Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adaptor?
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#1. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
Wed 30-Dec-20 03:07 PMHi Mike. I own a Z7.
If I understand what you are saying correctly, Nikon would have to either change the F lenses adapter, or change the Z cameras would have to be changed.
Nikon seems to be happy with the mount made part of the Z cameras, so I do not see that changing. So the solution would appear to be to keep the FTZ adapter, or as you suggest, change the mount on F lenses.
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#2. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 1
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Wed 30-Dec-20 03:17 PM | edited Wed 30-Dec-20 03:20 PM by mjcmtI'm not sure I made myself clear. I'm saying it would be nice if Nikon made a mirrorless body specifically for the F mount lenses (with a 45 mp sensor like current D850). This body would be in addition to the Z mount cameras and Z lenses.Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph-
#3. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 2
Wed 30-Dec-20 04:04 PMThe body would need a redesign to incorporate the correct distance between the mount flange and the sensor, essentially incorporating the FTZ into the body. I don’t see how the cost of doing this would be worthwhile to Nikon or the customers.Mick
"The difference between a professional photographer and other photographers is the pro doesn't show you the bad shots."
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#4. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
• They can wait back with their DSLRs and F glass and hold off on a move to mirrorless
• They can move to the mirrorless bodies and gradually transition to Z lenses as they become available, using their F glass on the FTZ adapter
Using a Z body with the FTZ is not a penalty compared to a comparable DSLR. Aside the future benefit of better glass as more Z lenses become available, there are instal benefits: VR for F glass that did not have VR; much better manual focus ability compared to any of the DSLRs; and much better manual focus override, particularly useful to wildlife and action shooters using long glass; minimal if any AF fine tune required; no mirror bounce; and more…
The only knock on migrating to the Z bodies is that the Z lens offerings are coming out slowly. But F glass makes a reasonable substitute.
Jon Kandel
An Alexandria, VA Nikonian and Team Member
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#5. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 4
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Wed 30-Dec-20 08:43 PMI'm not 100% on board with your assessment. I have no interest in upgrading to z lenses and the added size of the adaptor is a deterrent for me. But a mirrorless body for all the current F mount lenses, especially the G lenses, would attract me to a compact mirrorless body. I'm sure I'm not alone on this.Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph-
#6. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 5
Wed 30-Dec-20 11:28 PM | edited Wed 30-Dec-20 11:29 PM by RassieI can't see how Nikon would spend all the extra money required to design a new mirrorless body for existing f-mount lenses, particularly when one considers that mirrorless and their lenses are the way of the future.
What you're hoping for is that Nikon would spend money and research on a new series of mirrorless body designs to accommodate f-mount lenses that are most likely going to be phased out and replaced with Z-mount lens designs in the future. Not going to happen. The Z-mount lenses are proving to be superior to their F-mount counterparts, so that genie is not going back into the bottle. -
#7. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 5
Thu 31-Dec-20 05:02 AMMike, as has been said already, in order to use an F mount lens on a mirrorless camera you will always need the same distance between the sensor and the mount as you have on all the F mount cameras - which is essentially a Z camera with the FTZ fixed in place. You would save a few ounces by doing this as the body extension needed would be lighter than the FTZ, but apart from that it would be identical to a Z camera + FTZ.
But it sounds as it you are asking for a D850 with a 'Z camera' inside it?
From a user's point of view, to get what you are asking for, not only does Nikon have to produce a brand new model (which encourages users to stay with 'old technology' lenses, but you need to buy a new camera - so buying a Z+FTZ does everything you want except that it doesn't look like a D850.
The advantage of only using F lenses with a Z camera is that you never have to think about whether you need the FTZ when you change lenses - and which lens your FTZ may be attached to. I did once go out with my 300PF lens in my bag only to find that my FTZ was still attached to my 500PF back at home!
GeoffVisit my Nikonians gallery and my personal website: www.geoffbaylisphotography.co.uk
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#9. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 7
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Thu 31-Dec-20 07:53 AMNot to be contrary, the thing I don't understand about the distance from lens to sensor logic is that the F mount lenses project image to a sensor w/o out the lens being 2" further from the body like a Z mirrorless w/ adaptor. The only thing I see is instead of a mirror like a DSLR the image on the sensor now attaches to a mirrorless body which is cheaper to manufacture than a DSLR w/ many moving parts. I can't comprehend it.Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph-
#11. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 9
Thu 31-Dec-20 08:53 AMFirst of all, the FTZ isn't 2" thick.
