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Video Moire to E or not to E

mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Sun 20-May-12 01:31 AM

I was wondering if the D800e has more VIDEO moire than the D800. I know it has more chance of moire with still photography, but the sharpness is a good risk reward imho.

Any video issue would tend to make me stick with my D800 rather than re-ordering an E.

Thanks


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aztwang

Avondale, US
408 posts

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#1. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 0

aztwang Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2009
Sun 20-May-12 12:18 AM

According to a video'd Nikon interview, there are no moire issues at least no more than a standard D800
.

"Technical aspects MUST be innate"



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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#2. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 0

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Sun 20-May-12 01:23 AM

This Nikon guy says that the D800 is better for video ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lR-2HVulN4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#3. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 2

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sun 20-May-12 04:32 AM

You do NOT want the "E" for video... It will make a bad thing worse.

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km6xz

St Petersburg, RU
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#4. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 2

km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009
Sun 20-May-12 05:17 AM

There is no easy or effective way to remove moire from video despite a few applications which claim to help.
If you are into video, the d800 is your tool, a D800e would be potential trouble with every take. If used for client work, that is a major risk that could kill your project budget and your reputation in the marketplace.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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aztwang

Avondale, US
408 posts

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#5. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 4

aztwang Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2009
Sun 20-May-12 06:40 AM | edited Tue 29-May-12 12:40 AM by jrp

Thats what I thought, but this video interviewed a Nikon Tech Rep and he states
D800E video ist the same as a D800. So which is it....?
.

"Technical aspects MUST be innate"

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true_superfly

US
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#6. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 5

true_superfly Registered since 27th Mar 2012
Tue 29-May-12 02:04 AM

> Thats what I thought, but this video interviewed a Nikon
>Tech Rep and he states
>D800E video ist the same as a D800. So which is it....?


Since just video quality is of concern, why the agonizing pain?

If "E" is "the same" as a D800, then what do you have to lose to choose a D800 anyway?

Not to mention D800 literally PAYS YOU $200 to give you a non-aliasing filter.

superfly

PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#7. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 5

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 29-May-12 02:10 AM

> Thats what I thought, but this video interviewed a Nikon
>Tech Rep and he states
>D800E video ist the same as a D800. So which is it....?

It is absolutely not the same. I don't care WHAT the rep said. We've been fighting moire and aliasing in these DSLRS since the day DSLR video was born. And that's WITH the AA filter. These cameras simply do not resolve enough detail in video mode to make moire a non factor. Removal of the AA filter will guarantee issues in filming.

Philip Bloom (essentially the Thom Hogan of the Nikon video world) did a nice comparison of the D800/D800E, 5DMk3, and the D4. VERY telling, and the results came down about as we would have expected.

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pollarda

Provo, US
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#8. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 7

pollarda Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Feb 2007
Tue 29-May-12 03:17 AM

I have a hard time seeing how the D800E would be any different than the D800. Why? Simply because with both having 36MP they must both be down-sampled significantly in order to have the appropriate resolution for video.

1080p is 1080x1920 = 2MP. So that is approximately 18 to 1 (ignoring a bit of the crop factor off the 36mp when you shoot video.) So roughly, we are getting a 4x4 block of pixels resolving to a single pixel when down-sampled.

If you are taking a 4x4 block of pixels and down-sampling them to a single pixel, it won't matter a whit how sharp or not the individual pixels are in the 4x4 block.

Is there something I'm missing?

I should also point out that Zeiss also makes a series of slightly bluring filters that are designed to work as an AA filter. Admittedly they aren't exactly the same thing but given that they come from Zeiss they will be pretty darn good. If someone is really worried about moire, I suspect these filters should serve quite well.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#9. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 8

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 29-May-12 04:18 AM | edited Tue 29-May-12 04:19 AM by PerroneFord

>I have a hard time seeing how the D800E would be any
>different than the D800. Why? Simply because with both having
>36MP they must both be down-sampled significantly in order to
>have the appropriate resolution for video.

Well, you can believe it or not. Up to you.

>Is there something I'm missing?

Yes. You are assuming that we are starting with a 36MP image. And you are also assuming that the internal processor is capable of downsampling that image CLEANLY. These are two false assumptions.

The most effective ways to get CLEAN downsampling would be the Lanczos sampling method, or a bicubic spline. Both methods are used in high end video work, and Lanczos is even quite effective in upsampling video as evidenced by the numerous BluRay players that now upsample to HD. The problem with Lanczos and Bicubic is that they are VERY computationally expensive. Thus neither can be used in a real-time situation in the camera. So we have to fall back on more crude methods. The problem with those crude methods is that they tend to only sample a small part of the data and thus exacerbate the issues of moire and skew. We used to call this the "jello effect" that affected CMOS sensors because cameras were not fast enough to read the entire sensor in one go. It's been improved but not entirely eliminated.


>I should also point out that Zeiss also makes a series of
>slightly bluring filters that are designed to work as an AA
>filter. Admittedly they aren't exactly the same thing but
>given that they come from Zeiss they will be pretty darn good.

Maybe, maybe not. The Zeiss name does not automatically make it great. Though there are those who believe that.


> If someone is really worried about moire, I suspect these
>filters should serve quite well.

