Even though we ARE Nikon lovers,we are NOT affiliated with Nikon Corp. in any way.

English German French

Sign up Login
Home Forums Articles Galleries Recent Photos Contest Help Search News Workshops Shop Upgrade Membership Recommended
members
All members Wiki Contests Vouchers Apps Newsletter THE NIKONIAN™ Magazines Podcasts Fundraising

D800 & D700 - same shot request

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author
nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Mon 09-Apr-12 06:29 PM

Been thinking about this. Most of the enthusiastic D800 people point out the increased resolution of the D800 as the differentiator with the D700. Makes sense. Seen lots of comparison about it. But we've also been hearing that it is better at dynamic range. I've seen pictures that say, "Marvel at this dynamic range!" but those are scalars. Meaning they exist independently of comparisons.

So, what I'm curious to see -- if anyone out there has a D700 and D800 handy -- is a comparison shot. Take the same picture of the same thing in the same manner with the D700 and D800, process it the same way, and resize to the same output size, and post them. In this case I'm pretty unconcerned with noise so the binning issue is not what's interesting to me. I'm interested in seeing if I personally can *see* the dynamic range difference without it being pointed out to me.

Many thanks to whomever wishes to help out on this. Seeing numbers in Bill's chart or DXO really doesn't mean anything to me in isolation. I want to see if I can actually *see* a difference.

nathantw

US
184 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#1. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 0

nathantw Registered since 16th Jan 2008
Mon 09-Apr-12 04:40 PM | edited Mon 09-Apr-12 04:53 PM by nathantw

Thanks for asking this. I've been curious myself. This past weekend I shot some little league baseball shots with a Nikkor 400mm f/5.6 AIs with the D700 from behind the plate (and through a fence). When the pitcher was on the mound I was able to see the texture of the cloth of his uniform and the pitcher's eyelashes on his face. I'm sure I would have been able to see the natural patterns that surround the pupils of the eyes with the D800 because I was almost able to see that with the D700. When he was in the outfield I shot from the same location and again I zoomed in all the way to the eyes of the outfielder. He was further, obviously, but I was still able to see his eyes were brown. Of course it was a bit blurry since it was probably 400x zoom. I'm sure the D800 would have had a sharper image.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.


Also http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathantw/

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#2. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 1

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Tue 10-Apr-12 02:04 AM

I have some unprocessed comparison shots on my website.

WWW dot Osthus dot us

A ways down the file list you will see Dsc0108.jpg, dsc0108.nef...

Further down you will see dsc 0329, et.

The 100 series is d800, the 329 series is d700.

The key to finding finding photo pairs is to match 108 up with 329 and follow that pattern down each list.

Does that make sense. These are unprocessed straight out of the camera.

I would love to hear your feedback on what you see.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

infamily

Petaluma, US
227 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#3. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 2

infamily Silver Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 10th Sep 2009
Tue 10-Apr-12 06:52 PM

Hi John,
To me it seems the d800 images were underexposed a bit compared to d700. I actulally prefer d700 images if the settings were identical.

Sandeep B
So much to learn, so little time.

visit
my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#4. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 2

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Tue 10-Apr-12 10:47 PM

Thanks for the comparisons. They are shot similarly (different exposure) but not exact. Even so this is pretty useful. I appreciate the time and your willingness to share. I feel like I'm seeing just a little more tone in the D800 pics but it could also be the exposure difference. Interesting...

AreBee

Inverness, UK
531 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#5. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 0

AreBee Registered since 27th Apr 2008
Tue 10-Apr-12 05:18 AM

Neil,

>I want to see if I can actually *see* a difference.<

In order to see a difference, and assuming both cameras were exposed identically, wouldn't the D700 image have to exhibit blown highlights or crushed blacks (otherwise the dynamic range of the scene would fit within the upper- and lower-bound limit capable of being captured by both cameras)?

Rob
www.robbuckle.co.uk

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#6. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 5

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Tue 10-Apr-12 10:40 AM

Presumably. But it could also be evident in tonality in the transitions from lightest to darkest. With more transition steps available in a sensor with more range the smoothness could theoretically be a visible differentiator.

I think of the D300 and D700. It was widely said that the D700 was 1 stop to 1.5 stops better. I shot a D300 for nearly 2 years and at this point I've shot a D700 for nearly 2 years. Except at high ISO, which I try to avoid, I don't see much of a real world image difference between the two at low ISO. Especially when you use good exposure techniques.

AreBee

Inverness, UK
531 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#7. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 6

AreBee Registered since 27th Apr 2008
Tue 10-Apr-12 05:05 PM

Neil,

>...it could also be evident in tonality in the transitions from lightest to darkest. With more transition steps available in a sensor with more range the smoothness could theoretically be a visible differentiator.<

I could well be mistaken, but isn't tonality described by the number of bits, as opposed to the dynamic range EV value? In other words, a 14 bit file provides 2^14 possible shades whereas a 12 bit file 'only' provides 2^12 possible shades.

>I think of the D300 and D700. It was widely said that the D700 was 1 stop to 1.5 stops better. I shot a D300 for nearly 2 years and at this point I've shot a D700 for nearly 2 years. Except at high ISO, which I try to avoid, I don't see much of a real world image difference between the two at low ISO.<

Have you seen Bill's chart of dynamic range vs ISO for the D300 vs the D700? At low ISO the chart confirms exactly what you note above.

Rob
www.robbuckle.co.uk

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#8. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 7

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Wed 11-Apr-12 03:06 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I recall not paying any attention to the settings, which is pretty sloppy testing. Not even really a test. Ideally the shots would have been done on tripod with mirror up, same settings.

In this case all I got out of it was a feeling that there was more detail in the distant flag with the d800. Shots of my daughter I am not seeing much difference. In these particular circumstances.

However I did get a chance to shoot some macro shots last weekend and flower shots close and far at the botanical garden. I saw detail and color that were really beautiful.

In any case the d700 was and is a super nice camera. But I have zero regrets.

best regards

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
4965 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#9. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 6

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 12:37 PM

It's kind of interesting that they used a D300 in the German forum. I realize there is an exposure difference, but holy mother of god , WHAT A DIFFERENCE in high ISO capability we have come from, what was a very good camera just a very short time ago (the D300).

