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D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space

prophotoman

Oakdale, US
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prophotoman Registered since 27th Jun 2009
Sat 14-Nov-09 05:44 PM | edited Sat 14-Nov-09 06:01 PM by prophotoman

I have only had my D700 a few months. I always shoot in raw 14 bit mode. I am wondering about an article I read earlier today concerning "Pro Photo RGB" which stated that Pro Photo RGB is the "RAW" camera format. Is this true for the Nikon line? Since it has the largest gamut of all the formats, I would like to know what steps I need to follow in order to work in Pro Photo RGB... also RAW format is only 14 bit max, how does one work at a minimum of 16 bits? I am one CONFUSED photographer with 40 years experience in film photography and relatively new to digital... but not a complete neophyte! Thanks for any help you can provide!!

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d700man

UK
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#1. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 0

d700man Registered since 06th Nov 2009
Sat 14-Nov-09 04:57 PM

If you shoot sRGB in camera you can avoid that terrible underscore in the file name and change the colour space to whatever you want when the file is opened in NX2.

My NX2 and CS4 colour spaces are RGB.

My files are named 300_xxxx.NEF or 700_xxxx.NEF.

DG

prophotoman

Oakdale, US
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#2. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 1

prophotoman Registered since 27th Jun 2009
Sat 14-Nov-09 05:06 PM | edited Sat 14-Nov-09 05:08 PM by prophotoman

How does changing the file name change the color space to Pro Photo RGB? Not only that, the article said to shoot raw... not sRGB.

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ScottChapin

Powder Springs/ATL, US
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#3. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 2

ScottChapin Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in various areas, including Aviation and Birds Photography Charter Member
Sat 14-Nov-09 05:41 PM

You have to install the Pro Photo codec on your machine and select it as the default color space in your editing programs. You might check the preferences in your editor to see whether it is already out there.

You need to use RAW files to take advantage of it, because JPEGs will clip the color space in sRGB. RAW files have no color space per se. Their gamut is restricted only by the color profile you are using.

I have Pro Photo as my default space and export to sRGB when the need dictates.

Scott Chapin
Powder Springs, GA, USA

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prophotoman

Oakdale, US
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#4. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 3

prophotoman Registered since 27th Jun 2009
Sat 14-Nov-09 06:39 PM | edited Sat 14-Nov-09 06:40 PM by prophotoman

Thanks Scott. So I should shoot in raw 14 bit with the color space set on my D700 to Adobe RGB, then load into CS4 with the default space set to Pro Photo RGB. I appreciate the help!

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ScottChapin

Powder Springs/ATL, US
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#5. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 4

ScottChapin Moderator Awarded for his high level skills in various areas, including Aviation and Birds Photography Charter Member
Sun 15-Nov-09 08:44 AM

That would be correct.

Scott Chapin
Powder Springs, GA, USA

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artizen65

Littleton, US
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#6. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

artizen65 Registered since 01st Jan 2008
Sun 15-Nov-09 12:30 PM

This may help.

http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/pdfs/understanding_digitalrawcapture.pdf

Also there is a book by Bruce Frasier called. "Real World Color Management" http://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-2nd/dp/0321267222/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258295260&sr=1-4

These should help.

Have a great day.

Michael P. Meyers

http://www.artizencreations.com

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maarten_vis

NL
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#7. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 4

maarten_vis Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jan 2007
Fri 20-Nov-09 09:35 AM

I was just wondering: what is the advantage on shooting in 14 bit RAW mode?

And if I understand correctly: the in-camera color mode for RAW files is not so important, since you change the color space when you import into your computer? (Lightroom in Pro Photo mode in my case)

Maarten Vis
www.maartenvis.com
www.spaceboys.nl

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KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
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#8. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 7

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006
Sat 21-Nov-09 01:58 PM

The advantage of 14-bit is math. Having (I forget the actual values but something like) 4096 values in going from lowest to highest exposure for a color channel, to 16,000 values in doing so.

The result is subtle only because 12-bit is already very good, so 14-bit is better than very good Also said to give one "better data" for further manipulation in post. Especially if one needs to do heavy manipulation in post. Thom Hogan says "capture better data".

I believe the result of 14-bit is summed up as "better tonality" in the subtle result. There are even those high-end photographers (currently only available on Medium Format?) who express a need for 16-bit.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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prophotoman

Oakdale, US
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#9. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 6

prophotoman Registered since 27th Jun 2009
Tue 23-Mar-10 11:53 AM | edited Tue 23-Mar-10 12:11 PM by prophotoman

It appears that sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB all have the same NUMBER of colors, just that ProPhoto RGB spreads those within a wider range of colors or gamut.

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nwcs

Knoxville, US
7030 posts

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#10. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 9

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Tue 23-Mar-10 12:13 PM

That is my understanding as well. Each color space (for a converted NEF file) has its advantages and disadvantages. Although I'll say this, for all of my photography I've rarely seen any noticeable visual difference between the different color spaces. I just use Adobe RGB since I can set it in the camera and my printer can use it. Easy enough for me. I haven't run into any people who get my shots who wished for slightly more tonality in ProPhoto RGB or slightly more saturation in sRGB.

blw

Richmond, US
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#11. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 10

blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004
Tue 23-Mar-10 11:39 PM

There are now printers whose gamut exceeds what Adobe RGB can represent in some colors. So if you're going to print on those printers, it's best to retain the largest processing gamut, which is ProPhoto these days. On the other hand, those printers are definitely not the majority, and it's only in specific areas of the color space that you'll see any difference at all.

_____
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robsb

San Jose, US
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#12. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 8

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Tue 23-Mar-10 11:51 PM

The numbers you are looking for are 8 bit can produce 256 shades of color, 12 bit 4096 and 14 bit 16384 shades of color. Nikon processes the 14 bit data as 16 bit by moving the high values into the top end of the bit bucket. There are more shades assigned to the higher (highlight Tones) than to shadows. In any case as you can see there are more shades available across the whole image that allows you to get smoother gradients, less abrupt changes across hard edges and the ability to do serious changes to your image without creating artifacts.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

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Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

robsb

San Jose, US
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#13. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 9

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Wed 24-Mar-10 12:00 AM | edited Wed 24-Mar-10 12:03 AM by robsb

The number of shades of color are a function of the bit depth. The actual colors you can or cannot work with and or produce are a function of the Gamut. If you overlayed the CIE plots for each of the color profiles you will see that Pro Photo allows more colors to be worked with,than sRGB or Adobe RGB but there is no output device, monitor or Printer that can produce it to my knowledge. All of the drivers convert to sRGB for output. You cannot see it on your monitor as most monitors today are sRGB. Yet since we are dealing with digital bits your computer can still process them. LAB space is also a wide gamut space and there are many colors it produces that cannot be printed as well. This is why most software has a feature to show you what colors are out of gamut i.e. will not print as expected and usually the drivers will select the next closest color that will print. The Nikon camera offers you an sRGB and a Adobe RGB space to save your JPEG's and TIFFs in. As others have said a RAW file has no real space, but needs you to assign one for you to process the image into something you can see. What you see on the camera monitor is the embedded JPEG in the RAW file with the color space you selected in camera applied.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

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Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

MstrBones

AW
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#14. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Wed 24-Mar-10 04:10 PM | edited Wed 24-Mar-10 04:10 PM by MstrBones

>Pro Photo RGB is the "RAW" camera format

That is not really true at all.

Adobe RGB is the standard of the publishing world, works with all the DSLR line of Nikon, Canon and other major camera brands and advanced printers like the K3 ink Epsons.

""

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#15. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 13

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Thu 25-Mar-10 01:43 AM

Bob,

Do the color spaces limit the number of shades of color? If so, do you know what the limits are?

To try to clarify the questions, I assume that I can bring 14-bits (16,384) shades of red from my D700's RAW image into an editor utilizing ProPhoto RGB and that ppRGB has, say, 40.000 available shades into which to map those shades. Then I select a printer/paper destination and it has some different number of shades of red, say, 12,000, with which to print. The editor selects the shades of red in ProPhoto closest to the shades from the camera which exactly match the available shades in the printer and outputs the file for printing. If aRGB has 20,000 shades of red and sRGB has only 10,000 shades, neither will allow the editor to select as close a match to the printer because the selection is more limited.

If my assumptions are wrong in principal please blow them out of the water so that I can re-educate myself. Thanks...

Rob

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elec164

US
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#16. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 14

elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009
Thu 25-Mar-10 04:53 AM

>>Pro Photo RGB is the "RAW" camera format
>
>That is not really true at all.
>
>Adobe RGB is the standard of the publishing world, works with
>all the DSLR line of Nikon, Canon and other major camera
>brands and advanced printers like the K3 ink Epsons.

Well the quote you replied to is misstated but sort of true.

Raw data has no color space. The raw data if 14 bit mean that each sensor site is represented by one of 16,384 shades of grey. Once the raw data is converted it then becomes either 24 or 48-bit RGB and is assigned a color space.

Presently I am reading and studying the book ‘Color Management’ co-authored by Bruce Fraser and I am about half way through it. To say the least it can get my head spinning like a scene from the ‘Exorcist’. But interestingly so far they make no mention of sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB directly but do mention the CIE spaces such as LAB, LUV and XYZ quite often.

Perhaps a bit of history will help and define what sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto mean. Back in the mid 1990’s HP and Microsoft collaborated in creating the sRGB space (smaller then Adobe RGB) that represented the display of the average computer monitor of the day. A bit later Adobe created Adobe RGB (about 50% of CIE LAB space) as a way to represent press CMYK on computer RGB monitors. Once digital cameras became more popular Kodak developed ProPhoto RGB (about 90% of CIE LAB) as a better representation of real world color that better suited the needs of photography.

Where the problem arises is that today’s inkjets can now produce colors outside of the Adobe RGB color space. So to unlock and avail yourself of that ability you need a larger color space. ProPhoto color space is large enough to encompass most of today’s devices but has issues in that it is so large you can run into problems with out of gamut colors and the way they get remapped especially when printing.

