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PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal

flyingember

US
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flyingember Registered since 03rd Oct 2008
Mon 06-Oct-08 03:18 PM | edited Mon 06-Oct-08 03:35 PM by flyingember

if you want to or not you're eating the fees paypal charges to accept money. If you charge a fee you're opening yourself up to all kinds of problems.

ex. Someone can complain to PayPal and get your account closed with the money trapped in it. If they're really persistent they could get a refund at the same time. Remember- they have your stuff when they do this.

I also notice the selling guidelines here are in violation even if you do follow it (including fees in the price). The only fees paypal allows is a handling fee which would be for the cost of your labor only.

if you charge a handling fee you must include your fee in all items you sell and all payment methods you accept.

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside#receive-policy

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

jpnikon

US
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#1. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

jpnikon Registered since 23rd Jun 2006
Mon 06-Oct-08 04:08 PM

Hi, since I have been talking about Paypal and ebay this morning, I will continue here.

I don't think this is a problem.
Most of us know paypal charge about 3% fee. So if you are selling $100 item, some one pay you $100 through payal, you will only get $97. Some sellers want really to get $100 for their item, so they will say if you pay with paypal, please pay $103, if pay wiht money order just $100. This has nothing to do with Paypal policy.

Just like some gas stations charge different price for cash and credit card payment now.

just my $0.02.

-- jpnikon


RockyIII

Raleigh, US
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#2. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

RockyIII Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 27th May 2006
Mon 06-Oct-08 04:21 PM

It has been brought up before, but there is a lack of enforcement. I always include PayPal fees and shipping expenses in my prices.

Rocky

ScottsFJ40

Olympia, US
281 posts

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#3. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 2

ScottsFJ40 Registered since 11th Sep 2007
Mon 06-Oct-08 04:26 PM

I take that into account when I am selling also. I might ask for shipping, but I include the paypal fee in the price of the item. For me, it is worth the small percentage for the speed that I will get my money for the item.

jpnikon

US
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#4. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 3

jpnikon Registered since 23rd Jun 2006
Mon 06-Oct-08 04:39 PM


I agree that it is a good practice to including paypal fee in the list price, so it is easier for buyer to know that's the final price he/she is going to pay, no matter how to pay.

I was just trying to say that asking extra for paypal payment is not voilating paypal policy, or wrong in any sense.

yo_andrew

marina del rey, US
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#5. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

yo_andrew Registered since 26th Jan 2006
Mon 06-Oct-08 05:27 PM

>4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a
>surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment
>method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the
>sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does
>not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling
>fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

Yo Kevin,

PayPal is a convenience to both buyers and sellers. And their rules are really easy to live with. I would never consider adding a PayPal surcharge to a selling price. To me, that is bad business practice. However I have, on occasion, shared actual shipping costs on items paid by US Postal Money Order.

Some buyers prefer paying with PayPal because it gives them a sense of security, warranty even. Others appreciate that, whenever an item is sold, the funds appear in their PayPal account, all ready for NAS!

In the end, whatever the buyer and seller agree to is what's right. This agreement is more tactfully made using our email system, rather than openly discussed in the forum. Your point is well taken that it improves Nikonians' image, therefore our own, to take the lead in seeing that our forum ads appear to abide by known rules of commonly used related entities, such as PayPal. Thanks for your post.

best, andy


"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

flyingember

US
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#6. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 4

flyingember Registered since 03rd Oct 2008
Mon 06-Oct-08 09:02 PM


You're not going to get in trouble for wanting $200 and charging $230 to cover fees and shipping if that's the final price

but to ask for extra just for paypal payments and not for other forms or even just for specific items is wrong and a violation. if you can't follow the rules don't use the system.

I like paypal.

The choice is super simple. Set a final price, stick to it.

OffBeat

US
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#7. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 5

OffBeat Registered since 08th May 2003
Mon 06-Oct-08 09:30 PM

+1 Andy!

