I'm in a dilemma - I don't know whether to go for a D800 or not.

I do mostly macro, architectural and landscape work so I'm probably an 'ideal' customer for this new 36MP camera. The problem is I already have a D3x but I can't afford to keep it long-term if I buy a D800 as well. A dealer has offered me a pretty good price for the D3x but they'd want it delivered fairly soon (around a week). So these appear to be my choices:

1) Sell the D3x now, buy a D800 and have some cash to spare.
2) Keep the D3x and ignore the D800.
3) Keep the D3x and buy a D800 later if I can afford it.
4) Buy the D800 now and sell the D3x later, probably for less than the dealer has offered (this is assuming the D800's IQ is a match for the D3x)

Other points to consider (not in any order) are:

a) I love full-size Nikon bodies (for their build, handling and vertical grip).
b) I hated the pop-up flash on my previous D700.
c) I'd have to change L-brackets & spare batteries if I went for option 1 above - not a big deal but still a minor hassle.
d) Is 36MP vs 24MP really a big enough jump in resolution to warrant the change from D3x to D800?
e) We don't know for certain when the D800 will ship - it might be delayed, it might not.
f) Nikon have said there's another body announcement this year - it could be a D4x with a 36MP (or more) sensor. I'd rather have a 36MP D4x than a D800.

So, what to do? Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Nearly the same boat I am in. I really want the pro body with the D800 sensor. In your shoes, I'd wait it out. If there is to be a D4x then let it come. If you hear nothing in a year, move to a D800.

Your aren't shooting things that move quickly, so the new AF system probably won't help you that much. You aren't shooting low light work, so the higher ISO capability likely won't mean so much. You already have a superior dual card setup for redundancy.

Keep the D3x, borrow a friends D800 for a weekend when the hit the streets, and see how it goes. There will be PLENTY of people willing to pay for the D3x even after the D800 comes out. I may go there myself depending on prices.

------
Webpage: http://www.ptfphoto.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Nearly the same boat I am in. I really want the pro body with the D800 sensor. In your shoes, I'd wait it out. If there is to be a D4x then let it come. If you hear nothing in a year, move to a D800.

The problem with waiting it out for a year is that I may not be able to afford a D4x if D3x values have dropped too low by then. The dealer's offer compares well with current eBay prices (but without the auction fees) and I may be able to move up from a D800 to a D4x with slightly less of a financial loss. Either way it's a gamble though.

Your aren't shooting things that move quickly, so the new AF system probably won't help you that much. You aren't shooting low light work, so the higher ISO capability likely won't mean so much. You already have a superior dual card setup for redundancy.

That's right - I'm more concerned with high resolution at low ISO than with anything else. I'm not interested at all in high ISO (or DSLR video!) and I'd rather have two CF slots than one SD and one CF.

Keep the D3x, borrow a friends D800 for a weekend when the hit the streets, and see how it goes.

I don't have any friends who are planning to get a D800 so borrowing one to compare with the D3x won't be possible for me.

There will be PLENTY of people willing to pay for the D3x even after the D800 comes out. I may go there myself depending on prices..

I suspect most of the current crop of D3x sales are from folk who have pre-ordered the D800. After a few months there may be less used D3x bodies available and the price could even go up. We just don't know at this point.



(PS. I hope this colour scheme works! - I'm having trouble using the standard 'reply with quote' format on this forum.)

>1) Sell the D3x now, buy a D800 and have some cash to spare.

That's what I did. I sold my D3x to a private party for $5900 in December, in anticipation of the D800 release. KEH offered me $4200 for the D3x, and I originally paid $7700 for it, so I made out OK.

In the interim, I am using a 24MP Sony A77 for any high resolution requirements until the D800 arrives. I have only limited lenses for the A77 (a 30mm macro, 50mm f/1.4, and 18-200 zoom) but I have an adapter that allows me to use my Nikon lenses in a pinch. The A77 is no D3x or D800, but it does the job.

I sold my D3s as well, for $3900. A Nikon D7000 is filling in temporarily, and the A77 also does some of the work (e.g. high frame rates.) I'm hoping my D4 arrives soon.


>Other points to consider (not in any order) are:

>d) Is 36MP vs 24MP really a big enough jump in resolution to
>warrant the change from D3x to D800?

