Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products
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#1. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 0
well, hi doug,
see you on another thread. wish i had seen this before my friend bought his F100 a couple of weeks ago. i was his "consultant...."
quick question: are there any differences in quality between grey market and USA? is this just to point to origin of the product and warranty issues? further more, how about quality difference between a japanese made vs other countries made?
thanks.
no snow. it's just cooooooold here...!
... john
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Every man dies. Not every man really lives.... (Braveheart Movie)
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#2. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 1
Well, if you are really looking for snow, go to western NY, or from what I hear and not, thankfully, from personal experience, western side of MI.
Now, back to the photo question. No, there are no differences between a gray market model versus a US Nikon model, in quality; other than the first letter designation (F versus N). There are some models manufactured by Nikon that are not sold in the US. Case in point is the F80S. In the US, the N80 and N80D are offered; whereas the N80 is a standard camera body, and the N80D includes a databack that imprints date/time information on the frame. The F80S, sold outside the US, offers a greater detail of data information to be printed on the frame, or between frames (one function is the printing of the date and other information between frames). (There are also some different model designations on the F4 in regards to US versus Nikon Worldwide bodies.)
However, from what I have read regarding Nikon, and from what I have seen and heard from people all around the world, the modern Nikon camera models are all built to the same exacting manufacturing specifications. In other words, an F100, F80, F65, etc., gray market camera is manufactured to the same quality standards as the F100, N80, N65, etc., US marketed camera.
The only disadvantage between gray market versus US market Nikon cameras and camera equipment is where repairs have to be performed, and this is only a disadvantage if, a need arises for repair. In this case, of a gray market, you must go outside of Nikon US for repair (no necessarily outside the US), and if you use the right repair facility, this makes no difference. There are many, Nikon approved warranty centers in the US and the World for that matter, who can repair a Nikon camera as well as Nikon US. They will also use Nikon components to repair the camera, if required. In all likelihood, your friend will not require any repair of the camera, and if repair is required, it can be repaired to its fullest functionality by a Nikon authorized repair facility. (For warranty, you must return the camera to the company that sold you the camera, or to their designated repair facility.)
Years ago, there was a very big difference between the prices of Nikon Worldwide and Nikon US; however, from what I have seen lately, there is not as big of a price difference between the two separate entities. As for the actual origin of the product, all Nikon products are produces in the same plants across the world. I would guess that one day a Nikon plant runs the F80 model, the next day the N80 model, with all the internal components being identical, with the only differences being the outer body, where one has a different model number on it. (This is a simplified example of the manufacturing process, they may run F and N series cameras on the same day, one after the other, just trying to say that the internals are the same, only the case is changed. This is similar to the way GM manufacturers trucks. One truck says GMC; the next one is labeled Chevy.)
Now as for being produced in Japan versus Thailand or another country. I have always stated that for manufacturing it matters not where the item is manufactured, it is the quality controls set-up by the corporation, and the employee training that determines the quality of a product. If the employees are trained, the quality control standards are the same, and all components are the same, the product should be the same, no matter where the item is manufactured. Now, as to whether Nikon has the same stringent quality controls and employee training in these other countries, can only be answered by Nikon Corporation. I cannot allude to this, since I have no knowledge of Nikon’s quality controls or employee training. I can assume that Nikon will train and establish quality controls, for their corporation’s success depends on the quality of their products.
Wow, as you can see it can get pretty boring in a hotel in MI when it is very cold, overcast and just plain nasty outside, while I sit here waiting to go see the Lions play the Patriots.
Hope this answered your question, and sorry for the long discourse. Now, I must go walk a mile to the Silverdome, while trying not to freeze this redneck’s rear.
Doug
Doug
--Take only photographs, leave nothing but footprints-- -
#3. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 1
jnscbl Basic MemberThu 23-Nov-00 11:32 AMThanks Doug for your report. Very comprehensive.
This issue of USA vs. Grey market quality seems to reveal our American arrogance more than any other. Since there are Nikonians all over the world, I'm wondering if you are offered "local market" at bargain prices, and "USA market", for which you pay extra for the "higher" quality? I think the answer to this question should put to rest once and for all the question of quality.
--scott
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso
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#6. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 3
Not all Americans are arrogant when it comes to thinking US versus gray market implies a better product. However, enough Americans feel that US is better than gray market due to the name "gray market." There are gray market items sold all over the world that are inferior. In New York, Toronto, and many other cities throughout the world, you can purchase a Rolex for a couple hundred bucks. These are inferior and not really Rolexes; however, they sure look like Rolexes and in fact, they operate as good in some cases as the real thing. So, is it the Americans are arrogant, or is the name tied to gray market Nikons not the correct term to use?