Hoped that helped and as Rob says “blow me out of the water if in error”, so that I can correct any misconceptions about color management I may have as I am learning them before the get to set in.

Pete


Pete

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#17. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 15

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Thu 25-Mar-10 05:43 AM | edited Thu 25-Mar-10 05:52 AM by robsb

Perhaps this will help:

http://wildnaturephotos.com/Public/GamutComparison/

A key point in this article is that if you are using ProPhoto by moving an aRGB file into it you really gain nothing. This article speaks to scanning film with a hi res scanner and then assigning a Pro RGB gamut to it. You will note that an any case using sRGB or aRGB and even ProPhoto you will still find colors that are outside the ability of the gamut to cover or for a printer to print. Some Epson printer examples are given. So my take on your question is "it depends" that is if the color you are trying to produce is outside the printable gamut then you will never reproduce the color no matteer if you are using a 14 bit file. For a very good discussion on problems of printing colors, read Dan Margoulis's book Professional Photoshop. When I was doing exclusive work in Photoshop I always worked in Lab space.Maybe an expert will add to this.Here is another take on it.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/prophoto-rgb.shtml

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#18. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 17

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Thu 25-Mar-10 12:52 PM

Bob, thanks for the references. The wildnaturephotos article is a valuable addition to the information I've been collecting which includes your referenced luminous-landscape article plus others and everything I can collect by Jeff Schewe and Bruce Fraser. These references convinced me to process only in ProPhoto a long time ago.

My attempt to clarify my question was too simplistic and could be misleading. Pay no attention.

I think I'm beginning to get a handle on the idea of color space limits and mapping but it would take a lot of space/words to address. I'm working on a writeup that I'll try to put out for comment if I can figure out how to upload into, and edit in, a blog.

Rob

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#19. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 18

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Thu 25-Mar-10 02:11 PM

Rob I wrote the response just before I hit the hay, and should have stated the obvious that references to film scans also apply to RAW as since no RAW color space exhists until we assign one, it would imply that shooting JPEG or TIF andthen using PRORGB would make no sense as they would have assigned color spaces that could not recover color not there. I do wonder why weare not processing in Lab space as it is the best.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

elec164

US
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#20. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 19

elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009
Thu 25-Mar-10 04:33 PM

>I do wonder why weare not processing in Lab space as it is the
>best.

Well you are correct in that CIELAB is sort of the mother of all color spaces.

I read in a few sources why one might not want to work in CIELAB. But I think it is best summed up in this quote from Norman Koren’s Color Management: Implementation Part 1 .

Quote:

“Why not use CIEXYZ or CIELAB as a working color space”
“They are device-independent, referenced by ICC profiles, and their color gamut includes the entire range of human vision. Two reasons. (1) They are not intuitive. The meaning of each coordinate is more obscure than RGB. (2) The full gamut of human vision encompasses only about 30% of the numerical values in these spaces. (The diagram above only shows x up to 0.8 and y up to 0.9; there's a lot more empty space.) Wide-gamut spaces use about 25%; narrow-gamut spaces such as sRGB are down to 15%. This is equivalent to losing 2 bits of numerical precision. In 24-bit RGB files, which have an 8-bit color depth, only 6 bits would remain-- not enough for good tonal rendition. This isn't a problem for 48-bit color images, which have a 16-bit color depth.”

Although I imagine you could use the same argument against ProPhotoRGB. I am not saying I agree with Norman’s position, just thought I would put it up as another reference for those who have not seen it.

Pete

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#21. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 20

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Thu 25-Mar-10 05:06 PM

Pate thanks for the quote. I disagree with him on a number of points. My view is based upon learning about Lab from Dan Margoulis's outstanding Lab book on using the Lab space in post processing. So point one "not intuitive" I guess he things Red Green and Blue color mixing is intuitive? The real advantage of using Lab is the Luminance channel (L) is totally independent of the a and b channels. So when you work on Luminance alone, you do not effect color. I actually find it easier to understand the Lab space than RGB. The second point is a plus for Lab. The real issue with Lab is that you can produce colors that are not producible by any known output. You can make huge changes without creating artifacts and two well known tricks in Lab space can produce amazing results in seconds. The first is sharpening in the L channel and the second is steepening the 3 curves by one box to make color and contrast pop. You can blur the a and b channels to reduce color noise. Try that in RGB space. When I Work in Photoshop Lab is my space of choice. So the color space is available in Photoshop. I do not know if it can be used in NX2. I would like to try it though.

Bob Baldassano
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"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

MstrBones

AW
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#22. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 16

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Thu 25-Mar-10 05:14 PM

>Well the quote you replied to is misstated but sort of true.

Not really. Adobe is the print industry standard, and if you tried to submit images in other color spaces, you very well might have your work rejected.

>Raw data has no color space.

Of which I am well aware. With a RAW image in an editor like NX 2, you can swap color spaces all day long. That doesn't make it a good idea.

The nice thing about Adobe RGB, is that from the moment you shoot the image and look at a histogram, (and the histogram will move around as color space, contrast, and in-camera saturation is adjusted), through editing, till final print, a photographer can know exactly what their work is going to be and will look like. Until Pro Photo is an in-camera color selection and whatever printer you own will accept it, it is simply a distraction in the image workflow.

""

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#23. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 22

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Thu 25-Mar-10 07:08 PM

David, I was going to reply with a little sarcasm about dropping my successful workflow with beautifully colored prints and falling back to using the "print industry standard" but I thought it would be more productive to forget my preconceptions and learn more along side you.

To that end, for my education, please provide us with authoritative links supporting your conclusions. For your parallel education, I suggest reading the many links already supplied in this thread.

When we are both more informed, we can strive together to achieve workflow nirvana (which is where I thought I was until reading your posts and others with the enticing allusions to Lab space).

Rob

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rrweather

Suisun City, US
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#24. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 23

rrweather Registered since 18th Apr 2002
Thu 25-Mar-10 09:16 PM

I'm a total newb to this stuff but find it interesting. I've read through the posts and some of the links posted. I want to make sure I understand this on a basic level...a wider gamut gives us colors that are spread out over a wider range, which would be ideal as long as we have the means to display those colors (either on a monitor or in print). So the limitation for now is monitors and printers. As the technology progresses and we have printers and monitors available that display the wider gamuts, we could have better looking colors. Until then, today's monitors and printers are the limiting factor? Please forgive the stupid question, but what is the advantage of using a color space that can not be accurately displayed or printed? The one advantage mentioned on the luminous-landscape site is that any photos taken today and used with the pro photo RGB could be used with new technology tomorrow. "Future proofing" might be a way to describe that.

As I relate it, it would be similar to cable companies broadcasting HD content before HD televisions were ever invented. Maybe I am wrong in how I understand it.

Sorry if I am taking this discussion back to a lower level. I am simply trying to learn more. As I said, I do find it interesting.

C-5 Eng

MstrBones

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#25. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 23

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Thu 25-Mar-10 11:32 PM

>I was going to reply with a little sarcasm about dropping my successful workflow with beautifully colored prints

Sarcasm? What sarcasm?

>To that end, for my education, please provide us with authoritative links supporting your conclusions.

Oh, that sarcasm....

""

elec164

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#26. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 22

elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009
Thu 25-Mar-10 11:58 PM

>>Well the quote you replied to is misstated but sort of
>true.
>
>Not really. Adobe is the print industry standard, and if you
>tried to submit images in other color spaces, you very well
>might have your work rejected.
>Until Pro Photo is an in-camera color
>selection and whatever printer you own will accept it, it is
>simply a distraction in the image workflow.

I get the feeling that you somehow got the impression that I was referring to your statement about Adobe RGB being the industry standard as the misstatement. I thought it would be clear that I knew and agreed with that when I stated that Adobe created that space specifically to be able to represent press CMYK on the computers RGB. In fact I would be more surprised if it were still not the standard.

I also get the impression you are somehow involved in the press industry, which may form your strong opinion.

What I was further commenting on is what appeared to be a contradiction or lack of understanding in your statement when you included the Epson K3 ink set in you post.

What I tried to point out was the issue of out of gamut color and not total color. A quick check of one reference shows that Adobe RGB provides about 1.3 million colors while commercial offset printing provides about 400,000 while a wide gamut Epson printer with the K3 inks can provide 800,000 colors. As one can see Adobe RGB provides more colors then either offset printing or Epson K3 ink printer does. But plot the colors on a graph and you will see that the offset colors are totally included in Adobe RGB space while the Epson has a considerable number of colors outside the Adobe RGB gamut.

If you do not care about this unused ability then by all means keep on using the Adobe RGB space. On the other hand if you wish to use that ability you paid for then you will need to use a wider space such as ProPhoto or CIELAB.

And that is why I said sort of true when commenting about raw color space. There is no definite choice here and the space is really determined by your usage. If you are only taking images for use on the web then you could shoot in sRGB. If working for a printing company or magazine publication the Adobe RGB should be the space of choice. If you are a enthusiast or Pro printing yourself and selling your work then you just may wish to use the wide space such as ProPhotoRGB or CIELAB.

I am just starting out trying to understand this whole color management issue so I am sorry for any possible misunderstanding.

Pete

Pete

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Robp

Gainesville, US
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#27. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 24

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Fri 26-Mar-10 01:36 AM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 02:14 AM by Robp

It's a good question with a good analogy but technology does move on. There is a reference in another thread (Color Space For Printing with 7900) pointing to http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/7900-9900.shtml which discusses the fact that the printer's color space exceeds aRGB in places. In reference to getting the most out of the printer, here is a quote lifted from that article, which I think was written by the site publisher, Michael H. Reichmann:

"This means, for example, ensuring that files are in the widest possible colour space, ie: ProPhoto RGB. If you've been following the advice of some self-proclaimed gurus who preach that Adobe RGB is good enough, ask them what happens to the colours that can now be reproduced by a wide gamut printer and which can not be contained in a space such as Adobe RGB. The answer is, that they fall on the floor, never to be reproduced."