If sellers don't feel they need to follow what they agreed to with Paypal they are implying what there business practice is, to follow only the rules they want to. Personally, if I read an ad where it states PP fees are for the buyer to pay, I move on. I have talked with others that do the same. If a persons word (agreement in this case) isn't to be trusted I would rather deal with someone else. Everyone has there opinion though. Do what you think is right.
Regards...

pwscott61

Fairfiled County, US
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#8. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 7

pwscott61 Registered since 11th Feb 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 11:37 AM | edited Tue 07-Oct-08 03:53 PM by pwscott61

With regard to the example of cash and credit card pricing at a gas station, it's my understanding, albeit as a layperson and not an attorney, that generally they can offer a DISCOUNT for CASH, but not a FEE for a Credit Card. That may just be due to their merchant agreement with the credit card company, but it's not ever presented as a surcharge, rather a discount for cash sale.

jpnikon

US
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#9. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 8

jpnikon Registered since 23rd Jun 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 01:12 PM

>With regard to the example of cash and credit card pricing at
>a gas station, it's my understanding, albeit as a layperson
>and not an attorney, that generally they can offer a DISCOUNT
>for CASH, but not a FEE for a Credit Card. That may just be
>due to their merchant agreement with the credit card company,
>but it's not ever presented as a surcharge, rather a discount
>for cash sale.

Well, if you are willing to think that way, how about someone list an item for $103 (expecting to get $100 roughly), then saying for none paypal payment (cash, money order, etc), pay only $100?

Will that make everybody happy?

Don't you think this is the same as charging extra for paypal, and same as gas station charge differently for credit and cash? The reason behind it is the same: the fee from credit card or paypal!

Of course, a seller may choose to absorb the extra fee, just like a lot of gas stations charge same for cash and credit card.

I am just saying there is nothing wrong either way.

When I buy things charging extra for paypal payment, I will take that into account for total cost, when I sell things with low price, I don't mind I pay the paypal fee. When the difference is big, I may give options for buyer to pay less with money order or check payment.

Of course, others may choose other ways to do it. I just don't think that we need a rule for this. Or other rules like only photographers
can buy or sell here, as a Nikonians suggested in anothe thread.

thorin

US
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#10. "Interesting!" | In response to Reply # 9

thorin Registered since 31st Oct 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 03:38 PM

So, you have established that it is OK for you not to abide by the PayPal agreement. Is it OK for PayPal not to abide by the same agreement?

What I find amazing is the number of excuses that users will come up with not to abide by an agreement and yet they want others to believe they will abide by an agreement with the sellers.

Also, I love the "Charging less for cash is not the same as charging more for PayPal."

thorin
Dallas, TX

pwscott61

Fairfiled County, US
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#11. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 9

pwscott61 Registered since 11th Feb 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 04:49 PM | edited Tue 07-Oct-08 04:55 PM by pwscott61

>>With regard to the example of cash and credit card
>pricing at
>>a gas station, it's my understanding, albeit as a
>layperson
>>and not an attorney, that generally they can offer a
>DISCOUNT
>>for CASH, but not a FEE for a Credit Card. That may just
>be
>>due to their merchant agreement with the credit card
>company,
>>but it's not ever presented as a surcharge, rather a
>discount
>>for cash sale.
>
>Well, if you are willing to think that way, how about someone
>list an item for $103 (expecting to get $100 roughly), then
>saying for none paypal payment (cash, money order, etc), pay
>only $100?
>
>Will that make everybody happy?

That seems to me to be the same as saying you can discount for accepting cash, but I don't think you can say NON-PAYPAL, you say cash. I'm OK with it. The rub for most people on this though is it's a remote transaction....IOW how do you get the cash? I'd be unlikely to send a seller an envelope of cash in advance of getting an item and especially to send it to an 'unverified' address would seem reckless.

I know you can have the UPS person collect cash, but there's a fee for that like there is for PayPal. The point is that transactions at the point of sale (right in front of your face when you have cash in your pocket and one hand on the used D2X you just inspected and actuated the shutter on) are different in terms of trust.