This remains to be seen. If the D800's IQ in the ISO 100-200 range is equal to the D3x and/or its IQ above ISO 800 are better than the D3x, it's probably worth the jump, even if the resolution difference is not huge. I didn't like having a $7700 camera sitting around while my D3s did all the work, and would be much happier replacing it with a $3000 camera if most other things other than body/build are equal. In any case, the D800 is newer technology all around, with many improvements in video, sensor cleaning, etc. My D3x was enough of a dust magnet that I had plenty of reasons to make the jump to the D800 above and beyond 36MP vs 24 MP.

>f) Nikon have said there's another body announcement this year
>- it could be a D4x with a 36MP (or more) sensor. I'd rather
>have a 36MP D4x than a D800.

As I said in the other post, my gut feeling that a D4x would not be a D4 with the D800 sensor, unless Nikon priced it in the $6500 range. But I have no crystal ball to peer into. My money is on a D300s replacement, with 16 to 21MP.

You did very well there David - $5900 is 77% of your D3x purchase price. The dealer has offered me 66% of the price I paid for mine (but I don't have to deduct eBay fees).

My major worry if I trade the D3x for a D800 is that the jump in resolution won't be noticeable enough in the resulting images - in which case I'll have shot myself in the foot. I'll be stuck with a body that I really don't like as much and I won't be able to go back.

From a purely price perspective, that sounds like a good deal (and time sensitive). Without experience I can't comment on shooting ergonomics of the big bodies nor high res. FX sensors perspective though. Having shot my D700/D300 a lot, my sense is the D800/D800E with a grip won't be all that bad.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

I had the MB-D10 grip for my D700 and wasn't that impressed with it. It made the camera heavier and larger than the full-size bodies and the screw attachment (to the body) proved to be bit rickety on a tripod. I suspect the D800's grip will be the same.

Simon,

>So, what to do? Any thoughts...<

Is upscaling out of the question? In other words, are you interested in resolution for the sake of printing larg(er), detail, or both? If the first, then something like this is an option.

I would suggest stitching images as an alternative option, but for your macro and architectural photography it may be unsuitable.

Rob
www.robbuckle.co.uk

Rob - the answer to your question is both (i.e. more detail and the ability to print very large) so I don't think Genuine Fractals is the ideal solution. I'm after maximum detail straight out of camera - which is why I went for the D3x over the D3s.

Stitching is ok for landscapes but, as you say, not so good for macro and architecture (at least not without a lot of hassle in PP).

If it were me, I'd just keep the D3x. You like what you have, and it's far from clear that a 50% increase in pixels is going to change your life. Remember that megapixels are an areal density metric, meaning that you're only getting 35% more pixels in each direction, not 50% more.

The next high-end body from Nikon is overwhelmingly likely to be a D300 replacement. Whether that's DX or FX is open to debate, but it's highly unlikely to be 36mp since it has to fit into the price gap between the D7000 and D800.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

Brian,

Yes I know it's not a 'straight' 50% increase. The D3x is 6048 x 4032 and the D800 is 7360 x 4912. If my maths is correct that's an increase of 21.7% horizontally and 21.8% vertically. In terms of comparing native print sizes (at 300dpi) the D3x should print at 20.16" x 13.44" and the D800 at 24.53" x 16.37".

The question is - will the D800 provide noticeably more detail than the D3x at the same print size. The tree shot on this page gives an idea of the D800's detail - http://jimbrandenburg.blogspot.com/ - if they'd done exactly the same shot with a D3x using the same lens & position etc, we'd have the answer.

We can't do the test ourselves yet, but you can do something similar at home now. Try printing one shot from a DX crop and from the full FX frame from your D3x and the same high quality lens. That's far more than 25% linear improvement and presumably that would at least make up for the differential between the D3x's relatively weak AA filter an an 800E. The differential will probably be more than the delta between the D3x and the D800, although of course we can't tell for sure until D800's show up in the wild.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

You're right Brian - the increase going from DX to FX on a D3x is roughly double the increase going from 24MP (D3x) to 36MP (D800). Here's the maths:

* D3x in FX mode - 6048 x 4032
* D3x in DX mode - 3968 x 2640
* Difference FX-DX - 2080 x 1392
* Increase DX to FX = 52.4% horizontal / 52.7% vertical

Unfortunately my printer is out of action at the moment so I can't make the DX/FX comparison prints you suggested. Is it worth trying the same test and just viewing the results on a monitor?

