I suspect the D800/800E may be more than many buyers anticipated and they will be unable or unwilling to do everything that is required to use it satisfactorily. That's why I am keeping my D700 until after I use-test the D800E in its free-trial period. Even If I keep the D800E, I may keep my D700 for all the occasions where the D700 is just simpler and easier to use and also for lenses I like but which do not measure up to the D800's very demanding requirements.

I reached those conclusions after reading the Nikon Technical Guide several times, very carefully. I believe Nikon means what it says in this precisely phrased guide.

http://www.nikonusa.com/en_US/o/Y6wrkA9OU_z04IreazIXl_22UII/PDF/D800_TechnicalGuide_En.pdf

Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

The Technical Guide seems to be more written for someone who's moving up from a lower-spec camera and may not have the totality of experience to fully utilize the camera, but I didn't get the sense that it would be too advanced for most consumers.

The advice that the Technical Guide purports is simply all the basic technotes over the years that Nikon finally put together in one pamphlet. Kudos to someone in Marketing getting together with Tech Support to make a readable, relatively simple and easily understood document that captures basic concepts with operative procedures. I don't think anything is new in this document - those of us who have learned the hard lessons over the years know these things - Use a Tripod, What is Active VR vs. Normal, what effects does in-camera NR have, etc. There are clearly pages that highlight the new feature set, such as the ability for exposure metering receiving benefits from face-detection, etc., but for the most part, there are no suprises to folks who have learned on and properly used DSLRs for years.

Now - given all that, is it enough to convince someone to use a tripod? Probably not, but that's on the consumer. Will you get complaints later of "softness" and other similar gripes when the D7000 was released? Probably. The challenge has always been to get the new owner to Read The Fine Manual (RTFM) in full. Smart camera owners moving up to a newer body will fully familiarize themselves with the controls. They will also experiment and share notes. Digital Darrell and other tech authors already have their "How To" book drafts ready to go, so there will be a wave of auxiliary readings to accompany the initial D800/E release.

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
Nikonians News - Fresh Everyday!

The Covey Blog!

My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

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We are largely in agreement. However, I am just about certain that a LOT of ingenuous buyers will unbox their brand new D800/800E and promptly photograph a LOT of badly focused, badly exposed, thoroughly unsatisfactory images.

This brief but excellent D800/800E Tech guide easily could have been entitled in big red letters: WARNING! DO NOT GO HERE UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO GET QUALITY IMAGES!


Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Armando, my Training and Counseling officer said RTFM was Read The Fu . . . . rnished Manual. Same meaning.

Bob, people have been buying new cameras and taking horrid photos for years. The D800 will be no different.

I'm the fool who hand-holds cameras at insane low shutter speeds. It would drive you insane. <shrugs> It works for me. A tripod would be better and I carried one for over 10 years. Now I do sports and journalism photography on deployment with the Army. Tripods are a pain. The photos I get beat any P&S and anyone else's DLSR photos from the unit. Brigade HQ has some photographers who can give me a run for the prize.

Bottom line. The D800 can do amazing things. As in the past some will actually do what is required to get all that detail. Most of us will do what is required to get what is acceptable to us. Some will just complain.

Daniel McGowan
Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Hi Daniel,

Yes, RTFM - I had to use the civilian and clean language version per our TOU.

Regards,

-Armando

"Toodle-loo from Covey22!"

-Armando
Nikonians Team
Nikonians News - Fresh Everyday!

The Covey Blog!

My Plan:

Get out of the car.
Get closer to the subject.
Pick the right mid-tone this time.

See My Nikonians Gallery

Armando,

I recall when I moved from film to my D200 that I had several apprehensive moments when I started pixel peeping my first D200 images. I had scanned my negatives for years with a CS4000 and was careful in my technique to get the most I could from those images. However, even then my technique needed fine tuning. It took me a while to realize that it was my technique and I had to swallow a little pride in moving on. It didn't take me long to learn the lesson that I had to grow with each new bump in resolution. I'm on the go a lot right now and a tripod is not always possible, but the lessons learned while using learning to use a tripod productively are always with me. The camera can't be too steady (I'm sure there are counter examples that my experience doesn't reveal).

I too see the technical guide as a nice collection of the suggested best practices. Like you said, some of us had to relearn them the hard way and stretch to meet the demands of the equipment. However, often the pixel level reveals detail that the every-day print level does not so we are often testing ourselves in a laboratory that doesn't reflect our every-day reality.

Breath deeply, steadily, elbows tight, don't forget to use your forehead, steady on the squeeze, could you use your self timer instead?, lean against a tree, elbows on the knees, mirror lock-up, what about the tripod?, a beanbag?, a tight string?; bump the ISO, higher shutter speed, pan steadily, don't slap the shutter-release, shorten the camera strap and tension it between your elbow and the held camera, mono-pod (only for panning), table top pressed against the wall, camera on the floor, table, ledge?, strap around the neck, camera pressed down, frame broadly with extra angle, press down on the camera, trip with the shutter release...... what other tricks?