That is also where the D800 beats the D3X, is it's phenomenal capability at higher ISOs. D800 is quite a remarkable camera I continue to think! For this reason good luck actually acquiring one

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#10. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 0

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Wed 11-Apr-12 09:10 AM | edited Wed 11-Apr-12 09:11 AM by nrothschild

Hi Neil,

>> I've seen pictures that say, "Marvel at this dynamic range!"

>> I'm interested in seeing if I personally can *see* the dynamic range difference without it being pointed out to me.

>> In this case I'm pretty unconcerned with noise so the binning issue is not what's interesting to me.

I see some potential contradictions in all the above . In particular, if you want to see the differences in DR you must be totally focused on the noise!

From Bill's site:

"My definition of Photographic Dynamic Range is a low endpoint with an SNR of 20 when adjusted for the appropriate Circle Of Confusion (COC) for the sensor."color=red>

"Dynamic Range", as computed by Bill, and everyone else in a very roughly similar manner, is not about "blown highlights and crushed blacks", as was suggested in a reply here, but all about noise and how noise affects the blackest blacks. It is clear in Bill's one sentence definition. It might be better described as "muddy blacks" rather than "crushed blacks".

In order to answer your question I suspect some further discussion regarding the definition of Dynamic Range might be in order.

I also suspect, in a general sense, many or possibly most people do not fully understand the definition and testing methodology behind the Dynamic Range numbers and because of that they may be marveling at the wrong thing .

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#11. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 10

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Wed 11-Apr-12 10:54 AM

I wouldn't surprise me if people are marveling at the wrong things.

Ultimately what I'm wanting is to see if I can see a difference between the two cameras on the same scene with the same settings/exposure and sized to the same output (web oriented).

I pointed out the noise because I didn't want pictures highlighting high ISO stuff. I'm more interested in ISO 200 where noise is really not a factor.

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#12. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 11

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Wed 11-Apr-12 11:13 AM | edited Wed 11-Apr-12 11:15 AM by nrothschild

My guess is that at web output sizes you'd be hard pressed to see a true difference.

As I understand things, noise is a factor, even at ISO 200, and the differences in dynamic range, per the technical definitions, *will* be in the noise in the deepest shadow areas.

Edit: but that noise will likely not be visible in web presentations and that is the irony of trying to convey whatever benefits actually accrue from tripling our file size.

But I agree with you- I too would like to see comparative images that clearly illustrate the benefits of 36 mpx. I don't think it makes much sense to be posting images in isolation to try to highlight what is so great about this camera.

I'm also not convinced that the benefits can be conveyed in a web forum presentation and with the image size restrictions that come with that. But maybe I'm throwing down a gauntlet too by suggesting that

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#13. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 12

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Wed 11-Apr-12 11:30 AM

LOL, I know it's a challenge to do this! Maybe that's why I'm asking. I think most people only do web output so it's a good discussion point.

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#14. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 13

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Wed 11-Apr-12 09:47 PM

I don't understand the desire to make both images the same size for a good comparison.

Isn't that like taking a 14 inch pie and a 9 inch pie (made by the same chef) and inisting on having the slices the same exact size before deciding which is better?

Isn't the image size one of the inherent positives with the D800?

Isn't digital photography an arena where size does matter?

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#15. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 14

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Thu 12-Apr-12 01:26 AM | edited Thu 12-Apr-12 01:27 AM by nwcs

Lol, it's certainly one way to look at it. But I think back to after the announcement when people said the only fair comparison (regarding noise) with the D700 is to resize a D800 to be the same as the other. So my thought process is similar. I guess I can phrase it this way: other than size can I see a difference in IQ at the output sizes I use, which are well beneath native sizes.

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#16. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 15

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Thu 12-Apr-12 01:43 AM | edited Thu 12-Apr-12 01:47 AM by johno

Thank you for your thoughts.

Agreed re the subjective nature of this passion we photographers share.

There was an amazing energy to put this camera in its place pre-launch. Such Lamentations! But now it's here and the objections have shifted to "what's the difference at 8x10?" Let's say none and call it a day. On to the shoot!

So once the pie is the same size so there is no pixel-envy, there is another factor with this camera.

The detail it captures is really really good. The other other factor:

I just tried out my new sennheiser wireless bodypack mic setup on my daughter, who is singing in my sister's civil union Saturday. I have a ways to go learning to shoot DSLR video and balancing audio between instruments and singer. But the video I shot of Ava practicing is priceless to her father.

I have two point & shoot "hd" cameras/video units. The video I shot with the D800 is light years better than that, and also better than my 10-year-old top of the prosumer line 3ccd Sony video camera. And I'm just getting started.

This D800 is a very special camera.

I love it.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#17. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 16

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Thu 12-Apr-12 10:06 AM

And don't forget the 100% viewfinder (for me THE deciding factor) and the improved autofocus module(haven't tried it out yet as I only got my D800 yesterday).

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

piniongear

Houston Texas, US
466 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#18. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 17

piniongear Registered since 29th Jul 2006
Thu 12-Apr-12 11:43 AM


I too am still waiting for someone to show me 2 photographs sitting side by side for comparison, with the point being to show me that the D800 is capable of taking a better quality photo than one taken with the D700, in the size parameters that I use which is 8 X 10 inches.

I have not seen one shred of evidence yet to confirm this...... so while I suspected this may be the case in the beginning, I now believe that all you are getting with the D800 is video (which I do not care to have) and many more pixels.
Many more pixels do not make much difference for 8 X 10 prints which is what I do most.

Don't give me blown up enlargements of someone's eyebrows and count the blood veins of their eyes.

Just give me a photo of someone's face.
I do faces, not eyeballs and eyelashes.

