Since the announcement time for a new Nikon looks to be this week it got me thinking. Do you think it will be enough of a difference for you to upgrade from the D700?

I originally got the D700 because the D3s was nowhere in sight nearly 2 years ago when I wanted to upgrade from the D300. It always seemed that the D700 appealed to two types of users: those who wanted a D3 and couldn't afford/justify it and those who couldn't find a D3/D3s. But with a new camera potentially out it opens the question to whether to upgrade or not.

I go back and forth on it. Although honestly I'm more drawn to the rumored specs of the D4 than rumored ones of the D800. As an amateur, though, I have a hard time justifying the cost. Of course, I don't expect peons like me will even see one in stock for half a year or more so I have plenty of time to justify it.

Time will tell for me. The D4 also seems like it would fit my idea of a D700 upgrade but the form factor of the D4 does not fit my needs or interests. I have a D2Hs and use it often and find the form factor very usable and easy to handle, but it is large and my D700 upgrade needs to stay in the smaller form factor for portability (travel) reasons.

As I contemplate the rumored specs and review how I've been using my cameras over this last year, I'm appreciating my D700 even more.

Best Regards,
Roger

>I go back and forth on it. Although honestly I'm more drawn to
>the rumored specs of the D4 than rumored ones of the D800. As
>an amateur, though, I have a hard time justifying the cost. Of
>course, I don't expect peons like me will even see one in
>stock for half a year or more so I have plenty of time to
>justify it.

HEY . . . don't be dissing us peons.

Anyway, the D700 remains such a great camera, capable of consistently producing such stellar image quality, that smart thinking dictates skipping a D800 AFAIC. I'm personally done with D3-size camera bodies too, because no matter how avid I get about my photography, the notion of wandering cities and exploring them with my camera gear is no longer an attractive prospect with the weight of a Dx body.

The rumored camera bodies may be announced on January 6 - a number of Nikonians, pundits and photgraphy journalists have touted a Dx release first after all the disaster recovery in order to meet the pros needs for the upcoming Olympic Games in London - but I don't understand how Nikon could not announce two bodies and even come close to fully supplying the channels given the current state of Nikon's disaster recovery efforts, factory rebuilding/equipment supply efforts, parts supply & manufacturing re-starts and reintegration efforts and so on.

It's all happening, gradually, but adequately filling even the reduced demand in the channels (in light of the ongoing global retail downturn) remains a huge challenge for Nikon and many other companies. If Nikon pulls off anything better than that over the next couple of months, an enormous number of industry people will be seriously and mightily impressed for good reason.

Hopefully though, Friday will not come and go with the same silence as all the previous false alarms.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

I've read most of the rumors (I think), and I have yet to see any price guesses. For me it all hinges on price.

Now don't go telling me that I must be blind and that the prices have been posted everywhere - maybe I have had a psychological block against what I have seen so I refuse to acknowledge them!

In any case, I'm just pretty sure that I am not going to be able to afford either a D800 or a D4 this year, like I said it all hinges on price.

Tom
D5000IR, V1, Oly OM-D E-M5
Nikkor Zooms: AF-S 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 VR, VR, AF-S 18-135 f/3.5-5.6
Nikkor primes: 24 f/2.8Ai-S, 28 f/2.8D, Micro 60 f/2.8, 85 f/1.4D, Nikkor-C 500 f/8 Refl.
Nikon 1 lenses: 10mm f/2.8, 10-30mm f/3.5-5.6 VR, 30-110mm f/3.8-5.6.
Voigtlander 58mm f/1.4, Sigma 70-300 Macro f/3.5-5.6.
Oly 12-42mm f/3.5-5.6, 12-50mm f/3.5-6.3, 12mm f/2.0, 45mm f/1.8, 75mm f/1.8.
Lumix 20mm f/1.7, 14-140mm f/4.0-5.8, 100-300mm f/4.0-5.6
Gitzo GT3541L, Manfrotto MT293A4, MP 680B
Markins M-20, RRS BH-25 Pro

Yes I will upgrade my D700 to a D800 if it is no more than $3K and if it is no more than 24mgpx and has at least as good ISO performance. I do not want a camera with what strikes me as useless megapixels (although I will listen to arguments) that just will consume space and slow down my computer. I see no value in it.

I also agree with comments regarding "form factor", size and weight, of the probable D4. I am not a professional and the current D700 plus a good lens is weight enough. Not to mention the likely costs of a D4.

