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How do you back up your D800 files

yellowz

Nanzdietschweiler, DE
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yellowz Registered since 05th Sep 2009
Wed 16-May-12 07:39 PM

So I'm just curious what you guys are doing to back up your shots from a D800? I import to my desktop and an external HD at the same time. I'm having no problems at all working with the images even though they are huge. BUT, after PP and sorting etc I'm still left with folders on my desktop that are WELL over the 4.7gb of a standard DVD-R. I'm just wondering what suggestions you may have on physical backups? Thanks in advance.

Sean

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2817 posts

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#1. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 16-May-12 06:16 PM

I use BluRay. Just like I have for the past 4 years.

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yellowz

Nanzdietschweiler, DE
178 posts

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#2. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 1

yellowz Registered since 05th Sep 2009
Wed 16-May-12 06:21 PM

External drive? Also, how much is the media now/where do you buy it from?

This is the one thing I didn't think about when moving up from my D200 (not that it's a deal breaker at all). I just completely looked over it.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#3. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 2

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 16-May-12 06:43 PM

Yes, I have an external drive. I think mine is an LG, but lots of people make them. As for media, I just check on Amazon or PriceGrabber to see who's got prices for what I need. Prices are about $1.50 a disk in bulk or slightly less.. that's for 25GB. The 50GB disks are quite a bit more expensive.

Most of my day shoots are less than 32GB, so it costs me about $3 to archive a shoot. I consider that cheap. Less than a roll of 12 exposure film.

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yellowz

Nanzdietschweiler, DE
178 posts

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#4. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 3

yellowz Registered since 05th Sep 2009
Wed 16-May-12 06:46 PM

That's really not bad at all. I'll give that a look. Thanks Perrone!

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mrpenguin

Windsor, CA
306 posts

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#5. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 3

mrpenguin Silver Member Nikonian since 09th Feb 2012
Wed 16-May-12 06:49 PM

I have a blu-ray writer but what is the shelve life of a Bluray disc ? what I mean is that I heard CD's and DVD's only last around 5 years or so before they loose integrity and stop working.

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yellowz

Nanzdietschweiler, DE
178 posts

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#6. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 5

yellowz Registered since 05th Sep 2009
Wed 16-May-12 06:55 PM

That's a little unnerving. If that's the case, what are the options: multiple redundant external drives that get replaced when they #### out and copied from another?

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mchess1

west palm beach, US
56 posts

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#7. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 6

mchess1 Registered since 15th May 2010
Wed 16-May-12 07:24 PM

There's always a drobo if you want redundant backups. Too slow for editing but great for backups.

http://www.drobo.com/products/professionals/drobo/index.php

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2817 posts

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#8. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 5

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 16-May-12 07:26 PM

>I have a blu-ray writer but what is the shelve life of a
>Bluray disc ? what I mean is that I heard CD's and DVD's only
>last around 5 years or so before they loose integrity and stop
>working.

Well, considering that data archival is one of the things I do for my government employment and have for over 15 years, I have some thoughts on the matter...

Neither CD/DVD nor BluRay is archival. This we know. However, I have CDs that are over 10 years old that work just fine. My oldest BluRay's are from 2007 and they also work just fine. Back then, 25GB BluRay's were $29. and 50GB were $52. Each.

Hard Drives are problematic for long term storage because they contain moving parts that require lubrication. If you leave them sitting for a year or two, they tend not to spin up. I have a LOT more confidence in a disk that has zero moving parts and is stored away from light, than I do in a hard drive that has dozens of moving parts.

If you want to go to the methods of the big boys then look into DLT or similar solutions. But bring your Visa card because those solutions are running about $15-2500 for the drive, and north of $100 per tape last I checked. For the price of BluRay, I can afford to migrate them every 5 years or as often as I deem necessary.

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yellowz

Nanzdietschweiler, DE
178 posts

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#9. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 8

yellowz Registered since 05th Sep 2009
Wed 16-May-12 07:34 PM

That sounds ok...Back to looking for BR burners

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kartane

AU
163 posts

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#10. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 8

kartane Registered since 23rd Apr 2012
Wed 16-May-12 09:46 PM

CD's have 30% extra space devoted to error checking built in. DVD's have about 10%. Not sure about BR.

At the beginning CD's were made to different standards, including archival quality. The manufactures did not make the consumer aware of these differences so we brought on price, not realising there was a difference. Who remembers seeing CD's labelled as Gold, Silver, etc? By the time DVD's started price was king so we all brought lower quality.

Apparently re-copying to new media every 5 years will help.

Cloud storage seems to be a low cost solution for offsite storage today.

Colin

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gorji

Jamesville, US
311 posts

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#11. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

gorji Registered since 07th Jan 2007
Wed 16-May-12 10:19 PM

IMO there is no good solution to archival at this moment except for redundancy.
DVDs and CDs are susceptible to DVD rot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot). Hard drives like Perone said have moveable parts and there is magnetism involved therefore the fields are in flux.
Since there is no good answer, I back up on a drive but have redundant copies.
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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
2817 posts

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#12. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 10

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 16-May-12 10:57 PM

>CD's have 30% extra space devoted to error checking built in.
> DVD's have about 10%. Not sure about BR.

BR has the most aggressive error checking of any of these media. Including during mastering, which is why you see VERY few BR coasters getting burned.

