#1 item from D800 D800E user manual

"While its high pixel count of 36 megapixels gives the D800/
D800E resolution unrivalled by previous digital SLR cameras,
a side ef ect is that bokeh and blur are made that much more
obvious. Realizing the full potential of a camera with over
30 million pixels involves a thorough appreciation of bokeh
and blur, careful selection of settings and of tools (such as
lenses and tripods), and working with the best possible subjects."

There will be some surprised people when they see their first shots of their new "super camera".

I wouldn't want to be a Nikon Help desk employee when these hit he shelves.

Bob

...and here I thought this camera would be able to improve my same old crappy subjects

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

The D700 has warmed them up for this.

The quote is from the technical guide. I expect the user manual included with the camera to be just little bigger by several hundred pages.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

I agree; the blur and bokeh challenges could become a PR nightmare for Nikon. At what pixel count on a FX camera does the impact of blur and bokeh become a significant factor?

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I like this Quote from the Manual ( correction tech Guide ) .

"The D800E offers better resolution at apertures where dif- fraction (page 13) is not an issue. The effects of aperture may therefore be more noticeable than with the D800, and care may be required to avoid loss of definition due to diffraction."

" Where dif-fraction is not an issue "

Hans K.

My Gallery

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>I like this Quote from the Manual .

To clarify, I believe these quotes are from the D800/D800E Technical Guide. The actual camera manual is not available yet as far as I know.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
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Has Nikon ever released a “Technical Guide” prior to releasing a product or is this a knee-jerk reaction to what took place when the D7000 was released? Surely Nikon should expect the end users of the D800/D800E to be experienced photographers and not be in need of a basic photography lesson in order to make good use of its new product.

Gary

----
Gary

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Surely Nikon should
>expect the end users of the D800/D800E to be experienced
>photographers and not be in need of a basic photography lesson
>in order to make good use of its new product.>

Umm, actually big no. Just fish around the Nikonians forum. I mean I know I've come across more than a few postings with "newbies" and their D3s and basic questions. Not putting anyone down here. There's lots of people with financial means that want the best. The best may not necessarily be what's best for them, but in the the marketing blurbs, it's the best.
Nikon is totally doing the right thing. They are doing their best to cover all bases.

> There's lots of people with financial means that want the best.

And even more of them will be attracted with ralatively compact design of D800.

Vladimir
Russian Nikonian in Switzerland

In a way, it reminds me of the emergence of the Leica M7, the first Leica rangefinder to have aperture priority automatic exposure.

Some Leicaphiles referred to the M7's AE as "dentist mode." Same reason as with the upline Nikon dSLRs. Some can buy the best, while not yet having a clue whatever to do with it.



Henry

A Certified Dinosaur
Nikons F, F2, D700, L35AF, Leica M3, & Kiev 4a

>Some Leicaphiles referred to the M7's AE as "dentist mode."

I'll gladly change my M6 TTL for any of these purists' M7, saving me a fraction of a second I spend rotating shutter speed wheel. I even use my Leica with a motor drive.

Vladimir
Russian Nikonian in Switzerland

>In a way, it reminds me of the emergence of the Leica M7, the
>first Leica rangefinder to have aperture priority automatic
>exposure.
>
>Some Leicaphiles referred to the M7's AE as "dentist
>mode." Same reason as with the upline Nikon dSLRs. Some
>can buy the best, while not yet having a clue whatever to do
>with it.
>
>
>
>Henry
>
>A Certified Dinosaur
>Nikons F, F2, D700, L35AF, Leica M3, & Kiev 4a

Well, being new to this forum (have been lurking around) but a longtime advanced amateur I use a D700. Being retired and now on a fixed income I'm content with my FX. Saved all my late 1990's Nikon lenses that I used on my N90s and F100 and now use them on my D700. I suppose if I was younger, working, and had disposable income available to me I might consider the D4 but not the D800. As it is I still have not even come close to using all the functions available on the D700. I remember hearing a pro say "know your equipment and be able to take shots (using manual) without thinking about it". This is a good principal to follow no matter what kind of body your shooting with. Just M.H.O.