For those of us who just enjoy photography,rather than those who most compete against other photographers for business, there is a cost/benefit curve that is maxing out. In other words, the costs of a D700 produce x benefits. If I spent two or three times that on a D4, how much additional benefit would I realize in my photography? I imagine not very much. If you are a professional and you may acquire business or not lose business by saying "I have the best camera" then the cost/benefit curve looks very different.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

To me the D4 seems the natural upgrade to the D700 more than the D800. I get the feeling that the D800 is really the successor to the D3x and the D4 for the D700/D3(s). I have to wonder if Nikon will still produce a budget minded D4 like the D700. I think it would be a mistake if they didn't but they may be changing their strategies.

I've been reading and thinking about the replies in this and other various upgrade threads. Unfortunately it's given me a panic attack .

The basis of the attack is "where is this all going", "what am I going to do when my D700 wears out", "should I buy another D700 now", "is there a plateau and when is enough, enough", "What me worry?".

Sometimes these second order speculations (speculate on the speculations) are fun. This is the first time I'm thinking that at these $5-7K price tags, there needs to be a point at which the technology and interest can survive for much longer than just a refresh cycle. The current business models doesn't support that and at some point (maybe after this cycle) there is some cash in Nikon's bank to weather the plateau.

Anyway, this is likely totally unintelligible by now. My crystal ball is broken.

Best Regards,
Roger

>I've been reading and thinking about the replies in this and
>other various upgrade threads. Unfortunately it's given me a
>panic attack .
>
>The basis of the attack is "where is this all
>going", "what am I going to do when my D700 wears
>out", "should I buy another D700 now", "is
>there a plateau and when is enough, enough", "What
>me worry?".
>
>Anyway, this is likely totally unintelligible by now. My
>crystal ball is broken.

I think the biggest problem caused by speculation is that it feeds corporate product marketing strategies. The more we speculate, the more we build pressure on ourselves to consider yet another purchase.

At the recent 2011 Landscape Photographer of the Year exhibition in London, 10 of the Canon shooters won with entries made using 4 year old (and older) Canon DSLR bodies. Of the Nikon shooter who won, 15 of them used 3 year old (and older) DSLR camera bodies.

The same thing is true, more or less, about the 2011 Wildlife Photographer of the Year competition and the 2011 Enviromental Photographer of the Year competition. We all need to give our heads a shake. It's the photographer, not the gear.

One of the main reasons that non-pros (photographers who don't earn their living from photography), buy the latest new gear is to help goose/juice up/re-motivate themselves to get out and shoot. It's a rather expensive motivator I'd say.

If there are people out there who already own a D300/D300s, D700 or D3 and are complaining that they can't make good photos or that their photos lack something, then they're people who have poor eyes or who haven't educated themselves about exposure or who are struggling with certain photographic concepts and need photography lessons or photography club membership, or who may love photography but simply can't see composition and framing. Replacing their existing gear with shiny new stuff or the latest new thing won't change any of that.

The greatest and most computationally intelligent autofocus and autoscene sensing and auto white balance modes can never improve a lousy composition of a boring or inconsequential subject in unremarkable light.

Poor manual or semi-manual exposure choices, poor lighting, the wrong lens filter, glare that could be prevented with a lens hood, shooting field sports at a shutter speed of 1/50s, shooting portaits at f/22 and a vast array of other nonsense doesn't change (or improve) just because someone spends $5000 on a D3 (or D400 or D800 or D4, or whatever).

Knowledge about the craft of photography, education about applying that knowledge, practice and critique are the things that help improve our photography. Any would-be photographer (at any level, from beginner to wanna-be pro), who doesn't get that, I think, usually struggles almost endlessly with photography or otherwise remains unsatisfied with photography.

So I feel that unless some serious photographer has a very well defined and specific technical requirement which can only be met by some in-built feature in a new camera body, and if the photographer already has a D300 or something newer, that the latest new body release at this point in the state of camera body development is a pure and irredeemable waste of money.

That the camera makers have dug themselves into a deep hole by subscribing to a pervasive financial model which requires constant new product releases to drive ever-increasing revenue streams is not my problem.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Probably the most well reasoned summary of the subject I've ever seen. I'm a better photographer now than I was 5 years ago, but, I'm still not all that good and it certainly is not because of my D700 or my lenses, or support, or Speedlight and never will be. No matter how good I get (Ha!), a D700 will likely still be more camera than my skills require and it certainly is now.

New York Nikoner
My Nikonians Gallery

"Insanity is repeating the same process expecting a different result" Albert Einstein

NAS can go into remission, but, it is incurable.

Of all the things to improve in photography the camera is the least important as you say. Upgrading self, technique, and lenses end up being bigger wins in that order. Even so, I wouldn't think less of people who upgrade because it's fun for them. So long (in my opinion) as they are using discretionary funds that aren't taking away from their family or personal responsibilities and obligations.