As for arrogance, it is not something only felt by Americans. Other countries feel their products are superior to American made products, in some cases, this is true, in other cases, it is not true. Arrogance, whether it be American, or another nationality only applies to those who do no research on the subject.
Doug
--Take only photographs, leave nothing but footprints---
#7. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 6
jnscbl Basic MemberFri 24-Nov-00 12:29 AMDoug--
I don't know how we digressed from your report on Nikon's distribution channels to counterfeit watches. Be that as it may, you seem to imply that if not arrogance, then ignorance leads an American to conclude that grey market products are inferior. Personally, I would rather be seen as arrogant than ignorant, but that's just because I'm arrogant.
At any rate, it seems a great number of otherwise intelligent American consumers of photographic products maintain the egocentric view that there are two levels of quality: American, and "foreign." I have seen the question over and over, "Is grey market stuff any good?" You and I know that the actual difference is merely who the buyer is at the wholesale level, and who backs the warranty. And this seems to be an American issue. Flipping through the ads in Practical Photography, I don't see a distinction between Nikon UK and grey market.
I'm reasonably certain this misconception is a result of shady business practices of mail-order houses years ago: advertising impossibly low prices, then shipping stripped packages, and cameras and equipment with warranties that would not be honored by US service centers, because they were not Official US merchandise.
Now don't get the idea that I am some bleeding heart liberal. I admit to finding humor (I'm sure you do as well) in the fact that along with phony Rolexes, unsavory vendors in Tokyo, Hong Kong, and "many other cities throughout the world" are swindling arrogant conspicuous consumers with bottles of Jack Black :9 that really contain rotgut Kentucky bourbon. ---scott
--scott
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso
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#9. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 7
Please do not get me wrong, and think that I believe Americans are ignorant remember, I am an American. I guess being trapped in a hotel room on a dreary, cold, downright nasty night in Auburn Hills, MI did not make this a great day. Possibly the word ignorant should be replaced with the word uninformed or unknowedgable.
(To answer another posting, I was with my sons at the Silverdome to witness the Detroit Lions actual win a game. So the side trip from Buffalo to Auburn Hills, MI was a great occasion.)
In my opinion, the biggest problem with the term gray market cameras is the actual term gray market. I would bet, that if you asked most Americans what the term gray market stood for they would answer with an explanation of a type of inferior product. You have to remember that most Americans have a few misconceptions about the term gray market.
One misconception is gray market items are illegally sold counterfeit products. This is brought to the American peoples attention by shows such as 60 minutes, Dateline, etc. In fact, I watched a TV news show a few years ago about illegally sold watches in NY city; how they were illegal to sell due to being counterfeit, less expensive than the actual brand, and they were considered “gray market.”
Americans, thanks to the non-enforcement of NY laws, and the fact that TV news stations like to report on the fraud committed in the city, also have a misconception that NY city retailers are unscrupulous and sell inferior products. Case in point, three months ago one of the large TV news show (Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc., not sure which one), had a follow-up report on purchasing cameras and electronic equipment from NY camera and electronic stores. In this program, they proved how these stores sold merchandise that was outdated at a higher price than you could purchase the item from at another store, how they sold items that only had owner guides written in foreign languages, how the stores would not honor a return of the merchandise, and yes, how these stores sold “gray market” items. They also reported on how the city did not enforce the laws regarding these retailers.
Now, if you take the average American who decides he wants to purchase a camera, he has a few choices. First, I would guess that most cameras are sold via the local camera store at full retail. There is nothing wrong with this, it is convenient, and in almost all cases, the local camera store is reputable and will help the consumer understand their purchase.
Now, another route the person can take is to purchase a photo magazine, then view the retailers’ ads in the rear of the magazine. This is where the consumer can now get confused. The consumer has been told by news shows that “gray market” is inferior, possibly illegal (and in a lot of cases, this is true), and to purchase the item at your own peril. They have also learned through news shows, or from other people who have purchased equipment from some of the non-reputable camera stores in NY, that camera stores in NY are non-reputable and you may get “screwed” purchasing an item from one of these stores.
These purchasers are the ones I refer to as being “uniformed.” I am not saying this in a defaming way, I am just saying they are confused by the facts, and this confusion of information, does not make one arrogant. (I could admit that I fell into this category when purchasing a new computer a month ago. I was ignorant to what I required, I was leery of purchasing via the internet from retailers I never heard of, I viewed magazine ads and became even more confused. Therefore, at that time, I considered myself the uninformed consumer.)