>At the beginning CD's were made to different standards,
>including archival quality. The manufactures did not make the
>consumer aware of these differences so we brought on price,

Maybe some did. Not in my business we didn't.

>not realising there was a difference. Who remembers seeing
>CD's labelled as Gold, Silver, etc?

I do, and we paid a premium for the best we could afford. And we had no issues either.

>By the time DVD's started
>price was king so we all brought lower quality.

Again, no "we" didn't. My office and others who sought to protect data bought the best we could find.


>Apparently re-copying to new media every 5 years will help.

Yes, because the data goes through CRC check during the copy to ensure everything is ok and the data is preserved again on new media.


>Cloud storage seems to be a low cost solution for offsite
>storage today.

Cloud storage is prohibitively expensive for most. Especially when you are talking about Terabytes worth of information. And how many here can afford the bandwidth costs to move 16-100GB per week onto cloud storage? Even worse, the download costs to get your data BACK is where many of these companies make their money. I think I priced one package out where it would have cost me about $50 a month to store my data, but over $5000 to get it back. I can burn 10 years worth of BluRay for that kind of money.

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LMMiller9

Potomac, US
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#13. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 5

LMMiller9 Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2005
Wed 16-May-12 11:43 PM

I don't know where you heard that a DVD will only last for five years before losing integrity. I think if you research the matter you will find that there is no basis for that. Most estimates from legitimate sources indicate that 50-200 years is a better guess.

Although the truth is that no one knows because they haven't been around that long. The same can be said of virtually every other electronic media.

Larry Miller, Potomac, MD
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LMMiller9

Potomac, US
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#14. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 11

LMMiller9 Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2005
Wed 16-May-12 11:45 PM

I think that is the right answer!

I use the primary hard drive on my desktop, then have a 2.5 terabyte drive that the desktop automatically backs up to every morning. The moment anything begins to go wrong with either of these, I will immediately go to Best Buy and by another xx terabyte drive. Those cost of these drives is so low, it is an easy price to pay for the redundancy.

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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#15. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 14

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Wed 16-May-12 11:53 PM

>I think that is the right answer!
>
>I use the primary hard drive on my desktop, then have a 2.5
>terabyte drive that the desktop automatically backs up to
>every morning. The moment anything begins to go wrong with
>either of these, I will immediately go to Best Buy and by
>another xx terabyte drive. Those cost of these drives is so
>low, it is an easy price to pay for the redundancy.

This model is unsustainable for me. I keep my working data on a 2TB drive. That data is backed up on a separate 2TB drive. Right now, I need to flip these once every 6 months. By the end of 2012, I will need to flip them once per quarter or move to larger drives. At present, that's $500 per flip. Hard drives are not, and have never been archival. The manufacturers will tell you that, the testers will tell you that, and empirical data will tell you that. Those who think they can store their drives as "arcival media" for more than 2-3 years are in for a very nasty surprise.

I manage over 100TB on a daily basis at my office. Nothing is ever spun down. EVER. Letting a drive sit idle for long periods will kill it stone dead. Again, I will either go to tape which is built for this purpose but expensive, or onto optical media with NO moving parts and nothing to ever wear out.

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mkaplan

Kitchener, CA
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#16. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

mkaplan Gold Member Nikonian since 04th Apr 2012
Thu 17-May-12 12:48 AM

I write them to my Main Photo Partition on a 1.5TB RAID which also includes my O/S and other things. They then get written to an 8TB NAS drive running RAID 5 which gives me about 5.5TBs of space. After the RAW's are written to my backup NAS drive, only then do I delete the files off my CF/SD card(s).
Then, I am going to (but haven't yet) write my RAW files to Blu-Ray and leave them out of my apartment in case of fire or theft of all my computer stuff.

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
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#17. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Thu 17-May-12 01:02 AM

I use a combination of on-site raid drives, and off-site cloud storage, combined with heavy culling.

I don't back up terrabytes because I don't keep everything I shoot. I don't keep 10% of what I shoot.

If you work commercially where you have to keep every shot, well, good luck as you buy a 36mp camera. But for most people ask yourself, do you really need those 15 shots of the same blue heron, or would just the best one do? Or those 5 shots of uncle Joe at Thanksgiving snoozing in the chair -- it's funny, but do you need 5 of them?

I've got about 150G and growing. On S3 storage that's about $25/mo for upload and storage, with full redundancy not reduced (they give 30% for reduced).

Will I do this as my D800 drives me to 500G? Don't know, but I'd wager that as my need grows, cloud storage will reduce in cost, and internet speed goes up (i just upgraded from 800k to 2M up.

If I wanted to do it all myself (and I may one day), I'd do it by multiple copies on large hard drives, with regular updates and integrity checks (e.g. a checksum of the files, not just a CHKDISK). As said - hard drives fail. A lot. But so does everything else. I start with the assumption everyting will fail in a few years. I'd just make sure I had multiple copies (I'd probably opt for at least 2, maybe 3, plus the working copy).

I'd also make sure I stored one copy off site in a place not succeptible to the same risks of my house. Since I'm in Florida and that includes Hurricanes, that means storing them in... well, probably Georgia. And that makes keeping it updated hard.

Which is why for now I use the cloud. Plus my own copy at home.

Perrone is right to worry about media, but even buying high quality just means it fails less. The only way to avoid loosing images is a combination of multiple copies and regular integrity (and readability) checks.