But different people have different motivations. I certainly don't really need more than a D700 or D300 but I might upgrade anyway. Part of it is that I am a bleeding edge kind of guy (it's a common personality type of us software developers) and part of it is that I don't have a family so I can afford to play if I want to, lol.

>
>So I feel that unless some serious photographer has a very
>well defined and specific technical requirement which can only
>be met by some in-built feature in a new camera body, and if
>the photographer already has a D300 or something newer, that
>the latest new body release at this point in the state of
>camera body development is a pure and irredeemable waste of
>money.
>
>That the camera makers have dug themselves into a deep hole by
>subscribing to a pervasive financial model which requires
>constant new product releases to drive ever-increasing revenue
>streams is not my problem.
>

Hi Howard,

I enjoy your well thought out responses and if you are saying let your purchases be driven by your requirements, then I completely agree. I think what I'm saying in my usual backhanded manner is that I don't have any requirements that my D700 can't handle. My most recent photography projects are aimed at further stretching my skills into my camera's capabilities - I haven't exceeded them.

While the business model is not my immediate concern, how it manifests itself in usable product does interest me. It's a complex model for a product that as we know it will likely plateau - the D700 is close go good enough right now. To move beyond the D700 to D3s (an incremental technology gap) is about a $3K premium and that's an extremely limited supply. It seems reasonable that the next offering will be at an even larger premium. Nikon eventually created the FM2/FE2 "volkswagen" models to serve the enthusiasts. I wonder/muse if we might eventually see an enthusiasts FX camera. Maybe in a couple of generations, we'll see the D700+ reintroduced.

Anyway, I enjoyed your evaluation.

To wit older DSLR. I was again review images last night taken with my D200. I did some fun things with that camera. I'd likely still have it if the D200 would have had a bit better highISO performance.

Roger

The performance of the D700 by far exceeds my own photographic capabilities and I shall keep this camera till it breaks. It would be quite educational for me to learn in which respect the "eager up graders" are limited by the D700 in their quest for photographic excellence.

Tristan

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

I am no expert by any means but I cant imagine the average photographer needing to upgrade from the d700 unless they print really big. I print 17X22's from my d700 all the time and have never had a quality issue. I know that's not huge but how many people print that big unless there landscape pro's? For me if the opportunity arises to get a d3s or d3x at a deep discount once the proposed d4 comes out I think that would be the only way to get me to upgrade.

Just my two cents

What's funny about this conversation is that everyone is attempting talk themselves out of upgrading. "I don't need it! I don't need it! I don't need it!" It is sort of a group therapy session... "I won't take another drink, I swear it!" My son-in-law reminded me a week ago when I told him I wouldn't upgrade to a new camera, I had said that before. He has the D200 which I gave him after I bought the D300. My son has the D300, which I said was all that I will ever need, that I gave him after I bought the D700. Why don't they believe me?

I wonder six months from now how many of these self-convincing statements will hold up. We may well hear "Oh, well I gave in and bought it anyway!"

Time will tell.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

We also heard a lot of similar statements from DX people (including myself) about moving over to FX.

Well the D4 is not a rumor anymore. See https://wellsfargoadvisors.mworld.com/m/m.w?lp=GetStory&id=587442381.

Why it is on the Wells Fargo site, who knows?

Now I would by a D800 version of that camera, as the D700 was to the D3. But, I don't think they are going to give us that gift again.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

I would maybe upgrade the D700 to a D800, but not to a D4, as I already have a D3s. It will just depend on the features of the D800.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

>Well the D4 is not a rumor anymore. See
>https://wellsfargoadvisors.mworld.com/m/m.w?lp=GetStory&id=587442381.
>
>Why it is on the Wells Fargo site, who knows?

. . . because Wells Fargo is, among other things, an investment bank which regularly publishes announcements of interest to the financial markets and retail markets?

>Now I would by a D800 version of that camera, as the D700 was
>to the D3. But, I don't think they are going to give us that
>gift again.

Gift? It's not a gift - not even metaphorically or intellectually - at predicted pricing at upwards of $3,000.

The D4 announcement 'leak' lists a price of $6,000. Has everyone taken leave of their senses?

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

>Has everyone taken leave of their senses?
>
Probably. Unfulfilled NAS has that effect on people. It been a while since we had a new pro body, so it has been building fro some time.

In any event, my guess is that Nikon has the pricing right and the market will support it. People will #### (as always) that Nikon is gouging. If they don't sell, then the price will drop until Nikon feels that it is unsustainable.

Supply and demand is a wonderful thing! Everyone needs to make their own value determination. Unlike health insurance, purchasing one of these is not required.


Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

>The D4 announcement 'leak' lists a price of $6,000. Has
>everyone taken leave of their senses?