You can certainly look at what you have on screen, knowing that it's going to be less in a print than on the screen. You could send the prints out, too. Crop it down to 8x10 - almost anyone can print that for you. The colors don't really even need to be right - you obviously won't be putting this in a gallery anywhere. Honestly I think you're going to look at these prints and ask what the big deal is...

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

Simon,

My quick take is that with the D800 you'll be severely diffraction limited in your macro work.
Unless you do huge landscape prints it's not clear you need the pixels.
And I don't see a pressing need for even more low light performance.

So I would choose 2 (and keep 3 in mind).

Regards,
Bill

Visit me at My site

Simon

I would keep the D3x for reasons a) and e), and because you know what you have. It could be a year before you actually get your paws on the new body and, as you say, you don't really like the build and handling of the smaller bodies. It's unlikely that the D800 will be a "dud," but you never know, so why gamble when you have the best camera currently available for your type of photography. I personally don't think that you are going to gain much, if anything, with the new body.

jP

I'd keep the D3x. The D800 has more MP (but really who needs more than 24), but do we really know it will be an improvement in image quality? Or even just match the D3x? The jury is still out there.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian

http://www.tkphoto.me/

Many thanks to everyone for your thoughts.

The general consensus seems to be in favour of keeping the D3x. Correct me if I'm wrong but I count five in favour of keeping it (Perrone, Brian, Bill, JP & Tom) and two in favour of trading it in for a D800 (David & Steve). I'm not sure which camp Rob is in - it could be either.

I'll need to talk to the dealer tomorrow to let them know if I want to accept their offer or not. I'll ask them if I can have another week but if they say 'no' I'll have to decide pronto. I have a feeling that whatever I do, it will be wrong choice!

I did come up with another option last night - i.e. keep the D3x and buy a D800 on a 6-month interest-free finance scheme (with no capital repayments during the period). This would give me six months to decide which camera to sell. Again it's a gamble though.

Simon

I thought that I would take one last stab at making your decision tougher.

David got about $900.00 more than you're going to get for yours, so if he doesn't like the D800, he will have enough money to buy a gently used D3x. He also has a D3s, according to his profile, so he will still have a pro body.

Steve, if my memory serves me, has a D4 on order. He currently uses the very capable D700. Until I bought my D3s I thought that the D700 was the nicest camera that I had ever owned in my life, and I have owned many. My prediction is that Steve will be in "Camera Heaven" once he handles that camera. As much as I liked my D700, I wouldn't willingly go back.

If you read the posts in the Nikon 1 forum, there are couple of members who say that they are abandoning their DSLRs in favor of their new toys, so pro-built cameras aren't for everyone.

But, in my opinion, there is no substitute for the pro-built bodies. My advice to anyone who doesn't own a D3s or a D3x is to never, ever, buy one, because, you will never, ever, be able to go back. I don't care how heavy they are.

jP

It worked JP - you've made my decision a lot tougher!

Pro body OR 12MP increase.

Not enough time to think about it - aaaargghhh!

>Quote
>But, in my opinion, there is no substitute for the pro-built
>bodies. My advice to anyone who doesn't own a D3s or a D3x is
>to never, ever, buy one, because, you will never, ever, be
>able to go back. I don't care how heavy they are.
>
>jP
>
>Quote<<<
>
>
Not quite true for me.
It looks like I will never go back for two good reasons:
1. The D1-4 are to heavy for me to shoot Events hand held for 8 hours.
2. I can no longer afford a new D4.

My question is: How is he going to do without the D3x while waiting for the D800?

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>My question is: How is he going to do without the D3x while
>waiting for the D800?

Amazon UK is showing a release date of March 26th - so it'll be at least 3-4 weeks.