My D700's color space is an almost perfect match for the aRGB space but exceeds it in a couple of minor places. My Epson 3880 with premium glossy photo paper exceeds aRGB as shown in the graphic below where the printer profile is the ghost image.

Click on image to view larger version


The camera's and the printer's color spaces are both completely contained within the ProPhoto RGB color space. I conclude that it will facilitate transfer of the captured image to the paper better than sRGB and aRGB. Further, when I've taken advantage of ProPhoto's larger working space, I can always convert the edited image to whatever another user, such as a commercial printer, may want and that final image is likely to be better than it would have been had it not been processed in ProPhoto, in my opinion.

Rob

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Attachment#1 (jpg file)

sidewinder

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#28. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 27

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Fri 26-Mar-10 02:51 AM

Rob,

Based on what you have written here and what I have read elsehwere on the subject, I believe your opinion regarding ProPhoto RGB to be correct.

By the way, where did you get information on the D700 color space? I would like to get the same information for the D300s.

Scott

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#29. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 28

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Fri 26-Mar-10 03:52 AM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 11:15 AM by Robp

Scott,

NX2 has an undocumented feature in that it creates a temporary ICC profile of the image that it is editing. The profile is modified on-the-fly as edits are made and deleted when the image file is closed. The profile is created in a hidden directory which can be accessed by Unix commands on a MAC. A similar process occurs with Windows. I've described the lengthy exercise required to grab a copy of the profile in an article I've posted on my Nikonians blog but I don't want to publish it yet because I haven't learned how to upload images into the blog.

The camera is attempting to replicate the actual gamut of the image’s original environment which is some subset of visual space. I don’t know how to get that, but the camera will get a modified version of it. The camera gets the original gamut less the limitations of the camera, mainly it's sensor. In other words, it gets as much as it can get of what is actually there. That's what I'm calling the camera's color space. It is interesting to observe that the space is dependent upon the real object of the image (more color and detail dictate a larger profile). It is also varies slightly with edits. In general, however, it is about the same size as Adobe RGB, albeit with a few excursions.

It would be interesting to take pictures of the same scene with several cameras and compare their resultant profiles.

If you or someone else will point me to some usable blog-writing instructions, I'll clean up the mess and open the thing for comments.

Edited to add: I like to credit information when appropriate. I don't know where this ICC/ICM Profile information originated but I discovered it by backtracking through several sites to these two UNIX-centric threads:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/ufraw/forums/forum/434060/topic/1954962
http://blog.crushedredpepper.com/nikon/raw.html

Rob

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KenLPhotos

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#30. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

KenLPhotos Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009
Fri 26-Mar-10 09:26 AM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 09:27 AM by KenLPhotos

I too am a huge fan of Dan Margulis and I use the LAB color space and 16 bit most of the time. Using a wide gamut color space for all editing will get the benefit of working with most colors. Leave the final color space until all editing is complete.

Here are some of Dan's ideas.

http://www.ledet.com/margulis/articles.html

KenL

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There are many 'photographs of beautiful objects' but not so many 'beautiful photographs of objects'.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#31. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 28

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Fri 26-Mar-10 11:34 AM

Scott,

I found a D300 ICM Profile on one of the sites I reference in my edited addition to my other post discussing camera profiles. I use Apple's ColorSync utility to view the profiles and create overlays. I don't know of a similar utility for Windows.

Here is a graphic depicting the D300's color space overlaid on a Ghosted representation of the D700's color space:

Click on image to view larger version


As I would expect, the DX format space is smaller than the FX format space. It appears to be almost completely encompassed by aRGB but edits might push the envelope.

Rob

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Attachment#1 (jpg file)

MstrBones

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#32. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 23

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Fri 26-Mar-10 12:30 PM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 01:59 PM by MstrBones

Rob,

I got my Yorkie to volunteer this morning for having his picture taken with my D200, (settings RAW, uncompressed, Nikon Adobe RGB color space set as default. Other settings...
1. Tone Compensation - Normal
2. Saturation - Normal

Since he was moving around, I had to bump my ISO to stay with him.
Exposure settings
ISO 640
1/40th second
f/4.5

Once in NX2...

I applied D lighting with the following settings...
Best quality
Shadow - 30
Highlight - 100
Color Boost - 0

Then I set the color space to Adobe, then ProPhoto, making Tiff files along the way to bring up in CS2.

Finally, in CS2, tiling the images, and checking the "gamut warning" for both images, I applied exactly the same curve layer.

Shadows - from 64 to 44
Highlights - 192 to 216

Adobe RGB stayed within gamut
ProPhoto wandered off into the weeds.

In case you are wondering, I set both images to luminosity. When set to "Normal", ProPhoto was even worse for crawling out of gamut.

I think it helps to keep the Adobe Photoshop "gamut warning" setting in context. It is talking about out of gamut for that particular color space and regardless of what happens afterwards, including printing, the image is degraded.

While I might not be the authority that you are seeking on this, I believe I am a competent photographer with pretty fair skills and awareness of how easy it is to degrade an image with poor editing techniques, which was not the case here. In fact, simple, nonextreme, standard edits caused problems in one color space that would destroy fine detail, while the exact same edit in another color space maintained the fine detail. It is also apparent from the pre-curve images, that ProPhoto looked virtually identical to the Adobe color space image.

Image 1- Adobe
Image 2 - ProPhoto
Image 3 - Gamut warning after curve adjustment

Just my two cents,






Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version



Click on image to view larger version


Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)
Attachment#3 (jpg file)

""

nwcs

Knoxville, US
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#33. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Fri 26-Mar-10 12:42 PM

I already commented once on the thread but all the further discussion has made me think a bit about all the wedding and sports photographers who make good money shooting jpeg straight from the camera. In fact, a lot of the working pros I know stay in sRGB and keep to a simplified process on the back end. Heck, even Matt Kloskowski and Scott Kelby have written that a lot of their post processing is done in 8 bit sRGB from raw files except when they have something very special they're trying to accomplish.

So it has led me to ask which audiences are particularly concerned about the perceived/real gains made by the larger color space. Is it the hobbyist? fine art people? working photoshop professionals, pro photographers?

MstrBones

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#34. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 26

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Fri 26-Mar-10 01:11 PM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 01:57 PM by MstrBones

Pete,

First, an apology for my brusque reply earlier. You actually hit on some areas that are quite valid. My concern is about controlling the gamut of ProPhoto RGB during editing.

Again, apologies. My second reply to Rob is my attempt to clarify my point.

Regards,

""

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#35. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 32

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Fri 26-Mar-10 02:37 PM

Thank you for this response David. It's well presented and will contribute to my education as I digest the information. I need to do some more investigation!

Meanwhile, what are your thoughts on this issue? What do you think causes the out-of-gamut areas exhibited by ProPhoto? It is contrary to my thinking that a larger working color space would not more easily contain the gamut presented by the camera's and printer's color spaces.

My first thought is that an image's colors are mapped to different specific colors in aRGB and ppRGB. Since the ppRGB color space is larger, it will (may) contain a more accurate replication of the image captured by the camera; however, since aRGB and the output color space (CMYK?) are closer in size, colors contained in the aRGB color space are likely to more closely match the colors available in the output color space. Obviously, I think the out-of-gamut warning indicates the mismatch. I'm not sure that a mismatch may not result in a better approximation of the original.

So, the question is: Do mismatched colors derived from a more accurate representation of the original image provide a better final rendition of the image, or does the final image benefit from better matched colors?

Or, is this entire conjecture flawed?

Rob

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MstrBones

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#36. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 35

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Fri 26-Mar-10 04:27 PM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 04:43 PM by MstrBones

Rob,

Ok, this is just a suspicion, so bear with me on my conjecture. I have wondered before why Nikon limits cameras to two in-camera color spaces, both of which don't go as deep into the red as ppRGB.

So a few thoughts.

1. Sensors are sensitive to IR, and that differs considerably from one sensor to the next, but they all have IR filters to manage, (filter) that part of the color spectrum. There is a limit to that filtering, however, or the reds won't come through properly in the bayer filter, (in other words, I suspect the red pixels will have their exposure values effected). Now, if you read these forums much, one very common complaint is red channel blow out, (rarely are the reds really blown, the camera is just set with too high a saturation level). I have documented this in other posts over the years where careful adjustment of RAW images fully recovers the detail of the red channel, mostly through reducing saturation and lowering luminance values).

2. ppRGB has a wider selection of colors in the reds for more quickly driving over-saturation. You might have noticed in my image, Max's beard is sort of a blondish red and that is where the out of gamut came from when I applied the curve.

There has also been a train of though floating around that ppRGB could help recover some highlights in sunset shots, (like magentas, purples, reds, etc). My suspicion on that is more of above and that those color values that are calculated against the luminance values in that color space are color inaccurate, (say for instance the red is gone, but the green and blue hung in there). This is just a guess on my part, but image fixes of this type from trying a color space swap typically look wrong to my eye.

Once again, just my two cents,

""

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#37. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 33

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Fri 26-Mar-10 04:30 PM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 04:33 PM by Robp

You should get a mixed bag of answers. Jeff Schewe and Eric Chan both say they work in ProPhoto and they are unbelievably successful in any of your categories.

I don't think the audience categories you present are particularly associated with working color spaces. I think that anyone chooses a working color space based upon his needs, experience, exposure to prior advice and his intellectual curiosity. His choice is inviolate; after all, it's his choice. The guys who are making a living shooting anything know what they need and want. If they are happily making a living shooting sRGB and producing JPEGS, I think that is great.

Some of us (I'm bad about this) proselytize about the benefits of a particular space; that's because I think others may benefit from my research and I enjoy the learning process which is enhanced by the feedback I get. Speaking of feedback, I can't wait to look into CIELAB now that Bob, Pete, and Ken have introduced me to it.

Rob

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#38. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 37

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Fri 26-Mar-10 05:30 PM

I had asked Nikon last night about using Lab Space in NX2. The response I got was strange I thought, as it reminded me that the camera gives me two choices of sRGB and aRGB and that once I processed the NEF I Was free to assign any color space to the image.