The EOS-1DX is rumoured to be launching at $6,800...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
Check out the Nikonians Team pages

>>The D4 announcement 'leak' lists a price of $6,000. Has
>>everyone taken leave of their senses?
>
>The EOS-1DX is rumoured to be launching at $6,800...

I repeat, has everyone taken leave of their senses? Seems to me that street/shop prices of other Canon bodies have frequently been lower, model-for-model, than Nikon bodies over the past decade.

They're all too expensive. The competing higher and lower price comparisons are irrelevant and inadvertently deceiving, because such comparisons sometimes make some people think, "Oh well, that $6K price is okay then!" It is not. It may be what the market will bear, but it is nonetheless absurd.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Howard,

Why is it absurd? I there are new features and an extremely capable camera, and people value it as worth the price, why do you think the price is too high?

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com
or
Visit my nikonians gallery

Interestingly.. the link says:
This story is no longer available.
https://wellsfargoadvisors.mworld.com/m/m.w?lp=GetStory&id=587442381

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>Why is it absurd? I there are new features and an extremely
>capable camera, and people value it as worth the price, why do
>you think the price is too high?

I think the price is too high because I believe to be much more arbitrarily chosen that any of us would like to believe. I feel that at $6K, Nikon has firmly addressed the fact that the Dx series bodies have attracted interest from an echelon luxury goods consumers, not just primarily working pros.

I have already expressed more than I should about a camera which still hasn't been officially announced by Nikon.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

It is hard for us to judge what is a reasonable price for this camera. We do not know the research and development costs, how those costs will be amortized over time and units, etc.

Also, this is a true "professional" camera which means that the purchases are expensed against a corporate budget and represent a capital investment that will be accounted against taxes and will be amortized over time in the company budget. This is true whether the purchase is by a good sized company or by an individual professional photographer. What is sensible is what works economically in terms of the expense versus the return. That is the analysis that every professional has to make. My guess is that it will be sensible for most professional who are committed to the Nikon system. It will similarly, not be sensible for amateurs like me.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

Actually, it doesn't really matter. Reasonable price is an individual determination. The company makes an educated guess at the price point that maximizes profit. They aren't running a charity after all.

The more I look at the D4 the more I may upgrade to it and sell my D700. I don't think the D800 is going to be the successor to the D700 but really the D700 version of the D3x (essentially if not exactly).

Is it a sensible choice for me to buy a D4? If you ask me, maybe it is. But since it's my wallet it doesn't matter if anyone else thinks its sensible. Of course, if I were married or had children my estimation of whether it's sensible would probably be different...

>It is hard for us to judge what is a reasonable price for
>this camera. We do not know the research and development
>costs, how those costs will be amortized over time and units,
>etc.

. . . and why should we care. Just as you speculate on these things, so too do I speculate that Nikon is targeting the D4 not only at professional photographers but also at the luxury market. In other words, a $6K retail price for its own sake.

>Also, this is a true "professional" camera which
>means that the purchases are expensed against a corporate
>budget and represent a capital investment that will be
>accounted against taxes and will be amortized over time in the
>company budget. This is true whether the purchase is by a good
>sized company or by an individual professional photographer.
>What is sensible is what works economically in terms of the
>expense versus the return. That is the analysis that every
>professional has to make. My guess is that it will be sensible
>for most professional who are committed to the Nikon system.

Your thoughts seem logical on their face, but there's an inherent contradiction I think. By your logic, why should Nikon not price a new pro body at $10K instead? After all, if the primary considerations include amortization, business expense deduction and so on, why stop at $6K? Frankly too, professional photographers do not automatically always look at every new body released by the system maker they prefer.

I respect your approach, but I must refrain from any further comment or expression of opinion until after an official Nikon announcement. Somehow, in this thread, I allowed myself to be sucked into a discussion about yet another rumor. Must stop that.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Howard,

When it comes to pricing decisions there are many factors all of which go into the stew of the decision making. Why not price it at 10K? Because they know, or I presume they judge at least, that the market would not be willing to pay that price. You're right that professionals don't necessarily go out and buy every new camera. That is why they have to keep it in a price range that seem reasonable to the professional, or very high end amateur ("luxury market" as you say) and at the same time returns their investment costs.

I just got back from Macau, HK and Zhuhai, China. Amazing how many people were walking around with high end DSLRs including 3DS's, etc. I think it is somewhat of a status symbol over there and I have no doubt with all the money flowing there, a good number will go to luxury buyers who simply want the prestige of the latest and greatest camera.

Markets aren't rational, are they?