Keep your cameras dry and your batterys charged!!!

Without the "Technical" in the title, Nikon's Fast Track to Wireless Lighting is much like the D800/D800e Technical Guide. In fact it it the only Nikon guide the I have ever seen updated for new models of Speedlights and dSLRs.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

I agree with Gary. You would think the end user of a D800 would not need basic instruction about how to avoid blurred images. I rarely get blurred images from my D300. The tech manual comes across like a warning to people that this beast will not be as versatile as earlier Nikon cameras. Though I know it can happen, the comment about the mirror movement creating blur seemed pretty extreme.

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I've gone over the "Guide" and I don't see anything in there, other than the fact I only own 1 of the lens on there list, that we didn't have to learn with the D7000.

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There is nothing really new in the D800 Technical Manual. Everything discussed is a problem in earlier Nikon (and I expect Canon) DSLRs. It 's just that the small size of the pixels makes it more apparent.

• If you view your image at 100% on your monitor, take advantage of the high pixel count by making very large prints, or do extreme cropping you will see the difference.
• If you view your image at the same size as you have done with previous DSLRs, you will see as good as or better images than before.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
D4, D800e, D300, D90, F6, FM3a (black), FM2n (chrome)
YashicaMat 124, Graflex Speed Graphic 4x5
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The number of clueless people buying the D7000 probably taught Nikon a tough lesson in overestimating the reasonableness of customers. But it really is Nikon's fault there was so much frustration with the D7000. They promoted it as a do-everything camera for beginners through advanced. It is no D90 which was a remarkably tolerant camera for a broad range of sloppy or poor technique.
The D800 will test the skills and knowledge of even advanced users if coming from docile cameras like D90's D300's or D700...or the most tolerate, D3.
At least Nikon seems to have realized the PR problem they created by not having a technical guide like this for the D7000.
Canon users also had a lot of problems but their cameras were out with higher pixel counts longer so, with time the complaints dwindled. Now, long after its release the D7000 users are not complaining much any more about blur. Apparently Nikon is worried about who are pre-ordering the camera, a lot of first time DSLR buyers including video shooters. The tech guide should make people aware of potential problems with technique or accessories.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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>The number of clueless people buying the D7000 probably
>taught Nikon a tough lesson in overestimating the
>reasonableness of customers. But it really is Nikon's fault
>there was so much frustration with the D7000. They promoted it
>as a do-everything camera for beginners through advanced. It
>is no D90 which was a remarkably tolerance camera for a broad
>range of sloppy or poor technique.
>The D800 will test the skills and knowledge of even advanced
>users if coming from docile cameras like D90's D300's or
>D700...or the most tolerate, D3.
>At least Nikon seems to have realized the PR problem they
>created by not having a technical guide like this for the
>D7000.
>Canon users also had a lot of problems but their cameras were
>out with higher pixel counts longer so, with time the
>complaints dwindled. Now, long after its release the D7000
>users are not complaining much any more about blur. Apparently
>Nikon is worried about who are pre-ordering the camera, a lot
>of first time DSLR buyers including video shooters. The tech
>guide should make people aware of potential problems with

Well said Stan. It's certain the D800(e) will attract advanced photographers, as well as average photographers with advanced bank accounts.

For those that have long been pushing the limits of enlargement, there's nothing new for us in the D800 Technical Guide. Sturdy tripod/minimum ISO/MLU/cable release/Live View focus/being aware of diffraction limits have long been standard operating procedure.

Those hand-holding with a too-short lens and expecting all the pixels to allow them to crop, should realize that by using a smaller portion of the sensor, they're ultimately planning on much greater enlargement of the image, in which case more pixels != similar quality, because flaws in technique are being enlarged as well. The only thing new here, I guess, is that the high pixel density have people thinking they can crop further, without realizing they're also enlarging further.