Yet NX2 offers many more color spaces as standard selections including Wide RGB which if you look at the plot in the appendix for the NX2 manual is pretty inclusive. I don't know how that space stacks up to Pro Photo RGB. I was going to try and load Lab into NX2, but strangely could not find it in the color driver list on my windows machines, even though it exists in my CS4 flow. I will have to search to find out where it is stored so i can try loading it in NX2.

To add to the latest comments I think you have to look at wide gamut issues in two ways. First as an editing space where they clearly have both advantages and disadvantages in that they allow better graduations in color but could also leave you with an unprintable image as David has shown. For future proofing a wide gamut is clearly superior, but for current output, you need to be aware of the problems you can produce if you are in the part of the gamut that is not supported by any output device.

As has also been pointed out here, inkjets are producing colors outside of aRGB yet print presses are still working in CYMK. So the problem of getting correct color in prints is not a new issue. As I stated before Margulis covers this in depth in his books, and as far as I am concerned he is the Master in the color management and correction field, far above anyone else.

So my thoughts are this, if you want the best future profing and also the widest gamut for editing, why stop at ProPhoto RGB? Just use Lab, it covers the entire human range and if you are using Photoshop at least the color space is just a click away once outside RAW. So if you use NX2 for your flow, you can move a TIFF into Photoshop to edit in Lab, where you can take full advantage of its features.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

nwcs

Knoxville, US
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#39. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 38

nwcs Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Registered since 15th Jan 2006
Fri 26-Mar-10 07:37 PM

When I think of future-proofing, I tend to think that's just keeping the NEF and reprocessing it again at a future time. But that may also be because I don't do much to the pictures in post beyond simpler adjustments. I can definitely see some advantages for working Photoshop people who save more complex work and variations. That's really the origin of my question. Which audiences most benefit from the nuances of color spaces.

MstrBones

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#40. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 38

MstrBones Silver Member Nikonian since 06th Dec 2005
Fri 26-Mar-10 09:03 PM

>Yet NX2 offers many more color spaces as standard selections

Bob,

It certainly does, though I truly suspect the only ones fully tested in the development of a new camera are sRGB and Adobe RGB, (in fact, you have probably noticed that there is actually a Nikon Adobe RGB in NX 2!).

Of course, the nice thing about a RAW image is that you can swap color spaces at will, but my own experience has shown not all are worth spending a lot of extra time with.

Regards,

""

robsb

San Jose, US
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#41. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 39

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Fri 26-Mar-10 10:08 PM

Neil of course you are right that the NEF is the ultimate future proof file, especially since you can change the color profile at will. This actually makes an argument for using NX2 as you can stay in RAW longer. So if you are not making a lot of changes your NEF in NX2 will include all the edit steps and the total original file including camera settings, which you can revisit in the future. The color space really relates to your output capabilities and I think is more of an issue for TIF files and scanned film/positive images. For this is where the future proofing really applies.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

robsb

San Jose, US
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#42. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 40

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Fri 26-Mar-10 10:13 PM | edited Fri 26-Mar-10 10:16 PM by robsb

David I do think the wider gamuts have value as long as you work carefully and you are trying to work with colors that don't produce well in aRGB. You still have to make sure they are not out of gamut for your output device just as you have to do with soft proofing now with aRGB and a photolab. If you are working in photoshop, there is a clear advantage to working in Lab space at least for the tools that work there. I would love the ability for Lab in NX.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

sidewinder

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#43. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 42

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Fri 26-Mar-10 11:14 PM

Bob,

Look here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=34929

and here:

http://www.colorxact.net/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,26/Itemid,33

I would think the ECI-RGB V2 ICC profile would be what you are looking for.

Scott

robsb

San Jose, US
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#44. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 43

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 27-Mar-10 02:21 AM

Scott thanks for the interesting links, but I don't think ECI-RGB V2 is what I am looking for. The L* based version of Pro Photo may be,but I will keep researching a way to use Lab as a working spce in Nx2.I can already do so in Photoshop. I recently bought an Epson V700 Photo and just upgraded the bundled Silverfast SW to the IT8 multi scan calibration version, thaty uses targets to calibrtate the scanner for different types of media. I will do a calibrtation assoon as I return from my trip next week. So all ofthis discussion of Color Management for the D700 is also useful in my quest for a full calibrated system including printer. I have a Color Munki to do the monitor and the printer together and the calibrated scanner will be the last piece.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

elec164

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#45. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 37

elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009
Sat 27-Mar-10 02:46 AM

>Speaking of
>feedback, I can't wait to look into CIELAB now that Bob, Pete,
>and Ken have introduced me to it.
>
>Rob

Actually Rob you may be using CIELAB at times without even knowing it.

If I understood that section of ‘Color Management’ correctly according to ICC specifications most editing programs will use CIELAB or CIEXYZ as the PCS (profile connection space) being that they are device independent where as RGB or CMYK models are device specific.

Also Bob just reminded me of a tutorial that I read on the site of the local camera store that gave instructions of using CIELAB for sharpening. You can apply much more sharpening to the lightness channel without artifacts then you could with USM.

Pete

Pete

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elec164

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#46. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 32

elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009
Sat 27-Mar-10 03:43 AM

Really cute pup David!!

Someone correct me if I am in error, but isn’t the gamut warning dependant on the output profile for proofing. Reason I asked is that I was curious about David’s examples and did some testing on my own.

The image supplied is contains the same ProPhotoRGB image that was converted in ACR. I also did an aRGB and sRGB version. They were all developed with the same settings in ACR except for the choice of color space. Neither the aRGB nor sRGB showed any gamut warning.

But more important the two images here are the ProPhoto versions. The difference is the paper type. The one showing gamut warning would be using my HP Photosmart 8250 with HP Advanced Photo paper. The other I switched to HP Premium Plus Photo paper. So if I understand what I am learning about this color management stuff is that the Premium Plus paper with this printer and ink set has a gamut wider then the Advanced paper that was able to avail itself of the ProPhoto’s wider gamut.

Click on image to view larger version


One thing I wasn’t prepared for was when I printed all three versions. The ppRGB and aRGB printed pretty much the same with the ppRGB seeming to be a bit better (very subtle difference but better). The sRGB on the other hand was much darker overall. I will have to print the sRGB again to make sure it was not user error. Anyone got any idea why the sRGB would look so different barring user error? The all looked the same on screen in CS3, that really has me puzzled.

Am I getting this straight or do I need to re-read sections of the book.

Pete






Attachment#1 (jpg file)

Pete

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KenLPhotos

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#47. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 45

KenLPhotos Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009
Sat 27-Mar-10 09:27 AM

I bought 'nik Sharpener Pro' and guess what? It doesn't work in LAB because it changes other color spaces to LAB to do the sharpening! I was really disappointed.

KenL

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There are many 'photographs of beautiful objects' but not so many 'beautiful photographs of objects'.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#48. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 45

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sat 27-Mar-10 02:01 PM

Hi Pete, Back to our old research days, eh.

I find these "digressions" incredibly interesting, For instance, I thought I had seen a Nikon LAB profile in one of my directories so I chased it down preparing to tell Bob that it was available for use with NX2. It was in the directory that NX2 uses for its Preference selections but doesn't show up there. I copied the profile to my user directory that also shows up in NX2 (and CS4) and it still didn't show. So I pulled it up in ColorSync and it shows as a very large rectilinear color space.

I think this might confirm that NX2 passes the input RGB profile through LAB as a connection profile space to the output profile just as you suggest. Its not available for direct use, however.

ColorSync also shows Generic LAB and NIkon LAB to be identical and Nikon CIE RGB to be much smaller.

The need to read is really beginning to pile up!!!

Your other post with that handsome shepherd replicates what I have seen. Your observations about the printer/paper selection are correct. I can pull up graphic displays of all of the paper ICC profiles that I have and can see major differences between things like matte vs. glossy paper and minor differences between almost all of the papers.


Rob

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#49. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 45

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 27-Mar-10 09:27 PM | edited Sat 27-Mar-10 09:28 PM by robsb

NX2 uses a form of Lab sharpening. As I have had time to reflect on what I am wishing for in NX, I really don't want Lab as my main work space as most likely all my favorite Nik filters would not work in Lab in NX2 and in photoshop there are a bunch of tools that don't work in Lab either, but that didn't stop me from using Lab anyway. So for me I would want the ability to go to Lab space when I wanted and return to an RGB space in NX, just like I do in Photoshop.

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#50. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 47

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 27-Mar-10 09:31 PM | edited Sat 27-Mar-10 09:35 PM by robsb

See my comment above about the use of filters meant for RGB space. I don't have Nik Sharpener and since NX2 sharpens in a Lab like space, I usually just use multiple USM tricks or use Nik Pro contrast filter which is a form of Hi Pass sharpening.

Bob Baldassano
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robsb

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#51. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 48

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 27-Mar-10 09:50 PM

Since Lab(as I understand this is the correct way to refer to the profile or even L*a*b)is a standard, i would expect Generic Lab and Nikon Lab to be the same. Nikon lists a number of profiles that lead in with the Nikon name, but they are exactly what you also have in Adobe. Very strange that they should hide the space. I guess since most people never go into Lab,only saw it mentioned by the Photoshop guys in the past 2 years and then only for a few tricks, it may be why it is hidden. The best book out there on Lab is Margulis's book. His books are NOT cookbooks like Scott Kelby's. They go into great depth on theory and show you amazing things that I have never seen in any other books, except in one case where Kelby copied one of Dan's sharpening techniques for faces with full attribution to Margulis. I know if more photographers were aware of Lab's power, they wold use it. It is frustrating that Lab is used in Photoshop and most likely NX2 and does not show up as a copyable color profile that can be used as a working space in NX2 like Photoshop.