The distance from the lens mount flange to the sensor on a Nikon F-mount DSLR is 46.5mm. On the Z mount, it is 16mm. That difference is 1.2". A rough measure of a FTZ's overall thickness approximates that.
If you were to mount an F-mount lens 16mm from the sensor, you would get a very small image indeed. To have the image completely cover the sensor, you would need a sensor about the size of those on Coolpix cameras. And those certainly are not as capable as a D850.Mick
"The difference between a professional photographer and other photographers is the pro doesn't show you the bad shots."
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
My Nikonians Galleries: https://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/117796See my portfolio.
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#12. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 9
Thu 31-Dec-20 09:14 AM>Not to be contrary, the thing I don't understand about the
>distance from lens to sensor logic is that the F mount lenses
>project image to a sensor w/o out the lens being 2"
>further from the body like a Z mirrorless w/ adaptor. The only
>thing I see is instead of a mirror like a DSLR the image on
>the sensor now attaches to a mirrorless body which is
>cheaper to manufacture than a DSLR w/ many moving parts. I
>can't comprehend it.
The lenses are designed to focus on a sensor or film a specific distance behind the back of the lens. If you add a spacer - the lens focuses closer to the front of the camera but you lose focus at the longer end. An extension tube does that today.
For an F-mount lens to work on a Z mount sensor, you need a spacer to maintain the distance from the back of the lens to the sensor. That spacer is an FTZ adapter. Without the spacer, you essentially have a negative extension tube. As Mick points out, that extension tube is 1.2 inches long, so it's a relatively large amount of extension. If you had negative extension of 1.2 inches on an F-mount lens, it probably could not focus on anything at all. The spacer is required.Eric Bowles
Director - Nikonians Academy
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#13. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 9
Thu 31-Dec-20 09:22 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 09:24 AM by GBaylisMike, to emphasise Eric and Mick's point about the depth of the cameras, here's a quick comparison shot between a D850 and Z7, showing the distance between the sensor plane and the front mount.
Geoff
Footnote: I don't usually let my cameras get into the state of the D850 here...it has been in the sea and is now quite dead!
Attachment#1 (jpg file)
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#14. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 13
Thu 31-Dec-20 09:30 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 10:37 AM by mklassGeoff, so your D850 is now a Nikon Sea?
Sorry to hear about it. Instead of debating the value of protective filters for our lenses, we should all be thinking about putting our camera in underwater housings!Mick
"The difference between a professional photographer and other photographers is the pro doesn't show you the bad shots."
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
My Nikonians Galleries: https://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/117796See my portfolio.
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#18. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 13
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Thu 31-Dec-20 10:24 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 10:25 AM by mjcmtI understand your point. I suppose Nikon could make a D850/780/500 type camera w/o a mechanical mirror system, but use an electronic viewfinder instead. I'm not holding my breath.
As an amateur photog, no need to move from my D750, 24mm G, 35mm ED G, 180 EDIF to a budget mirrorless Nikon camera yet.
I only shoot for fun, but plan on getting a printer someday to print a few 11x20s.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/michael_tabor/Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph -
#32. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 13
Sun 10-Jan-21 09:28 AM | edited Sun 10-Jan-21 09:33 AM by dagoldstExcellent example photos Geoff.
In Astrophotography, this is a constant, you need to determine the flange back distance and compensate with extensions to get things to focus correctly with all sorts of camera and telescopes. I think people are just used to having their single vendor source do all that work for them in normal photography.
David
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof " - Carl Sagan
https://www.astrobin.com/users/dagoldst
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#8. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 5
Given Nikons long history of design which maintained compatibility with existing lenses, I suspect that was one option they already looked into. Their decision to create an entirely new mount and new lenses has resulted in superior lenses and has been born out given performance reports.
Making changes is not always easy (or cheap) and for a company that has maintained compatibility for years, I am sure it was long and well thought out. They saw the future as mirrorless and chose to make the best design to provide a solid path forward.
Bill
Protect our environment
Shoot it, save it, share it
#10. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 5
If they were to make such a mirrorless design, it essentially would permanently attach an FTZ to the front of the camera. Yes - it's possible - but it's not going to be smaller or lighter. The big downside is it excludes the possibility you could use Z lenses down the road.
