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D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Mon 15-Dec-08 12:40 AM

Hi everyone, I have been waiting a long time to upgrade my existing DSLR and I am really not sure what to do at this point. I primarily shoot portrait and landscape photography and I’m currently using a D100, as I said, I have been waiting a long time to upgrade. I almost upgraded to the D200 a few years ago, however, I held off and purchased some new lenses at that time instead, however, I now have started looking at the D300 and almost went for it before a friend told me about the new Canon 5D MII with full frame and 21MP. I have invested in a few Nikon lenses and like the brand much better than Canon, however, it just opened up the issue of full frame vs. DX and I have been looking for input to help me decide what to do.
To make a long story a little shorter, I am now thinking about the D700 based on reading the forums here. It sounds perfect to me but it is a little light on resolution at 12.1MP compared to the Canon at 21MP. I also went to the DXO website and saw that the top rated DSLR’s are the D3 and the D700 with the Canon 5D MII coming in 4th.
With all that said and the recent introduction of the D3X, I’m wondering how much better the D700x (or whatever) will be and is it worth waiting for that model. My feeling now is that the D700 is already at least slightly better than the Canon 5 MII and the price is less. Also, I hear a lot of talk that the 24.5 MP CMOS is not as good at low light.
I think I have convinced myself that the D700 is the right choice; however, I’m looking for some validation on that. The whole mega pixel thing bothers me a little. My thinking was that 12MP on a DX chip (the D300) sounds better than 12MP on a FX chip (D700) at twice the chip size.
So the bottom line is do I buy the D300, the D700 or wait for the D700x or whatever?
Any comments or input to help put me over the edge and pull the trigger would be great.
PS: I only invested in one DX lens so I’m not too worried about that.
Thanks,
Tony T.

hiroProtagonist

Wesley Chapel, US
150 posts

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#1. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 0

hiroProtagonist Registered since 30th Oct 2006
Mon 15-Dec-08 12:36 AM

I wouldn't count on a D700x anytime soon, at least not until the cost of the 24MP sensor comes way down. Given the D3x's $8000.00 price it may be a while.

>The whole mega pixel thing bothers me a little. My thinking was
>that 12MP on a DX chip (the D300) sounds better than 12MP on a
>FX chip (D700) at twice the chip size.

Same number of pixels on a larger sensor means bigger photocells. Larger photocells can capture more light meaning they require less amplification and hence less noise. Even if a D700x was out right now I'd take the D700's high ISO performance over the higher number of pixels.

Bob Beerbower


My Blog
http://www.thehyperfocaldistance.com


Visit my Nikonians gallery.



The word 'art' is very slippery. It really has no importance in relation to one's work. I work for the pleasure of the work, and everything else is a matter for the critics.

swu00

Brooklyn, US
80 posts

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#2. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 0

swu00 Registered since 05th Dec 2004
Mon 15-Dec-08 12:58 AM | edited Mon 15-Dec-08 01:00 AM by swu00

I also shoot landscape. It seems to me Canon 5D Mark II is a clear winner to me according to these reviews:

http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5677/canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-test.html
http://www.anandtech.com/digitalcameras/showdoc.aspx?i=3470

And this for vidios:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/review-105-Canon%27s+5D+Mark+II%3A+The+World%27s+First+Forbidden+HD+Video%2C+Finally+Official!!.html


According to Pop Photography, Canon 5D mark ii has higher color accuracy than Nikon D3/D700. High ISO are equally good (almost?) for all these of these cameras. D3/D700 have faster AF (0.35 second) vs 5D2's 0.51 second. Huge difference for sports/action shooters, 0 difference for landscape and portrait.

At the end of the day, only you can decide what best fit your needs. If you were not already have a huge Nikon lens collection, it may worth the trouble to take a look at 5D Mark II.

edmun

eugene, US
8618 posts

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#3. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 2

edmun Registered since 16th Sep 2003
Mon 15-Dec-08 01:08 AM

My friend has the d3 and he prints for peoples walls. His high end prints are 30 x 40's.

He used to shoot 6 x 7 Pentax and 4 x 5 Linhof.

His quality is good enough for me. He uses Blow-up for better detail ad sharpness. Epson Printer for prints.

www.grahamsmithphoto.com

My d300 is stunning at 10 x 15 -- have not gone bigger yet.