What should the D800 purchaser be concerned about? The D7000 user might be concerned about their lenses. A D700 user might be concerned about their technique. Those with good technique and good FX lenses have nothing to worry about.

Those who moved to D700 and felt they were magically getting better images should take note: You're now going back to DX-like pixel densities, so expect the magic to disappear!

Those planning to practice the same poor technique won't get worse images, but they won't get better images either, and viewing greater magnification on screen will probably convince them that the D800 is producing worse images than their previous camera. That's what keeps the Nikonians in business, no?

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

This is the best thing that Nikon could do.
These tips apply to all cameras.
But potential buyers will benefit most from reading them before they order a D800.

What they want to do is sell cameras.
If there is a chorus of raves from prepared buyers
instead of complaints they will sell lots more of them.

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1. D800 photosites are the same size as D7000 ones.

2. D7000, used properly, is very good, and proper skills are easily obtainable.

1+2= no new problems to expect

Vladimir
Russian Nikonian in Switzerland

I commend Nikon for trying to tell potential customers, that this is a very advanced camera and not a point and shoot. To get the best out of it you will have to be at the top of your game.
I think at the price point (not inexpensive, but reachable) it will attract many different photographers coming from many different cameras and experience levels. I think Nikon is expecting a lot of photographers moving up , hence the "Guide" and the SD card slot. I am one who is strongly considering an upgrade to the D800.

Virge

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For the first time since pre-ordering my D800 on Feb 7th I'm starting to get cold feet.

Reasons for me to get the D800:

1. It's new and I've got NAS
2. It has auto ISO that changes shutter speed as you zoom
3. It has 36mp and the possibility to capture more details
4. New metering and AF system
5. It has video, but I don't really use it or need it
6. I have NAS!!! ok there is to 6th reason


Reasons to stay with the D700

1. Save lots of $$$ and buy more glass
2. Just a great camera and I'm comfortable with it
3. Low light is awesome, D800 is speculative as of now
4. Smaller file size = faster editing and less storage needed
5. I never have the need for big prints 99% of my work is web based
6. I can't fault the quality of my images at 100%, they are breath taking.
7. I shot 278 photos at a model shoot last week and got 277 keepers, the other photograph was a gray card! The second shooter was using a D7000 and took 150 photos. I edited all the shots and noticed slight blur/mis focus at 100% for atleast 50 of the D7000 photos! (May have been bad technique)
8. I don't need video, I own a HD camcorder

After the last couple of photo shoots and the great results I've got, I'm starting to wonder if I need a D800 when what I already have is perfect. I keep telling myself that the D800 is going to be better and I'll love having the 36mp at my disposal. But what if my technique isn't up to scratch? I'll be taking a step backwards. I don't have the money to keep both cameras so I'm taking a risk here. I have 2 weddings to shoot in April, neither are for pay (I'm not a pro) they are both for friends, but I still want the best for them.

I'm not expecting an to find a solution to my problem by posting here and I still have a month to make my mind up. Maybe NAS will wear off after a few more weeks but I'm betting it will get worse! LOL


Here is one of the shots from last week's photo shoot, just a sb-900 bounced off the wall and a reflector for fill.

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Attachment #1, (jpg file)

What a great perspective!

When the camera first was announced I started thinking 'gotta get it' Fortunately it was not available then and I have since come to my senses.

The number of nikonians I am reading about who are selling great bodies to upgrade to a quite unknown technically very different equipment is surprising. NEW doesn't always mean BETTER.