Now in this day-and-age, the consumer can go online to websites like Nikonians and ask questions, and in the case of most websites, they will receive valuable information as to the differences between gray market versus Nikon USA, which camera stores in NY are reputable, and what features a camera will have. These consumers now become knowledgeable on the subject, and understand what the actual differences are in gray market versus Nikon USA (to give an example). They can now make their decision based on knowledge, not on assumptions made by watching TV news shows, or talking with a friend who had an unfavorable experience with a camera store hundreds of miles away from where they live.
(I did the same thing when purchasing my latest computer. I went into computer websites, read the pros and cons of different computers, asked questions by explaining what I was going to do and asking what I needed, asked questions regarding online computer retailers, etc. I was able then to make an informed purchase; purchasing some equipment local, some equipment via the Internet.)
Therefore, I apologize for using the word “ignorant” and understand that “uniformed or unknowledgeable” should be used. I will also agree that there are arrogant Americans out there, but Americans have no patent on that term. Knowledge is the best way to overcome arrogance, and thanks to websites like this one, a person can become knowledgeable by asking questions and receiving answers from very good intentioned, knowledgeable people who actual use the product they are asking about, and have experiences with purchasing camera equipment via reputable retailers through mail order or online.
Hope everyone is having a great holidays, I am headed for the airport to get back to a warmer climate. Hope the weather is good enough to get out and get some photos, since I’m considering trying to get some Bald Eagles this weekend. I heard they are starting to migrate down to places in TN for the winter. (Cannot blame them.)
Doug
Doug
--Take only photographs, leave nothing but footprints--
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#4. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 0
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#5. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 4
LAST EDITED ON Nov-24-00 AT 04:33 AM (GMT)>I am from Canada and there
>is a lot of confusion
>about weather Canadian Nikon products
>are gray market or not.
>There are in fact not
>grey market products even though
>they carry the F prefix.
Very true. Gray market implies an item sold in a country that is not imported via legal or authorized channels. In the case of Nikons sold in the US, if not imported via Nikon USA, they are gray market. If a camera is imported into Canada by Nikon's authorized importer, in this case it is evidently Nikon of Canada, then it is not a gray market item. Same with Germany, England, France, etc.
>American are often confused
Also very true. Some Americans have problems following arrows to little circles. Sorry everyone, couldn't resist... }>
>when
>they see the gold box
>that the lenses and cameras
>come boxed in. These are
>properly imported cameras but only
>sold and warranteed in Canada.
>Many Americans are afraid to
>buy one of these Nikon
>products for fear that they
>cannot be serviced in the
>USA by Nikon. I called
>Nikon Canada directly and they
>confirmed that their products, although
>international, are not gray market
>products. I hope this is
>a helpfull addition.
Very true. If a Nikon is imported into Canada by Nikon of Canada, it is not a gray market camera, even if purchased by an American. It's easier with the pro series cameras, they are all "F," so a person cannot tell if it is gray or Nikon USA unless the serial number is checked.
Nikon USA must have some sort of reciprocal agreement to service Nikons purchased retail in another country and brought into the US by the purchaser.
However, they are within their full legal rights not to service Nikon products purchased in the US, not imported by Nikon USA.
I guess there are some questions yet left in my mind. Will Nikon USA perform warranty repairs on a Nikon purchased from a Canadian retailer via the internet by a person living in the USA at the time of purchase? Also, will Nikon of Canada perform warranty repairs on a Nikon USA models if it is purchased by a Canadian while living in Canada via mail order from the US?
Doug
--Take only photographs, leave nothing but footprints---
#8. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 5
man, the 1st post (doug's) was in june. and now 3 months later, there are massive replies to my "quick question" to doug especially on thanksgiving night....! i'm starting to worry for some of you..... then again, most of you might not be in the US so won't be celebrating thanksgiving like i was with friends and family all day and night....
sorry to hear that you were stuck in a hotel room in MI doug and on thanksgiving. hope you were able to be with a friend or family nevertheless, and at the very least, had a thankful heart...!
thanks for your indept explanation. my friend opted for a F100 made in japan over malaysia.
happy thanksgiving to all (even if you're not in the US)...!
.... john
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Every man dies. Not every man really lives.... (Braveheart Movie)
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#10. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 8
Quick Note.
I did not know that the F100 was made in two different countries. I presumed it was made only in Japan. Therefore, this proves that everyone can learn from websites like this one.