Bob Baldassano
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Robp

Gainesville, US
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#52. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 51

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sun 28-Mar-10 02:36 AM

Bob,

I know nothing about editing in LAB space and had not registered hearing of Dan Margulis until now, but this sounds interesting. I tried to find some information on him and stumbled on http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19877 which makes his sharpening techniques sound pretty controversial. This URL points to a long thread which winds up with a pretty negative quote attributed to Jeff Schewe. Is sharpening just an insignificant part of his overall process?

I note also that he has published a number of books. Which one do you recommend as the next "time sink" I should jump into?

Thanks,

Rob

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#53. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 52

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 28-Mar-10 03:49 AM

I know nothing about Jeff Schewe, and Andrew Rodney's tone offends me. What is true is Dan was an early inductee to the Photoshop hall of fame. He does dwell on fixing impossible images and he does it with the tools in Photoshop. It is true that his earlier books do not address RAW and that he was not completely sure of its benefits. His books are not cookbooks on how to use the latest version of Photoshop, but detailed dissertations with photo examples on the why and how of doing color correction. He has had an on line group for years that discuss color management and correction. He is a "get into the guts guy". If you are a slider type person who does not want to know why you are doing something Dan is not for you. But for me,after I went through the usual cookbook Photoshop books, I stumbled upon Dan and the lights went on. The particular example of using the K channel was an example to sharpen a dull un-contrasty image of a statue. It did the job. I thought most of the people who were commenting on the trick had no idea what they were talking about.

His classic book is Photoshop Professional, Version 5 being the latest. The second book which is a must read is his Lab book. I am traveling, so can't look at the exact title. I have learned more from reading these two books than any other post processing books combined. As you can tell I am a huge fan. When he published his Lab book, it was so revolutionary that Scott Kelby raved about it. It is a more accessible book than his Professional Photoshop series.

While he explains all reasons you do things, he gives you good general practices for processing any type of image starting with a review of the image to determine what needs to be fixed and how you might proceed to fix it. While some of the most difficult images he has used in his books do take many steps, he also shows how to do routine fixes in less than a few minutes with startling results.

Many of the techniques I learned from him, I have found many people who have had extensive training in Photoshop, knew nothing about them.

So do investigate Dan's books and if you don't agree, than you will know not to trust my opinion again.

Bob Baldassano
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KenLPhotos

Stewartstown, US
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#54. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 53

KenLPhotos Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009
Sun 28-Mar-10 09:53 AM

The Dan Margulis Lab book is "Photoshop LAB Color: The Canyon Conundrum and Other Adventures in the Most Powerful Colorspace".

http://www.amazon.com/Photoshop-LAB-Color-Adventures-Colorspace/dp/0321356780

It is a masterpiece that I have read cover to cover three times, learning more stuff each time. The first chapter is worth the cost of the book.

KenL

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There are many 'photographs of beautiful objects' but not so many 'beautiful photographs of objects'.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#55. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 53

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sun 28-Mar-10 02:08 PM

Bob,

My guess is that I will agree but even if I don't I'd still trust your opinions based upon a fairly lengthy observation of them. From a while back, ADL was a good example of my agreement, currently Andrew Rodney's offensive tone is another.

Jeff Schewe co-authored a number of books with Bruce Fraser generally titiled "Real World...". I found their book "Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS4" and their article "A Color Managed Raw Workflow" to be very helpful.

Jeff and Bruce are also Photoshop Hall of Famers along with Dan Margulis. Maybe this means that their thoughts are not mutually exclusive. Or, as is being hammered into me, there are several good ways of doing something.

I'm off to buy "Photoshop Professional, Version 5" and the "Canyon Conundrum" book (thanks, Ken).

Rob

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Robp

Gainesville, US
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#56. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 54

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sun 28-Mar-10 02:09 PM

Thank you Ken. I'll get the book.

Rob

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rrweather

Suisun City, US
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#57. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 27

rrweather Registered since 18th Apr 2002
Sun 28-Mar-10 02:16 PM

Thanks for the reply Rob. I keep forgetting to look further up in the post to see various responses. I am used to other forums that add all new content to the bottom.

I think I understand this stuff on a very basic level. Seeing the color space images posted helps. I guess the key is each user has to decide what color space matches the equipment they're using. For me, without a printer and using a monitor with sRGB output, I don't know that I would benefit from using anything other than sRGB because I would be limited by the monitor. If I upload something to have printed, I wouldn't benefit from using another color space unless the printer offered something beyond sRGB. If I upgraded my monitor to a wide-gamut version, then it would benefit me to use aRGB. If I bought a printer that exceeded the sRGB color space, then I would obviously benefit from something else.

If I am understanding this correctly, the chosen color space should encompass the full capabilities of the hardware a person uses. For me, since none of my hardware can display (or print) anything beyond sRGB, is there a reason to use anything else? I think that is where I am most confused. If I can't see anything beyond sRGB on my monitor, how would I use anything else effectively? Even if I can print beyond sRGB, I can't edit the photos and know what the finished (printed) product will look like on my monitor since the monitor is the limiting factor. Likewise, if my monitor was wide-gamut but my printer was not, what I saw on my monitor would not match what printed. I assume that everything has to have the same capabilities in order to benefit.

Perhaps I am missing something. I am going to re-read through the links posted to make sure I didn't miss a key concept. Thanks for the help with the questions from a new guy.

Randy

C-5 Eng

sidewinder

US
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#58. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 56

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Sun 28-Mar-10 03:54 PM

Dan Margulis is now often viewed as a crackpot in the Adobe/PS community. Yes, he did contribute more than useful stuff years back. But that seems to have changed. Bruce Lindbloom's web site does a pretty decent job of documenting some of the folly.

Jeff Schewe's and Andrew Rodney's tone represents years of disgust having to deal with Margulis's crazy ideas that people seem to take as gospel just because of Margulis's history.

Margulis's 16-bit challenge and his views on sharpening using the black channel derived from a CMYK conversion are examples of this.

Jeff Schewe advocating working in ProPhoto RGB space until ready for output makes perfect sense for anyone that understands the output devices are able to print colors that were captured in the original image AND are lost when working in sRBG or Adobe RGB.

Scott

robsb

San Jose, US
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#59. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 54

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 28-Mar-10 07:42 PM

Thanks Ken, I had a senior moment and could not remember the title, but like you my copy is well used.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

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Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

robsb

San Jose, US
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#60. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 58

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 28-Mar-10 08:36 PM

Scott:

I am not familiar with the latest controversy about Dan, but I cannot think of one controversial issue in either Photoshop Professional or the Lab book. I do not think his use of the K channel in the example he had in his book as crazy, but as brilliant. Dan makes use of channels in a lot of his techniques and he also advocates use of false profiles where necessary to make a correction. He argues why limit yourself to the RGB space when you also have CYMK and Lab to steal channels from and apply them to the RGB image to correct faults.

Probably the most recognized people in the Adobe community today are Scott Kelby and his staff. Yet I have never heard one bad word about Dan out of Kelby's mouth.

I like Dan's books because they are not cook books, nor are they a regurgitation of the latest Photoshop manual with mindless move this slider here steps. Those kinds of books are great if you are starting out in post processing or are using Photoshop for the first time. His books delve into areas that the others don't. I am a firm believer in cherry picking ideas that work from many sources. I learned a lot from Martin Evening and Deke McClellan and even Scott Kelby, but I got the most insight and useful stuff from Dan's books. He may be currently behind the times, but I don't believe his books are. While I don't use Photoshop as much now that I have NX2, I am glad I have read both of the books I have mentioned because of the insight they have given me. Dan's methods do not rely on a single color space and many of his methods can be used in other processing tools, although they have greater use in Photoshop.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

robsb

San Jose, US
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#61. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 30

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 28-Mar-10 09:05 PM

Ken thanks for the link. I did not realize dan published a 6th version of Professional photoshop as in #5 he said it was going to be the last edition.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

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Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

robsb

San Jose, US
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#62. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 55

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 28-Mar-10 09:22 PM

As Ken's link shows I am behind the times and Phogtoshop Professional is now in the 6th edition. In #5, he said it was his last version. I do not know what new stuff he added. He had taken stuff out from 4 to 5 but allowed you to download the deleted stuff. I think I will have to look into #6.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

robsb

San Jose, US
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#63. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 55

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 28-Mar-10 09:37 PM

"Jeff and Bruce are also Photoshop Hall of Famers along with Dan Margulis. Maybe this means that their thoughts are not mutually exclusive. Or, as is being hammered into me, there are several good ways of doing something."

You and i think alike. There are always several good ways to do things. We have to open our eyes to see, and being exposed to what is behind what we do is the key to new insights. In today's implementation of post processing, it is all about isolating the user from the hard stuff by giving them sliders, auto tools and fancy filters with no need to understand what is going on. You just follow steps 1 through 10 as outlined in some boring cook book. If you know not only how but why and also how to do stuff with the basic tools in Photoshop or other PP SW, you can extend that knowledge to create new methods on your own. It is all about getting the best image from what you have to work with. Dan's books are full of bizarre images that most of us would throw away as hopeless, yet he fixes them and explains things like how to figure out what a color should be in an image when you were not even there to take it. He explains how to remove color casts, change colors of things like cars, improve the texture of fur, improve sharpening of faces, cut through haze after the image is captured,restore old photos, etc.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#64. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 57

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Mon 29-Mar-10 12:50 PM

Randy,

>For me, since none of my hardware can display (or print) anything beyond sRGB, is there a reason to use anything else?<

Your choice of the word "beyond" actually provides a backhanded hint. While you will not be able to see colors on your monitor or prints that are outside of their gamuts under any circumstance, you will ONLY be able to see ALL colors that were in your original image if you preserve them in a color space that totally encompasses the image.

Note that colors are not just moved from one color space to another, they are mapped. This means that a color is reproduced so as to "perceptually" match another as closely as possible within the constraints of the medium. "Projected" colors that we see on a monitor are not at all identical to "reflected" colors we see on a print; nevertheless they can "appear" to be (nearly) identical.

