Lens setting for copying slides
Tue 23-Feb-21 03:49 PM
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#3. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 1
Wed 24-Feb-21 11:06 AMyes I had heard it was hard to get but I put in a backorder with B&H and had it in 10 days. They must have gotten a shipment after I placed the order that was big enough to clear all backorders. I really like the setup.Visit my Nikonians gallery.
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#2. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 0
Strada_Facendo
Registered since 06th Jun 2017
Tue 23-Feb-21 10:41 PM
There are two things to keep in mind. One is optimal lens performance, and the other is optimal depth of field.
The focus distance is very short so the DoF is very shallow, especially at larger apertures. If the film is even a tiny bit curved, or the negative holder is even a tiny bit loose in the ES-2 so the negative is not perpendicular to the sensor, or your focus is even a tiny bit off, the DoF at f/5.6 may not be enough to keep the whole film, or even any of it, in acceptable focus.
My experience with the ES-2 using a D500 and the 40/2.8 DX is that f/8 gives more reliable results because of the DoF issue.
The focus distance is very short so the DoF is very shallow, especially at larger apertures. If the film is even a tiny bit curved, or the negative holder is even a tiny bit loose in the ES-2 so the negative is not perpendicular to the sensor, or your focus is even a tiny bit off, the DoF at f/5.6 may not be enough to keep the whole film, or even any of it, in acceptable focus.
My experience with the ES-2 using a D500 and the 40/2.8 DX is that f/8 gives more reliable results because of the DoF issue.
"I don't want to show things, but to give people the desire to see." Agnes Varda
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#4. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 2
Wed 24-Feb-21 12:22 PM | edited Wed 24-Feb-21 12:34 PM by Jamed600I measured and have only 2" from the lens to film plane so your point is well taken. I will change to f8.0. Don't know what DoF will be but hopefully enough.
A lens used to come with a depth of field matrix- f stop vs distance. Are you aware of a Nikon resource that provides that for all of their lenses?
Thanks, JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#6. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 5
Wed 24-Feb-21 02:51 PMCarl, Thanks
Interesting, Ill try it. My images done so far are pretty good but not as sharp as I would like. Not sure if it is 50 year old Film, camera or 25 year old operator (at that time)- Probably all the proceeding.
JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#9. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 6
jarvicj Registered since 04th Jun 2004Thu 25-Feb-21 10:15 AMThe amazing part to me about copying old slides is the amount of information one can still pull out with overexposing shades and under exposing the blown out skies, followed by stacking later. While sharp images are desired I think of the equipment (cameras and lenses) I used 40-50 years ago and some “softness” is to be expected, but there are some sharp gems as well.
Carl
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#7. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 4
Thu 25-Feb-21 06:42 AM
> I measured and have only 2" from the lens to film
>plane so your point is well taken. I will change to f8.0.
>Don't know what DoF will be but hopefully enough.
>
>A lens used to come with a depth of field matrix- f stop vs
>distance. Are you aware of a Nikon resource that provides
>that for all of their lenses?
>
>Thanks, JimB
If the lens was new, the info is in the book provided with the lens. It is on the last few pages.I
Otherwise try Nikon Downloads for the pdf version.
https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/239/AF-S_Micro_NIKKOR_60mm_f_28G_ED.html
DG
>plane so your point is well taken. I will change to f8.0.
>Don't know what DoF will be but hopefully enough.
>
>A lens used to come with a depth of field matrix- f stop vs
>distance. Are you aware of a Nikon resource that provides
>that for all of their lenses?
>
>Thanks, JimB
If the lens was new, the info is in the book provided with the lens. It is on the last few pages.I
Otherwise try Nikon Downloads for the pdf version.
https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/239/AF-S_Micro_NIKKOR_60mm_f_28G_ED.html
DG
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#10. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 7
Thu 25-Feb-21 11:07 AMDave,
I bought the lens used so didn't get a manual. I was talking about my new S lenses (24-70,14-24) those manuals give close focus but not DoF matrix. I figured the 60 micro was the same.