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skibud1

US
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#18. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

skibud1 Registered since 01st Apr 2012
Thu 17-May-12 11:21 PM

I use lightroom for managing my photos. I have an external usb drive (soon to be a new usb-3 model), and I use a freeware program called "syncback" to nightly (automatically) copy any changes in my lightroom catalog (and photos) to the external drive. Could not be much easier.

At one point, I have a second usb drive, and used it as a duplicate backup (again, just using the same utility, but picking a different time to sync.

Using windows 7.

Regards,

ajdooley

Waterloo, US
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#19. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 11

ajdooley Gold Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006
Fri 18-May-12 12:12 PM | edited Fri 18-May-12 12:15 PM by ajdooley

Indeed -- redundancy. In fact, I download to my desk top when I get home, which has a second 2gb hard drive, then immediately back up twice to two external hard drives. On the road, I download to a lap top and try to bring the cards home if I don't need to format them. I feel having a number of them is good insurance anyhow, and I use a maxiumu of 8gb cards, which give me 250 RAW and mediumJPGs. I don't like too many eggs in one basket. Then when I have sorted and deleted defective images at home, (a way to be seen as a good shooter is to hide your mistakes!), and maybe edited for use, than I reback up that modified folder.

Does it take time? Yes. Does it make me feel better and more secure? Yes. Nothing that is that critical is without pain and cost.

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Waterloo, IL, USA
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klrbee25

Naples, US
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#20. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

klrbee25 Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2006
Fri 18-May-12 12:17 PM

I have one of the WD combo RAID drives (pair of 2TB drives, comes in a pair of 3TB version too) that automatically mirrors each drive's contents. It's a firewire 800 drive and I just keep my Aperture library on this external RAID drive.

For added security, I back up the RAID array to another external HD every other night with DataBackup.

Works great and no worries about losing data.

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klrbee25

Naples, US
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#21. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 15

klrbee25 Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jun 2006
Fri 18-May-12 12:19 PM

FWIW, I've found DVD burning to be very unreliable in the long run. Many of your typical disc types are not good for archiving and the data will be corrupt in a few year's time. The good archival discs are expensive and my stupid Mac can't burn BluRay anyway.


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aay

CA
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#22. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 7

aay Registered since 11th Jul 2010
Fri 18-May-12 08:53 PM

Drobo is a horrible solution.

Alex
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aay

CA
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#23. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 12

aay Registered since 11th Jul 2010
Fri 18-May-12 09:00 PM

Totally agree with you on cloud storage. It is amazing how many people just don't understand the mechanics of that and follow PR talks.

Alex
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aay

CA
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#24. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 19

aay Registered since 11th Jul 2010
Fri 18-May-12 09:04 PM

8GB = 250 Raw? Hrmm.. You are not talking about D800, are you? I got mine yesterday and after some brief consideration got a very expensive 32 GB CF card - I can fit only 400 Raw on that card! Ouch..

Alex
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aay

CA
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#25. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 16

aay Registered since 11th Jul 2010
Fri 18-May-12 09:05 PM

RAID is a bad solution. Especially hardware RAID.

Also, I would suggest having a separate physical drive for OS and a separate drive for your data (documents, photos, etc).

Alex
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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5757 posts

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#26. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 25

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Fri 18-May-12 10:48 PM

>RAID is a bad solution. Especially hardware RAID.

As opposed to what -- non-raid?

If you mean as a total solution, it is incomplete. But Raid is the standard for rotating storage today, and generally for SSD. And (good) hardware raid is generally superior to software raid, certainly performance wise but I think it is generally more reliable.

>Also, I would suggest having a separate physical drive for OS
>and a separate drive for your data (documents, photos, etc).

Not a bad idea, though it is usually taken too literally. I don't know how many people build a raid set, and then partition it for just that reason. That's mostly pointless and generally a bad idea performance wise.

Here are the rules:

- Everything will eventually fail.

- You can never avoid data loss, only reduce the probability

- You must have redundancy to significantly redunce the probability of failure.

- You must do integrity checks frequently enough to ensure you are not backing up bad data.

You can attack those last two in a variety of ways, but if you don't buy into the first two you will fail. There is NO media that is safe as the only copy. And you can make periodic full backups to lots of copies but it won't help if you corrupt the original and don't notice and then copy it over all of your redundant copies.


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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#27. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 22

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Sat 19-May-12 12:59 PM

Why do you say that ? I use one Drobo connected locally that backs up every night to my Drobo FS. Works great so far. Love not having to deal with raid.


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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#28. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Sat 19-May-12 01:03 PM | edited Sat 19-May-12 01:05 PM by mdonovan

Local SSD Drive for working ... copy/move selects (keepers) to Drobo ... Drobo backs up nightly to Drobo FS. Works great so far. (5 years)
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PerroneFord

Tallahassee, US
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#29. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 21

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011
Sat 19-May-12 01:43 PM

Why can't you burn bluray on your Mac? I do. Works fine.

>FWIW, I've found DVD burning to be very unreliable in the
>long run. Many of your typical disc types are not good for
>archiving and the data will be corrupt in a few year's time.
>The good archival discs are expensive and my stupid Mac can't
>burn BluRay anyway.
>
>
>-Alex Rosen
>www.flickr.com/photos/klrbee25/

Visit
>my
>Nikonians gallery>.