As for the hotel room. I have stayed at this hotel in Auburn Hills so many times, I know the manager and the maintenance manager by their first names. As for a thankful heart...well Detroit did win, and I have a three o'clock flight out of here.
Doug
--Take only photographs, leave nothing but footprints---
#11. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 10
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#12. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 5
>Also very true. Some Americans have problems following arrows to little circles. Sorry everyone, couldn't resist... }>
It's not that, it's the two candidates "haggling" for the presidency... I wonder if I can go into Henry's and "haggle" on the price of the new 80-400VR... Maybe if they do a "recount" or I challenge them in court I'll get a better price...
Cheeri'o...
Frankie...
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#13. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 12
I've suggested they wrestle on prime time TV to break the tie...
Are you ready to rrrrumble?
Oh well, I voted for Nader.
BJ
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#14. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 13
Johnr0836 Basic MemberThu 14-Dec-00 01:05 PMI recently read that Nikon USA was having a "U" prefixed to the serial numbers of the Nikon products they sell in the US. I think the source was the AOL Nikon board.
John
Visit my Nikonians gallery.
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#15. "RE: Gray Market (Nikon Worldwide) verus Nikon USA products" | In response to Reply # 14
jnscbl Basic MemberThu 14-Dec-00 03:03 PMGreat. Next, they'll enter into a marketing agreement with Radio Shack.
--scott
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso
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#16. ""Grey Market"" | In response to Reply # 0
LAST EDITED ON Sep-10-01 AT 12:53 PM (GMT)
Can anyone please tell me.......do I take a chance if I`ll buy any "grey market products" in the USA for use in Scandinavia? I am looking for AF 180mm 2,8 IF ED who is very expensive in Norway. I can easily go to the USA as an employee of an airline company. Where can I buy these products? Do I have to order them by mail or do they have stores for the grey market?
Best regards from Norway.
JP
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#17. "RE: "Grey Market"" | In response to Reply # 16
jrp Charter MemberMon 10-Sep-01 07:07 AMOne of the many reasons why you can get very good prices from online stores is that there are not taxes if delivered outside of their state address. Order online from reputable stores (like B&H), have them ship the goods to some reliable friend's address and go there to pick it up.
B&H, for one, apparently read this thread since their "gray market" products are now labeled "imported" to reduce or eliminate the negative and false connotations.
Have a great time
JRP (Nikonian at the north-eastern Mexican desert) My profile
Previous photographic journey, before Nikonians: A Brief Love Story
Have a great time! 😉
JRP
Founder & Administrator. Mainly at the north-eastern Mexican desert Gallery, My Portfolio
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#18. "RE: "Grey Market"" | In response to Reply # 16
JM Registered since 01st Mar 2007Mon 10-Sep-01 03:05 PMAs I understand the situation the only place you can NOT get service for a GREY product is USA. I have not picked up on other areas that have used isolationist policies to cut their market off from the world. The NIKON USA policy is an attempt to manipulate the market by control of after sale service. Where this is a problem is in their state-of-the-art equipment where parts are not available to independent service shops yet. The F5 and maybe the F100 with the N65 and N80 are in this boat. Lenses and accessories should not be a problem as parts and expertese are commonly available at local indy shops.
As a citizen of the United States of America I am ashamed by this type of rampant capitalism to the detriment of the consumer and am sorry the misused term American paints everyone in the Western Hemisphere with the same brush as the marketeers of the 'free market' USA system.
Jeff Markus
JM
The Chicagoan-
#19. "RE: "Grey Market"" | In response to Reply # 18
Jeff, I do not believe Nikon is attempting to control the market for after sake service, they just want Americans, living in the USA to purchase Nikon USA imported cameras and camera equipment. Yes, that is capitalism, but I do not personally see anything wrong with this. You state you have not picked up on other companies having the same policies, well, there are not that many industries where items are imported by independent stores bypassing the authorized US importer. In fact, I cannot think of any except for film.
As for the after sales service, any reputable camera repair shop can repair any Nikon camera provided they have trained personal. Parts for all cameras including an F5 or D1x would be available from two sources: one, Nikon Worldwide since there are no differences in the internals of Nikon cameras, and two, Nikon USA. I do not believe Nikon USA would deny any repair shop any part since this could lead to a restraint of trade lawsuit. (GM, Chrysler and Ford understand what a restrain of trade lawsuit can do to one’s balance sheet.)