The D700 is even better than the D300 in all ways.

go to a store -- take a CF card and put the cameras on a tripod and shoot some tests.

I am almost to the point where I think the D300 will be my last camera (at least until this economy gets better)



ledmun

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#4. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 1

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Mon 15-Dec-08 12:04 PM

Thanks for the sensor update and I agree that it will be a while before the D700X is available at a good price. I think I am close to pulling the trigger on the D700.

Tony T.

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#5. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 2

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Mon 15-Dec-08 12:08 PM

That Canon does look good, however, the one problem I see is that it's not a Nikon.

Thanks for your input.
Tony T.

okilayko

Oakville, CA
218 posts

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#6. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 5

okilayko Basic Member
Mon 15-Dec-08 06:18 PM

I had two D200's. Been reluctant to move up because of cost. Then I read and reread all the reviews of the D700. Now, I only got one D200. I traded the other one for the D700. Took the loss in stride for the better images I can make. when I got home, I tried the D700 in dim rooms, even in a closet. All I can say is "Wow!" Go ahead, you won't regret it.

Garrett Hayes

Lucan, Ireland, IE
289 posts

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#7. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 0

Garrett Hayes Gold Member Nikonian since 03rd Nov 2004
Mon 15-Dec-08 09:17 PM

I am not sure what a D700X will be. The whole point I thought about the D700 was that it uses the same sensor as the D3 and and while some features are missing, it produces fabulous low light noise free images. A same size sensor with say 24MP will in all likelihood have a poorer low light capability.So why have a D700X with a poorer low light performance for the sake of a higher megapixel count.

GH

mrcontinental

US
19 posts

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#8. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 0

mrcontinental Registered since 28th Nov 2008
Mon 15-Dec-08 09:44 PM

I too was waiting for an affordable Nikon full frame since I have a boat load of Nikon lenses and was quite content with my little D70 for general stuff and my D1H for sports and a D1X in raw for landscapes but the D700 replaces every single one of these and allows me to get shots I could only dream about handheld at night and does everything else extremely well and I am thrilled with it in every way. If you specialize in landscapes I guess the Canon has the edge for the perfectionist but since I got my D700 last week I have yet to find anything that it does not do very well. It was ready to shot straight out of the box and since I've been tweaking it the sky is the limit. With good glass mounted on it the D700 is as close to "the grail" as it gets for me. More pixels clogging up my hard drive means nothing to me so 12 to 13 MP is about right and I have no need for 21 to 24 MP. The only reason I waited this long was because of the obligatory price drop after the "newness" wore off but this is a purchase I will never regret making.

texxter

Plano, US
2359 posts

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#9. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 8

texxter Awarded for his high skills in studio photography Registered since 18th Feb 2006
Mon 15-Dec-08 09:49 PM

I've been shooting portraits with a D200 and later a D300 for while. Great cameras. I got a D700 and I am amazed. I don't think I'll be touching the D200 or D300, this camera is that good. The 35mm DoF is what I was missing with the DX sensor. I love it in every way!

________________
Paco Romero
(website|blog| RSS|Facebook|gallery)

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#10. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 9

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Mon 15-Dec-08 10:58 PM

Sounds good, I got some really good input on the forum and I think I have made up my mind, the D700 is for me!

Quick note, I was also looking forward to getting the Lucis Art software but found out I can't run it on my non-intel mac.

Anyway, thanks!
Tony T.

pintofguinness

US
312 posts

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#11. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 10

pintofguinness Registered since 13th Jul 2007
Thu 18-Dec-08 03:35 PM

>Sounds good, I got some really good input on the forum and I
>think I have made up my mind, the D700 is for me!
>
>Quick note, I was also looking forward to getting the Lucis
>Art software but found out I can't run it on my non-intel
>mac.
>
>Anyway, thanks!
>Tony T.


Tony,

Try Topaz Adjust. It is very similar to Lucis and a lot cheaper

Denise

http://denisemcnickle.com

Play Like A Champion Today
"Remember the qualities that form the foundation of
success: discipline, self-confidence, determination and perserverance"
Ara Parseghian

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#12. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 11

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Thu 18-Dec-08 03:58 PM

I'll see what I can find out about Topaz Adjust, I assume it works on non-Intel MAC's.