For Nikon, it's another product to stock and market. A SKU with another product is probably going to sell for more than the Z7II and FTZ because it's a niche product. I'd price it $300 higher - similar to the D800E vs. the D800. It could be a factory option involving a replacement of an integrated mount. But economics are tough to justify.
The FTZ can simply be left in place on the Z7II or Z6II. If you wanted to use just F-mount lenses, that's fine. I did that just yesterday on a bird walk. I used the 300 f/4 and TC14EII teleconverter with the FTZ on the camera. In my bag I had the Nikon 105 f/2.8 VR for macro and the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 prime for landscapes. I did not carry a Z lens. And I never opened the bag and used either lens.
Eric Bowles
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#20. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 10
Thu 31-Dec-20 10:46 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 10:47 AM by RassieHere's another way of viewing the intent of the OP. Nikon to use an existing DSLR body design and remove the mirror, then replace the OVF with an EVF. If they leave the sensor in its current position one can still continue using the same F-mount lenses, but essentially the camera body is then mirrorless.
In a different world that could have been a way to develop mirrorless cameras but the OEM's skipped that step and completely redesigned the new bodies instead of evolving them from existing DSLR designs.
Creating a mirrorless camera now to accommodate existing F-mount lenses without adapter is a step backward.-
#23. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 20
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Thu 31-Dec-20 11:23 AMWord is Nikon is upgrading their D850 and D500 this next year. I was just curious why it wouldn't be mirrorless. I suppose my answer has been answered in some form here.Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph-
#27. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 23
Thu 31-Dec-20 12:19 PMI'd expect a D850 successor, but not in mirrorless. You already have that camera - the Z7II. And if you prefer standard resolution, that camera is the D780 and it's mirrorless counterpart is the Z6II. So the one remaining gap is a DSLR to replace the D850. There are a lot of updates in the D780, Z7II, and D6 that are not in the D850, so it would be a good upgrade.
The gap in the full frame Z lineup is a counterpart to the D6. That camera would be a direct competitor of the Sony A9II and maybe the Canon R5. It is probably a 24 megapixel camera that would include a much faster frame rate, probably an EN-EL18 family battery, Dual CFExpress cards, and updated AF system. The key is the AF speed and accuracy need to be equivalent to a D6 and that may require some technological advances. The lenses are largely in place with the upcoming f/1.2 lenses already on the roadmap. It needs the 400mm f/2.8 and maybe the 100-400 already on the roadmap.
There is a question on the D500 successor. A D550 or something similar would essentially put the D6 AF system in a DX format along with the dual processor, CFExpress, etc. That should be pretty easy and it probably sells 100,000 cameras in the first year. It's what they did with the D5/D500 - but that was without competition from the Z cameras and the lower volume of the camera market overall. It could benefit from a DX kit lens to replace the 16-80. So volume is maybe 35% of what the D500 had when released. The other question on this lens is the market probably would look for a 200-500 update with a D500 replacement.
The question is about when the Z counterpart of the D500 successor is released. I see that as following the flagship camera - maybe closely following but more likely lagging by a year. Call it a Z80. It's a DX flagship featuring high frame rate, updated AF, updated wifi and Bluetooth, and CFExpress/SD cards. This camera is best released when there is a top DX Z series standard zoom and a 200-600 for wildlife. It also needs a normal range kit lens - a 16-80 Z mount or maybe a 16-55 f/2.8. That suggests a 2022 release at the earliest.
Collectively, these are more cameras than Nikon can put into the market when you consider marketing, production, and retail support. You probably have 2-3 years worth of cameras. The D500 replacement needs to be in 2021 - but does the D850 replacement or D500 replacement come first?Eric Bowles
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#34. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 5
By the way, when D70 was the new camera, I wrote a post here asking why there is a need for a mirror in a digital camera...
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#15. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph
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#16. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 15
Thu 31-Dec-20 10:08 AMAfraid not, Mike.
But the FTZ is a decent compromise that gets you the same thing at a reasonable cost.Mick
"The difference between a professional photographer and other photographers is the pro doesn't show you the bad shots."
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
My Nikonians Galleries: https://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/117796See my portfolio.
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#17. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 16
Thu 31-Dec-20 10:14 AM..and with no reduction in image quality. Let's also remember (as a benefit of going Z/S) that the S teleconverters all perform better than their F mount eiii equivalents too.