I am going to wait until a) I can see a need for it b) it fully tests out as truly improved (and yes I know this attitude might get me kicked out of nikonians)

>5. I never have the need for big prints 99% of my work is web
>based

This to me is a huge red flag - I've been waiting for a "D800-like" camera from Nikon for years. I'm often stitching images together to simulate higher resolution, and printing up to 4x6' (that's feet, not inches). I honestly have trouble imagining why someone who's not printing very large would want anything to do with 36MP.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

>>5. I never have the need for big prints 99% of my work is
>web
>>based
>
>This to me is a huge red flag - I've been waiting for a
>"D800-like" camera from Nikon for years. I'm often
>stitching images together to simulate higher resolution, and
>printing up to 4x6' (that's feet, not inches). I honestly have
>trouble imagining why someone who's not printing very large
>would want anything to do with 36MP.
>
>Larry - a Bay Area
>Nikonian
>My
>Nikonians gallery>

>www.tempered-light.com

I want it because it's within reach, Nikon priced this thing so advanced amateurs, like myself, could buy it. I have given a few of the models I've shot a DVD with the hi-res shots on it for printing and have printed a couple of my landscapes and hung on the walls. Although very unlikely, I may have more of a need for hi-res later in the year as more paid work is starting to come my way.........still not sure if I want the paid work though, my regular job pays the bills and buys toys, photography is a hobby and not a job and that's why I enjoy it.

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It's just food for thought, that's all. My philosophy towards camera gear has always been: (1) It's only about the images, never about the gear, and (2) if you can't articulate how a new gear acquisition will improve your art or solve a problem, then it's money better spent elsewhere.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

Larry,
Words from someone wiser than myself. The voice of reason is a distant echo right now. The wise choice is to stick with the D700 but for once in my life I can afford the latest offering and pre-order it. NAS has taken hold of me and I'm sure I will take delivery of the D800 but what I should be doing is keeping the D700 and buying a couple of Alien bees or that 80-200 2.8 that I've been lusting after for 2 years now. The Alien Bees or the 80-200 will be going strong long after the D800 is replaced.
As for the images, I get just fine results from my wife's D70 and 18-55 kit lens and actually enjoy shooting with it. I run a local camera club and when members say that my D700 takes great photos and they wish they had one, I always say that I can do the same with their cameras. I even took my wife's D70 with me to a photoshoot over the weekend because my friend's brother said that he needed to sell his D90 because my images looked so good and he needed a better camera. I shot several images with the D70 to prove to him that it was the photographer and the lighting and not the camera that made the images look good.
Now I feel like a real hypocrite for buying a D800 but I just can't help it, I kinda feel like I'll be missing out if I don't buy it. The funny thing is, I know it wont make my photography any better but just having it will make me feel better, which in turn will help me be more creative..........maybe!

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There are almost no needs in the realm of hobbies and few in business that are not more emotional than practical.
Long detailed discussions evaluating specs and features, costs etc are justifications for what is actually an emotional desire more than need. Listen to someone explaining what they "need" a new car to a spouse who does not have any emotional charge from getting a new car.
Same with cameras. There are almost no scenes that need a camera that costs more than $200 and very very few that an observer would could tell the difference. It only matters to someone already involved emotionally with the activity.
That is not to say emotional choices are unwise, they are all of our purchases, it is how humans work. Accept it. If you place getting a D800 as a higher priority than say buying a couple packs of cigarettes a week or taking a cruise with a balcony versus porthole, or going out to dinner a few less times each month....who cares? Feeling excited and positive about something is enough and does not need justification as long as the negative consequences are tolerable and not impacting others who are not of the same emotional state.
It is not a matter of money, it is priorities. Anyone, if motivated enough to forego other lower priorities, can find the money. We waste most of our money. We know that and usually do nothing about it until priorities change. I always loved cars but moved to a city where cars were a lower priority than spending the time and money on social and cultural activities. Shifting priorities changed everything, suddenly by not spending money on cars(I still have one in storage in California, a 72 Bora Maserati mid-engine GT), my new priority of going out partying and socializing because affordable and pleasurable, displacing cars from the list. If a D4 or D800 is that priority, go for it but don't waste time trying to justify it....you have no need to justify it, unless the spouse objects;>)

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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Very well spoken Stan. I totally agree!