It is likely that you are actually routing your work along a path of color spaces that branches near the end to arrive at the final color space:

Object in Original Environment -> Image in Camera or Scanner -> Working Profile in Editor -> Intermediate Mapping Profile in Editor -> Monitor's color space -> Your Viewing Environment

-- OR --

Object in Original Environment -> Image in Camera or Scanner -> Working Profile in Editor -> Intermediate Mapping Profile in Editor -> Printer's Color Space -> Print in your Viewing Environment

The endpoint color spaces; i.e., the Original Environment color space and the Display Environment color space, are potentially huge and encompass the entire visual gamut. In reality, they are limited by the quality and intensity of light but are still huge relative to the intermediate "processing" color spaces.

The Camera is attempting to capture everything in the Original Environment but is severely limited by its components, primarily the photosensors. Even so, its color space is larger than sRGB. Here is a graphic display of the sRGB profile overlaid on a D700's ghosted color space profile:

Click on image to view larger version


So, if you want to map ALL of your captured image to your monitor or print, you should not throw away the parts outside of your first import space which is the working profile in your editor. Editors (all that I know of like NX2 and CS4) are color-aware and will display the image in the color space into which it is mapped.

A slight aside here; you might display your image in a browser without going to an editor. The browser must be color-aware to correctly map the colors from another color space into sRGB for the monitor. Safari (available for both MAC and Windows) is color-aware. Explorer (Windows) was not in the past but may be now; codecs (plug-in mapping applications, I think) are available to enable correct viewing of various color spaces.

A monitor operates in the sRGB color space but will very nicely display the MAPPED colors from other color spaces like aRGB and ProPhoto RGB. Look at the examples shown at http://diglloyd.com/articles/ComputersAndPhotography/WebBrowserColor.html.

aRGB is very close to the size of the D700's, and most printers', color space, but not identical. Some will argue that you will not lose much using aRGB and that simplifies color management. Since you can always convert to another color space if a third party (a print service) wants it, why waste anything? Additionally, technology will provide equipment capable of displaying larger gamuts; see comments elsewhere in this thread about "future proofing".

I think that retaining as much color and detail as possible throughout the image processing activity is desirable and that use of a large color space furthers that goal.

Rob

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Attachment#1 (jpg file)

rrweather

Suisun City, US
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#65. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 64

rrweather Registered since 18th Apr 2002
Mon 29-Mar-10 09:49 PM

Rob,

Thank you for the response--very insightful. I think the one part about all of this that I don't fully understand is where my hardware/software fits in. Right now, I have a D700, which you mentioned. I understand its capabilities as compared to aRGB, sRGB, and ProPhoto RGB. I also have a MB Pro. I am currently shopping for a new monitor to use with the laptop. As I understand it, a wide-gamut monitor would display a wider range than a standard sRGB monitor. A wide-gamut display, will not display much (if anything) beyond aRGB, which is still better than I am able to achieve with my current laptop and standard monitor. For software, I use LR2 right now. As I understand software, LR2 uses either ProPhoto RGB or something equivalent (I've read claims of both online). At the moment, I do not own a printer. Many of the printing sites I've visited claim to use sRGB. I understand that if I were to upload to their sites for printing, I would want to convert to sRGB before uploading to help me get what I want from the printer.

Big picture, am I limiting myself by using the hardware/software I am currently using? I think I am getting the idea that a benefit of ProPhoto is to not lose information that exists just because you can't display it on your monitor or print it. I guess my question is, am I losing this information with the hardware/software I have. I know I am not seeing beyond sRGB unless I get a wide-gamut monitor.

Sorry for the questions. You've been helpful. I am also going to order one of the books mentioned because I find this interesting. Thanks for the help.

Randy

C-5 Eng

Robp

Gainesville, US
951 posts

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#66. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 65

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Tue 30-Mar-10 02:19 AM | edited Tue 30-Mar-10 02:21 AM by Robp

Randy,

>Big picture, am I limiting myself by using the hardware/software I am currently using?<

Ok, here you're asking for opinion so any responses must be understood as corrupted by my personal bias; therefor, take this with a grain of salt. Be sure to solicit other's opinions and apply your own judgement.

1. Your camera is as good as it gets.

2. Your MACbook Pro already has a very good color display, it's just a little small. It doesn't make sense to me to get another display unless it's a lot bigger and better; that will cost as much as a 27" iMAC, which is what I finally purchased. If that, plus whatever else you want, is not in your budget I'd get the "whatever else". With regards to displaying a lot more (color and detail, not size) you'd have to go to something like an Eizo which I doubt that I could appreciate as being that much better. At that level, you'd need to be a serious pro with a highly critical eye and you'd probably have a controlled and constant lighting environment using Solux lamps and a light hood over the monitor (not my style).

You are, understandably, concerned with what you are not seeing beyond sRGB. The MUCH more important issue is what you are seeing within that space. Calibrate your monitor and you will then be matched to a "standard" which is used by other professionals. What you will find is a moderate improvement in color which will likely be much less than you imagined and be closer than you imagine to an Eizo (remember, this is my opinion). Because you are matched to a standard you then have a right to expect your prints to be pretty close to your displayed image (lots of luck - this is where you are driven to paying for custom print services or DIY).

3. I have played with Lightroom 3 beta some, but not enough to offer decent commentary. I don't think that you have complete control of the profile settings which you could imbed in your edited file for transmission to a commercial printer which might limit what they could do for you (this would apply only to a custom print service, others, as you noted, only want an sRGB profile). I have printed from LR3 using its color management and specifying my specific printer/ink/paper profile and it works great - identical to NX2 and CS4.

So... my answer is that you are not significantly limiting yourself with your current hardware/software assemblage and, if you shoot 14-bit RAW and save the originals, you are not losing any information; except in your prints.

For now, read like crazy (i find the more I know the less I know). In the future, think about a ColorMunki, or similar, and a printer.

Don't be "sorry for the questions"! They help us understand things better and allow us to satisfy some part of the debt we incurred when we asked our questions.

Rob

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rrweather

Suisun City, US
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#67. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 66

rrweather Registered since 18th Apr 2002
Tue 30-Mar-10 09:30 AM

Thanks Rob. I really appreciate the information, even if it is "corrupted!" This stuff is very interesting. I just re-read a review on a monitor in Shutterbug. I was surprised to see how often the color profile was mentioned. Even more surprising was the fact that I read the article two weeks ago and had no clue about what the hell color spaces were; yet, I thought I understood what the reviewer was talking about. Now the article makes more sense. Thanks again.

Randy

C-5 Eng

dmitrychernyshev

Moscow, RU
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#68. "RE: D700 color space sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB" | In response to Reply # 3

dmitrychernyshev Registered since 02nd Feb 2010
Tue 30-Mar-10 05:20 PM

Hi Scott,

The Prophoto.icm is not, strictly speaking, a codec, but a color space "mapping" file.

I do not know about Macintosh, but on Windows PC's this color space file can be found here:
C:\WINDOWS\system32\spool\drivers\color\Prophoto.icm

It is, actually, a standard "color driver" supplied within Windows and there is no need to download it from an external source.

Side note: User of View NX and Capture NX2 (same as Photoshop) can choose the Prophoto.icm to be a default color space for the software.

As far I as understand, for NEF(RAW) it is not important what in-camera color space we use. That is because if we set our software (Photoshop or View NX, or Capture NX2) to use Prophoto.icm instead of a color space "embedded in-camera", then the image will be opened up with Prophoto.icm and any "embedded in-camera" color space will simply be omitted.

All the Best,
Dmitry

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dmitrychernyshev

Moscow, RU
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#69. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

dmitrychernyshev Registered since 02nd Feb 2010
Thu 01-Apr-10 02:18 PM

For those Windows (XP and later) and Capture NX2 users, who is just starting with color management...

Good practical web site, which talks about "How To":
color profiles
monitors
scanners
printers
cameras

http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/nikon-capture-nx-color-management.html

To see more content - scroll down to the bottom of the page - there is a list of articles.
Or from the homepage GoTo PhotoTips -> Archives

Dmitry

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#70. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Fri 02-Apr-10 10:19 PM

After reading and contributing to this thread over the past few weeks, I was setting up the new SilverFast AI Studio IT8 SW I purchased for my Epson V700 Photo scanner and was presented with a section where I could select the color profile for my scan or just not assign one. That got me to thinking about what has been discussed here. So I have now decided I am going to try using Pro Photo as my main working color space both in Photoshop CS4 Extended and also in Capture NX2. For scans from my V700, I intend to assign the CIE LAB space to the scan as it will give me the widest gamut and I intend to scan at 48 bit color and 3200 ppi. My other option is to scan 48 bit HDR, but then that gives me a straight RAW file with no color space also and precludes me from using any of the edit tools in SilverFast, and these tools happen to be extensive. By scanning and assigning LAB, my original scans will have the fullest range of color and will become masters similar to how I use NEF's from my camera. I can then work in LAB in Photoshop and if necessary drop the file into the Pro Photo space before I finally move output to JPEG and sRGB. For my digital output from my camera, I will take the aRGB files produced by the camera into the Pro Photo space as I still have not figured a way to use LAB in Capture NX2 as a working space. Does this make sense?

Bob Baldassano
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sidewinder

US
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#71. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 70

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Fri 02-Apr-10 10:46 PM

>For my digital output from my camera, I will take the aRGB files produced by the camera into the Pro Photo space as I still
>have not figured a way to use LAB in Capture NX2 as a working space. Does this make sense?

Bob,

If you are shooting RAW, your camera is not producing Adobe RGB or sRGB files. Well, the embedded JPEG in the NEF file is one of those, but that is of no consequence here.

Scott

robsb

San Jose, US
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#72. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 71

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 03-Apr-10 12:05 AM

Of course you are correct, but right now my preferred color space in both Photoshop and NX2 is set to aRGB, so when I open a RAW file it is tagged as aRGB.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

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Robp

Gainesville, US
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#73. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 70

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 03:53 AM

Bob, introduction of LAB space moved this discussion of COLOR space into OUTER space relative to MY space but I'm interested and trying to learn. Your proposal to use large color spaces, in general, makes sense to me.