>
>Don't you think this is the same as charging extra for paypal,
>and same as gas station charge differently for credit and
>cash? The reason behind it is the same: the fee from credit
>card or paypal!
>

Your wording is a little confusing to me here. But on the first clause of your sentence, "No" I don't think discounting for cash is the same as charging extra for PayPal.

On the second clause, first sentence still, I am OK with a discount for cash- but again what's cash from 2,000 miles away? A bulging manilla envelope with stamps on it?

>Of course, a seller may choose to absorb the extra fee, just
>like a lot of gas stations charge same for cash and credit
>card.

Agreed.

>
>I am just saying there is nothing wrong either way.

DISAGREED. I see it as a violation of PayPal's Terms - Section 4.3.e *AND * in some states a possible violation of law. Word it the other way- discount for cash and I think it works. Has for years apparently WRT credit cards.

It may work 'logically' for you, but let's consider what the law says. Again, I am not an attorney, and I'm only speaking about the U.S., the Truth in Lending (TIL), also known as Title I of the Consumer Credit Protection Act, made it illegal for merchants, as I understand it, to charge an additional fee for a credit card per se.

http://www.uslaw.com/library/article/bbktilact.html?area_id=11

Apparently, according to an article here:

http://www.gofso.com/Premium/LE/06_le_ic/fg/fg-merchants.html#C

...that Act of US Law expired in 1984. But since then a number of states have apparently enacted State Laws that prohibit an additional charge for using a credit card, that list, is shown here:

http://www.gofso.com/Premium/LE/06_le_ic/fg/fg-merchants.html#MORE:B

We'd have to look at the laws individually to see how specific they are, but I think the fact that charging a surcharge is apparently a violation of PayPal terms is enough to say it's not OK to me. The fee helps protect the buyer and the seller in a remote transaction in my view.
>
>When I buy things charging extra for paypal payment, I will
>take that into account for total cost, when I sell things with
>low price, I don't mind I pay the paypal fee. When the
>difference is big, I may give options for buyer to pay less
>with money order or check payment.
>

Yep. Exactly.

>Of course, others may choose other ways to do it. I just don't
>think that we need a rule for this. Or other rules like only
>photographers
>can buy or sell here, as a Nikonians suggested in anothe
>thread.
>

I don't think Nikonians needs a rule if A) PayPal has its own Ts and Cs and users respect them as required and B) State Laws may apply and supercede any 'forum' rule.

jpnikon

US
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#12. "RE: Interesting!" | In response to Reply # 10

jpnikon Registered since 23rd Jun 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 04:49 PM

Read again of PayPal User Agreement, I have to say that I was wrong saying this has nothing to do with paypal.

Yes, seems the fee is a voilation of the agreement. I will not charge paypal fee for my future sales.

>So, you have established that it is OK for you not to abide
>by the PayPal agreement. Is it OK for PayPal not to abide by
>the same agreement?
>
>What I find amazing is the number of excuses that users will
>come up with not to abide by an agreement and yet they want
>others to believe they will abide by an agreement with the
>sellers.
>
>Also, I love the "Charging less for cash is not the same
>as charging more for PayPal."
>
>thorin
>Dallas, TX

jpnikon

US
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#13. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 11

jpnikon Registered since 23rd Jun 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 04:56 PM

scott, agree with you this is a violation of Paypal agreement, I just carefully read again of the paypal agreement.

Thanks for the discussion.

OffBeat

US
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#14. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 13

OffBeat Registered since 08th May 2003
Tue 07-Oct-08 07:16 PM

Short reply here...

The reason PP has this in their terms of service is because in many states it is against the law to add a surcharge to purchase price for differing types of payments. I'm sure credit card companies greased the pockets of a few to get this law on the books. If PP didn't have this in their terms they would be violating these laws. Some states it's OK, some not...

thorin

US
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#15. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 14

thorin Registered since 31st Oct 2006
Tue 07-Oct-08 10:29 PM

Offbeat,

I thought the "rule" was so vendors would not charge more for PayPal payments, thereby making PayPal a more expensive, and less attractive, way to purchase. I don't think state laws have anything to do with the "rule". I believe the credit cards have the same "rule" in their agreement. Otherwise people would attempt to pass these "fees" on to the customer directly, instead of indirectly. The state laws may be an attempt to codify the "rule".