And all this for only $3000? Wow!
Perry

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#19. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 18

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Thu 12-Apr-12 12:38 PM

No faces, but Holger, a moderator of the German forums has posted some comparison images that can be downloaded as either JPG or NEF:

https://www.nikonians.org/resources/reviews/d800-vergleichsbilder

for those who do not understand German this link will lead you to the automatically translated page by Google(should be understandable though):
http://bit.ly/Ipp4cm

Maybe this helps

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

adcam

Portland, US
598 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#20. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 19

adcam Gold Member Nikonian since 31st Dec 2007
Thu 12-Apr-12 03:20 PM

He is comparing the D300 to the D800 which in my opinion there is no comparison.

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#21. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 20

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Thu 12-Apr-12 03:27 PM

>He is comparing the D300 to the D800 which in my opinion
>there is no comparison.

of course, you are correct! Sorry about that.

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

DVDMike

Metro Atlanta, US
2225 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#22. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 19

DVDMike Registered since 25th Mar 2003
Thu 12-Apr-12 04:20 PM


All I have to say is WOW! I have a D300 and don't shoot much at 3200. But I compared it to the RAW D800 @ 6400ISO. I'd really like to see how it shakes out against the D3, which I also use. I tried to adjust for exposure differences and the D800 still blows me away at 6400, adjusting them so that they are the same visible size on screen. The D800 is a tad softer but easy to sharpen up.

Jimi

South Lake Tahoe, US
349 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#23. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 18

Jimi Team Member Nikonian since 09th Nov 2006
Fri 13-Apr-12 01:28 PM

You're right. At 8x10 you can save yourself $3000. The improvements to the D800 are awesome but not for everyone. If a camera isn't going solve a problem, improve your results, or make you a ton more money then there is no point in forking over even $1000.

But Nikonians love Nikons and having the latest and best is...

On another point, all the techno stuff blows my mind. I want to see 'real world' comparisons as the OP suggested.

I made some test images with my D700 (real world outdoor images) before I sold it. When I get my D800 and D800E I will be doing more 'real world' images (same settings, same subject, same lighting as close as I can) and I will make side by side prints for comparison of all three. I will post the results on my blog...hopefully in a couple of weeks.

All the images posted and looked at on a monitor are almost useless. My little lumix looks good on screen. I want to see image quality, detail, and dynamic range in prints in real world settings not on a megapixel, ppi or CoC basis.

Buying a D800 to post images to the web is nuts, buying a D800 because it's cool is mandatory.

Jim Stamates
Nikonians Academy Workshop Instructor

https://www.nikoniansacademy.com
http://stamates.com/blog
http://www.stamates.com

piniongear

Houston Texas, US
466 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#24. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 23

piniongear Registered since 29th Jul 2006
Fri 13-Apr-12 01:49 PM

Jim,
Your reply is just what I was hoping to see and I do look forward to your comparisons to be posted in the future.

I want to thank you for a straight forward reply regarding the increase in quality?.... and ....'does it make any difference?'
Also is it worth it to move up?
I think not, for me. I too love Nikon but I have to draw the line here over spending $3000 just to get the latest model.
Perry

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
4965 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#25. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 23

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 12:29 PM

The web is arbitrarily limited right now. We should expect that to change, it needs to get faster, bigger pipes, and cheaper and it needs to do so sooner rather than later given the current crop of 24mp and 36mp cameras.

For some reason "everyone accepts" today's current limits as if they were some kind of immovable object, but they aren't.

For example on my Nikonians web gallery, rather than limiting myself to 1100 and 1500 pixels wide images as a typical maximum I use today, I'll probably evolve to 1500 and 1920 with a commensurate uptick in jpg size.

And let's take JPG as another egregious example of something that needs to be phased out - 8 bit compressed format - yuck . So for example in future if I wanted to display a full-sized 14-bit image on my website from a D800E (or 16-bit TIFF etc.), that should be possible. Even RAW itself could be displayed on the web although there is the rendering hurdle, but even that could be overcome with a bit of intelligence.

Email is particularly bad in terms of arbitrary limits. For example, how are D3200 owners going to email their photos around to Grandma if they are 24mp in size. (this needs to work seamlessly, I know perfectly well how to downsize my images, but soccer-Mom Sally may not). So one of my points is these limits that we so blithely accept today without thinking, need to go away and it needs to happen soon. I expect an ongoing IT revolution/evolution driven by extreme competition from Google, Apple, Microsoft and Flickr, PBase, Zenfolio and some of the other big boys.

And don't forget the Cloud is coming. There is no good reason we are all storing our images in our dinky home installations. The limitation why we store things at home now, is the same as what I referred to above - pipe size. The Cloud will drive the need for bigger and faster pipes in a very strong way.

So while I agree very large printing is today's gold standard for evaluation, the electronic format needs to be dragged kicking and screaming forward with better and better monitors, huge high quality electronic frame displays for hanging on the wall, electronic web galleries such as the one here at Nikonians capacities and speeds, and faster email and web pipelines to support that. The D800 is a camera that can evolve forward with you as computers and network capacity increases, so I don't think you necessarily have to be a large format printer to benefit (at least in future).

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

Fovea

Colombo, LK
3653 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#26. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 0

Fovea Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Sep 2002
Fri 13-Apr-12 03:15 PM

>>I'm interested in seeing if I personally can *see* the dynamic range difference without it being pointed out to me.

Neil,
You are asking us to do something that is physically not possible, and here is why.

The dynamic range for all practical purposes, is the ratio between the graphically useful darkest and lightest areas.

The human eye at any given illumination would have a dynamic range of about 6 to 7 stops. With the change in illumination the human eye has the fantastic ability to adjust to a wider dynamic range. The theoretical dynamic range of the human eye would be around 25 stops. This number will differ based on which book you read or which authority you decide to listen to.

Although we can see something like 25 stops, recording and displaying the visible dynamic range has always been a problem due to limitations in the recording and displaying mediums (viz, film, digital sensors, print media and electronic displays)

Even though the D800 is able to capture 14 stops of dynamic range, none of the display solution we have got has the ability to display such a high dynamic range. A high end monitor with a contrast ratio of 1000:1 has a dynamic range close to 10 stops, but once the extremes with detailess black and white are disregarded, we end up with maybe 7 to 8 stops of useful dynamic range.

This is the precise reason why all HDR images have to be tone mapped. Tone mapping involves compressing the data outside the "undisplayable" region of the high dynamic range images to "displayable" region in order to display via 'modern' display devices.