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mdonovan

Mahwah, US
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#30. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 29

mdonovan Gold Member Charter Member
Sat 19-May-12 01:54 PM

You can totally burn blu ray on Macs ... you just cant WATCH blu rays in OSX yet.
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RodW

AU
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#31. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

RodW Registered since 25th Mar 2012
Sun 20-May-12 07:09 AM

I back up to synology NAS and it can back up to another volume without my involvement. My 5 drive system can store up to 12 TB RAID if I buy a few more drives and if that is not enough, I can add another two 5 bay expansion units and sync with another NAS on the network and cloud storage as well. I think if backup is on your mind, have a good look at Synology, QNAP and others as they do a lot more than just backup data. They give you access to the sort of redundancy the big data centers use for not a lot of $.

Rod W
Brisbane, QLD, Australia

deenab

US
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#32. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 16

deenab Registered since 01st May 2012
Sun 20-May-12 11:08 PM

I'm glad you mentioned the fact that you are storing copies off site. I think that is just hugely important.

First, as a number of people have mentioned, different media have different life and data can develop silent corruption. Copying the data with some regularity can help. Tape media has the longest life but all media has to be stored properly -- not in light, not in excessive head, humidity or cold. That means no basements and attics, generally, unless they are temperature controlled.

First, let me state that I work in the data storage industry and I've seen what real loss is like. And, it can be heart breaking and business destroying.

I make three to five copies of all my files (5 of images and 3 of working files like the LR catalog). And I do my copies in series. First, I put a copy on a standalone archive drive from my CF card.

Then, I import a second copy of all my images to a Lightroom images folder on a local RAID 5 setup inside my desktop Mac (the RAID system obviously adds additional redundancy) . I have had problems where LR caught data errors and I've gone back and recopied files from the CF card because I don't delete the files off the CF card until I have at least the two copies -- on the external hard disk and on the internal RAID.

Then, because I'm paranoid, I make three other copies. One is on a separate external disk using Time Machine backups of my internal RAID. This gets me copies of my LR Catalog, my Lightroom image files, presents, etc from my internal RAID.

I also use Carbon Copy (free donation ware) to make copies of my internal raid AND my external archive drive to two (actually four) separate external disks and I rotate those disks off site -- keeping one live one at home and one at my office/work.

This way, I have my working files on my internal RAID and my archive of all images at home. I have backups at home for any immediate issues through Time Machine. I also have offsite copies I rotate of both my internal RAID and my external archive drive off site in case my house burns down or I am robbed or I experience a power surge that damages my drives (I've had it happen).

I should use tape and probably will start doing that at some point when the disk copies become untenable. I stopped burning DVDs a few years ago because it just became unmanageable for me.

smb_ohio

Canton, US
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#33. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 27

smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006
Mon 21-May-12 05:19 PM

I stopped using my Drobo after having a serious scare with a bad drive being reported, and the system reporting that all my data was lost for several days until it finally rebuilt itself... And it turned out the drive wasn't bad in the first place even though the Drobo still refused to recognize it. Now I'm using a HD docking station -- very fast, reliable, and I can make multiple backups of my image files without worrying about RAID or proprietary file systems like the Drobo. And I can easily store redundant backups offsite for even more security.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5757 posts

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#34. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 32

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Wed 23-May-12 11:06 PM

>I'm glad you mentioned the fact that you are storing copies
>off site. I think that is just hugely important.

Indeed. They are not high probability events, but all sorts of things can make on-site backups moot:

- Fire
- Buglary or vandalism (notably if the copies you keep are visible
- Tornado, hurricane or flood

But the more common problem I see is people who depend entirely on one backup media and/or fail to verify. I've seen people who thought they have 12 backup copies find out that none of them are any good, that they weren't working right for some reason. My best example was from a business where a manager (back in early 80's) had tape backups made every day, which then went off site to iron mountain. He laid the cartridges, waiting for pickup, on top of a huge warehouse traansformer, which invariably scrambled enough of the data to make them unreadable. It was only found in a routine audit that required they test a restore -- fortunately no actual failure required a restrore, but a real failure with then NO backups would have been a massive loss.

Sounds funny (but put it in context, this was before most people had personal computers or any experience with media). But even today I bet 95% of the people who make multiple backup copies only test a full restore if they actually lose their data. What if your backup was skipping or corrupting every 1000th file -- would you even notice?


Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

mkaplan

Kitchener, CA
94 posts

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#35. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 25

mkaplan Gold Member Nikonian since 04th Apr 2012
Thu 24-May-12 09:00 AM

>RAID is a bad solution. Especially hardware RAID.
>
>Also, I would suggest having a separate physical drive for OS
>and a separate drive for your data (documents, photos, etc).

I have no idea why you would say RAID is a bad solution.
There are reasons for everything. RAID1 mirror is in case of a single hard drive failure which is actually the most possible event to happen. Hard drives fail. Your hard drive will fail. The only thing is when it will fail.

RAID 5 is a great backup solution for that one reason only. Also it does
help speed up your reads off the hard drives.

That will not help you though in case of things like a virus. For that you need a another form of backup which I use Acronis True Image and make a full HD backup of my O/S partition and then whenever I make a large change I make an incremental image so I have the old backups and add the new changes in case something actually went awry between the 2. I do not do that for my photos. Like I had said above, the photos are written to a back up RAID5 drive and then my RAW files to DVD for off site storage. I also write my DVD's and have verify on because you never know when it might write a DVD, not report errors but when you go to restore you find there was a problem.