Using ColorSync on a MAC, I note that "Generic LAB and Nikon LAB" are identical, very large, rectangular color spaces which I'm sure are the device-independent "Profile Connection Spaces" (PCS) used by NX2 and CS4 for mapping between adjacent working or device-dependent color spaces.

CIE RGB is selectable in CS4 as a working color space and is a derivative of LAB.

Here is CIE RGB overlaid on the ghosted Nikon LAB space:

Click on image to view larger version


Here's ProPhoto overlaid on the ghosted Nikon LAB space:
Click on image to view larger version


Here's CIE RGB overlaid on the ghosted ProPhoto space:
Click on image to view larger version


I know that there are numerous color spaces defined by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE) including CIE XYZ, CIE L*ab, etc. Is this CIE RGB color space the same as the LAB space that you are discussing? I note that none of these three color spaces are completely contained within either of the other two. I assume that this is why you want to be able to work in both ProPhoto and CIE and why occasional weird colors are noted in the use of these spaces. Are these assumptions correct?

Rob

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Attachment#1 (jpg file)
Attachment#2 (jpg file)
Attachment#3 (jpg file)

robsb

San Jose, US
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#74. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 73

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 03-Apr-10 04:59 AM

I am puzzled by your Pro photo on Lab space diagram, as Lab is much larger than Pro Photo. If you look at the appendix of the Capture Nx2 manual they show the gamut of LAB and it contains every other color space entirely. Lab is not an RGB space. When you open Lab it does not have RGB channels,it has L and a & b channels. See this link:

http://www.broadhurst-family.co.uk/lefteye/MainPages/Lab.htm

I want to save my film scans in Lab space because it is the widest gamut and device independent. From there I will use Pro Photo in NX2 and in Photoshop when I can't do something in Lab space. I have already tried Pro RGB tonight on camera generated images and had no out of gamut color problems. Careful work will keep you from creating outof gamut colors.

Bob Baldassano
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sidewinder

US
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#75. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 74

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Sat 03-Apr-10 05:27 AM

Bob,

Yes, the CIE LAB color space is larger than ProPhoto RGB. But, it does not encompass the entire ProPhoto RGB color space. Look here:

Click on image to view larger version


Also, the color space graphic above shows the colors in the color space even though they are different types of spaces.

Finally, the appendix in the Capture NX 2 manual does not include ProPhoto RGB in the gamut graph.

Scott
Attachment#1 (jpg file)

robsb

San Jose, US
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#76. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 75

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 03-Apr-10 06:20 AM

ThanksScorr I learned something. I guess when I start scanning old film I will have to look at how using Lab and Pro RGB impact the images. While I have worked extensively inLab, tonight was the first time i worked in Pro RGB in NX2.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#77. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 75

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 12:12 PM

Scott, you are addressing one of my confusions about LAB color spaces. I think you are correctly stating that ProPhoto RGB and CIE LAB are different types of spaces. ProPhoto is a "Working Color Space", CIE LAB is a "Profile Connection Space". I don't think that the CIE LAB space is accessible for editing use.

ColorSync identifies the "ghosted" rectangular space you are showing as "Generic LAB" and "Nikon Lab" (different names, identical space) which I have thought to be the "Profile Connection Space" (PCS) used by NX2 and CS4. ColorSync shows CIE RGB to be a smaller space, still not totally within the PCS, that CS4 uses as a "Working Color Space". Am I reading this stuff incorrectly?

The terms I am using, like PCS, are taken from an excellent article in Photoshop's help library at:

http://www.adobepress.com/articles/article.asp?p=1332853

The point that I'm trying to clarify in my mind is that I think that Bob will not be able to work in the large CIE LAB space but will be able to work in the CIE RGB color space which is not as large as the ProPhoto RGB color space (but still protrudes in a couple of areas).

Am I beginning to understand these relationships?

Rob

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#78. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 77

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sat 03-Apr-10 02:51 PM

Rob, Photoshop allows you to work in Lab space, it is not an RGB space. I have used it for years. I just can't do it in NX2. In Photoshop you just select Mode and then Lab and there you are. Did you check out the Lab link I put in the reply above? The author in the link in your post has made an opinion that Lab space is not intuitive. I think that is nonsense. It is very intuitive and very powerful. You can do things in Lab that you cannot accomplish in any other RGB color space. CIE RGB is NOT Lab. Scott's point was well taken as I was looking at 2 dimensional coverage plots not 3D. I have come to the conclusion that when in RGB use either Pro Photo or aRGB as your working space, but if you want to gain the advantages of Lab you need to work in that space for some of your work flow. I do think that some of the NX2 tools like LCH give you some benefits similar to Lab, but Lab is so easy to use and the results are so stellar that I am surprised that more people don't use it. Of course if authors continue to tell people that it is not intuitive and strange most people won't.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

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Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

KenLPhotos

Stewartstown, US
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#79. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 78

KenLPhotos Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 03:05 PM

I second robsb's comments. I use LAB 99% of the time and cannot get some of the results in any other color space. And once you learn it, it is very intuitive.

Flying an aircraft is not intuitive. Push the throttle in and you stay at the same air speed but climb! Pull the stick back and you stay at the same altitude but slow down! I guess we shouldn't fly. But that may be for another forum.

It may be good that more photographers don't use LAB because the LAB users will always puzzle the non-LAB users with thier results.

KenL

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There are many 'photographs of beautiful objects' but not so many 'beautiful photographs of objects'.

Robp

Gainesville, US
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#80. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 78

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 03:20 PM

Thanks Bob. It's finally beginning to kick in. Although I knew that LAB was not an RGB space, I incorrectly associated CIE RGB with LAB because it's derived from LAB. They are associated but not as I have thought. I've been misleading myself because I only saw CIE RGB available in the Photoshop color space preferences and was not knowledgeable enough to go to Image>Mode>LAB Color.

I see whole new vistas about to open up for me. Dan Margulis' books are due to arrive next week. And don't be mislead by my references to articles that criticize use of LAB color. I'm just grabbing the good stuff therefrom (a lot is good) and withholding judgement on things like LAB color that I know little or nothing about. I definitely know that criticism often indicates lack of understanding; I get lots of criticism for generally choosing to work in ProPhoto rather than aRGB or sRGB. Maybe, next, I can generate more criticism by choosing to play with LAB. Sounds like fun to me!

Rob

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KenLPhotos

Stewartstown, US
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#81. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 80

KenLPhotos Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 04:47 PM

Please keep us updates on what you learn and what you are now able to do. That would be an interesting thread as this one has been.

VIVA Nikonians!

KenL

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There are many 'photographs of beautiful objects' but not so many 'beautiful photographs of objects'.

Cliff09

Salinas, US
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#82. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 81

Cliff09 Registered since 19th Aug 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 07:54 PM

All I can say is Wow!!!! having just spent the better part of the afternoon reading the 80+ responses on this post, I find the phrase, as so well put somewhere in one of the replies "The more I know the less I know" or something like that very much real.

However the conclusion I have reached is ......if you shoot in raw and archive your raw files and process with the color space that best takes advantage of your equipment i.e. monitor, printer etc.. you wont go wrong. Archiving your raw files will allow you to use future advances in technology if and when they become available. Again as some said if I am incorrect please someone slap me down I also love to learn.

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KenLPhotos

Stewartstown, US
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#83. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 82

KenLPhotos Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009
Sat 03-Apr-10 08:33 PM

You Got It!

We should have said it 80 responses ago.

KenL

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There are many 'photographs of beautiful objects' but not so many 'beautiful photographs of objects'.

sidewinder

US
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#84. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 82

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Sat 03-Apr-10 09:07 PM

“The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know.”

-Socrates

sidewinder

US
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#85. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 84

sidewinder Silver Member Nikonian since 05th Jan 2010
Sat 03-Apr-10 09:25 PM

Here is another snippet of text I always try to keep in mind when discussing stuff like this:

"...doubt a little of his own infallibility..."

This is from Benjamin Franklin's speech to the Constitutional Convention in 1787 urging the ratification of the Constitution.

If Ben Franklin can doubt is own infallibility, I have no reason to not do the same. In fact, I am compelled to do so.

This is easier to do on subjects like this of which I know so little. It has served me well because it has allowed me to challenge my own ideas of what is correct and learn much more in the process.

I mention this quote because this is exactly what I have seen in this thread. It's quite refreshing. In other threads on this site, I have seen people refuse to consider that their positions may not be correct.

Scott

dmitrychernyshev

Moscow, RU
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#86. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 80

dmitrychernyshev Registered since 02nd Feb 2010
Sun 04-Apr-10 06:03 AM | edited Sun 04-Apr-10 03:10 PM by dmitrychernyshev

Hi Rob,

Here is something about CIELAB (CIELUV) from CIE:

http://www.cie.co.at/index.php/index.php?i_ca_id=285

I always find reading the base source information helpful.
Why to learn about color space from the commercial book writer? -
It is better to learn from the scientists, and get the "how to in Photoshop" sort of advices from that sharp guy (not to be offended).

In this case (link above) - it is an ISO standard as of 2008 (CIE as of 2007). An "initial space" formed by plotting their experimental "tristimulus values" in XYZ coordinates was "non-uniform" – i.e. had a very unpractical shape.
In 1976 CIE made ~ "parallelepiped" in XYZ by simply de-linearization of system coordinates.

Those "tristimulus values", I guess, are the ligh spectrum diagrams(Is Mr. Kelvin a Nikonian?) recorded/tabulated for the different ligh vave frequencies.

My anther guess is that "tristimulus" term comes from the triangle prism through which the light is (traditionally) being sent to obtain its spectrum. If we vary, say, "brightness" of light and at each brightness (call it luminance if you wish) we record the spectrum diagram, then we can build a 3-D space, which may be or may not be "uniform" in cartesian coordinate system.

The above linked standard provides correlations between the initial space and CIELAB or CIELUV spaces. It follows that CIELAB and CIELUV are correlated also (fully or partly - I do not know). Whatever the parameters (LAB, CUV) of those spaces are - they are correlated to the initial experimental data.