Doug
--Take only photographs, leave nothing but footprints--
NC, second week of October, 2001... -
#20. "RE: "Grey Market"" | In response to Reply # 18
LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-01 AT 02:54 PM (GMT)Thanks a lot for your replies. As you might understand, we are not used to shop like this. Anyway you are a little lucky too All these products are a lot more expensive in Scandinavia. So, I better go to the USA and buy some Nikon-parts. Sorry about my poor english.
***** My warmest condolences to all Americans *****
***** Our hearts are with you all *****
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G
Several US camera retailers import and sell camera products that are not imported into this country by Nikon USA. These products are known as Gray Market, and they are imported into the US from sources; other than Nikon USA. In most cases, these Gray Market Nikon Worldwide products will cost less than the comparable products imported by Nikon USA. It is not unlawful to sell these products in the US; however, Nikon USA WILL NOT service these products even for non-warranty repairs at your cost.
Reason? Nikon USA wants you, as a US resident, in the US, to purchase a Nikon USA product, while living in the US. They do not want you purchasing a Nikon Worldwide product since they earn no profit on your purchase. However, if you were in another country and you purchased a Nikon product, Nikon USA will service the product, if you can show proof that the product was purchased while you were in another country where Nikon Worldwide cameras and/or equipment are sold. Why? It is not a Gray Market product if it is purchased outside the USA.
In most amateur Nikon camera bodies, the only differences between the corresponding camera bodies is in the model designation (name). For Nikon USA, all model designations start with the letter "N," for Nikon Worldwide models, the model designation starts with the letter "F." If the model has a letter after the numeral as in the Nikon N90s/F90x, an "S" is used in Nikon USA models, while in most instances an "X" is used in Nikon Worldwide models.
The following are the latest Nikon USA amateur models and their corresponding Nikon Worldwide models:
N50* F50
N60 F60
N70* F70
N80 F80
N90s** F90x**
* Nikon USA model has been discontinued; I assume the Nikon Worldwide model has also been discontinued.
** Previous models were known as N90/F90. Camera bodies were updated and released as N90s/F90x.
Nikon professional model cameras do not have dissimilar model designations between Nikon USA and Nikon Worldwide. In the professional line, the F100 and F5 carry the same designation. Therefore, it is more difficult to establish if the model is Nikon USA or Nikon Worldwide.
Now, if you do purchase a Gray Market Nikon Worldwide product from a reputable camera store (such as B&H, Adorama, etc.), the camera store frequently offers a warranty on the product through their store. In some cases, the store has their own repair facility, in other cases they will send the product out for repair with an independent camera/camera equipment repair facility such as Mack Camera Repair. This store warranty repair has analogous terms as a Nikon USA warranty, excluding in some cases the length of the warranty.
When purchasing a Nikon product, evaluate the prices between a Gray Market Nikon Worldwide product versus the Nikon USA product. Depending on the strength of the US dollar, during certain times the Gray Market Nikon Worldwide product may not be that much less expensive than the corresponding Nikon USA product.
A few other items to note regarding Gray Market Nikon Worldwide products versus products imported by Nikon USA. One, the Gray Market Nikon Worldwide product may be supplied with a multi-language Owner's Operating Guide; whereas, the Nikon USA product will usually be supplied with an English version only. (Note: This is not always true with lenses and other products. In some cases, the Gray Market product will have an English only manual.)
Two, the Gray Market Nikon Worldwide product may not be supplied with the same items as the product imported by Nikon USA. For example, the Nikon USA product may be supplied with batteries, while the Gray Market Nikon Worldwide product may not be supplied with batteries. There could also be other differences in what is supplied with the products.
A few suggestions on purchasing a Nikon product. Always make sure you comprehend what your are purchasing. Is the product imported as a Gray Market product or does Nikon USA import it? Some camera stores are notorious for advertising Gray Market prices and not informing you of that when you order the item. If you are ordering from a Popular Photography Magazine ad, read the fine print at the bottom of the page. In some cases, this small print at the bottom of the page asserts that Nikon USA products will cost more than the prices shown in the ad. In some cases, the advertisers will have designations, in easily read type, which assert all camera bodies are "Nikon USA" models for example.
So, if you are ordering by mail, investigate the store you will be ordering from. Also, make sure you comprehend what they are selling you; Gray Market Nikon Worldwide or Nikon USA. There are some very reputable camera stores that advertise in Popular Photography (and other Photo magazines); however, there are many non-reputable camera stores that advertise in these magazines too. So, be cautious when ordering; "Caveat Emptor."
I trust this information helped clear up the dissimilarity between Gray Market Nikon Worldwide and Nikon USA products. If you have any further questions or suggestions, please post them.
Doug