Thanks for direction to the Nikon download site; that's great and will probably help me with the new lenses.
JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
#8. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 4
Thu 25-Feb-21 09:09 AM | edited Thu 25-Feb-21 09:09 AM by elec164
> I measured and have only 2" from the lens to film
>plane so your point is well taken. I will change to f8.0.
>Don't know what DoF will be but hopefully enough.
The working distance is not what you want, the focus distance is (film plane to sensor distance). According to the manual linked by Dave it's 7.29" at 1:1 reproduction ratio.
>A lens used to come with a depth of field matrix- f stop vs
>distance. Are you aware of a Nikon resource that provides
>that for all of their lenses?
According to the chart in the manual, at 1:1 even at f/32 you only have about 1/16" DOF. Hardly enough to matter much I would think but better then nothing I guess.
>plane so your point is well taken. I will change to f8.0.
>Don't know what DoF will be but hopefully enough.
The working distance is not what you want, the focus distance is (film plane to sensor distance). According to the manual linked by Dave it's 7.29" at 1:1 reproduction ratio.
>A lens used to come with a depth of field matrix- f stop vs
>distance. Are you aware of a Nikon resource that provides
>that for all of their lenses?
According to the chart in the manual, at 1:1 even at f/32 you only have about 1/16" DOF. Hardly enough to matter much I would think but better then nothing I guess.
Pete
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#11. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 8
Thu 25-Feb-21 11:24 AM | edited Thu 25-Feb-21 12:14 PM by Jamed600Pete,
Thanks, I measured (as best I could) and it appears film plane to slide is about 7 5/16 so that's pretty close.
In terms of DoF even the slightest touch to the barrel and its out of focus. At f11 sure my DoF is less than 1/16. I'm rechecking focus at 100% for each slide.
Finally opened the online manual (I never think about an online resource, I come from a paper age) and at f11 my DoF range is from 7-5/16 to 7-5/16!!
JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#12. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 11
Thu 25-Feb-21 12:36 PM | edited Thu 25-Feb-21 06:45 PM by elec164>Pete,
>
>Thanks, I measured (as best I could) and it appears film plane
>to slide is about 7 5/16 so that's pretty close.
>
>In terms of DoF even the slightest touch to the barrel and its
>out of focus. At f11 sure my DoF is less than 1/16. I'm
>rechecking focus at 100% for each slide.
From my understanding the ES-2 is designed to hold the slide/film at the minimum focus distance of the macro lens (adapters are needed depending on which 60mm you are using). So theoretically you would set the lens for minimum focus distance. But not having used one I have no practical experience on how that would actually work out. I know when I have shot at 1:1 I set the lens to minimum focus distance and use a focus rail.
>Finally opened the online manual (I never think about an
>online resource, I come from a paper age) and at f11 my DoF
>range is from 7-5/16 to 7-5/16!!
Yeah, when at 1:1 distance those online DOF tables are useless. You need to use a macro DOF calculator such as this one by PhotoPills (but unfortunately it doesn't allow you to set the actual 1:1 focus distance for that lens). Also don't forget that at macro distance the DOF is spilt 50/50. So if the DOF is 1/16" that is only 1/32" in front and back.
edited to add:
After watching a few how to video's I see my understanding was incorrect. It appears that the ES-2 probably holds the film/slides slightly further away then the minimum focus distance (perhaps to allow for tolerance errors?). So focusing is needed. Seems split between using autofocus and using live view.Pete
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#13. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 0
Fri 26-Feb-21 10:07 AM
I am using my AF Micro Nikkor 60mm f2.8 D with the ES-2 adapter and I am getting great results with my D850, and lit with an LED panel. I went with f5.6. I mounted the lot on a desktop tripod, a monster by Induro, which is rock solid. I shoot with the WR-R10 wireless trigger, in manual exposure and and I am not concerned about shutter speed as the whole thing is rock steady.
