something I love to do but have no formal training. I've taught myself piece by piece.

So why did I shoot jpg? I actually shot both using the dual cards. BUT processing RAW files is one piece I haven't yet taught myself. So I processed the jpg files to turn them around quicker. I still have the RAW files on my cf card to download to my computer.

So in essence, I need to get comfortable setting the custom WB feature.

And start learning how to process RAW files. Guess I need to learn how to use Lightroom 4.

Thanks again for the posts. For the record, the photos I was able to get at the game from the stands were VERY good under poor lighting - small High School football field.

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2807 posts

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#4. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 3

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 04-Dec-12 04:06 PM

I don't know what program you use to process JPGs, but in Lightroom, and several other programs, processing RAW is *EXACTLY* the same as procesing RAW. The only difference is there are a few more sliders and options that are not grayed out. If you couldn't see those sliders in Lightroom, you wouldn't know whether you had a JPG or a RAW loaded.

Custom WB is very helpful. In many instances. But in others it's nearly a waste of time. Many older artificial stadium lights cycle. And as they do, they change from a magenta to a green hue and back again. The WB of them is changing CONSTANTLY, and not all of the lights cycle at the same time. The indoor facility I shoot in most often does this, and I have to white balance every single photo independently in lightroom. I don't even bother with custom WB in that facility any more. I just set it on AUTO, shoot RAW, and adjust in post.

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RIW

Kings Lynn, UK
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#5. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 0

RIW Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2009
Tue 04-Dec-12 04:29 PM

Purple!

My life seems to be chasing purple.

For 30 years I have breeding Hibiscus syriacus and recording the results as colour chart numbers and photographically. In that time I have recorded over 15,000 plants. The two basic pigments in the flowers are a blue that tends to violet, and a red that tends to purple. They are present together and create the flower colour that is described by observers as red through purple to blue, or even pink when the pigment is sparse in the petals. Different films rendered them all red or all blue! It was a nightmare trying to get accurate matches in the darkroom. Rarely was the end result pleasing or accurate.

The human eye/brain sees purple when film sees red or blue. The paper pigments could not cope so even a good negative was marred in printing.

The digital era is bringing joy! In CS2 I could not get colours I could accept, but in CS6 I can re-process my old RAW files and get good results. The D800E now produces the best files yet. Processing is not however simple. I shoot WB on Auto and in ACR I expect to adjust Temperature and Tint to adjust to the light of the day. Then in Hue/Saturation/Luminance I normally adjust Yellow, Green, Purple and Magenta. The yellow and green to sort out the leaves and the purple and magenta the petal pigments. I can bring the flowers I photographed in to beside the computer to assist. However the viewing conditions in the computer room, and for the subsequent prints have to be taken into account.

This summer I took 1000 pictures of Marsh orchids in the wild. They are all purple and needed all my hard earned experience to get comparable final pictures. The time of day, sun strength, cloud etc all had to be allowed for.

At least Hibiscus and wild orchids don't get illuminated by stadium lights! I wish you success! Happy days moving colour sliders learning how not to spoil what a brilliant camera has taken.

I will end with a picture of one of my plants 'Pink Chiffon'. It looks pink, everybody calls it pink, but actually the pigments are purple and respond to the purple and magenta sliders in HSL in ACR. The original was taken with a D2X and 17 - 35 mm f 2.8 Nikkor @ f 13, ISO 100, 1/60 sec on 3.07.2008. Re-processed today in CS6.

Roderick

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timnew

US
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#6. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 4

timnew Registered since 04th Dec 2012
Tue 04-Dec-12 04:53 PM

Great. I suspect the lights at JC may in fact be like those. *LOL* Friday was the last football game for this year at that stadium. This Friday the team will be playing for the State Championship in their division at War Memorial Stadium in Little Rock - the lighting there will be better since it is used for the University of Arkansas and televised games.

Historically I have used Photoshop for any photo editing. I now have Lightroom 4 but haven't used it. I need to start playing with it I guess. I also have Aperture 3 but haven't used it enough to get a feel for it.

djmckaytx

Argyle, TX, US
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#7. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 0

djmckaytx Gold Member Nikonian since 20th Feb 2012
Tue 04-Dec-12 07:15 PM

I have to agree with the more experienced shooters here. Purple is tough, especially in anything other than natural light for me. I am resigned to using a custom WB using Expodisk and knowing that I may spend a lot of time in post. By the way (and not being judgmental here), I have to say I must agree about not shooting in JPEG.