By the way, did you notice that PayPal purchased BillMeLater? They are becoming an all service payment company - same as cash payments and credit payments. Hope they keep the "90-days same as cash on large purchases - softens the blow when I purchase a lens from B&H.

thorin
Dallas, TX

OffBeat

US
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#16. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 15

OffBeat Registered since 08th May 2003
Tue 07-Oct-08 10:48 PM

It's the $bay business model. Buy up the competition! They like to have all the "rules" in their favor. I'd like to know just how much interest they collect with their slow withdrawal vs. fast collect policy? Funny how it goes to them in a blink of an eye but takes several days for the money to flow in the other direction! Oh well, the price we pay in this day and age. Regards, Bill

LuisGonzalezLT

Macedonia, US
975 posts

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#17. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

LuisGonzalezLT Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Nov 2005
Wed 08-Oct-08 01:03 AM

Cash discounts (on gasoline, etc) vary from state to state. Here is a recent article about Rhode Island, for instance, in which the attorney general himself is actually advocating that gas stations provide discounts for paying with cash versus paying with a credit card.

http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/214143-gasoline-discounts-for-cash-customers-may-be-spreading

And an article from California where VISA tried to go after a gas station for putting the word "Credit" (to indicate the credit card price) on their pump before CA state regulators got VISA to back off. California law prohibits retailers from adding a surcharge for credit card sales but allows discounts for using cash. By the way, PayPal legal issues are to either be taken up in CA or Nebraska. I especially like the statement that the credit card companies made more profit at the gas station than the station owner did. Something's just not right with that.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/21/business/fi-gascash21

So let's have an example:

You set a sale price for an item you are listing at $103. Where that item is advertised doesn't really matter.

You offer a cash discount of $3. Typically this is either cash in hand, a US Postal Service money order, personal check, or some other instrument where the seller is not charged a fee for the transaction. In some states this also must apply to debit cards. The buyer may be paying a charge of their own (in the case of the money order), but that is their perogitive.

You don't mention Paypal, or any other service for that matter in your listing. If the buyer decides to use that method of payment, they certainly can, and the price is $103 as advertised. Or they can call in their credit card. Whatever.

If the buyer decides to send a USPS Money Order, they can, and the price is $100. To say Paypal has some legal basis for how you conducted that cash transaction that never involved or mentioned them is silly.

I personally never always knew of their (PayPal) policy regarding fees. As a matter of policy now I always pay the paypal fees if I mention them in a listing. However, I do price my item accordingly, just like any other business on the planet factors in that cost of goods sold into their pricing structure (i.e. the buried surcharge - see gas station story above). To think a seller never "charges" for the credit card/paypal/whatever fee is naive. It's built into the price of everything you buy. I can guarantee that the price of that gallon of milk you bought at the grocery store is costing you many cents more than it would otherwise due to the credit card fees built into the price (whether you pay with cash OR credit in that case). That is the $3 in the above example. I have a local grocery store that doesn't take credit cards and, guess what? Their prices are routinely lower than the other grocer down the street that accepts credit cards. I wonder why that is???

So do you think that every business on the planet that offers a cash discount is shady and is executing bad business practices? Not according to CA and RI and probably most other states. Someone should research every other state

On the other hand, to blatently state the buyer pays the paypal fees IS a violation of their policy. Plain and simple there. Don't do it.