GeoffVisit my Nikonians gallery and my personal website: www.geoffbaylisphotography.co.uk
See my portfolio.-
#19. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 17
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Thu 31-Dec-20 10:28 AMAll the points made are very good, but as an amateur photog ultimate quality is not that important. I just enjoy photography.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/michael_tabor/Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph
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#21. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 15
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#22. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 21
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Thu 31-Dec-20 11:19 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 11:25 AM by mjcmtI've not. I'll be thinking of a pre-owned Z body in the future. I thought Nikon would incorporate a mirrorless body as their replacement for D850 and D500 this next year.Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph-
#24. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 22
Thu 31-Dec-20 11:24 AMIf you switch to Live View, you essentially get mirrorless (part way anyway) in either of those cameras. Just no EVF.
A mirrorless F- mount body would be a significant redesign for only a half-assed camera. It would probably not sell well.
Nikon occasionally makes dumb decisions, but they are not stupid.Mick
"The difference between a professional photographer and other photographers is the pro doesn't show you the bad shots."
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
My Nikonians Galleries: https://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/117796See my portfolio.
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#25. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 24
mjcmt Registered since 02nd Nov 2010Thu 31-Dec-20 11:27 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 11:28 AM by mjcmtMy experience is that live view is nothing like mirrorless have had Fuji mirrorless before. In fact I don't use live view because it's cumbersome.Mike
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...now I can photograph
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#26. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 22
Thu 31-Dec-20 11:38 AM | edited Thu 31-Dec-20 11:39 AM by Rassie>I thought Nikon would incorporate a mirrorless body as
>their replacement for D850 and D500 this next year.
I bet that's on the horizon, probably in the not too distant future, but in the Z configuration. Who knows, perhaps even in 2021.
#29. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 15
No loss as a result optical quality of the FTZ. And, when you compare the combined weight of the FTZ adapter with either of the Zii bodies-- it is still less than the weight of any of the DSLRs discussed here.
D500: 26.9 oz
D750: 26.5 oz
D780: 29.7 oz
D850: 32.3 oz
Z6ii: 20.7 oz
Z7ii: 21.7 oz
FTZ: 4.8 oz
Now known as Poppyrazzi for our family---sweet!
#28. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
To start, assume I am photographing the moon with my Z7. I look through the eyepiece to get the moon in the view (more moving the camera all around to capture). Im on a gitzo tripod with wimberley gimbal head.
Once located, I change from eye view finder, to live view. I look for a place to focus, such as the edge of the moon. Looking at craters for example, I zoom in with live view, so I can get a more sensitive focus (or to be more accurate, more ease of visibility of the edge of the moon).
If the FTZ were constructed as a little adapter more like filters, I could see issues with having a hefty lens connected to it and perhaps a reason to construct the Z body with the FTZ built in. But with the FTZ being fairly solid and with a base which can become the connection point on a tripod, it really adds to stability. To be honest, it does not make the connecting any worse than connecting a teleconverter, at least for me.
"Today is the tomorrow that yesterday you spent money like there was no."
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#30. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
erik
#31. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
An added benefit with the Z-series is focus peaking in the viewfinder with manual focus lenses. Combine an excellent Zeiss Milvus or Otus lens with these bodies and you have an ideal setup.
I think the best option would be to gain some field experience with a Z-series body, FTZ adapter, and your favorite F-mount lens. I'm willing to bet you'll be pleased, particularly if you are a fan of the electronic viewfinder.
Herb
Dearborn, MI
#33. "RE: Nikon Mirrorless camera for F-mount lenses w/o adap" | In response to Reply # 0
Creating a new product to support older lenses Nikon will not be selling much longer, and no new versions would be a dead end and money loser for them. A D850 is as good as it ever was, so use that until the added feature of the Z bodies become too compelling to ignore. There is no upside for Nikon to create a camera with the only reason to exist is to support lenses it already made the only profit from years before. For Nikon Z bodies are a chance to become profitable with lower production costs of bodies, plus selling a whole kit of new lenses with wider margins and no competition.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia
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G
I understand Nikon is upgrading D500 and D850 next year. If they want to keep their loyal followers from leaving Nikon for Sony and others this could be a prudent move as there are thousands of D and G lenses out there in use by pros and advanced amateurs.
I think a mirrorless camera specifically for F mounts lenses could keep them financially solvent until the switch to the Z system kicks in.