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timnew

US
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#8. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 7

timnew Registered since 04th Dec 2012
Tue 04-Dec-12 11:16 PM

Until I learn what I'm doing with Lightroom 4 to edit Raw I will continue to shoot dual mode; jpg to 1 slot and Raw to the other slot. That way I have both. I'm moving "RAW" up on my list of things to learn. Some of my photos at the game were real interesting as some purple items would appear purple while others would be blue such as a spectator wearing a purple sweater while the Cheerleaders uniform comes out Blue.

But I'll play with Lightroom and I'll take more photos at the Championship game and see how it goes. Live and learn.

BTW I call it the 3 Ls of photography - Location, Lighting and Luck All 3 help.

dgberg

Mohnton,Pa., US
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#9. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 8

dgberg Dan is an accomplished photographer and fine art printer. With his fine art printing business and workshop experience he eagerly shares a unique perspective with all Nikonians - how to produce salable professional prints to discerning customers and teaching those skills. Registered since 25th Aug 2007
Wed 05-Dec-12 10:27 AM | edited Wed 05-Dec-12 10:30 AM by dgberg

I believe I heard you say this twice. "I will play with Lightroom"
I am sure it was just used as a figure of speech but still begs a comment.
Learning post processing is as important if not more then the shooting end of photography.
Learning to process should be at the top of your to do list and Lightroom is a great place to start.
The net is full of great videos,books and workshops.
I would start with the Lightroom 4 video series from Michael Reichman and Jeff Schewe from Luminous Landscape,well worth the price of admission. Several good Lightroom 4 books out there. Martin Evening,Scott Kelby to name a few, Another excellent book is The Digital Negative by Jeff Schewe. Probably the best to date for Raw image processing.
Your not done, next is color management and printing and that should tie you up for another couple of months. Before you know it it will be football season again. Yeaa!
Back to The Digital Negative only half read. So little time,so much to learn, sigh!!
All the best on your learning journey.

Dan Berg
www.bergscanvasgallery.com
www.bergscustomfurniture.com

ajdooley

Waterloo, US
3332 posts

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#10. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 0

ajdooley Gold Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006
Wed 05-Dec-12 08:02 PM

Another issue is how a sensor or film responds to different kinds fabrics under different types of lighting. I remember years ago when the Navy introduced their new synthetic material khakis and under strobe flashes, they took on a subtle, but distinct purple tinge. Especially when you are dealing with discontinuous spectrum lamps such as fluorescents, different fabrics just look different colors. And how can we ever forget bubble knit blouses, which were rendered almost transparent under some strobe lighting! The best practice is to shoot raw and to try to adjust in post processing.

Alan
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grizzly200

Solano County, California, US
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#11. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 1

grizzly200 Registered since 18th Dec 2011
Wed 05-Dec-12 09:27 PM

I see the helmets as more purple, and the uniforms not the same shade--slightly more blue. I would also suggest shooting RAW, as you have more control over WB in post-processing.

James

KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
4955 posts

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#12. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 5

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006
Thu 06-Dec-12 01:56 AM

Interesting post! Thanks for the description of your experience...

Best regards, SteveK

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timnew

US
13 posts

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#13. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 9

timnew Registered since 04th Dec 2012
Thu 06-Dec-12 03:02 AM

>I believe I heard you say this twice. "I will play with
>Lightroom"
>I am sure it was just used as a figure of speech but still
>begs a comment.
>Learning post processing is as important if not more then the
>shooting end of photography.
>Learning to process should be at the top of your to do list
>and Lightroom is a great place to start.
>The net is full of great videos,books and workshops.
>I would start with the Lightroom 4 video series from Michael
>Reichman and Jeff Schewe from Luminous Landscape,well worth
>the price of admission. Several good Lightroom 4 books out
>there. Martin Evening,Scott Kelby to name a few, Another
>excellent book is The Digital Negative by Jeff Schewe.
>Probably the best to date for Raw image processing.
>Your not done, next is color management and printing and that
>should tie you up for another couple of months. Before you
>know it it will be football season again. Yeaa!
>Back to The Digital Negative only half read. So little time,so
>much to learn, sigh!!
>All the best on your learning journey.
>


Yes to me all things related to Photography are play - I do them for fun. So when I say I need to start playing with Lightroom, that means I need to use some of my time using it and learning it. Thanks for the advice. That book "Digital Negative" is one I located online and plan to be acquiring soon.

elec164

US
2578 posts

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#14. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 8

elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009
Thu 06-Dec-12 02:30 PM | edited Thu 06-Dec-12 02:30 PM by elec164

>Some of my photos at the
>game were real interesting as some purple items would appear
>purple while others would be blue such as a spectator wearing
>a purple sweater while the Cheerleaders uniform comes out
>Blue.
>

To me this goes beyond a WB issue, as such it’s not a settings issue but a physics problem. And it appears especially evident as such with this statement.