As for O/S on a different set of drives, I don't find this necessary for a home user but certainly for a business. I keep my cache on a seperate SSD drive though and my Photoshop cache is there as well.

Michael Kaplan
http://www.pbase.com/mkaplan

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ddpg

College Station, US
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#36. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

ddpg Registered since 06th Jul 2010
Thu 24-May-12 10:25 AM

My LR catalog and images are stored on a RAID-6 array. Each week I do a full backup to a LTO-5 drive. I usually make two copies. I leave one set of tapes at home and store another set off-site. Sure the drive was expensive (about $1500), but the tapes are about $40 and hold 1.5TB. It's not a solution for everybody, but I asked myself how much my picture collection was worth to me and that made the decision to invest in a LTO-5 drive eaiser.

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kartane

AU
163 posts

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#37. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 24

kartane Registered since 23rd Apr 2012
Thu 24-May-12 02:07 PM

Photos per card is a minimum guesstimate. Nikon uses uncompressed NEF size and maximum jpg size in calculating space left on a card. I nearly had a heart attack first time my D800 said only 399 raw on my 32GB SD card. But in practice you will get over 600 images.

The manual quotes 12bit compressed is 29MB compared to 41.2MB for 14bit lossless compressed. So 250 Raw per 8GB is possible.

>8GB = 250 Raw? Hrmm.. You are not talking about D800, are
>you? I got mine yesterday and after some brief consideration
>got a very expensive 32 GB CF card - I can fit only 400 Raw on
>that card! Ouch..

Colin

"We don’t see things as they are, we see things as we are" - Anaïs Nin

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PhotoSpydie

Buckeye, US
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#38. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

PhotoSpydie Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for her support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 17th Jul 2011
Sun 27-May-12 01:37 AM

I use Aperture and simply vault all of my libraries to an external drive. I am fortunate to have a Thunderbolt port and a 2T external drive (Lacie). When I complete any major downloads or edits I simply select an option to vault the library.

This means, of course, that you have to be using a Mac.

Carol
photospydie.com

PhotoSpydie

Buckeye, US
226 posts

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#39. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

PhotoSpydie Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for her support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 17th Jul 2011
Sun 27-May-12 01:37 AM

I use Aperture and simply vault all of my libraries to an external drive. I am fortunate to have a Thunderbolt port and a 2T external drive (Lacie). When I complete any major downloads or edits I simply select an option to vault the library.

This means, of course, that you have to be using a Mac.

Carol
photospydie.com

nrothschild

US
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#40. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 35

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 27-May-12 09:54 AM | edited Sun 27-May-12 09:56 AM by nrothschild

>> I have no idea why you would say RAID is a bad solution.

I didn't say that, but I would agree with that to the extent that losing Raid arrays is a very common occurrence.

The problem with Raid is that people tend to think about it as "fail safe" and it is not. Nothing is. The chance of having a "soft" failure is fairly high, and attempts to rebuild legitimate simple hard drive failures are often botched, and the internet is full of people desperately looking for help rebuilding their failed Raid arrays that contain their only copy of the data.

Raid 1 is most likely statistically "safer" than the various striping formats since in principle the remaining drive should work as a stand-alone JBOD drive but still people botch them up or the controller hoses the data. Plus all the various OS related failures.

There is no good solution that involves a single storage location because that single storage pool always has various possible single points of failure.

The big problem with Raid is that anyone that needs to ask the question doesn't have enough technical expertise to properly manage it. That is not meant to demean anyone, but it just implies that few people really have the technical expertise to manage it and that alone accounts for much of the high Raid array failure rates. And that includes me. I understand a lot of the Raid issues but I am not a full time IT hardware tech working with Raid systems and they are the among the few that truly understand that beast.

I keep at least 4 copies of my data, all on various hard drive storage setups, including a 4 bay Sans-digital JBOD setup, a Drobo S, and raw drives formatted in my native OS (Windows NTFS). I routinely diff my backups to check for bit rot or failed drives so I'm not too worried about them seizing up from disuse.

I've had no problems with the two Drobos I've used for over 4 years now. But having followed Drobo's forums for all those years, Steve's experience is very believable. I may just be lucky and I have not actually had a drive fail solid yet even though I use cheap WD GP drives. I just like it for one of my several storage formats and at the moment it doesn't even hold my primary working copies (but that may change soon, for various reasons).

I don't think any storage solution is perfect, including my own scheme. I don't use optical drives because I know I would never take the time to test and periodically clone all the accumulated disks I would have, even at 25GB per BR disk. I've been burned with old CD's that didn't read so I don't trust them. I do think they are a viable solution for one of many redundant copies. I just find hard drives easy and efficient to manage, and that includes periodically bit testing them.



_________________________________
Neil


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David D Busch

US
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#41. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

David D Busch Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Nov 2011
Sun 27-May-12 11:57 PM

Each of the four internal SATA hard drives in my computer is installed in a slide-out mobile rack, and has two identical counterparts of the same brand and capacity. That is, I have three “copies” of each of my hard drives. Until the flooding in Thailand, drives were incredibly cheap (I paid $100 each for the last three 3TB drives I purchased.) My trio of matching drives are labeled Primary, Backup 1 and Backup 2. Primary goes in my main PC. Backup 1 or 2 goes in an identical backup computer I can use if my main PC’s motherboard explodes (it’s happened only once.) The other Backup (1 or 2) is stored off-site.