Thanks you very much.

Tony

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#13. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 11

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Thu 18-Dec-08 04:12 PM

Hi, I checked it out, however, it will only run on an intel mac as well. I should post on the HDR forum and see what I get.

Thanks,
Tony

SVA

CH
645 posts

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#14. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 0

SVA Registered since 26th Jun 2004
Thu 18-Dec-08 06:02 PM | edited Thu 18-Dec-08 06:03 PM by SVA

I do not think a 24MP D800 with D3x sensor will be here soon - to good to come true...

Why? D3 is $5K, the same sensor smaller D700 is $3K - one saves $2K and some weight, but pays for this economy with - V-grip and considerably reduced speed - both essential for a hand-held sports camera (with heavy glass) D3 is designed to be.

Now imagine - D3x is $8K, the same sensor smaller D800 - $5K... One would save $3K and weight - and... loose NOTHING - speed is already nothing special in D3x - neither is of any importance (along with V-grip) for a tripod mounted studio camera D3x is designed to be...

I know for sure why I like my D3 better then my D700 – but would see nearly no reason to pay for my D3x (yes I have all three) if I could have a D800 (as well as I would need no D700 – a D3+D800 combo would cover all my needs)...

So, I expect a 24MP D800 early next year – but only with a cheap Sony sensor – and not more expensive then D700 (specially for megapixel hunters).

Vladimir
Russian Nikonian in Switzerland

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#15. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 14

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Thu 18-Dec-08 06:28 PM

Thank you for the input, does anyone know for certain that the D3X is using the Sony sensor? Also, what makes you think that the D800 with the 24MP sensor will be here early next year?

Thanks,
Tony

SVA

CH
645 posts

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#16. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 15

SVA Registered since 26th Jun 2004
Thu 18-Dec-08 08:22 PM

D3x is NOT using the same sensor as Sony A900... I don't know if it is also produced by Sony but it's different (better).

As for D800 (or whatever they call it) - I know nothing for sure, I just expect it because there is market for it and no problem to make it... but think the quality (and price) will be like Sony - maybe the same sensor, not D3 sensor.

Vladimir
Russian Nikonian in Switzerland

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#17. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 0

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Fri 26-Dec-08 03:44 PM

Just wanted to let everyone know that I ordered my D700 today from B&H for 2319.95. I'm very excited and hope to receive it on Tuesday of next week.

Thanks to all for the input!

Tony T.

Richard Jernigan

Austin, US
121 posts

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#18. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 1

Richard Jernigan Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 16th Sep 2004
Sat 27-Dec-08 02:15 AM | edited Sat 27-Dec-08 02:21 AM by Richard Jernigan

It is not primarily, or even significantly, amplifier noise that contributes to high ISO noise. It is the variable arrival rate of photons at different points on the sensor for a given average brightness at the photosites.

Put out 12 million espresso cups in a rainstorm, and another 12 million teacups. You may need help. Or you may regard it as a thought experiment. At any rate, if you watch the rain drops hitting big puddles, you will note that the rain doesn't fall at the same rate everywhere all the time. It's falls more heavily here, then there, then elsewhere.

Leave the cups in the rain for a few seconds, then bring them in to measure. You will note different data for the two different sets of cups. If you calculate the variance of the amounts in the espresso cups and divide by the overall average amount of water in the espresso cups, you will find a larger value than for the same calculation for the bigger cups. The estimation of the average rainfall from the espresso cups is noisier than it is for the teacups with their bigger area, and thus higher amount of water in each of the big cups.

The effect is the same for photons falling on larger or smaller photodiodes in different sensors. The shorter the exposure, or the narrower the lens opening, the more variation there is in the number of photons falling on each photodiode. But the relative variation is greater for the DX-sized photosites than it is for the larger FX-sized one--given the same number of photodiodes on each sensor.

Bill Claff's measurements show that the dominant contributor to high-ISO noise is the photon "shot noise" I have been discussing. Amplifier noise contributes only very faintly. We are used to hearing or seeing noise in highly amplified signals. We are unaccustomed to the quantum mechanical effect of photon shot noise.