Stan's comments really point out the fact that some people have the hobby of making images and others have the hobby of collecting cameras and technology. All about priorities.

One thing a new camera does for me, especially one with different capabilities is to get re-exited about taking pictures.
This was even true with the V1.

When I get my D800 I am going back to the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Pinnacles, and the Aquarium.

Of course, I will study my manual first and also the other Nikon tech guides.

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>When I get my D800 I am going back to the Grand Canyon,
>Yosemite, Pinnacles, and the Aquarium.

Now here's the best argument I've heard to get a D800

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
My Nikonians gallery

www.tempered-light.com

I gave the idea of pre-ordering a D800 some thought because I can afford it now. Since I am not yet using all of the capabilities of the camera bodies I have already (D700 and D7000) and my nice lenses, I decided to spend the extra funds on accessories that will help me expand my skills.

So, for about the same upgrade cost between selling the D700 and buying a D800, I ordered an SB-910 and some of the latest Pocket Wizards that will work with iTTL. Up to this point I have been getting great results from available light and occasional use of my camera-mounted SB-600. Now I want to try off-camera flash because I think that will give better improvements and more shooting possibilities than just getting the latest camera body.

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Before you get too excited about the new Pocket Wizard iTTL (Flex 1 and Flex 5) modules, I have them and they work flawlessly with the SB-900's but do NOT work at all with the SB-910's. A call to PW confirmed this and they hope to have a firmware upgrade for the 910's in the near future.

In the meantime I'll be anxiously awaiting my delivery of a D-800.

Brad

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<<The number of clueless people buying the D7000 probably taught Nikon a tough lesson in overestimating the reasonableness of customers. But it really is Nikon's fault there was so much frustration with the D7000. They promoted it as a do-everything camera for beginners through advanced. It is no D90 which was a remarkably tolerant camera for a broad range of sloppy or poor technique.>> <<It is no D90 which was a remarkably tolerant camera for a broad range of sloppy or poor technique.>

Stan.

Possibly true, perhaps a bit harsh. I always enjoy your posts, as the detail and depth of knowledge are always exemplary. But, and yes there's often a but! If you remember my biggest mental barrier to understanding why the D7000 was a problem for me, this was that I couldn't understand why my D300, D700 and D90 to a great degree worked straight out of the box. At the time many posters vociferously disagreed with my reasoning. It was true that the D7000 did have a steep learning curve for those of us used to more tolerant new cameras or put another way "us, the clueless people".

One thing I have learned about the forums is one should conduct intense research on the technical aspects of every potential reply to a post, or one maybe be at risk of being branded "sloppy or clueless". I am not saying for a moment that the post was meant to be intentionally inflamatory or directed at any individual, but it can make one feel slightly inadequate.

Only a thought

Richard.

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Richard
I am considering getting a D7000. What sort of problems did your D7000 present compared to a D300 and D90? (I have both of these cameras).

Matthew

On two occasions Nikon has stepped up megapixels and had a lot of complaints.

The D200 was the first major step in megapixels. I think I threw away 100% of my images from the first two weeks. Technique was relatively forgiving on earlier cameras, but the resolution of the D200 caused many users to have to concentrate on technique for sharp images.

The D7000 had a similar uproar. While there may have been some camera issues, the biggest challenge was technique - especially on a camera within reach to consumers. The D7000 has higher resolution and does require more attention to technique - particularly focus, depth of field, and sharpening.

With FX cameras we see the corners, so lens problems surfaced as a major complaint. Nikon quickly had to upgrade several lenses. The wider image caused fewer complaints about image quality - and raves about perceived sharper images.