Chief problem is dust on transparencies or on old negatives.
FYI I got the ES-2 on Amazon
Chief problem is dust on transparencies or on old negatives.
FYI I got the ES-2 on Amazon
GH
#14. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 0
Fri 26-Feb-21 11:49 AM
Jim,
Vincent Versace did a video on using the ES-2. He used f8 with the 60mm lens. Here is a link to it.
-6Zg_3lf&index=2
Gary
Vincent Versace did a video on using the ES-2. He used f8 with the 60mm lens. Here is a link to it.
-6Zg_3lf&index=2
Gary
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#15. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 14
Fri 26-Feb-21 02:23 PMThank you, this is very helpful :hugging_face:
Christian,
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#16. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 14
Sat 27-Feb-21 12:02 PM | edited Sat 27-Feb-21 12:05 PM by Jamed600Gary,
Versace video very helpful and a good compliment to Hudson Henry's. Between the two I feel Ive got a good understanding of the process. I hadn't thought of focus peaking. My two big areas of frustration have been slide cleaning and achieving focus with almost no DoF. His info on cleaning materials and process will help. Also focus peaking may reduce eye strain and give a better result.
Lastly, I think HH said to put the emulsion side toward the light. Couldn't understand why my images reversed in LR (no problem correcting but Id rather do it right the first time)
Thanks for the video, JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#17. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 16
Sat 27-Feb-21 01:12 PMJim,
I noticed the difference about the the emulsion side direction between Versace and HH too. I'm still scanning photos from the 1930s, 40s & 50s. The slides will be next. What have you done for slide cleaning?
GaryVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#18. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 17
Sun 28-Feb-21 11:03 AMSo far just basic- wipe with soft brush then micro fibre and blow off with Rocket blower. I haven't gotten to negatives yet but am ordering the items Versace recommends. Dust and "schmutz" (love it) a problem with my early 60s slides but not so much with 80s on- those are coming out quite clean.
As recommended by HH I tried to download Negative Lab Pro but LR wouldn't accept it. Not sure why but I'll pursue that next week.
We did 20s-50s pics last year making books of family history for our kids/grandkids. I wasn't satisfied with my scanning equipment/skill so had those done commercially (not cheap).
With the 60 micro at 1;1 there is no DoF and i've found it hard to focus exactly. Ive moved the slide holder out on its barrel about 1/2" and gone to f11. I am now able to do a much better job on focus. This puts me at about 1:125. I can see the outline of the slide holder. I am setting exposure according to the histogram so may be underexposing. Will check after i finish the first tray of slides.
JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#19. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 0
Gonga
Registered since 16th Dec 2017
Thu 04-Mar-21 01:03 AM | edited Thu 04-Mar-21 12:48 PM by Gonga
Was doing this with an ES-1, but got the ES-2 from B&H last week, which is better. I’m using the AF-S 105mm f2.8 G VR lens on the FTZ with extensions between the filter threads and ES-2. Autofocus is a dream with perfect results every time. Finished the first tray but I have many thousands of slides to go, and I recommend autofocus when using a mirrorless if possible.
I saw this thread and wanted to recommend that you always test for the best aperture with each lens. I tested my 105mm at various distances, and to my surprise I had best results (center, DX corners and FX corners) at f13 at all distances (including portrait and longer distances) I kid you not, the best center accutance was at f13! It makes me wonder whether perhaps the micros, being macro lenses, are somehow optimized for smaller apertures.
Edit: I want to add that like you no doubt, most of my other lenses perform best around f4 to f5.6 overall though some improve at f8 in the corners. Many of my older lenses, especially the AiS, needed smaller apertures, like f11, for the best corners.
I saw this thread and wanted to recommend that you always test for the best aperture with each lens. I tested my 105mm at various distances, and to my surprise I had best results (center, DX corners and FX corners) at f13 at all distances (including portrait and longer distances) I kid you not, the best center accutance was at f13! It makes me wonder whether perhaps the micros, being macro lenses, are somehow optimized for smaller apertures.