Luis Gonzalez
Everlasting Photography, Inc

Iceman15613

Apollo, US
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#18. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 17

Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005
Thu 09-Oct-08 01:33 AM | edited Thu 09-Oct-08 01:35 AM by Iceman15613

If I list an item for sale and the buyer requests that they use PayPal, that is their request not mine. If I agree to honor their request as a courtesy to the buyer, they are responsible for any costs over and above the price I have offered the item for sale. For me, that is no different than if a buyer requests overnight shipping or some other extra expense. I am not comfortable with accepting PayPal because their complete failure to protect sellers. If you have been folowing the battle that has been taking place with PayPal and sellers, you would understand the issues. If I voluntarily state that I will accept PayPal then I will aborb the fees, since I do not, I will accept PayPal with great reluctance at the buyer's request and at their expense.

sdhanson

St. Peter, US
69 posts

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#19. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 18

sdhanson Gold Member Nikonian since 16th Jan 2006
Thu 09-Oct-08 01:51 AM

I think the agency that would enforce this drivel is probably the same one that will come and get you if you tear the tags off your mattress.
Get a life.

coolpix43

Princeton, US
52 posts

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#20. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

coolpix43 Registered since 07th Jan 2007
Thu 09-Oct-08 01:53 AM

Personally, I think this statement is BS. Paypal has no authority over me or anyone else for that matter to add whatever fees I see fit to a transaction. The transaction originally occurs outside the realm of Paypal and the total dollar amount is entered once you go to Paypal to pay for your merchandise. Whatever you agreed to pay for the items is entered and then Paypal takes their cut. That's it.

chuckered

port orchard, US
329 posts

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#21. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 19

chuckered Registered since 25th Apr 2006
Thu 09-Oct-08 02:31 AM | edited Thu 09-Oct-08 02:33 AM by chuckered

I have heard a lot of talking about the 3% paypal fee weather you added to the price before or after it doesn't matter you are still charging the fee. If you do it after someone with cash or money order gets a better price. I think anyone selling can ask what they want, you don;t have to buy it if you don't agree, about anything. We aren't here to argue about prices or anything with anyone selling stuff, the rules say not to argue with the seller, someone is breaking rules somewhere else is not are bussiness other than for this site, I don't charge the 3% but I think if someone wants it that is their privlege.

If only we could put to film what is in our heart and mind.

yo_andrew

marina del rey, US
3204 posts

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#22. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 18

yo_andrew Registered since 26th Jan 2006
Thu 09-Oct-08 02:40 AM

>If I list an item for sale and the buyer requests that they
>use PayPal, that is their request not mine. If I agree to
>honor their request as a courtesy to the buyer, they are
>responsible for any costs over and above the price I have
>offered the item for sale. For me, that is no different than
>if a buyer requests overnight shipping or some other extra
>expense..

Yo Robert,

while this makes perfect sense, even to me, if a buyer meets such an objection right from the start, might this tiny point become counter-productive to the main objective of selling the XXX?

best, andy


"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

Iceman15613

Apollo, US
476 posts

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#23. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 22

Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005
Thu 09-Oct-08 07:33 AM

I presume that if the buyer wants to use PayPal but refuses to pay the fees then the ball is in the seller's court. After all, in the end that is all buying and selling is, a negotiation. But to say that you cannot charge a few to recover excess paypal costs is not acceptable.

RockyIII

Raleigh, US
3309 posts

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#24. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 20

RockyIII Gold Member Donor Ribbon awarded for his very generous support to the Fundraising Campaign 2015 Nikonian since 27th May 2006
Fri 10-Oct-08 12:40 AM

Like it or not, when you signup to use PayPal, you are obliged to accept their User Agreement, and not imposing a surcharge for fees is one of the conditions. Major credit card companies have the same rule.

Rocky

Pursuit

Kirkland, US
2111 posts

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#25. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 24

Pursuit Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jan 2003
Fri 10-Oct-08 02:41 AM

I called my Master Card bank once to inquire about the legality of a jeweler that wanted to charge me more to use my Master Card (which has a pricing agreement similar to paypal's) rather than pay cash. They asked if the merchant specifically said they were charging a surcharge, or were they merely offer a "cash discount"? They told me they had no legal grounds to object to a cash discount.