In the past, if a scene with a certain dynamic range needed 2-3 shots with varying exposures to capture the entire range, D800 might reduce that now to 2 exposures or even just one with its claimed 14 stop dynamic range. However, this hasn't changed anything about the display devices. Therefore a 14 stop dynamic range image, irrespective of whether it has been created by combining several exposures or by a single exposure captured with a D800, still needs to be tone mapped until the display manufacturers come up with wide dynamic range displays!

Having said all that if you are interested, you can have a look at the comparison images I have posted on my blog on the first day D800 got released, in a way the low noise level at high ISO levels is directly related to the wider dynamic range!

Regards
Dinil


Struck by Light - Blog & Gallery
Visible Range - Commercial photography & digital imaging solutions

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#27. "D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 0

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Sat 14-Apr-12 12:48 PM | edited Sat 14-Apr-12 01:04 PM by ruedi

OK, I just got back from taking a few comparison shots with my D800 and D700. You can download the raw-files here:

ATTENTION! BIG FILE SIZES!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9292934/D700.NEF (15 MB)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9292934/D800.NEF (43 MB)

Those raw-files are as they came out of the camera.
I took both images on the tripod with the same lens and identical manual settings of ISO, shutter speed and f-stop. I also turned all nois reduction off. You'll notice that the D700 turned out a brighter picture. I can't figure out why.

Unfortunately weather conditions are not so great in Bern at the moment so the images are not really great to compare color.

I processed both photos in Adobe Lightroom (quick and dirty, auto contrast) to JPG. This will give people without the means of converting/viewing raw images at least an idea of the difference.
Just replace the "NEF" in the addresses above with "JPG".

Fell free to contact me if you have questions.

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

piniongear

Houston Texas, US
466 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#28. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 27

piniongear Registered since 29th Jul 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 01:33 PM

Thank you for making the side by side comparison.
I would assume looking at a greatly enlarged pair of pics would show the D800 having greater detail than that made with the D700.

On a computer monitor the only obvious difference is in the exposure as you say with the D700 producing a much lighter photo.
It seems the perfect exposure would lie halfway between these two images.

Assuming the light was a constant, what is the reason for the different exposures? Two different cameras using two different sensors? I am just curious.

And thank you for posting the .NEF images. Nef is all I shoot and the download time on my computer was 1 min 11 secs for the D700 shot and 11 minutes and some seconds for the D800 shot.

Wow! You are going to need a powerful computer with a ton of memory to make use of a D800 is my conclusion.
Perry

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#29. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 28

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Sat 14-Apr-12 02:23 PM

>I would assume looking at a greatly enlarged pair of pics
>would show the D800 having greater detail than that made with
>the D700.

I think this is what these pictures clearly show.

>Assuming the light was a constant, what is the reason for the
>different exposures? Two different cameras using two different
>sensors? I am just curious.

I was asking these questions myself. There is no obvious answer. The light seemed constant. As you can see it was overcast. It is thinkable, that the cloud cover was changing and acting as a changing greyfilter. Another possibilty is that the shutter speed of both cameras was not exactly identical, even though they were both on manual. Or the sensors react differently. More testing to be done!

>Wow! You are going to need a powerful computer with a ton of
>memory to make use of a D800 is my conclusion.

I have an almost two years old model with separate disks for the images and the system. With the few pictures I have taken so far, I haven't had any problems, but we'll see.

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

Jimi

South Lake Tahoe, US
349 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#30. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 29

Jimi Team Member Nikonian since 09th Nov 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 03:31 PM

Ruedi, Thanks for these nefs.

First off I notice the D700 shutter (in my LR4) shows 1/640 and the D800 1/500. Which should make the D800 image lighter. It appears it is about 1 stop darker. That needs to be looked into further.

I adjusted the exposure to match then opened in PS.
I took the marque tool and made a 5x5 ratio, took a very small part of the lower right image, the yellow house with the cobblestone walk and largest tree from both images to compare the same size side by side. The D800 is sharper with much more detail, especially in the tree trunk.

But here's the real benefit I see. Image size. The D800 produces so much larger image that there is really no comparison.

Without resizing the D800 at 240dpi makes a 20x30 print. The D700 at 240dpi makes an 11x17 print.

I don't intend to print images until I get mine but I bet the results will be much more apparent in prints then on the screen.

Jim Stamates
Nikonians Academy Workshop Instructor

https://www.nikoniansacademy.com
http://stamates.com/blog
http://www.stamates.com

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#31. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 29

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sat 14-Apr-12 09:50 PM

Just a heads up on the exposure differences... some important differences in the two exposures and camera settings:

1. Active D-Lighting: D700 - Auto D800 - Off

2. ISO: D700:400 D800:200 (this is the main "mystery" exposure difference)

3. Shutter Speed: D700: 1/650 D800: 1/500

4. Picture Control: D700: Neutral D800: Standard

After unwinding all that in Capture NX2 the images look much closer.

I don't use ACR or LightRoom so I don't know how these settings differences might have affected the rendered JPGs (except the 2/3 stop net difference in ISO/shutter speed certainly would have).

Having done this a few times in the past I can say I probably never got it right the first time either . Always some camera setting difference, especially since I process in CNX2, which uses all those camera settings.

A cloudy day is definitely a potential problem. On the other hand, waiting for a totally blue sky can make these projects never happen...

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

Jimi

South Lake Tahoe, US
349 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#32. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 31

Jimi Team Member Nikonian since 09th Nov 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 10:00 PM

Good catch! I didn't even look at the ISO.
The other settings probably don't change much in Raw but it is always good to reset the cameras to factory defaults, if the defaults are the same for each model.

My E shipped Friday so I will have both in a week.

Jim Stamates
Nikonians Academy Workshop Instructor

https://www.nikoniansacademy.com
http://stamates.com/blog
http://www.stamates.com

icslowmo

Surprise, US
613 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#33. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 32

icslowmo Registered since 01st Jan 2012
Sat 14-Apr-12 11:33 PM | edited Sat 14-Apr-12 11:35 PM by icslowmo

Where did you order your E from????? And when?? If you don't mind me asking..... I have one Pre-ordered from Amazon.