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

Larry, this is verging on nonsense, or perhaps approaching inadvertent sophistry. I cannot abide the touted $6K price tag. I believe that any attempt on the part of prospective consumers to justify such a price merely demonstrates either far too much brand loyalty or far too much consumerism. Let's wait for the actual announcement from Nikon. Maybe the company will surprise us by releasing the D4 at 'only' the $5K intro price of the D3.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

I wouldn't expect that. The dollar has lost considerable value against the yen in the 3.25 years since the D3 was announced.

>I wouldn't expect that. The dollar has lost considerable
>value against the yen in the 3.25 years since the D3 was
>announced.

Arrrgh! Larry - the whole world is not the U.S. dollar. Yet we see other companies (I would never suggest that Nikon is alone in its apparent pricing attitude) that sell what suddenly seem to be regarded as pro/luxury goods at unreasonably high prices. The Canadian dollar has not lost ground against the yen, yet Canadian prices for the same, niche goods are also being set at what I consider to be unreasonbly high.

The period since the D3 was announced is irrelevant to me. As well, I don't live in the U.S., my business is not based in the U.S. and I don't think about the U.S. from one day to the next. In any event, currency based pricing theories, as you've put it, are only one part of any story. And since you brought it up, what about the recessionary U.S. economy? If Nikon is not taking lower buying power into account, to me it's just another indication that it cares as much or more about the monied luxury market as/than is does about the pro photographer market.

So the D3 was $5K when it came out? In the intervening three years and embedded in some D4 specification there's justification in strictly practical terms for the new model introduction at a 20% higher comparative price? I don't think so.

I am one to look balefully at photographic equipment buyers who quest for deals and the lowest conceivable prices so desperately that they end up attempting to do business with online 'sellers' who ship grey market, unboxed, warranty-less camera bodies. Far from it, I tout the benefits of dealing with bona fide, authorized dealers with real overhead, real customer service and the financial stability and inventory protection to be able to exchange the occasional bad product over the counter without question or hassle. That all means (unfortunately only little more than a small, frequent customer discount off retail list pricing, but perhaps no discount at all on hot new product releases. All that said though, I call a touted $6K retail price for a D4 an absolute charade/ripoff/gouge.

Nikon, and other companies selling top-of-the-line and best-of-breed products rely on a certain segment participating online in forums such as Nikonians to whip themselves into a minor lather over new releases. I say step off for a few months. Six thousand dollars for a D4. Give me a break. It's unsupportable.

We'll see what the actual announcement says soon enough. Nikon is press conferencing about something or other almost as I write this.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

I would be going from a D200 to a D4 or D800. I will be disappointed if the D4 is in the D3 price range or higher and if the D800 is right up there in price. If that were to happen and there was no $3000 full frame option, I would just wait for the D400 or whatever the next D300s upgrade will be created.

Shoot nature with respect and don't trample it or startle its inhabitants.

>I would be going from a D200 to a D4 or D800. I will be
>disappointed if the D4 is in the D3 price range or higher and
>if the D800 is right up there in price. If that were to happen
>and there was no $3000 full frame option, I would just wait
>for the D400 or whatever the next D300s upgrade will be
>created.

Well said! We'll have to wait and see - Nikon and other camera makers pushed their products roadmaps out by many months to compensate for the delays imposed by earthquakes, tsunamis and floods in Japan and Thailand respectively. Like you though, I too expect Nikon to push FX downward into its model line up. I expect to see a sub-$2K FX body sometime in the next 18 months, not just evolution of the Dxxx and Dx FX lines.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

No upgrade for me. I'm still discovering new things that my D700, D70, F5 Anniversary and F2A can do!
Or maybe I'm just getting older....(but still loving photography!)

"Great things are not done by impulse but by a series of small things brought together." Vincent Van Gogh
Check out my Nikonians image gallery at http://www.tinyurl.com/f5titan

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

I love it. You've got the best camera body, IMO, from each generation.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Call me frugal, but a D4 is not in my future. If I dropped $6K on a camera body I would also have to factor in the cost of the divorce! While the Specs at B&H show this to be a capable camera, especially the frame rate and ISO range. I just think $6K is just too much for a camera. I do not care about video and I am very happy with my D700. I note the D4 has a different size battery so you would need a new charger and new batteries as well. I am afraid the D700 replacement will be north of $3K also.

Bob Baldassano
My Nikonians Gallery

"Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the
camera"

Retirement is a gift of time - Don't waste it!

>I
>just think $6K is just too much for a camera. I do not care
>about video and I am very happy with my D700. I note the D4
>has a different size battery so you would need a new charger
>and new batteries as well. I am afraid the D700 replacement
>will be north of $3K also.

Right on all counts I fear. I'm absolutely ticked off with Nikon because of the D4 pricing.

And where did the AE-L/AF-L button go on the D4? I can't see it in any of the available photos so far.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

>Right on all counts I fear. I'm absolutely ticked off with
>Nikon because of the D4 pricing.