Hi Simon,

As I actually played with the new D800 and D800E you asked to chime in. So here I am (for those of you who haven't yet read my hands-on report on the D4, D800 & D800E, just go to my blog)

First ask yourself the following questions, and answer them honestly and critically:
1) Do you really need the extra MPs as compared to the D3x you already own? What is it that you can't do with the current 24MPs that you could with 36?
2) How much would this be worth to you?
3) Could you wait, and how long? Yes you would probably get less for your D3x in a couple months (year?) time, but you've used it for that time too.
4) Do you already have the absolute best glass? Without it, the D800 is going to disappoint you.
5) Are your shooting skills (tripod, mirror up, etc.) up to scratch?
6) How badly do you “hate” the D700-ish body of the D800? (I'd rather have it in a D4 body myself too by the way and would always add the grip anyway). How much is this worth it too you?
7) Do you shoot in adverse weather conditions? The D800 is slightly less sealed than the D4 (and D3 series).
8) Do you really need it, can you afford it?
9) Again, do you really need it and can you afford it?
10) You catch my drift…

Ok, let's say that even after answering these questions critically, you still want to go for it (I mean, 36MP is sweet and the low light performance will be better than the D3x, certainly when comparing at the same resolution).

D800 or D800E. In your case I'd definitely say to get the D800E (warning: here the quality of your glass/shooting technique becomes even more important) as this will offer you the biggest increase in resolution/sharpness (man, is it sharp and detailed!). Even if you get some moiré (which in nature has almost 0% chance of occurring), I think you'd know what to do about it (currently though, only NX2 will offer you automatic moiré removal options, I'm sure Adobe will follow though in a couple of months time).

By the way, if you find you don't like the D800E camera body after all, how about this option: sell D3x, buy D800E, sell D800E, buy D4x (if this ever gets released) or used D3x?

Hope this helps

Many thanks for your detailed reply Hayo - you are a gent and a scholar sir and it is much appreciated.

Having spent too many days trying to make a decision, my brain is now well and truly addled - but I've done my best to answer your points. I've changed your text to blue for ease of reading (although I can't seem to get the font-sizes right ).

Anyway, here goes:


1) Do you really need the extra MPs as compared to the D3x you already own? What is it that you can't do with the current 24MPs that you could with 36?
I shoot a fair amount of artwork/books/products etc and when I changed from a D700 to a D3x I found the difference in detail to be dramatic. The MP increase in that change of bodies was 100% though (12 to 24). Without actually trying a 50% increase (24 to 36) I can't say how much of a real-life gain the D800's sensor would be - this is the vital question.

2) How much would this be worth to you?
In terms of pure satisfaction, a similarly dramatic increase in detail would mean a heck of a lot to me. In terms of money/earnings, it would hopefully enable me to get more of the kind of work listed above.

3) Could you wait, and how long? Yes you would probably get less for your D3x in a couple months (year?) time, but you've used it for that time too.
To be honest I don't know - it all depends on the answer to question 1. If the D800 provides a noticeable increase in detail I'd hate to spend months (or even a year) shooting at 24MP when I could have done the same work but with better results at 36MP.

4) Do you already have the absolute best glass? Without it, the D800 is going to disappoint you.
The answer is probably yes. At the moment my best lenses are the 14-24, 24-70, 105 f/2.8G macro and the 50 f/1.4G. I'm planning to add the 24 & 45 PC-Es (or possibly the 24 f/1.4G) in the not too distant future.

5) Are your shooting skills (tripod, mirror up, etc.) up to scratch?
Yes I think so - I always use MUP with a remote release whenever the camera is on a tripod (probably 90% of my shots are on a tripod).

6) How badly do you “hate” the D700-ish body of the D800? (I'd rather have it in a D4 body myself too by the way and would always add the grip anyway). How much is this worth it too you?
The word 'hate' was perhaps a bit strong but I disliked the pop-up flash intensely. Also, I found heavy-ish lenses (e.g. 14-24 & 24-70) would throw the D700 out of balance - the D3x is far better in this respect. I tried an MB-D10 but I didn't like the controls (especially the tiny joystick) and I could never get it to screw onto the body tightly enough - it would always flex a little when on my BH-55. On the plus side, the D700 is lighter and less conspicuous than the D3x (although the opposite is true with an MB-D10 bolted on).

7) Do you shoot in adverse weather conditions? The D800 is slightly less sealed than the D4 (and D3 series).
I haven't shot in particularly adverse weather so far - but I wouldn't rule it out.

8) Do you really need it, can you afford it?
Yes I think so - and - no (unless I sell the D3x).

9) Again, do you really need it and can you afford it?
Ditto answer 8.