In some of the forums (like the Wedding or Turning Pro forums) we occasionally receive postings asking legal questions. For some time now the response to these questions has been:

1) We are a group of photographers, not lawyers.
2) Different regions have different laws, so there is no "one size fits all" answer.

It could well be that the section of paypal's contract regarding surchages is invalid in, say, Nevada or Canada or Dubai because it violates statutes in those jurisdictions. So, I propose we let this topic die off. I'm sure paypal will defend their rights if they find it is in their business interests to do so.

Jim Kelly
More wag, less bark. (anon)

uncletammy

Austin, US
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#26. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

uncletammy Registered since 20th Feb 2007
Fri 10-Oct-08 03:35 PM

Why is this even an issue? Its simple economics. As the cost of doing business goes up, the consumer eats it. Its the same reason rising gas prices have resulted in a 20% increase in your grocery bill within the last 4 months.

Trust me, paypal couldnt care less. They are getting their money regardless of who pays the fee. If you have ever called their customer service for any reason, you know exactly what paypal cares about and thats paypal. They are a terrible company and you guys shouldnt be doing business with them anyway.

Iceman15613

Apollo, US
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#27. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 26

Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005
Fri 10-Oct-08 06:27 PM

This post says it all.

TampaNikon1

Spring Hill, US
1070 posts

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#28. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 27

TampaNikon1 Registered since 01st Dec 2001
Fri 10-Oct-08 07:30 PM

Hey, now I'm not here to specifically defend Paypal but...

They offer a service for the exchange of money/payments and are entitled to a fee for that service, 3% does not seem that unreasonable to me.

How much is the almost instant transaction/verification worth vs. the time involved in purchasing a money order, mailing it, waiting for the other party receive the money order, then they eventually ship the goods etc?

If you choose other methods such as Western Union wire transfer, bank check etc. these cost money as well.

Has everyone complained to your bank about the average $2.50 non-bank ATM fee?

If you only take out $20, then they are charging you 12.5% to get to your own money!

I look at it this way, convenience fees are everywhere, you pay for speed and convenience.

Thanks

Bob, A Florida Nikonian

"When you turn your camera on...does it return the favor?
"If Not get a "NIKON" !

nht1637a

Ballwin, US
306 posts

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#29. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 28

nht1637a Registered since 21st Mar 2008
Fri 10-Oct-08 09:10 PM | edited Fri 10-Oct-08 09:18 PM by nht1637a

>Hey, now I'm not here to specifically defend Paypal but...
>
>They offer a service for the exchange of money/payments and
>are entitled to a fee for that service, 3% does not seem that
>unreasonable to me.
>
>How much is the almost instant transaction/verification worth
>vs. the time involved in purchasing a money order, mailing
>it, waiting for the other party receive the money order, then
>they eventually ship the goods etc?
>
>If you choose other methods such as Western Union wire
>transfer, bank check etc. these cost money as well.
>
>Has everyone complained to your bank about the average $2.50
>non-bank ATM fee?
>
>If you only take out $20, then they are charging you 12.5% to
>get to your own money!
>
>I look at it this way, convenience fees are everywhere, you
>pay for speed and convenience.
>
>Thanks
>
>Bob, A Florida Nikonian
>
>"When you turn your camera
>on...does it return the favor?

>"If Not get a>color="yellow"] "NIKON">color="red"] !

Bob,I totally agree with you. 3% PP fee give me peace in mind, fast/safe payment process--> faster I will receive the item. If going to USPS or banks, gas and time will cost me the same! Furthermore, checks is not a protective payment.
I think sellers have their rights to require %3 fee if buyers' payment method costs them the same .Why not??? If buyers don't agree,they can pay by checks then have to wait until check's clear. If I use PP, then I will get my items quickly.
I also think %3 should be on the buyers side, like tax if they choose PP. Otherwise the sellers included it to their prices for all kinds of payments.Which ever is their right..... IMHO.The most important is that you choose which way.