You've made your point on that, Howard.

>And where did the AE-L/AF-L button go on the D4?

I was wondering that, too.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
Check out the Nikonians Team pages

The AE/AF Locks are handled like the D7000.

I don't think so. The D7000 has an "AE-L/AF-L" button on the back of the camera. I sure don't see that button on the back of the D4.

Ned
A Nikonians Team Member

-----------------------------
Visit my Travel Photography Blog and my Galleries.

>The AE/AF Locks are handled like the D7000.

I don't get it then. The D7000 has a dedicated AE-L/AF-L button that can be reprogrammed as an AF-On button, or for various combined and separate AE-L and AF-L modes (or for a flash lock). So Nikon has left the AF-On button for programming, and left pros to fiddle with configs instead of keeping a dedicated AE-L/AF-L button. IMO, that's needlessly dumb.

Then again, with the camera so loaded with enhanced video features and another/second scroller on the back, the designers may have simply run out of room for a dedicated AE-L/AF-L button. I'm not impressed with the decision.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
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What I read is that you press the button on the AF switch and then use the sub command dial.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I want the functions totally separate, plus that doesn't seem like a satisfactory substitution for a dedicated button. That being said, I waiting to see what the camera is like overall. In many ways it looks amazing, but in other ways, I'm not so sure.

Ned
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>That being said, I
>waiting to see what the camera is like overall. In many ways
>it looks amazing, but in other ways, I'm not so sure.

Is the D4 now a jack of all trades, but master of too few? Now I'm being needlessly critical for sure.

C$6299 according to Nikon Canada. C$250 (adjusted) more than the U.S. price of US$5999. We are agog. C$1100 more than a D3s (C$5199).

It looks like the D4 actually has a combination of still shooting speed and enhanced hi-def video shooting features and functions, and networking/connectivity features that both staff and independent photographers shooting major sports events (especially the upcoming 2012 Olympics in London) will absolutely love. There's no other camera on the market now (or scheduled to be on the market before the Olympics) which offers such a productively complete package for professional use at the Olympics.

The missing AE-L/AF-L button is making me curious enough to be genuinely eager to get my mitts on the test unit at Vistek (hopefully shortly after CES). I've already made my demanding phone call.

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>>Right on all counts I fear. I'm absolutely ticked off
>with
>>Nikon because of the D4 pricing.
>
>You've made your point on that, Howard.

You think so?

>>And where did the AE-L/AF-L button go on the D4?
>
>I was wondering that, too.

. . . and where's the USB 3 port? Looks like the D4 is still at USB 2.0 hi-speed. Meh!

The resolution offered by the D3/D3s and certainly the D3x exceed the print requirements of the very best quality newspapers and magazines in the world. So if the D4 is still being aimed at studio pros, sports and PJ photogs, USB 3 data transfer capability should be front and centre IMO and its absence is a big omission I think. Can't fix that with a firmware update either.

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It does have an ethernet port though Howard. According to how it's implemented, that could be much more useful than a USB 3 port.

Ned
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>It does have an ethernet port though Howard. According to how
>it's implemented, that could be much more useful than a USB 3
>port.

Gigabit ethernet, yes. Standard 10/100 ethernet, no. Problem too is that tethered shooting is currently developed aaround ports other than ethernet. Of course any networking built into a device brings with it the prospect of hacking prevention and security needs. I can imagine the complaints. Still, networking in a pro camera has its legit uses.

Buttons have moved around on the back of the D4. The AE-L/AF-L button is MIA. Pros (and many of the rest of us) don't want to have to get used to a new UI/UE and functionality. We want a smooth transition to successive models. At these prices, Nikon - and Canon too, make no mistake about it - should be babying their pro customers, not imposing needless learning curves for previously perfectly familiar, important functions. Missing AE-L/AF-L button indeed.

EDITED/ADDED: Meh(!) again. I checked the detailed spec at imaging.nikon.com. The wired ethernet port is IEEE802.3u standard (100BASE-TX). Slower than USB 2.0 hi-speed. Why not Gigabit ethernet!?! My guess is a dumb cost/licensing decision; certainly nothing to do with forward or backward network compatibility. Gigabit ethernet is solid.

Also, there's no speed/class spec for the optional new wireless WT-5 transmitter. So I suspect 802.11a/b/g, in the absence of any spec-brag about 802.11n. Slow again, despite the fact that 'n' is cheap and fast and the IEEE 'n' spec has been final for quite a while. If I'm correct, it's just a false economy that D4 owners will have to live with.