10) You catch my drift…
I certainly do.

Ok, let's say that even after answering these questions critically, you still want to go for it (I mean, 36MP is sweet and the low light performance will be better than the D3x, certainly when comparing at the same resolution).
Although I rarely go above 100ISO with the D3x it would be nice to know that decent low light performance (a la D700) is there in the D800.

D800 or D800E. In your case I'd definitely say to get the D800E (warning: here the quality of your glass/shooting technique becomes even more important) as this will offer you the biggest increase in resolution/sharpness (man, is it sharp and detailed!). Even if you get some moiré (which in nature has almost 0% chance of occurring), I think you'd know what to do about it (currently though, only NX2 will offer you automatic moiré removal options, I'm sure Adobe will follow though in a couple of months time).
I'm not so sure the E is the best choice. It certainly is for natural subjects (landscapes etc) but wouldn't moiré be a problem with man-made architecture and fabrics/patterns in artwork/books? I use NX2 99% of the time and although I've never had to use the auto moiré tool, I suspect it could degrade crucial detail in this kind of shot.

By the way, if you find you don't like the D800E camera body after all, how about this option: sell D3x, buy D800E, sell D800E, buy D4x (if this ever gets released) or used D3x?
Yes I did think of that option and it would be a very good route if a high res D4x comes along next year. The drawback is I have an illogical phobia against buying used gear, so if there's no D4x I'm stuck - the only used D3x I would buy is mine! Sad isn't it?

I was concerned about MB-D10 as well on my BH-55 so I bought the L-bracket that they sell for the D700 - MB-D10 combination. It works perfectly. They (RRR) are accepting orders for the regular L-bracket for the D800/D800E, and I'm sure they will offer another one for the D800/D800E - MB-D12 combination. Good luck in making your decision. Hope this helps.

Ken Olson

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Ken - I had the MB-D10 L-bracket too (RRS call it the BMBD10-LB) but found it didn't make any difference. If the BH-55 drag was set up properly for the overall weight, it was impossible to move the camera (to fine-tune framing) without it flexing slightly against the grip.

Ken - I had the MB-D10 L-bracket too (RRS call it the BMBD10-LB) but found it didn't make any difference. If the BH-55 drag was set up properly for the overall weight, it was impossible to move the camera (to fine-tune framing) without it flexing slightly against the grip.

I didn't notice that happening with mine, but I sure will double check to make sure that that is not happening! Thanks for the detailed description of the problem.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

A small point in the decision but I don't see the purpose of the grip while on tripod. I agree with your flexing points you are making, but if one is going full-on ISO 100 tripod style, I would think grip-less would be a sufficient configuration. Then only adding the grip when you intend to shoot handheld.

I do agree on the hassle of removing grip and adding L-bracket when switching from hand-held to tripod mode, but maybe that would argue D800 or 800E and don't buy the grip

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

Steve - it's just that I made a mistake with the L-brackets. I bought the one for the body+grip (BMBD10-LB) whereas I should have bought the one for the body only (BD700-L).

As this seems to stir the pot quite a bit, I have some hopeful news regarding the new battery grip for the D800. I mean, the old ones were pretty bad. Though I would not want to shoot without it, the D200 grip was a disaster (flimsy, battery prongs broke on everyone, etc.), the grip for the D300 and D700 was already (a lot?) better and the new D800 grip is probably again a lot better and will made of the same material (magnesium alloy) as the body.

Now regarding moiré. Nikon, being the VERY conservative company they are when it comes to statements about issues. Simply warns you about the potential for moiré with the D800E because they do not want to disappoint people. But as I wrote in my blog, chances of having real problems with moiré in practice are quite slim. With e.g., fashion shooters running slightly more risk.

On the other hand none of the medium format digital backs used by fashion photographers have AA filters (and have never had them), so the moiré issue doesn't seem to be a huge problem to them.

The thing is though, it could still be for you…

What I would suggest is you read the D800 technical manual I reference in my blog, and then (when they are available) go take a D800 and a D800E to take some test shots (I'm sure your shop would allow you to test them “on the street” before buying), trying to get moiré. Preferably you should also be able to try to remove the moiré (if you're able to produce moiré in real life) with Capture NX2. After this testing you can decide “safely.”

Hope this helps,