Edit: I want to add that like you no doubt, most of my other lenses perform best around f4 to f5.6 overall though some improve at f8 in the corners. Many of my older lenses, especially the AiS, needed smaller apertures, like f11, for the best corners.
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#20. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 19
Fri 05-Mar-21 01:12 PMDan,
Very interesting that you recommend autofocus. All of the videos and advice I've received say manual focus and i am finding that quite difficult with ZERO DoF- lots of eyestrain. I am copying with a Z 7 so certainly will try autofocus. I tried focus peaking but for some reason can't get it to work. I am using an F mount lens so maybe peaking won't work with legacy lenses??
Ive been playing with F stops and have settled on F11 for now- mainly to get a little DoF, but I will keep experimenting.
I notice from your profile you like "True DoF Pro" I've been looking for an app and will try it.
Thanks, JimBVisit my Nikonians gallery.
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#22. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 20
Sun 07-Mar-21 01:02 PMJim
I'm doing exactly the same thing with a Z7. I've found that looking at the camera screen upside down (it's on a copy stand) is just too difficult. However, after some research and experimentation, I now plan to use ControlMyNikon to see the live view image on a 27" monitor. I'm still in the evaluation phase, but it seems to work fine and I expect to buy it.
I can also get a version of focus-peaking on the screen via CMN, which helps a lot. Like you, the camera's focus peaking isn't working for some reason. I'm using the 105mm macro lens with the FTZ.
I've just rattled through all the slides from 1960, the hardest job being cleaning off the dust.
John-
#23. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 22
Sun 07-Mar-21 05:14 PMA possibility for tethering to a PC is
http://digicamcontrol.com/
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#21. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 0
Gonga
Registered since 16th Dec 2017
Fri 05-Mar-21 02:31 PM
JimB,
Glad if I could help.
Try this: use the “OK” button to go to 100% and then autofocus in the center of the slide. If you have the results I did, you’ll see every little grain in the slide. I was always a big manual focus guy. But lately I even use autofocus for my landscape photography and for focus stacking. I do go to 100% a lot, to check the
focus, but 98% of the time it’s better than I could do manually.
Focus peaking does work with f-mount, but it only gives you a “ballpark” in my experience.
True DoF Pro is my most-used app. Because of the high res of the Z7, I have learned to set the Blur Spot diameter to 25 or even less. The old hyperfocal distances on printed scales are no longer useful with the new high-res gear, but in addition to its other capabilities, TDOFP allows you to alter the hyperfocal distances based on your sensor and rig. It’s addictive, that app!
Glad if I could help.
Try this: use the “OK” button to go to 100% and then autofocus in the center of the slide. If you have the results I did, you’ll see every little grain in the slide. I was always a big manual focus guy. But lately I even use autofocus for my landscape photography and for focus stacking. I do go to 100% a lot, to check the
focus, but 98% of the time it’s better than I could do manually.
Focus peaking does work with f-mount, but it only gives you a “ballpark” in my experience.
True DoF Pro is my most-used app. Because of the high res of the Z7, I have learned to set the Blur Spot diameter to 25 or even less. The old hyperfocal distances on printed scales are no longer useful with the new high-res gear, but in addition to its other capabilities, TDOFP allows you to alter the hyperfocal distances based on your sensor and rig. It’s addictive, that app!
#24. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 0
Wed 10-Mar-21 10:09 AM
Jim,
I suggest you take a look at my recent post in the D850 Forum, D850 to Digitize Kodachrome and Ektachrome Slides.
I have used the 60mm f/2.8D and 60mm f/2.8G Micro lenses and both the ES-2 and ES-1 duplicators. On both lenses I selected f/8 and got consistent results. I found the D version of the lens more difficult to manually focus than the G lens, but 99% of the time relied upon the AF in Live View which utilizes upon contrast-detect focus off the sensor of my D850. Of course with a mirrorless Z camera, you always auto focusing off the sensor, but the camera chooses between phase-detect and contrast-detect automatically unless you are in Pinpoint AF on the Z-series cameras which always uses contrast-detect.