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>Also, there's no speed/class spec for the optional new
>wireless WT-5 transmitter. So I suspect 802.11a/b/g, in the
>absence of any spec-brag about 802.11n. Slow again, despite
>the fact that 'n' is cheap and fast and the IEEE 'n' spec has
>been final for quite a while. If I'm correct, it's just a
>false economy that D4 owners will have to live with.
>

It supports the faster "n" standard, in addition to the slower legacy ones.

Rick Walker

My photos:
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Download from our library of Image Doctor podcasts here

I kinda have the feeling that you're not going to buy this camera, Howard. Neither am I.

But if I made my living this way, I probably would.

Now we wait for the D800, hopefully next month, and then we can debate what us amateur/enthusiasts will do with something hopefully much more realistically priced.

I would sure love to have the same sensor but in the smaller form and with a few less bells and whistles.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

>I kinda have the feeling that you're not going to buy this
>camera, Howard. Neither am I.

I confess to being unreasonably irritated by the D4.

>Now we wait for the D800, hopefully next month, and then we
>can debate what us amateur/enthusiasts will do with something
>hopefully much more realistically priced.

Yes. Hope springs eternal.

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I might consider the D800 mainly because it has more megapixels and, I can't believe I'm going to say this, video. There are times I wish my D700 had video, but I usually have my Canon SD950 point and shoot with me that handles that.

So, I think I'd use the D800 and use the D700 as a backup camera or the D700 as the main camera and the D800 as a video camera. The D4 is $6000 and I don't make money from my camera...yet.

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I think I will keep my D700 and buy a 400mm f2.8 instead of a new body.

The D4 looks great, and I have no doubt it will be brilliant.

Kind regards

G

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If Nikon follows the same time line as with the D3 and D700, it will be December, 2012 before a D800 is announced.

I was waiting for a D700s, but gave up 13 months ago and purchased a D700. I am satisified with the D700, don't need video so I probably will not be a customer for a D800 if Nikon released one.

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I've had my D700 for almost 2 years which is why I'm looking to play with something new. Probably also due to my software developer nature. Just love the bleeding edge!

Anybody know if the Leica forums got this worked up over the M9 prices? Now that's serious crazy territory to me. You're looking at $15,000 for a 3 lens, manual focus outfit. Yeah, I know, ... but it's a Leica. OK, full disclosure, if I won the lottery I'd probably buy one - after all....it's a Leica.

Rich

>Anybody know if the Leica forums got this worked up over the
>M9 prices?

It's an old joke by now . . . Leica owners only get worked up if the company releases a new camera that is priced too low. The fear is that a competitively priced Leica camera might let the riff-raff onto their allegedly hallowed ground.

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Wow with this announcement there are multiple D3 camera's for sale. Cheapest I've seen is $2800. Now is good time to get a D3

When the F4 came out, F3 pricing dropped so, I got a second F3 and stayed with the F3's for 18 years!
Only after the F5 had been released for several years did I finally give up my F3's.
With the D3 price drop maybe they will stay in D700 price range for the forseeable future. You just never know...

"Great things are not done by impulse but by a series of small things brought together." Vincent Van Gogh
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I wouldn't be particular sure the D3S is going to stay around for long. There has been much of it in the pipe for a long time, so it's doubtful there's much in inventory anywhere.

Ned
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I just realized that slot 1 in the D4 is strictly for QCD cards - which don't actually exist yet. Slot 2 is CF. So D4 users are back down to a single card in the camera until the new (likely expensive) QXD format cards hit store shelves?

Has anyone seen an announcement of any actual QXD cards? I'm not talking about announcements of the QXD format - I mean announcements about actual cards.

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Here's an announcement from Sony:

www.dpreview.com/news/2012/01/06/sony-xqd-memory-cards

Rick Walker

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. . . with Sony XQD card availability in February, when the D4 shows up. Expensive cards for now, like all new formats for the first year or so.

No announcements yet from SanDisk, Lexar, Kingston, Transcend or Integral.

Very high speed buss for the XQD card slot. Great for high speed shooting. Hopefully, the CF card slot set to backup will buss at a higher speed than the D3/s/x and make full use of the new 90mb/s CF cards on the market now.

So the risk of bent CF card pins is eliminated from slot 1. That's progress I guess.

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Howard, the CompactFlash Association only finalized the specification for these cards at the beginning of December, 2011. Apparently they may end up being known as either XQD or QXD cards.

Sony announced that their version of this card will be available in February (no specific date yet). Sony will be selling the 16GB version for $130, and the 32GB version for $230. Card readers for the card will go for $45.

Sony says that the cards have data transfer rates of up to 1Gbps/125MB/s write and read.

Sandisk is expected to have their versions of the card out soon, but haven't announced an expected release date so far.