Now I have no idea what to do with spaces that are partly outside of the CIELAB or CIELUV Ha-ha...
And... any RGB thing is, then, not a different animal: coordinates are different only but the light spectrum is still the same.
How to convert coordinates?

Now, if there were any experiments done to obtain the new space - let it be in RGB coordinates, then this space may be "bigger, equal or less" than LAB or LUV (compared in similar coordinates) or simply different in shape.

If I am mistaken - please forgive me (I was just guessing).
Though it is very unlikely...

Just found: http://www.gamutvision.com/docs/gamutvision_equations.html
Check their software too (it includes the http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~gsharma/ciede2000/ciede2000noteCRNA.pdf)

Here is the book (maybe a bit too much calculatins there, but still): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084930900X/ref=ase_normankorenph-20/103-5654565-6501433?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=normankorenph-20


Dmitry



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robsb

San Jose, US
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#87. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 86

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Sun 04-Apr-10 05:33 PM

Dmitry:

some more links, some are easy, some very technical with calculus equations:

http://www.hunterlab.com/appnotes/an04_96a.pdf

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/colper.html

http://www.hunterlab.com/appnotes/an07_96a.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorimetry

http://www.digitalcolour.org/understanding/Tristimulus.htm

http://dba.med.sc.edu/price/irf/Adobe_tg/models/ciexyz.html

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Tristimulus_values

http://www.ph.tn.tudelft.nl/Courses/FIP/noframes/fip-Color.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/tristimulus-values

Bob Baldassano
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"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

dmitrychernyshev

Moscow, RU
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#88. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 87

dmitrychernyshev Registered since 02nd Feb 2010
Sun 04-Apr-10 09:07 PM

Thanks Bob - these are awsome links!

Now we are talking!
Aha.. the tristimulus is about visible spectrum and 3 applicable variables.
I was a bit concerned about it when I wrote my bla-bla above.

Thanks again,
Dmitry

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prophotoman

Oakdale, US
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#89. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 0

prophotoman Registered since 27th Jun 2009
Mon 05-Apr-10 03:46 AM | edited Mon 05-Apr-10 03:54 AM by prophotoman

Of course, what was meant by ProPhoto RGB being the raw camera format I'm sure was that one should shoot in RAW mode whenever contemplating working ProPhoto RGB in Adobe Photoshop. Anyway, there was a time when I had to use a densitometer and sensitometer after processing film. We had a section in some of the photo labs I worked in while in the Navy that looked like a scientific laboratory... mixing beakers, pipettes, and little magnetic mixers (in 1972)! we even had an extremely expensive precision scale that was enclosed in a glass case (to block air current in the lab while weighing) for making photographic chemicals from scratch, Hydroquinone for making developer for example! Yippir, those were the days! Every lab had the big red Photolab Index reference book!

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#90. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 89

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Mon 05-Apr-10 04:22 AM

Yes I remember mixing my own developers, but don't miss it in the least.

Bob Baldassano
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"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

dmitrychernyshev

Moscow, RU
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#91. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 87

dmitrychernyshev Registered since 02nd Feb 2010
Mon 05-Apr-10 10:15 PM

Bob,

Here is the "killer article" by NIST on CIE LAB and LUV(no need to browse the web any more), same as it explains the "tristimulus".
There are good references too - at the bottom.

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~schubert/More-reprints/2000%20Ohno%20(IS&T%20Conference)%20CIE%20fundamentals%20for%20color%20measurements.pdf

From my experience, the majority of non-fundamental information on the web - is just not a quality material.
One should be specially careful with "university" publications.
Oh, I have seen it many times in my practice, but NIST - is NIST.

Now I really know what the tristimulus values are.

And this article is again from http://www.gamutvision.com
I kinda like this site now (not connected, but addicted)

Dmitry

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robsb

San Jose, US
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#92. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 91

robsb Platinum Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his expertise in CNX2 and his always amicable and continuous efforts to help members Laureate Ribbon awarded for winning in the Best of Nikonians 2013 images Photo Contest Donor Ribbon awarded for his enthusiastic and repeated support to the Fundraising Campaign 2014 Donor Ribbon awarded for his generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 23rd Aug 2006
Mon 05-Apr-10 11:42 PM

Dmitry:

thanks for the article. I had started to wade through some of the other links I have posted, and they all cover the same ground at different levels of complexity, most of which is not necessary for us to use color management, but interesting non the less. I too like gamutvision site and there Sw is clearly the Windows version of the Color Space tool on the MAC and it costs $99.

Bob Baldassano
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camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!
Old age is a special gift that very few receive. Be thankful if you get it.

C_F

Anderson, US
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#93. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 90

C_F Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Jan 2008
Mon 12-Apr-10 11:52 AM | edited Mon 12-Apr-10 11:56 AM by C_F

Well, without reading ALL the in depth technical statements above, I thought I just try it out in NX2 - result in switching to ProRGB was (in lack of better words) ,
images 'appeared' to be a little 'fuzzier' & had a 'greenish' tint to them on screen - I didn't try printing as I don't have an adequate printer @ hand. Macbook pro 17" antiglare screen.
Is this result to be expected or do I have to readjust pictures to the new colorspace?
Or as usual, am I missing something obvious?

Ps, pics taken with D300 however D700 IS on order and due in any day now!!!

SpiralDancer

Manassas, US
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#94. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 93

SpiralDancer Gold Member Nikonian since 26th Feb 2009
Mon 12-Apr-10 12:40 PM

I'm very sorry being late to the party. In reading about color spaces, if you are shooting in 14bit RAW on the camera, does the color space really apply to the RAW files. I was always under the impression to maintain the most of your images, you should shoot in RAW and in Lightroom and Photoshop you keep it in ProPhoto. You convert to Adobe RGB or sRGB when you actually ready to save the image to JPEG. I'm I wrong to assume this?

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Robp

Gainesville, US
951 posts

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#95. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 93

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Tue 13-Apr-10 02:10 PM

There are too many variables here to make anything "obvious" so you are not missing "the obvious". Are you saving images in-camera" in RAW, JPEG, or TIFF format? Are you tagging them as sRGB or aRGB? Are you converting the color spaces when you ingest the images from the camera to your editor? You'll just need to sort things out to the point where you can do some "controlled" studies and draw your own conclusions. Be sure that you are comparing different color spaces using the same image; remember, JPEG and TIFF images have in-camera settings like sharpening baked in, whereas RAW images do not.

For example, when you say "switching to ProRGB", what are you switching from and how are you performing the switch?

I have not noticed the problems you mention (fuzzy and tinted) so I tried to replicate what you might have done. I saved images "in-camera" in raw, tagged them as aRGB (this makes no difference unless you tell your editor to use the tagged color space) and ingested them into ProPhoto RGB in NX2. Then I soft-proofed them in NX2 comparing ProRGB to aRGB and sRGB. With any "normal" image I could see no appreciable difference. This would be expected because the monitor's color space is about the same as aRGB so would not have the range of colors that could exist in ProRGB; furthermore, the colors in the editor's color space are mapped into the monitor's RGB color space so that should hide almost all differences except for those that are well outside of the smaller color space.

In order to push the limits of the displays, I used Photoshop to produce a Grainger color chart which contains virtually all visible colors some of which cannot be accurately reproduced in any of the editor's or the monitor's color spaces. The Grainger image appeared to be better represented in ProPhoto (as mapped to the monitor) than aRGB or sRGB. aRGB and sRGB exhibited more black areas where color appeared in ProRGB.

I think this supports the contention that ProPhoto allows retention of more color information than smaller color spaces, but it also points out the limitation imposed on our visual examination of those colors using a monitor.

Mapping (translating) the colors from one space to another can produce some difference in the perceived image. It is possible that mapping of very different colors on either side of an edge in the image could make the image appear less sharp. ProRGB can potentially provide colors closer to the original and those original colors on either side of the edge could be closer to one another than the mapped colors leading to perceived loss of edge detail. This is obviously conjecture and statistically unlikely to occur so often that it would generally be observed but it would explain what you may be seeing. A similar thought process could apply to the tint issue.

A couple of "off the wall" thoughts: Your antiglare screen could induce some fuzziness; I have seen this with antiglare glass on framed photos. It's not bad and is preferable to the glare, at least with the framed photos in some locations. Also, calibrating your monitor may help, particularly with the tint issue. Since you have a MacBook, you can use ColorSync to try enhancing calibration for free. I suggest viewing the calibration images from a distance of about 4 feet. This kind of visual calibration is not quite as good as using something like a ColorMunki but it's not bad.

It's also possible to make some non-complementary selections in ColorSync and your color preferences in NX2. I'd review those settings, particularly the ones in NX2.

Let us know what you discover.

Rob

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Robp

Gainesville, US
951 posts

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#96. "RE: D700 use of sRGB, Adobe RGB and Pro Photo RGB color space" | In response to Reply # 94

Robp Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Oct 2009
Tue 13-Apr-10 03:38 PM

14-bit resolution allows more information (color detail) to be stored than 12-bit with the only downside being larger file sizes and very slightly reduced camera recycle speed when shooting continuous high-speed shots. The selection of an in-camera color space just causes the image file to be tagged with a suggestion as to which color space in which to process the image in an editor, which may have merit when producing JPEG or TIFF images since all in-camera settings are "baked-in". RAW image files, however, retain all detail without in-camera pre-processing, so you can choose any working color space you like; ProPhoto will retain more of your color detail so many of us think it is the best choice (there is some disagreement here due to problems mapping colors to smaller color spaces but you need to research that and make up your own mind). I think you have the right idea.

I don't see the need to convert to aRGB or sRGB when saving the image though, unless you are posting the image on the Web or sending it to a commercial printer. I let the editor (NX2 or CS4 or LR3) map from ProPhoto directly to the Printer/Ink/Paper profile when I print. I convert to sRGB for web output when I want to post an image. I convert to whatever a commercial printer wants (probably sRGB) if I send photos out for printing.

I don't post or send out much, so other folks should jump in here and set me straight if necessary.

Rob

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G