At intervals (you choose how often; it can be weekly, monthly, or whatever), I pop Primary and either Backup 1 or Backup 2 into one of my Aluratek duplicators, and make a copy. The newest copy is stored off-site, the oldest copy goes in my backup computer. So I always have my current hard drive, a recent full backup, and a slightly less recent full backup available. I happen to have two of the Aluratek duplicators. That way, I have a backup for my backup device, plus I can duplicate two different drives at once. (I have four internal drives in my computer; typically, I just shut down the computer overnight, duplicate two of its drives in the Alurateks one night and the other two the following night.)

The Aluratek duplicators are stand-alone devices; they don’t need to be connected to your computers (I’ve installed mine on the other side of my office), but they are furnished with a USB cable so, if you want, you can pop in two SATA drives and access them from your computer. I do this when I need to fetch an old file. Since my duplicates are mirror images of my hard drives, rather than encrypted backup files, I can retrieve individual files by drilling down through the appropriate folders.

CONTEMPORANEOUS BACKUP

Of course, you might be at risk of losing some files between whole-drive backups. I’m not. The files I work with each day are stored on a pair of mirrored 64GB USB flash drives. I save my working files to one of the flash drives, and a synchronizing program called AllWay Sync checks that drive every few minutes and copies any changed files to the second 64GB flash drive. My most recent backup of working files is never more than a few minutes old, and it’s stored on non-volatile memory. You could do something similar with a solid state SATA drive (SSD), but thumb drives are a lot cheaper. Of course, I have my computer connected to an UPS, so I have at least 15 minutes to finish my work and save my files if power goes out. I’m seriously considering a whole-house generator, but that particular over-kill must wait for another day.

In a minor hardware emergency, I can remove my hard drives, slide them into the backup computer behind me, and continue working. In a major emergency, I can snatch the flash drives from their hub, run for my life, and know I can restore just about all my work from the flash drives and my most recent backup, even if my office burns to the ground.

BUT WAIT, THERE’S MORE!

I have two 6TB Drobo RAID-like backup hard drives that I formerly used as my primary backup before I went to the Aluratek system. Those drives still chug away, doing daily backups of my internal hard drives using TrueImage Home, which also mirrors my 64GB flash drives onto the Drobos. I liked my Data Robots, but, after all, they reside in my office and aren’t protected from theft, flood, or fire. They make a good tertiary backup.

I don't use CDs, DVDs, or Blu-Ray discs. I shoot too much in an average week for any type of optical drive, especially now with my D800. I don't use online backup for obvious reasons.

"I make terrible mistakes, so you don't have to!"

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liamtoh1ps

US
312 posts

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#42. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

liamtoh1ps Registered since 17th Apr 2012
Mon 28-May-12 03:25 AM

Please see this link for my process to backup D800 files.

Robman3

West of Santa Monica, US
1842 posts

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#43. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010
Mon 28-May-12 05:44 AM | edited Mon 28-May-12 05:57 AM by Robman3

Everything goes into Transfer, eSATA primary off computer holds main files, second USB (both 7200 RPM) for redundancy, which on occasion has bailed me out when I've neglected proper RAW file set up, or inadvertently changed to basic JPG while fumbling the camera in and out of the bag as we traversed 4WD sand trails in Eureka Valley.

I bought an additional G-Drive two weeks ago and now run the cache onto that, attached into an eSATA PCIe slot on the laptop which can access up to 10 raid, if we get that ambitious from the FSB.

The G is mainly where transcoded CineForm video files (I frames only) are stored for edits in Production Premium, which are several times times as large as the .MOV files (h.264 IBP) which reside on the first eSATA and backup drive along with RAW from each shoot (master).

Workflows vary to be sure, but around 8TB's total, 5 drives.

I like Perrone's use of BluRay, may look into that as well as I'll be going full Quadro Nvidia in a few weeks, with the CS6 upgrade from CS5.5.

Or perhaps David's exacting and brilliant method.

My recording engineer goes off site, swapping out TB's worth of sessions (Pyramix) and has them stored somewhere in Burbank, then retrieves files when we go back to a session from the past, so yes, there are ways.

Rob







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smb_ohio

Canton, US
1290 posts

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#44. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 41

smb_ohio Registered since 18th Mar 2006
Mon 28-May-12 07:15 AM

What I do is not unlike your method, except I use an external HDD docking station instead of having slide-out bays in my system unit. Instead of using a drive duplicator, I just make multiple backup hard drives to store. Being USB 3.0, it's plenty fast.

Steve

A Nikonian in northeastern Ohio

http://stephen-bishop.com

Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5757 posts

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#45. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 40

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Mon 28-May-12 08:19 PM | edited Mon 28-May-12 08:21 PM by Ferguson

>>> I have no idea why you would say RAID is a bad
>solution.
>
>I didn't say that, but I would agree with that to the extent
>that losing Raid arrays is a very common occurrence.

Your longer answer makes a lot more sense, thank you.