So expect the D800 to have lots of complaints over soft images. It rewards good technique and penalizes poor technique. But the image size is not very different from the D3x and cropped it is similar to the D7000.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
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Nikonians membership — my most important photographic investment, after the camera

Eric
Thanks for your reply. I did notice that I had to pay more attention to sharpening when I went from a D70 to my D300. As far as focus and depth of field, my technique from way back in my film days seemed adequate. The biggest problem I have is camera shake. I still am always looking for some camera support (if I can find it). I find VR lenses to be very useful if I can't use a tripod or find something nearby to support the camera. I feel the need to go FF for some of my photos, and I was considering getting a D700. But the price of a new D800 is so close to the D700, that a D800 seemed a better choice. But now that Nikon is rumored to drop the D700 price by about $500, the choice becomes more difficult. I don't think that more than 12 Mp may be needed, but I will wait to see D800 reviews.

Matthew

Not only was it out of the gate first - by just over a year - but with more megapixels.

Jim

>On two occasions Nikon has stepped up mega-pixels and had a
>lot of complaints.
>
>The D200 was the first major step in mega-pixels. I think I
>threw away 100% of my images from the first two weeks.
>

I believe you...but on the other hand...I stepped up from a D70, which I'd had for a few years, to the D200 and never had any such problems.

This blurry fear that's being propagated is devouring lots of space here...and beginning to make people rethink their order.

Good technique...inverse shutter speeds above the focal length should take care of the majority of these projected issues.

Order you D800...it will be a great camera and take great images. Just do what you've been doing.

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Ouch!
Just bought an SB-910 and a Pocket Wizard AC3 zone controller.
Hope I don't have to wait too long for the firmware upgrade.

Throughout your life advance daily, becoming more skillful than yesterday, more skillful than today. This is neverending.
--Hagakure--
GreenNinja Photography

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You can still use the SB-910 in the Manual mode.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

Thanks George, that's good to know.
So I should still be able to adjust the power with the AC3.

Throughout your life advance daily, becoming more skillful than yesterday, more skillful than today. This is neverending.
--Hagakure--
GreenNinja Photography

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>Before you get too excited about the new Pocket Wizard iTTL
>(Flex 1 and Flex 5) modules, I have them and they work
>flawlessly with the SB-900's but do NOT work at all with the
>SB-910's. A call to PW confirmed this and they hope to have a
>firmware upgrade for the 910's in the near future.

I've had the PW's and my SB-910 for a few days. Before doing anything I downloaded the latest firmware into the MiniTT1 and the FlexTT5's. Following the instructions I powered it all up. It appears to me that it is all working very well using my SB-600 and my SB-910 as iTTL remotes. Changes on the camera seem to make changes on the SB-910. And my images are nicely exposed.

Maybe I have not pushed the capabilities of the system or perhaps I just don't understand what "should be happening". But, saying that they do not work at all looks like stretching it in the opposite direction from what I am observing. If I reposition either the SB-600 or the SB-910, they send a test flash and the unit seems to adjust themselves. That is more than just a triggering of manually adjusted remote flashes. I will test it over the next few days to see how it behaves. That should help convince myself one way or the other.

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>Before you get too excited about the new Pocket Wizard iTTL
>(Flex 1 and Flex 5) modules, I have them and they work
>flawlessly with the SB-900's but do NOT work at all with the
>SB-910's. A call to PW confirmed this and they hope to have a
>firmware upgrade for the 910's in the near future.
>

Brad - I asked about the SB-910 myself and got a similar reply. The PW rep said that, while it might work, I should expect that there would be some malfunctions in actual use. He offered no schedule for getting the firmware update that would let the PW's and the SB-910 work together in TTL mode.

Rather than buy another speedlight right now I will just wait on the new firmware. Hopefully that won't be too long.

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I like the colors and sharpness of this picture. D700 may be in my future.

DaveO

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If cutting edge is a selling point, the D800 has just been trumped.

The new kind of pixels is a Nokia cell phone that has been released with 41mpx. It has 1080p 30fps and selectable down-sampling at various ratios down to 5mpx for better noise immunity.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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Exactly; see my post about why I chose not to upgrade from my D700

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