RNJ

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#19. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 18

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Sat 27-Dec-08 02:39 PM

>It is not primarily, or even significantly, amplifier noise
>that contributes to high ISO noise. It is the variable arrival
>rate of photons at different points on the sensor for a given
>average brightness at the photosites.
>
>Put out 12 million espresso cups in a rainstorm, and another
>12 million teacups. You may need help. Or you may regard it as
>a thought experiment. At any rate, if you watch the rain drops
>hitting big puddles, you will note that the rain doesn't fall
>at the same rate everywhere all the time. It's falls more
>heavily here, then there, then elsewhere.
>
>Leave the cups in the rain for a few seconds, then bring them
>in to measure. You will note different data for the two
>different sets of cups. If you calculate the variance of the
>amounts in the espresso cups and divide by the overall average
>amount of water in the espresso cups, you will find a larger
>value than for the same calculation for the bigger cups. The
>estimation of the average rainfall from the espresso cups is
>noisier than it is for the teacups with their bigger area, and
>thus higher amount of water in each of the big cups.
>
>The effect is the same for photons falling on larger or
>smaller photodiodes in different sensors. The shorter the
>exposure, or the narrower the lens opening, the more variation
>there is in the number of photons falling on each photodiode.
>But the relative variation is greater for the DX-sized
>photosites than it is for the larger FX-sized one--given the
>same number of photodiodes on each sensor.
>
>Bill Claff's measurements show that the dominant contributor
>to high-ISO noise is the photon "shot noise" I have
>been discussing. Amplifier noise contributes only very
>faintly. We are used to hearing or seeing noise in highly
>amplified signals. We are unaccustomed to the quantum
>mechanical effect of photon shot noise.
>
>RNJ

I'll keep it as a thought experiment; very helpful!

Thanks,
Tony T

Max Power

St. Paul, US
434 posts

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#20. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 17

Max Power Registered since 13th Jan 2006
Sat 27-Dec-08 10:49 PM

I just did the same thing.




It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.

Ramesses

US
2035 posts

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#21. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 7

Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007
Sun 28-Dec-08 05:12 PM | edited Sun 28-Dec-08 05:13 PM by Ramesses

>I am not sure what a D700X will be. The whole point I thought
>about the D700 was that it uses the same sensor as the D3 and
>and while some features are missing, it produces fabulous low
>light noise free images. A same size sensor with say 24MP will
>in all likelihood have a poorer low light capability.So why
>have a D700X with a poorer low light performance for the sake
>of a higher megapixel count.

Hi GH:

Yours is an excellent question that I do not know the answer to. One reason is that I do not understand censor and CMOS technology as good as I should – it is too technical for me. The following is what I think to know.

More pixels are the way to go. You get more resolution and more 3D type of images with better color rendition. A very learned individual told me, a long time ago, that for digital sensors to be as good as film, you would need 30 MP. Therefore, 24 MP is getting there. On the other hand, bigger pixel size is also important – better images. This is the main advantage of the D700 over the D300 – same amount of pixels but bigger. However, in CMOS, as I understand it, there is an optimum pixel size and bigger than that, the quality of the photos begins to deteriorate. Therefore, new technologies have to be developed to break this barrier.

I believe that the new 24 MP D3x sensor is designed by Nikon and manufactured by Sony. However, there are some problems associated with it. Firstly and the most obvious is the price. It must have cost them a bundle to develop and thus the cost – they have to recover their R&D investment. Lastly, it might need new type of lenses to fully take advantage of the technologies involved. On the other hand, we might have reached the end of CMOS and a new type of sensor, like Foveon, for example, might be the way of the future (I’m guessing, because I do not know and should.)

There are other problems too. More pixels = more computer power. I just upgraded to a Dual Core 3GHz. I simply cannot afford to keep upgrading bodies and PC’s, including laptops. Therefore, instead of waiting for the D800, I went ahead with the D700 – I do not print, just publish on the web.

My understanding is that the D700x is due shortly. The main reason for it is for the pros that have a D3x and need a less costly backup. I do not understand what’s the big deal about that since the D700 or D3 seems to be more than adequate backups, but I’m not a pro.