>The big problem with Raid is that anyone that needs to ask the
>question doesn't have enough technical expertise to properly
>manage it. That is not meant to demean anyone, but it just
>implies that few people really have the technical expertise to
>manage it and that alone accounts for much of the high Raid
>array failure rates. And that includes me. I understand a
>lot of the Raid issues but I am not a full time IT hardware
>tech working with Raid systems and they are the among the few
>that truly understand that beast.

Your comment is somewhat true, but I think still leads people to the wrong conclusion. That argument could almost be made about any complex technology - heck, if I had followed that approach I would never have learned to photograph on film.

As you put it ("I keep at least 4 copies..."), this is all about redundancy and improving the odds. No one should assume any single technique is failsafe, raid among them.

But as costs descend, raid solutions improve the odds, and so long as one doesn't equate that with "safe", I think people should look toward raid solutions as a good thing to have.

Linwood

PS. Other than raid 0 (zero). For those who do not know, Raid-0 is an oxymoron, as it is not "redundant" at all, but a performance enhancer that makes it MORE likely you will loose data not less. As opposed to Raid 1+0 (or 0+1 or 10; all basically the same thing) which is redundant.

PPS. And yes, I am one of those people who have managed storage systems for a living (and photography for fun) dating from the days when someone who said "raid" around a computer room would likely have been trying to kill insects.

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

nrothschild

US
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#46. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 45

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Mon 28-May-12 09:54 PM

Hi Linwood,

>> Your comment is somewhat true, but I think still leads people to the wrong conclusion. That argument could almost be made about any complex technology

I could have stated that better. What I meant to say is that the typical consumer, even a consumer that considers himself "computer savy", probably has a relatively high chance of blowing up a Raid array, certainly much higher than Pros managing enterprise level storage systems.

Those Pros have complex redundancy schemes (and the bucks to fund it) but every now and then there is a highly visible failure that results in loss of data (in particular consumer cloud data loss gets the big press).

The statistic I would love to see is the following: What percentage of consumer raid arrays have successfully survived a disk failure, verses what percentage of consumer raid arrays were lost (eliminating catastrophic multi-disk failure scenarios that would be impossible to survive).

In other words, statistically speaking, are consumer striped raid arrays actually safer than JBOD hard drives? I think it could go either way, just reading all the horror stories on various raid support forums while I was researching various options over time.

Just this morning I put an old but freshly formatted drive in my SansDigital TR4-UTBPN box (eSata/USB3 Raid/JBOD via a Rocket Raid 622 card). I run it JBOD to avoid raid problems and I'm too cheap to buy enterprise grade drives.

When I fired the server up, none of the JBOD drives showed up. And I was annoyed because it happened to me about a year ago or less but I couldn't remember why it did that .

The HighPoint Raid controller software was sort of telling me I had a failed raid array but it was quite unclear and what it told me was not fully consistent with the capacities and count of the installed drives (it was quite confused).

Anyway, the problem was that even though that older drive worked fine and formatted properly in a BlacX dock, it "took down" that storage pool because I had previously used it in a Linux MDADM Raid5 array and the Raid controller saw some "secret marks" on the drive that Windows format doesn't erase. It thought it had a hosed raid array.

Fortunately the 3 other drive's volumes (plus that freshly formatted drive) were fine. But I can only imagine what unsophisticated users would go through and what they might do to trash their volumes in the same circumstances.

I solved the problem by writing zeroes to the first million sectors via WD'ws diagnostic tool. The first time that happened I think I only had to format the drive before popping it into the SansDigital box.

Drobos have a similar problem, but more lethal. If, in a shut down Drobo, you cold swap a drive, or add an additional drive that was previously in a Drobo array, then fire it up the Drobo *may* see that new drive as the "correct" array and obviously there aren't enough drives. It is apparently a statistical roll of the dice. So it gives a "too many drives failed" error message and that is the end of the array. I have seen that reported more than once on the Drobo forums and in each case all the data was lost and the volumes were decalred (by Drobo tech support) as unrecoverable.

Drobo's official FAQ on the subject says you can cold swap a drive (while the Drobo is down) or hot swap it, purely a user choice. Personally I would never cold swap a drive in a Drobo but you'd have to follow that forum for a few years to know that. Why Drobo, Inc. ignores that possibility in their support faq is another big question.

Just a couple of specific examples, using two different products, why I never feel safe with less than 4 copies of my data, and I try not to use the same technology on multiple copies if it is more complex than simple JBOD setups.

I'm extremely anal about proper shutdowns and safe removals (I'm primarily a Win XP and Win7 user). I run my Win7 server headless, via VNC. I do keep a monitor, mouse and keyboard attached but the monitor is usually shut down and the machine is in an inconvenient place.

I have a very occasional but chronic problem where the machine will not fully shut down, and when I fire up the monitor it is black. VNC closes as soon as the shutdown is initiated so I can't get back in to investigate. And worst of all, I can still access the drives via network sharing so I know the machine is fully alive. I'm forced to do the dirty deed.

About a month ago I ran into the same problem, more or less, but this time firing it up after being out of town. The monitor was black and VNC would not connect. So I was forced to slam it down.

When I fired it back up my 2TB primary working volume of my 2004-2010 image archive was gone. Fortunately I have 3 other copies. Otherwise I would have been using one of those recovery tools and I've used one a few times and know they never recover very cleanly. Fortunately that data is rarely updated and never added to so my backups are all I need.