And yes, there are numerous filters that are effective. Some of the most effective over the last few years go directly over the sensor. Mosaic engineering is the manufacturer of the most popular of these (http://www.mosaicengineering.com/products/vaf.html) and has recently announced an effective filter for the D800. I have seen the beta of this and it is VERY effective.

Believe me, many of us have plied this road for over 4 years now. We've seen the issues, dealt with the problems, found workarounds, and have produced broadcast or silver screen level work. Not to sound flippant here, but if you haven't walked this path, you simply do not know what you don't know.

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km6xz

St Petersburg, RU
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#10. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 9

km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009
Tue 29-May-12 05:41 AM

To put things into perspective, with the additional hardware required for serious video work with a DSLR at the level the D800 is capable of, the very least consideration is a do-everything, compromise single camera.
Based on total costs of support systems, the natural answer is for the relatively trivial extra cost to get both a D800 for video and a D800E for stills. Have you priced out the video specific hardware needed to generate D800 worthy video production? Or taken a survey of the budgets required for that level of work, even if the camera is now relatively cheap?
If you have seen Perrone's work, you would be a bit less resistant to take his advice.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2807 posts

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#11. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 10

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 29-May-12 06:05 AM

LOL,

I remember stumbling into the world of filmmaking from the still world. Having been exposed to the likes of high end Nikon's and Canons. Imagine my surprise when I learned that the common prime lenses for filmmaking were running about $15k... EACH! Steadicam was $10k, basic light kit was $4k, microphone and recorder $3k. It was sobering.

I fielded question after question from newbie filmmakers basically asking how to shoot in the dark since the new DSLRs were SO good in the dark. I casually tried explaining to them how much light Hollywood used with cameras costing orders of magnitude more than their own cameras. They didn't listen and continued to produce noisy messes. I remember watching HBO films come to my building to shoot "Recount". They brought their light kit in an 18-wheeler.

DSLR video has come a LONG way in 4 years. A mighty long way. But some of the fundamentals still hold. And DSLRs are still considered crash cams in Hollywood for the most part.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#12. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 11

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 29-May-12 06:19 AM

Rather than me babbling on, watch Bloom show the differences here:

https://vimeo.com/42065372


Considering George Lucas flew him out to Skywalker ranch 2 years ago to train those guys on DSLR video (for the movie Red Tails), I suspect Bloom might be considered something of an expert at this.

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jtmcg

Simsbury, US
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#13. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 12

jtmcg Moderator Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Awarded for his high level skills, specially in Wildlife, Macro & Landscape Photography Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 22nd Mar 2007
Tue 29-May-12 08:55 AM

Interesting video comparison. Thanks for posting

One thing about the linked video itself is that any motion (like Bloom's hands or even his mouth when speaking) was pixilated. This made the comparison difficult to see because any movement of turned to hash (especially in low light with the model). Did anyone else experience this?

John

geoffc

San Pedro, US
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#14. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 8

geoffc Registered since 21st Apr 2008
Tue 29-May-12 11:49 AM

I've wondered about this same topic myself. I shoot architecture, and will use video for paid work, so I have been wary of the D800e. But of course I'm wildly curious if the issues & rumors are true to a noticeable detriment over the D800. I will rent an E shortly to do my own tests.
I'm downloading PB's review now.
But I can tell you right away that even on the D800 the moire/aliasing is an issue compared to my GH2. I think Pollarda above makes an excellent case how the E will mostly likely produce 99% the same result as the non-E version for video.
Especially considering (and I have not yet watched PB's video, just many others) that if you're looking to shoot DSLR video primarily, you will not be going with a D800 in the first place.

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pollarda

Provo, US
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#15. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 9

pollarda Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Feb 2007
Tue 29-May-12 02:06 PM

<quote>Not to sound flippant here, but if you haven't walked this path, you simply do not know what you don't know.</quote>

Well, that is why I was asking -- what am I missing? Given that the image is downsampled -- or simply an appropriate number of pixels are sampled throughout the image, why would the D800 be substantially different than the D800E? There is a huge drop of resolution between what the sensor can resolve and video and moire is going to reflect the interaction of patterns with the video resolution -- not the overall resolution of the camera.

BTW: Yes, I'm familiar with Mosaic Engineering's filters. But at least for my needs, I'm not going to spend the money for an D800E -- let alone the crazy wait just to put a filter on it. I agree in regards to the various downsampling methods -- my background is in software development which is what funded my latest venture.

So again, I ask -- what am I missing?

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#16. "RE: Video Moire to E or not to E" | In response to Reply # 15

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Tue 29-May-12 02:13 PM

>So again, I ask -- what am I missing?

In the most basic sense, the sharper the starting image, the more issue of moire you are going to have. What we found was that by making sharper starting images, the sampling methods the DSLRs used exacerbated the problem. Using old lenses that didn't resolve nearly the detail of modern glass, the problems of moire nearly went away. M42 screw-mount glass nearly tripled in price over the course of 6 months.

When Zeiss decided to do Canon mount glass, various people tested it and all found the same thing. Moire and aliasing went off the charts.

So in essence here, things that make the starting image sharper, produce more moire and aliasing in the end video under certain conditions. There is no doubt the D800E starts off with a sharper image than the D800. And thus based on 4 years of empirical data, we understand that it is going to make a bad scenario worse.

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