This forum is not for commercial. This is for agreement buying and selling between photographers. So,I don't think that's a good idea to bring business laws into here.

yo_andrew

marina del rey, US
3204 posts

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#30. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 26

yo_andrew Registered since 26th Jan 2006
Fri 10-Oct-08 09:13 PM

>Why is this even an issue? Its simple economics. As the cost
>of doing business goes up, the consumer eats it. Its the same
>reason rising gas prices have resulted in a 20% increase in
>your grocery bill within the last 4 months.

Yo Nicholas,

it's a shame, isn't it? I agree. And it breaks my heart that the poor people are the ones to get hit the hardest. Some of "them" have even proposed a per-grocery-bag surcharge!

>Trust me, paypal couldnt care less.

You should not have started with "trust me".

PayPal cares.
That's why they get you to agree to these rules every time you use their system. They are providing a service which, like every service, has conditions.

If you were to borrow my camera, you would not object to my saying "on one condition: that you bring it back in the same condition." You might be willing to agree so you could use the camera; or you might refuse, then try to get one elsewhere. When we use something which is not ours, we often must accept someone else's rules, just like we do when we post here.

best, andy


"THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE"
Not till we have lost the world do we begin to find ourselves

XUBIOSCHOEFF

Cincinnati, US
482 posts

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#31. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 30

XUBIOSCHOEFF Registered since 09th Nov 2007
Sat 11-Oct-08 03:22 PM

Andy,

You have summed up the argument well. It is a service, and it has rules. We pay for services both with cash and releasing our 'freedoms' to an organization. Just think of those FEES we all pay for highways, bridges, and law enforcement- and we also lose our 'freedom' to take the law into our own hand!

Of all the things to get bent over . . . the law restricting tripods from use on national monuments should be more upsetting to the photographic community? I had 12 security personell trailing me in Washington last summer!

Dan Schoeff
(No Longer Newbie) Nikonian with a lust for information
http://DanielSchoeff.smugmug.com/

Iceman15613

Apollo, US
476 posts

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#32. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 30

Iceman15613 Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Oct 2005
Sat 11-Oct-08 03:45 PM

This logic is embracing fallacy for one simple reason. PayPal is forcing a seller to pay for buyer protection. To make things even worse, some sellers are even unaware of how unprotected they are when permitting a paypal transaction. There is no rational reason for any seller to accept paypal, let alone pay for the priveledge of providing protection for the buyer. PayPal leaves sellers open to a huge volume of buyer perpetuated fraud while providing little if any recourse. And, to pour salt in the wound, they want paid for doing this; I don't think so!

imageswest

BF
358 posts

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#33. "RE: PSA: You can not charge fees for using PayPal" | In response to Reply # 0

imageswest Registered since 18th Jul 2004
Sat 11-Oct-08 04:58 PM

>if you want to or not you're eating the fees paypal charges
>to accept money. If you charge a fee you're opening yourself
>up to all kinds of problems.
>
>ex. Someone can complain to PayPal and get your account closed
>with the money trapped in it. If they're really persistent
>they could get a refund at the same time. Remember- they have
>your stuff when they do this.
>
>I also notice the selling guidelines here are in violation
>even if you do follow it (including fees in the price). The
>only fees paypal allows is a handling fee which would be for
>the cost of your labor only.
>
>if you charge a handling fee you must include your fee in all
>items you sell and all payment methods you accept.
>
>https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside#receive-policy
>
>4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a
>surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment
>method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the
>sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does
>not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling
>fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

Under California state law, it's illegal for PayPal to charge *us* fees for accepting credit card payments, but they do it anyway.

If you're going to waste energy complaining about people charging fees, why don't you go after PayPal instead of annoying the people on this forum?

soonipi1957

Haverhill, US
431 posts

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#34. "What Boggles My Mind" | In response to Reply # 33

soonipi1957 Registered since 05th Mar 2004
Sat 11-Oct-08 05:52 PM

Is that there are folks who actually spend time fretting over this.

Life is way too short folks......

Jim Fenton
D2Xs Shooter
Haverhill, Massachusetts

Images @ www.pbase.com/soonipi1957

G