Looking at these NEF files in CS5 after adding 1.05 exp. comp. to D800 file, the D800 does show some more detail at 100% and when down sized to D700 res, seems just a tad bit sharper. Add slight sharpening to the D700 pic and I think you would be hard pressed to see the difference... Unless you really pixel peep....

D800 Down sized and 100% crop:

Click on image to view larger version


D700 100% crop with 50% SmartSharpen @ 0.5 pixels:

Click on image to view larger version


And here is a 100% crop on full res from the D800 with same sharpening applied as D700:

Click on image to view larger version


In boxed in area is were the extra res can be seen even in the down sized D800 pic if you look close enough...

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)
Attachment#3 (jpg file)
Attachment#4 (jpg file)

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#34. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 31

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Sun 15-Apr-12 04:35 AM

I must be more careful next time. I was in a bit of a hurry because the chances of rain were quite big and I wanted the comparison what the difference in resolution was too bad.

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#35. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 34

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 15-Apr-12 09:21 AM | edited Sun 15-Apr-12 10:22 AM by nrothschild

>> I was in a bit of a hurry because the chances of rain...

Been there done that . And you know what? That is typical in the real world that we actually use this gear

I prepared and display below a comparison that I believe to be the most relevant to the resolution decision here.

I adjusted the raw images in Capture NX2 2.3.1 (latest and greatest with D800 update) according to the differences I mentioned. Both are now Standard pic control, ADL off, and I lowered the D700 exposure 1/3 stop and raised the D800 image 1/3 stop to adjust for the net 2/3 stop difference in exposure.

I then up-sized the D700 image to 7360 pixels width and then applied USM 36/5/0, which on a quick look I thought fairly sharpened the up-size step.

I believe this to be the fairest comparison because the primary benefit of more pixels is to get to a certain print density (PPI) with as little up-sizing as possible.

On my monitor (with about 100PPI dot resolution) these are both equivalent to printing about a 4 foot x 6 foot print at 100 PPI. And I think this is a valid real world case for this kind of additional resolution beyond what the D700 provides.

While clearly there is some benefit from the added D800 resolution, I think it is quite subtle. I would personally not pay $3K for the difference I see here, though, even if I were in the habit of making 6 foot prints.

I want to stress that I think it is proper to deviate from "controlled test conditions" at the point where the lower res image is up-sized and then sharpened. I did this in CNX2 because it was quick and convenient.

Photoshop adds additional tools such as up-sizing options. There are other specialized tools for this job. The method and amount of sharpening to apply to the smaller image is a matter of the darkroom developer's art. Others may be better than me, but if they are it will only make the D700 image better, not worse, and further close the gap.

I have shot a surprisingly similar scene for many years, using it to test cameras, resolution, lenses, etc. While very different (and I like yours better for the purposes of this test) they both are landscapes with a lot of fine detail, shot at a long distance and therefore eliminating depth of field problems to the extent possible. Even using a Circle of Confusion equal to the size of the pixel, these scenes, at around 28mm, should be well within perfect focus from corner to corner. That is not easy to contrive in any other real world scene.

After doing this for many years I came to the conclusion that this type of scene suffers from one potentially fatal flaw, and that is the problem of "soft air". The more air you put between the subject and lens the more you are reliant on "atmospheric seeing". It is a particular problem when shooting lenses around 100mm or greater. At 28mm it is normally not such a severe problem- I don't think, but neither have I shot it at 36 mpx .

I visit my scene maybe 10 times a year or so, and I may go years between test shots, waiting for the perfect hour of the perfect day. In this case time is of the essence and you don't have that luxury. I am leery of making too much of your particular images only because it is obviously quite hazy. It is far better to shoot it on a clear day with very dry air but enough wind to blow any air pollution out of the city.

I don't know the weather there; we may be talking about the new D900 before you see those optimum conditions.

The obvious solution is to shoot a shorter distance but then you start having all sorts of depth of field problems. And that leads invariably to shooting the flat test charts that AJ so disdains . These tests are not easy to do, especially if you want to keep it to real world subjects.

I have a huge need for "more resolution" but in my case it is to crop deeply (being a wildlife photographer), not to make 6 foot prints. And there the problems of working at long focal lengths are enormous and vastly exceed something like this test image. I don't think 36 mpx will solve my own resolution problems but that does not suggest it won't help solve other people's problems.

I am trying to say three things here:

1. Even comparing my 4mpx D2h to my current 12 mpx bodies it is not easy to see dramatic differences in resolution. When you scale up from 12 --> 36mpx there are evermore obstacles and evermore diminishing returns. That should be obvious from my "same ppi" comparison. The differences in resolution here are not stunning.

2. One test scene will never answer the question. I've pointed out some problems with this scene. Other scenes should be shot and made available for discussion. Those scenes will invariably have their own problems. But after reviewing a few more we may get a better handle on this. We are looking at the painted toenails of angels dancing on pins here.

3. It should be obvious that a lot of the people that are "wowed" by the D800 samples posted so far, others "gobsmacked" , are for the most part seeing the illusion created by huge numbers of pixels well shot. I saw a claim here by a member that suggested his new D800 lets him retire his macro lens. He can just crop images from his normal lenses . That claim is not consistent with this objective test.

I'm not denigrating this new camera. I'm attempting to dispassionately explain that I believe there are very diminishing real returns here. I hope I am proven wrong, though, by future comparisons.

And I want to repeat that I think Ruedi did a pretty good job here doing something that is extraordinarily difficult to do. My "criticisms" here are simply reflections of the difficulties inherent in truly resolving beyond 12 mpx or so in a significant way.

And finally I would suggest that if it is so difficult to set up a test like this it has to call into question the utility of 36 mpx.

How often are our real life shots (and scenes) so perfect that this resolution is going to be more visible than it might be here?