Sandisk, Sony, Nikon, and Canon apparently were at the center of this card's creation. Canon will be announcing cameras in the future which will be using this card too.


Ned
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>Sandisk, Sony, Nikon, and Canon apparently were at the center
>of this card's creation. Canon will be announcing cameras in
>the future which will be using this card too.

The association's members are well known for sure. If more new devices and cameras making use of XQD aren't released in 2012, expect card prices to remain high until volume uptake forces down manufacturing and distribution costs.

Hopefully, the buss speed of the slot 2 CF interface accommodates the newer high-speed/high capacity CF cards.

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One can hope, and since Nikon worked with the group, one would expect it would, but you never know. I don't expect the prices to drop much before 2013.

Ned
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No..

No upgrade for me.

When I start to use more than 50% of the D700s' (or the D300s) capability, it might be time to step up.

I'm a long way from that point at the moment.

What shortcomings exist in my pix- and there are many- are due to lack of compositional skills- on my part.
Lack of good long lens technique, laziness, sloppiness, plain errors, lack of imagination and so on.

A new body aint going to help any of these.

my webpage is at http://www.scottishops.co.uk

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Canon released its 1D X with dual CF card slots I think - the announcement was made in October 2011. So even though Canon is a member of the XQD group, it must have decided that the lead time for finalization of the spec and card availability was still potentially too long. Makes sense. Makes me wonder if Canon will make an XQD retrofit kit available for the 1D X.

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Tempting as the D800 is, I've decided not to get either it or the D4. Instead, I'll probably buy the D7000 or its replacement.

By the time I've learned enough to be a descent photographer with my D700, all the relative capabilities of the D800 and D4 will have been thoroughly espoused.

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I would buy a $3000 D800 if it has ISO 12800, like the D4. But I dread getting new batteries and battery grip. Hopefully the D800 will maintain CF cards.

Well I'm being an odd ball.

I'm replacing my D700 with a D7000 to get back the advantages of the DX crop factor (or whatever you want to call it) as well as continued ISO range with slight improvement on the low end, and 16mp. Lighter weight is also a plus. I

'll keep my D3s for the wonderful things that it does, and would have preferred to just add the D700, rather than replace the D700.

I would buy a D4 today for the 16MP, widened ISO range on both ends and the improved AF capability, especially in low light, but it's not in the budget right now. The other changes in the D4 are just adjustments that come with any new body, at least to me.

Mick
www.mickklassphoto.com
or
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Hi Neil:

I have no interest whatsoever in the D4. Do not get me wrong, I believe that the D4 is a gorgeous camera very reasonably priced. Since I’m not a pro, all those features are wasted on me. To me size is the most important consideration and the main reason I made the D7K my main camera.

Will I ever upgrade my D700? No, I very seriously doubt it and certainly not with the rumored D800. What about my D7K? I have no intention, at this time. However, you can never say never and I have no idea what’s in store for the future. I am concentrating in glass right now, but that is another topic and discussion.

Best regards,

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

As of now, I'm sticking with my D700's . I agree with you Hektor, the D4 is a gorgeous camera, but since I don't shoot video, I don't see a need to upgrade.

Cheryl

Well, as a followup to my own thread here... I can't believe I've done it but I pulled the trigger on a D4 pre-order with B&H just now. Maybe I'm a fool but I'll at least be a happy one. And I've wanted video in my DSLR since I first saw the D90. I guess my D700 will be up for sale in March maybe.

Hi Neil:

Congratulations on your new D4. It is a beautiful and gorgeous camera very reasonably priced for what it does, imho. For me size and weight is my main consideration. I’m very happy with my D700 and D7000 combo with the latter being my main camera. However, if size and weight is not a problem for you, the D4 is no-brainer, imho. Furthermore, I would not go beyond 16MP – that is more than enough, in my book. Again, congrats and enjoy it.

Best regards,

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

Hopefully B&H will have one for me. I never thought the weight was an issue. I always have the grip on my D700 so I'm used to that. I originally was going to get the D3s 2 years ago but couldn't find one which is how I ended up with the D700. I usually have the 70-200 on, too. I guess I'm used to it.

At this moment B&H is still accepting preorders, as is Adorama.

I placed my order earlier.

Ned
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Hi Neil:

I was full of envy when you ordered your D4! I could not take it anymore and just ordered mine from Amazon…the new 85mm 1.8G, that is. It is not the D4 but close enough and just as exciting. If I do not like it, I’ll return it. It is due in March.

Best regards,

Hektor

My Blog: Hektors Blog
My Photo Album: Hektors Photos

How many lenses do you need? - Just one more!

LOL, thankfully with over a month until shipping time I have time to maybe come to my senses.

No.

"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor, to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread." Anatole France

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