One of the problems with a failed startup like that is that I have several automated scheduled backup routines in place. When I am out of town and the machine is shut down, the first startup launches all the missed backups so if anything goes wrong there is a huge amount of disk writing going on. Or think about what might happen if a drive letter somehow changes and the wrong drive is "synced", losing a volume.
Curiously, nothing was being written to or read from the failed volume although the backup app may have been comparing file structures on that volume at the time it was slammed down. That will always be a mystery.
There was a little user error there. Although the monitor was black (a serious Win problem for which I have never found an answer or even similar reports on the net), just after slamming it down I realized that the network hub attached to that machine was shut down and that was why I could not VNC into the machine. (assuming VNC would have worked because something was very funky there). I assumed it was the same old same old, I had just arrived back in town and I didn't need all this trouble at that moment.

Just to say there is SO much that can go wrong and even careful consumers make mistakes.





_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

prs1894

Henryville, US
25 posts

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#47. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 8

prs1894 Registered since 11th May 2012
Mon 28-May-12 10:17 PM

Currently i'm backing up to external hard drives that are on-line 24x7 for a total of 4TB. And, then I back up my backups to a remote hard drive, so that if my computer is hit by lighting or whatever, I can restore. Now, you make me think a little bit more seriously about my Disaster Recovery Backup technique. And, that I may need to come up with a more viable technique than I have, maybe BluRay and maybe what??? I don't think tape is viable from a fiscal point of view or at least not with my budget! Thanks for you input.

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

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#48. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 43

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Tue 29-May-12 02:23 AM

I am not a promso data is not critical, but my life since 1997 is in my computer,mso i am serious about data integrity for my personal data and my businesss data.

My desktop has several drives including a 256 gb SSD for os and several drives for data. Including - 500 gb disk half full.

My desktop and my business laptop are wired into a gigabit switch that's connected to a net gear duo with 2 mirrored 1.5 tb drives.

I use quick shadow to copy new data to the nas in near real time. So my data is backed up immediately.

Every month I copy the nas data to a 1.5 tb drive that I store in my fire proof safe.

So I have all data in three places in real time, and can lose no more than one month of data.

It's an acceptable risk, and better backup than most people have. Most meaning general public, not you guys.

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mikesrc

OKLAHOMA CITY, US
299 posts

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#49. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 48

mikesrc Registered since 03rd May 2009
Wed 30-May-12 05:42 PM

I print the pictures.

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Ferguson

Cape Coral, US
5757 posts

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#50. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 49

Ferguson Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for the generous sharing of his high level expertise in the spirit of Nikonians Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004
Wed 30-May-12 10:45 PM

>I print the pictures.



Ah, but on the paper do you use Really Artful Insoluable Dyes (RAID) to ensure that the paper lasts, or Just Boxes of Dye (JBOD)?


Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

mikesrc

OKLAHOMA CITY, US
299 posts

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#51. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 50

mikesrc Registered since 03rd May 2009
Thu 31-May-12 09:11 AM

>>I print the pictures.
>
>
>
>Ah, but on the paper do you use Really Artful Insoluable Dyes
>(RAID) to ensure that the paper lasts, or Just Boxes of Dye
>(JBOD)?
>
>
>Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

Now that's funny.

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newbird

Neuville, near Quebec City, CA
2038 posts

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#52. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 0

newbird Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 25th Apr 2006
Thu 31-May-12 03:49 PM

I use PhotoMechanics to ingest my photos simultaneously on two external twin hard disk drives (3 tb each). I rename my files during ingest with Place-YYYY-MM-DD.

I always edit the files (with NX2) from the same drive. I edit about 5% of my photos but keep all those that have potential for later use (about 80% of all photos taken). Then I synchronize regularly my two disks using GoodSync.

I keep jpg files on the same two drives in different folders and on my Zenfolio web site (on public and private galleries).

I find this solution works very well and is safe. I once lost a HDD which crashed. I lost almost nothing (only a few NEF edited photos, no jpg file).

Total cost is less than the average price of a lens.

Yvan
Quebec Fine-Art Landscape Photographer
http://yvanbedardphotonature.com

wesmannmsu

US
302 posts

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#53. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 7

wesmannmsu Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Mar 2011
Fri 01-Jun-12 04:49 PM

I love my Drobo, 15 TB of storage! Love it!


normally i keep the last year on my laptop (the whole laptop is backed up to the Drobo, nightly) and move everything older than that to the Drobo using lightroom,

Its easy enough to move files back and forth using Lightroom.

But with the D800e, i have only been keeping the last 3 months on the laptop.

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wesmannmsu

US
302 posts

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#54. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 46

wesmannmsu Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Mar 2011
Fri 01-Jun-12 04:53 PM

WOW, i have never had issues, fingers crossed!

I just recently update my (5) 2 TB drives to 3 TB drives. Just hot swapped one, waited for the rebuild then moved to the next. All 5 swapped out like champs. And I mean Hot, my kids where watching a movie that was streaming from the drobo at the time, not a glitch.

I have the Drobe FS

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nrothschild

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#55. "RE: How do you back up your D800 files" | In response to Reply # 54

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Fri 01-Jun-12 05:23 PM | edited Fri 01-Jun-12 06:01 PM by nrothschild

>> WOW, i have never had issues, fingers crossed!

Cold swap a couple of those old 2TB drives back in and let us know what happens

But seriously, I hope you back it up. Mine has been flawless too, but we are just on the right side of the statistics. So far.




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Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

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