And certainly, anyone that thinks they are going to use this as a walk around camera and actually get their 36 mpx worth of resolution is in for an unhappy surprise *if* they ever do these objective comparisons themselves. But they won't; they will just be content to be wowed by (the illusion of) huge image files and that, in my opinion, is the magic of megapixel camera marketing


Click on image to view larger version


Edit: I selected my crop area from the section below and slightly left of center. I selected it because it is physically closer(er) to the camera, eliminating as much air as possible, without getting into potential edge and corner issues. I was trying to thread a needle here.

I saw little or no difference at the bottom of the frame, where the scene is closest to the camera but I did not want to be "testing the corner sharpness" of this particular lens, which I also own and use a lot, and think highly of.

If I were doing this test I would have shot it somewhere between f/5.6 and f/8, just to optimize things as best possible. I've never gotten around to carefully testing my own 24-70. I suspect that f/4.5 was "probably good enough" but also probably not optimum, just based on lens tests I've seen and tests of other lenses I've done. Remember, we are looking at the painted toenails of angels dancing on pins
Attachment#1 (jpg file)

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

piniongear

Houston Texas, US
466 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#36. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 35

piniongear Registered since 29th Jul 2006
Sun 15-Apr-12 10:14 AM

Neil,
As usual, you are gifted with the ability to cut through the salad to get to the meat of the matter.
I have read many of your posts in the past, but I think this is one of the better ones.
Thank you for another clear stated view of the subject.
Perry

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#37. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 36

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 15-Apr-12 10:34 AM

Thanks, Perry.

I want to stress that it may not be fair to use a stock out of camera D800 image. That image deserves the same care and attention in terms of final output and it may be possible to squeeze more resolution from that image. If so that is quite proper and the only truly fair comparison, as long as the same attention is paid to both images.

One of the reasons I posted this comparison is to motivate others to try to better it and post their results too. This type of post processing is not my forte. I think we all may have a lot to learn about post processing images from this camera in order to get the resolution it promises.

I would also like to see Ruedi re-shoot this comparison on a better day, if that opportunity arises. This is surely one of the finest cityscape scenes on Earth. If ever a scene deserves the resolution of the D800 this is it . If this is his "backyard" then he is truly blessed!

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#38. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 37

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Sun 15-Apr-12 12:47 PM

>I would also like to see Ruedi re-shoot this comparison on a
>better day, if that opportunity arises. This is surely one of
>the finest cityscape scenes on Earth. If ever a scene
>deserves the resolution of the D800 this is it . If this
>is his "backyard" then he is truly blessed!

Thank you so much Neil! You really point out the important facts in your posts.

The place is actually in walking distance from where I live, and I do feel blessed for that.

I only got the D800 on Friday evening and I just couldn't wait to do some testing. But the weather has been (and still is) unseasonably horrible at the moment in Switzerland. You can be assured I'll go out there again in better conditions. I will try to keep in mind all the settings that could influence the comparison.

It will be in May because I'll be off to do some scuba diving next week in Egypt. I just hope it won't be too warm when I come back, because of warm air distortions that you also mention.

Apart from the comparison, there has also been some discussion about the reasons to upgrade from the D700 to the D800.

I propose we open a new thread on that.

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#39. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 38

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 15-Apr-12 01:12 PM

Glad to help .

>> I just hope it won't be too warm when I come back, because of warm air distortions that you also mention.

The best air will be at sunrise. By the time the sun clears the mountains you may already have problems but generally speaking the earlier the better . The air will not settle down until long after sunset so late afternoon can be equally nice light too but usually the worst air. A strong wind is bad for long focal length images but may not affect short focal lengths.

I have that problem at my "test scene" because I am in a 22 story building to the East that, along with a strip of similar height buildings, casts a bad shadow for at least an hour in the morning. I would think your mountains and hills will create the same problems with the morning sweet light(?)

>> It will be in May because I'll be off to do some scuba diving next week in Egypt.

I would like to have your problems reproducing this test . Hope to see your images in the underwater forum!

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

nrothschild

US
10916 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#40. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 36

nrothschild Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Registered since 25th Jul 2004
Sun 15-Apr-12 11:39 AM

I want to add one further thought.

There has been a series of posts here discussing the fact that this camera magically makes "mediocre" lenses look far better. I don't have a D800 in hand so I can't have a basis for disputing that.

But simply based on my general understanding of these things, and even fully recognizing that "system resolution" is the sum of the lens and the sensor, it would be an understatement to say that I severely question these claims. Especially since they have not been substantiated with any comparative test images at all, much less well done images such as we have here.

I won't say the Emperor has no clothes but I am confident he is less well attired than some people seem to think. All part of that magical "megapixel marketing" I mentioned previously.

I also think there is a huge difference between "better" and "all this sensor can deliver", and that is often lost in the discussion. I also do not understand the desire of some to mate this extraordinary camera with mediocre glass. A Ferrari needs good wheels too, not just a fast engine and tight suspension. I would not buy a Ferrari at a discount if I had to mate it with generic cheap tires to do so.

I would like to see a scene like this shot with some prime lenses, lenses known to be absolutely and unquestionably the sharpest of the lot, based on careful study of a good and varied selection of lenses.

I think a lot of my own 24-70, it being called "the prime killer" when it was first introduced, and I think for good reason. The wide angle primes at that time, in particular, were the older AF-D lenses and they all had their problems if you looked close enough. Many expensive updated fast primes have since been introduced but I don't own them and know little about their true performance.

However, the sharpest resolution I have seen, simply based on my own chart testing, happens to be my 50mm f/1.8 "early long nose" Ai-S. That was, in it's day, a "lowly cheap kit lens" bundled with MF cameras of the day because it cost almost nothing to make and bundle. I have not put that lens head to head with my 24-70, though, nor most of my other lenses, in a test controlled enough to call winners and losers. And certainly not at 36mpx of resolution. But that is one fine lens, for sure. I would like to see that lens working a D800.

This is just to say the "best lens" for resolution may not be the most expensive new fangled $2K f/1.4 prime or fast zoom the market. That needs to be tested. And in terms of sheer resolution, shot at optimum aperture (probably f/5.6 - f/8), there is much "professional test" evidence that the fastest most expensive lenses are not the sharpest. The 85/1.8 AF-D tests, verses its f/1.4 AF-D brethren generated a lot of controversy over this matter.