Best Regards,

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

Ramesses

US
2035 posts

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#22. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 1

Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007
Mon 29-Dec-08 12:11 AM

>
>Same number of pixels on a larger sensor means bigger
>photocells. Larger photocells can capture more light meaning
>they require less amplification and hence less noise. Even if
>a D700x was out right now I'd take the D700's high ISO
>performance over the higher number of pixels.

Hi:

As I understand it, you are absolutely right. However, there is a tradeoff between size and quality. Bigger photocell size = better quality. The same can be size about pixel quantity. However, in CMOS there is an optimum photocell size, because, as I understand it, each pixel has its own magnifier. After that, the quality begins to degrade. It could be that D700 12.1 MP, in a FX sensor, has its optimum photocell size. Adding more pixels might not translate into more quality by the amount of pixels added. In other words, more pixels = more quality but twice as many pixels might not translate into twice the quality; it could be a fraction between 1 and 2.

Then we can derive a whole set of questions:

How many more pixels can be put into an FX sensor to appreciable increase the quality?
How many pixels can the human eye see? Is there a maximum?
Has CMOS reached its maximum potential?
Is there any other sensor technology out there that I have not heard of?

Best Regards,

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

Stephen97801

US
7 posts

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#23. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 22

Stephen97801 Registered since 12th Dec 2008
Mon 29-Dec-08 03:58 PM | edited Mon 29-Dec-08 04:05 PM by Stephen97801

>Then we can derive a whole set of questions:
>
>
>Is there any other sensor technology out there that I have not
>heard of?
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Ramesses
>

Yes, there is another see it at:
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=67

Unfortunately it is only available on the Sigma camera
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/cameras/default.asp

Teru

HK
46 posts

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#24. "I'm more interested in the price drop" | In response to Reply # 0

Teru Registered since 06th Jan 2006
Tue 30-Dec-08 01:43 AM

The D700 is pretty much the best camera choice for me. The only factor that's preventing me from buying it is the possibility of a D700X (a D3X sensor in a D700 body) coming out soon. Not because I want the functionality of a D700X but simply because its existence would cause a substantial price drop for the D700. I don't shoot for a living, so I'm perfectly happy to make due with my D80 if the price of the D700 is going to fall in the next 2~3 months.

And just a reminder of Nikon's track record: the D40X was released 4 months after the D40, and the D700 has already been out for 5 months.

---
It's not what you look at that matters; it's what you see.

Gallery: http://www.photo.net/photos/teru

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#25. "RE: I'm more interested in the price drop" | In response to Reply # 24

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Tue 30-Dec-08 02:59 AM

I feel the same way, however, I just couldn't wait any longer. But you are correct, the price will fall further.

Tony T

tony t

Mount Arlington, US
42 posts

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#26. "RE: I'm more interested in the price drop" | In response to Reply # 25

tony t Gold Member Nikonian since 21st Nov 2005
Tue 30-Dec-08 05:46 PM

OK, I think I did the right thing! Just received my D700 today and have started to read the manual and will take it out this afternoon to get some shots. It has such a great feel and it's a big improvement over my D100, which I love very much. Anyway, thanks to everyone who encouraged me to pull the trigger on this sweet camera.

Tony T

Richard Jernigan

Austin, US
121 posts

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#27. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 22

Richard Jernigan Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Nikonian since 16th Sep 2004
Tue 30-Dec-08 08:12 PM

Ramesses wrote:

"...there is a tradeoff between size and quality."

What specifically is meant by "quality" in this case?

RNJ

Ramesses

US
2035 posts

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#28. "RE: D700 now or wait for the D700X or whatever it will be?????" | In response to Reply # 23

Ramesses Registered since 29th Mar 2007
Thu 01-Jan-09 05:56 PM

Hi Stephen:

Thanks for your response.

I was aware of the Foveon X3 sensor and the Sigma cameras that has been out there for some time. However, if the technology involved is that advanced, why had Sony, Canon, or Nikon jumped on it, already? I have not heard anything that they are working on a foveon sensor. What I do not know that if there is something else in the works?

More pixels = more resolution or 3D. However, what I’ve seen and read leads to conclude that CMOS is nearing its limits. Is CCD still alive?

Best Regards,

Ramesses

A Nikonian in Kemet

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

G