It has been inferred but not mentioned directly, but to me it seems to be an issue with metamerism. As such the only way to correct it is in PP. You could do a custom-WB which may help the uniform color at the expense of the rest of the image color balance. It’s sort of a perfect storm of physics. It’s a fundamental difference between the way our eye/brain combination interrupts color and the ability of the sensor to record it coupled with the broken spectrum light source.

This is not a unique or rare issue and this topic has been discussed before. Just do a net search for “with digital image purple looks blue” and you will receive a number of interesting discussions.

Pete

Pete

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ericbowles

Atlanta, US
10552 posts

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#15. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 14

ericbowles Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge and high level skills in various areas, especially Landscape and Wildlife Photoghraphy Writer Ribbon awarded for for his article contributions to the community Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 25th Nov 2005
Thu 06-Dec-12 02:55 PM

It's a bit simpler than that. Like metering, the camera's auto WB function considers the scene. In a scene with purple clothing dominating the center of the image, the camera tries to neutralize that color by making it cooler - and it turns out blue. In the scene where white or other neutral colors dominate the center of the image, the camera's auto WB calculation tries to make that area neutral - and as a result purple turns out okay.

As Pete described, a typical image has many different sources of light at different color temperatures. A scene may also have many different colors and color temperatures. So the camera does its best to guess on which one is correct, but it does not really know. And you might have a scene with areas of the image that have two different color temperatures. If you have two different color temperatures of light, the only option is to correct color in PP.

The added issue is correct WB may not be neutral. We have warm light at the golden hours. You have warm sunsets. Candles give off a warm glow. And ice is a cool color. So even if you neutralize the light in these situations, your image may not be a correct representation of what you saw. A neutral WB gives you a starting point, but may not always be the answer.

Purple showing up as blue is a very typical WB issue. If you are using auto WB it happens. Pinks, some reds, and even some blues have this problem and require extra care or post processing.

Fellow moderator Scott Chapin photographs a lot of marching bands. He was the one who showed me the Live View trick and it works like a charm. There are more precise methods, but it gets you very close to correct WB with minimal effort.

In this case you have to set WB for correct rendering of purple uniforms and whatever it means to the rest of the image is probably not a big issue.

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danshep

Olympia, US
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#16. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 15

danshep Gold Member Charter Member
Thu 06-Dec-12 03:55 PM


What would happen, if one used the on-board flash for a little extra pop and catch lights? Would the purple show true?


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timnew

US
13 posts

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#17. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 15

timnew Registered since 04th Dec 2012
Sat 08-Dec-12 05:52 AM


>
>Fellow moderator Scott Chapin photographs a lot of marching
>bands. He was the one who showed me the Live View trick and
>it works like a charm. There are more precise methods, but it
>gets you very close to correct WB with minimal effort.
>

>
>Eric Bowles
>Nikonians Team
>My Gallery
>Workshops
>
>Nikonians membership — my most important photographic
>investment, after the camera

Thanks for the Live View Trick. It made fine tuning the WB very easy. Unfortunately for me, my D800 quit autofocusing before halftime. This isn't the left focus issue. It won't focus automatically at all. I'll be interested to see how well my second half shots were using manual focusing.

Clint S

Chula Vista, US
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#18. "RE: D800 Purple showing as Blue" | In response to Reply # 17

Clint S Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2011
Sat 08-Dec-12 07:32 AM

For your photos with the blue uniforms, open them in Camera RAW and adjust the temperature to about a +15 or +18. Or open the photo in Photoshop, add a Photo filter, Warming Filter 85, and set it at about 38%. You'll find your purples.

The D800's auto white balance is pretty amazing but there is still some lighting that challenges it. RAW is one solution. Leraning how to set a custom white balance or using something like a X-Rite ColorChecker may help as well.

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