I suspect that in terms of sheer resolution something around 50mm may be optimum, simply because high quality 50mm lenses are relatively trivial to make and that's why "cheap 50's" can be good lenses for high resolution work. This is just to say that an open mind should be kept in terms of lens selection. I suspect, though, that those magic lenses will not be entry level kit lenses and extreme 10x zooms.

Anyway, I think it would be interesting to see scenes like this shot with different lenses, especially primes. And also an actual test of those previously mediocre lenses that seem to be springing to life as high res wonders .

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
16969 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#41. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 35

walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Master Ribbon awarded as a member who has gone beyond technical knowledge to show mastery of the art and science of photography   Donor Ribbon awarded for his most generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 05th May 2002
Sun 15-Apr-12 12:12 PM | edited Sun 15-Apr-12 12:16 PM by walkerr

First, I don't think resolution is the "be all and end all" of photography. There are many more things with greater impact on a photo, including a creative idea, good composition, great light, etc. Having said that, there are many ways of working with these images, and here's another. I've res'd up the D700 image using bicubic sharper in Photoshop (similar concept to what you did, Neil) and then applied identical small radius sharpening (using Smart Sharpener in CS5) to accentuate the fine detail in the shots. This takes advantage of the fact that the D800 still has detail, whereas as the D700 does not - it's manufactured detail. What would you likely see in a poster-sized print? The D800 would look better, but like I implied at the start, a great image from a D700 will destroy a mediocre image from a D800 and vice versa. Which camera would I prefer to own? I'm guessing since my D800 hasn't arrived yet, but given the changes and improvements, I'm having a hard time imagining I'd want my D700.

D700:

Click on image to view larger version


D800:

Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)

Rick Walker

My photos:

GeoVista Photography

ruedi

Bern, CH
469 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#42. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 41

ruedi Gold Member Nikonian since 15th Nov 2005
Sun 15-Apr-12 12:57 PM

I think these two treated pictures show really good what the D800 is capable of. Thank you Rick. I'm sure, most of the time the high resolution will be overkill but sometimes it will come in really handy.
I specially think of wildlife photography when I'll have enough pixels in the center of the image to crop and therefore "make my lens longer".

Ruedi
Nikonian in Bern, Switzerland

Visit my Nikonians gallery or www.ruedis.ch

walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
16969 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#43. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 42

walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Master Ribbon awarded as a member who has gone beyond technical knowledge to show mastery of the art and science of photography   Donor Ribbon awarded for his most generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 05th May 2002
Sun 15-Apr-12 01:55 PM | edited Sun 15-Apr-12 02:01 PM by walkerr

Like a lot of things with cameras, resolution is a feature you can either choose to use or don't worry about it. It's like autofocus. The fact that I generally use only a single sensor or manual focus doesn't mean I don't value or want 21 or 51-pattern modes on occasion. When I need them, they're great. Resolution is the same. If you need it for a given shot, you can take full advantage of it. If you don't, no worries and you can relax a bit.

I've been using a D3x long enough to know that I do see a difference in larger prints relative to my D3s and D700 and that it's not a scary beast when it comes to lenses. Really good ones remain really good and mediocre ones remain mediocre. I can handhold it at reasonable shutter speeds if I want, especially when using VR. When I say reasonable, I mean reasonable. Not 1/30 sec with a 200mm lens, but I also don't require 1/2000 or higher. I've used a 1/2*focal length guideline for handholding ever since I switched to a D2X (not D3X) years ago, and that continues to work well for me. The D800 is only a 22% increase in linear resolution over my D3x, so I don't expect drastic things to happen on that front. I guess I should strive for a 22% higher shutter speed (less than 1/3 stop). Most of what I actually shoot with my D3X is landscapes at low ISO's, and I'm pretty rigorous about using tripods for those subjects, but a lot of that is driven by low-light conditions. I don't use the D3x much for travel work, but that's driven primarily by its size. I would expect the D800 to pick up that role from the D700, and I look forward to gaining some flexibility.

BTW, I still value cameras like a D3s or D4 and will continue to own one. For certain types of shooting (action-oriented sports or fast-moving wildlife), there's no substitute for a high frames per second rate. You can do pretty well anticipating peak action, but you'll definitely increase the number of keepers you get with a high frame rate.

Also, if you're using NX2 (I used Photoshop CS5 for the above), don't use Picture Control sharpening for landscapes or shots like the above where there's fine detail. It's frankly awful for that. Use USM sharpening with a low radius (3 or 4), crank up the intensity, and ideally do it locally. For Lightroom, ACR, keep the radius down around 0.5 or 0.7, increase the detail slider above 50 (turns it into a deconvolution sharpener) and do it locally as well. I didn't finesse the above shots a lot and could have done more to really make the D800 differences more pronounced. This was a more balanced approach as opposed to a marketing campaign.

Rick Walker

My photos:

GeoVista Photography

Jimi

South Lake Tahoe, US
349 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#44. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 41

Jimi Team Member Nikonian since 09th Nov 2006
Sun 15-Apr-12 01:54 PM

Rick, Perfect! That shows a major difference between the two. Not a slight difference at all.

You are right, there is a lot more to an image than pixels and resolution. I've seen better stuff from point and shoots in the hands of a creative than I've seen from a view camera.

I respectfully disagree that this is a marketing pixel thing. Nikon was after the medium format market when it set out to design the D800. From what I've heard from colleagues that have the D800, they've succeeded.

Rick, you're D800 should be there soon. Mine's in transit.

Jim Stamates
Nikonians Academy Workshop Instructor

https://www.nikoniansacademy.com
http://stamates.com/blog
http://www.stamates.com

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#45. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 41

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Sun 15-Apr-12 03:16 PM

First, thank you.

The d800 is clearly sharper.

But again with the resizing.

I can now see the flaw in the resizing approach. Expand both pictures on an iPad and look at the skylights.

The d700 breaks up into pixels at a certain size. The D800 dos not show pixels even as large as I can make it.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

johno

St. Louis, US
525 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#46. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 35

johno Silver Member Nikonian since 23rd May 2006
Sun 15-Apr-12 03:05 PM

I don't understand the habit of changing the resolution of the d700 to that of the d800 to make a comparison.