I suggest you take a look at my recent post in the D850 Forum, D850 to Digitize Kodachrome and Ektachrome Slides.
I have used the 60mm f/2.8D and 60mm f/2.8G Micro lenses and both the ES-2 and ES-1 duplicators. On both lenses I selected f/8 and got consistent results. I found the D version of the lens more difficult to manually focus than the G lens, but 99% of the time relied upon the AF in Live View which utilizes upon contrast-detect focus off the sensor of my D850. Of course with a mirrorless Z camera, you always auto focusing off the sensor, but the camera chooses between phase-detect and contrast-detect automatically unless you are in Pinpoint AF on the Z-series cameras which always uses contrast-detect.
- Consider tethering your camera. Much easier than trying to work off the viewfinder. I also had a separate monitor to assist in focusing. I with two HDMI cables hooked to both the camera and the laptop, I could check focus directly from the camera, then toggle to the laptop after shooting to verify focus.
- Camera control software when tethered is extremely effective and efficient, particularly if you are doing a large volume of duplicates. I used Smart Shooter 4. I had little experience with either tethering or camera control software before this project, but the learning curve was quite easy. The software allows you to bypass the camera memory card and auto-import directly into Lightroom.
- You will find that many of the slides you are duplicating will not be perfectly flat as a result of storage conditions, time, and the type of mount. The quickest solution is to use the pinpoint focus on the most important subject in the slide (usually the head or eye for people). Given the extremely shallow depth-of-field for duplicating, you sometimes have to make difficult choices. For slides that are truly warped or if you have unmounted positives, plastic mounts are a good solution and when snapped shut tend to flatten the film farily well. Caution, however, not all plastic mounts will fit into the ES-2 carrier, so I ended up using the ES-1 duplicator for these mounts.
- After extensive searching whether to shoot with the emulsion toward or away from the lens, I found no definitive consensus. I tried it both ways and ended up with the emulsion side toward the lens which seemed to give quicker and more accurate results with contrast-detect AF, and then flipped the image in Lightroom.
I like to hear from you and others about color correcting the duplicated images in either Lightroom or Photoshop. I've experimented a bit with using curves in PS, but have not always had satisfactory final results.
Herb
Dearborn, Michigan
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#25. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 24
Wed 10-Mar-21 02:39 PMFollowing your post, Herb, I have been trying out Sharp Shooter 4. It may be better than ControlMyNikon in some respects, although CMN has a useful focus peaking facility. I haven't yet decided which to pick.
I still have several thousand slides to copy, and then the film negatives, so I'm trying to get it right at the start!
One conclusion so far: using a copy stand and a slide/film holder over a lightbox (with live view on a big monitor) is much easier than the ES2.
John -
#26. "RE: Lens setting for copying slides" | In response to Reply # 24
Wed 10-Mar-21 02:56 PMHerb,
Thanks, you have a great equipment setup and process. I do not have the capability of duplicating that-not very computer savvy (I'm still trying to learn how to back up LR to a remote drive). While my process is simple I am starting to get acceptable results.
I read about your file size debate. I'm using the full 45 mp but found that focusing was much easier if I moved the barrel of the ES-2 out about 3/8" so I am not quite 1:1 and the edge of the mounting shows. I crop that so am probably getting about 30 mp which is plenty for my intended use.
All of my slides are Ektachrome and I am getting a lot of grain, particularly if I open up shadows. Think that during that period I was buying ASA 400 for low light so that explains the grain. I am also getting a lot of blue cast and the color shifts you mention. Wish I had stayed with Kodachrome ASA 25.Visit my Nikonians gallery.
G
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I have never used a 60 micro; bought it used from KEH so not sure what the sweet spot is but thought f5.6 should be close.
JimB