If the resolution is made the same in both, isn't the only possible outcome that the pictures look the same?

Also, it is not $3000 for the d800 vs. the D700. The price difference for new is about $800. If you upgrade to D800 the price is $1400 if you sell your D700. If you intend to keep the d700 then it makes little sense unless you must have a backup camera.

Btw I shot video last night of my sisters wedding, mic'd with a wireless and the video quality is excellent.

Having a 1080p (p?) hd video makes the two cameras incomparable. They are simply not the same instrument.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#47. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 27

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 05:26 PM

Thanks for the files! I'll be looking at them shortly.

ajdooley

Waterloo, US
3385 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#48. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 47

ajdooley Gold Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 10:27 PM

I'm going to chip in with my 2 cents here. I agree -- what is the D800 capable of that the D700 is not? Mechanically we have the 100% viewfinder (finally caught up with the F?) and video capability.

But my questions are:

-- How does high ISO performance compare?
-- How does ability to deal with scene brightness range compare?
-- Can I dig detail out of a D800 image that is impossible to define in one from a D700 from the same position?

All the argument that you have to esize images, etc., for a comparison are, in my estimation, pointless and are in yhe realm of shooting resolution targets and brick walls.

Again, can I do things with the D800 I cannot accomplish with my D700's today? If so, what?

I frankly don't remember this argument when the D700 was introduced, at least in this context -- of resizing, of having to shoot on a tripod, etc. Camera vs. camera. That's the question. Then we extrapolate to the next question that some of us have to answer: is the difference worth the $$$? BTW, on the Day the D800 was announced, I was still taking images every day with my two D700 cameras -- and they have not deteriorated a bit! I shot 300 more today, and they will well meet my employer's needs -- same as last year.

Alan
Waterloo, IL, USA
www.proimagingmidamerica.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

JonK

New York, US
6410 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#49. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 48

JonK Moderator Awarded for his high level skills and in-depth knowledge in various areas, such as Wildlife, Landscape and Stage Photography Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2004
Sat 14-Apr-12 10:42 PM

For me there are two big things the D800 has that are superior to the D700:
• More dynamic range at base ISO
• All them extra pixels

As I rarely shoot at base ISO, the first point does not help me. And while the second point would be nice — cropping! — I shoot too often at high ISOs where my D3s is superior.

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

Jimi

South Lake Tahoe, US
349 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#50. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 48

Jimi Team Member Nikonian since 09th Nov 2006
Sat 14-Apr-12 11:11 PM

I completely agree Alan. Buying new gear has to have a purpose and a cost benefit. Unless it's a passion and you just have to have the latest.

I sold my D700, loved it for high ISO, however, my needs are specific for the D800/E...Maximum detail and resolution, period.

I have been printing large pieces, 4x6 feet and although they look great...from a distance, the detail is not near that of a medium format camera. That is what Nikon was aiming for and that's what I'm excited about. I want to know how much more detail in the same size print will I get from the D800 vs my D700. But no one shoots the same so the only way I will really know is to do my own test, soon,

Comparing the D700 to a D800 is really not a valid point. They are two different cameras with two different purposes. I think what has happened is the collective 'we' assumed the D800 was going to be an upgrade replacement for the D700 for so long that we aren't able to let this go. But we still want to compare. It's part of the fun!

I will be writing on my blog MY opinion of both the D800 and D800E in about a week and a half. With 'real world' images, (my world) and prints from those images. Stay tuned.

Jim Stamates
Nikonians Academy Workshop Instructor

https://www.nikoniansacademy.com
http://stamates.com/blog
http://www.stamates.com

SRoss43

US
51 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#51. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 50

SRoss43 Registered since 10th Apr 2012
Sun 15-Apr-12 12:03 AM

Thanks for the D300 vs. D800 comparison earlier. I think it is a good upgrade path for me, from a D300 to D800. For those who have the D700, why bother? You have a good camera.

The Pianoman

IE
1 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#52. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 27

The Pianoman Registered since 24th Mar 2012
Sun 15-Apr-12 08:34 AM

Thanks Ruedi for the d800 file, seeing as im still witing for my d800, i was really anxious to see how my computer would deal with the d800 raw files. Even after upgrading to 8gig ram i still notice a considerable lag but at least i no know what to expect. Thanks again

Clint S

Chula Vista, US
460 posts

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author

#53. "RE: D800 & D700 - same shot request" | In response to Reply # 0

Clint S Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2011
Mon 16-Apr-12 02:17 AM

There is no way to an accurate comparison by viewing resized images, let alone on a computer monitor. If you reduce an image in size you are removing information. If you enlarge an image you are adding interpolated information. When changing the size you change the dynamics of the image, the perceived sharpening or blurring, less or more contrast, alter the dynamic curve of colors and tones, affecting the dynamic range, changing spatial relations, etc.

Take a D800 image at full size 7360 x 4912 and reduce it show to a typically large web image, 1600 x 1065. Do the same with a D700 full size image 4256 x 2832 and reduce it to 1600 x 1065.

With the D800 you have thrown away nearly 80% of the information. With the D700 you have thrown away about 63% of the information. Neither one of these new images are great representations of what either camera is capable of let alone the 17% more infarmation thrown away from the D800 image.

Try this, open Google Earth, zoom in to your street address. Take a good look. Now zoom back out to see the entire earth. What happened to all of that information?

Take a look at your avatar on this web site. Then look at the original image!

Room for argument - find your very best photograph. Get it made into a large 24" wide or larger print. While you're at it have an 8 x 10 made of the same image. When you get them home, compare them. Where did all of the information go in the 8 x 10? Why such a difference?

Now get the 24" or larger print, the 8 x 10 and move it over by your computer. Compare the prints to what you see on the monitor. Which is better? Why the difference? Again not an accurate comparison.

Now go hang that large print somewhere in your home. You deserve to have your best photo on the wall in your home!!!!! Very few will see it on your monitor.

Visit my Nikonians gallery - my Spare Time gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

G