Steady as she goes, best regards,
Roger

I don't see the D800 as being too complex or overwhelming - and I suspect many people will be attracted rather than repelled by its sophisticated feature set. The D7000 was possibly even more of a jump up from the D90, but that didn't stop people making the change

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
Check out the Nikonians Team pages

>I suspect the D800/800E may be more than many buyers
>anticipated and they will be unable or unwilling to do
>everything that is required to use it satisfactorily.
>
>I reached those conclusions after reading the Nikon Technical
>Guide several times, very carefully. I believe Nikon means
>what it says in this precisely phrased guide.

Wise words I think. The sage advice to read the manual was offered to all those who thought they'd found AF problems with their D7000 bodies too. I admit that I needed almost three full months to improve my own handholding technique with the D7000.

Although I'd jump on a true D700 successor, the D800 (and all its HD video power which is lost on me) is still next on my list. I don't plan on handholding it at full res mind you. I'll keep full res for serious landscape and studio/still life shooting off a very solid tripod/head combo (with sandbags for anchoring weight too, etc., etc.). Running the D800 at one of its medium resolutions instead, handheld, will still net me the very latest programming, the very latest EXPEED iteration, greater dynamic range, FX/bright/bigger viewfinder and still more res than my D7000 - all serving my primary handheld, street shooting interest.

What I'm suggesting is that the D800, with all its intermediate-but-still-very-high-res selection options, is definitely the most versatile pro Nikon body ever released.

There's a perception out there - which I suffer from too I hasten to add - that because a device has certain features, those features must be usable at all times under all circumstances. While it's obvious that the D800's remarkable 36mp resolution is front & center in Nikon's marketing and at the top of the discussions in every forum I've read so far, I can't succumb to artifical urges imposed by such product marketing pressure when making decisions about which res to use. The fact remains too, I think, that all those res selection options are built into the D800 for very definite reasons which include appropriate choices for various subjects, situations, lighting, speed requirements, etc., etc. I'm saying that the variety of res selection options are far more important, in this particular body, that the touted top resolution itself.

To me, 36mp is a lot like having a top ISO of 102,000 (or Canon's top ISO of 205K). It's all technically quite interesting, but at the same time edge-of-the-envelope stuff that is usable/useful only under very specific conditions. At 36mp we're restricted to camera use on a good tripod/head combo, good lighting and several other shooting requirements. Similarly, in pitch darkness shooting at ISO 12,800 or higher, the fact that the camera will even achieve focus is most often likely to be far more remarkable than the resulting noisy photo.

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Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

As an amateur, one of the "fun" things about getting a camera like the D800 is that it pushes you to learn more, improve your technique, and exploit its capabilities. I see this a challenge, rather than something to be overly cautious about.

Also, capability does not equal complexity.

My guess is that I can go out and take photos in exactly the same way that I do now with my D700 and most of them will be as good or better. Yes, in lower light situations requiring longer exposures I will be more likely to bring my tripod along. But, there is still the "P" mode, auto ISO, and other settings that should make most photography relatively simple.

I look forward to the challenges this camera will present.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

I simply ask you: How many amateurs will rigorously follow the procedures that the Nikon Technical Manual lists to ensure quality images from the D800/800E?

"At the high resolutions offered by the D800/D800E, even the slightest camera motion can result in blur. Lesson 1: Use a Tripod. Use a tripod to reduce blur when photographing static subjects. It should be as sturdy as possible; avoid extending the legs or center column farther than necessary. A large head helps keep the camera steady. Lesson 2: Use Live View. The mirror is raised prior to shooting, reducing blur.At the high resolutions offered by the D800/D800E, even the slap of the mirror can sometimes be enough to blur photographs. In live view, the mirror is raised well before the shutter is released, helping keep blur to a minimum."

Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>I simply ask you: How many amateurs will rigorously follow
>the procedures that the Nikon Technical Manual lists to ensure
>quality images from the D800/800E?

Who cares if they do or if they don't. I mean there have been camera users since the dawn of mechanical photography who have complained about or been stymied by new features introduced in camera models succeeding the one they already owned. The derisive mantra - "RTFM" - is not new, and has been the appropriate advice given to far too many new users of new and existing camera models (and innumerable other devices) for several generations.

I'm suggesting that rigorous instructions are nothing new for camera user manuals.

The more D800 owners who fail to read the user manual and the technical guide, the more lively the D800 forum is likely to be at Nikonians and elsewhere. Seems to me that would be a win all around - lots of questions, and lots of opportunities to quote and requote "RTFM" over and over again.

There's something in the air (or the water, or something) that has led an apparently increasing percentage of the population to think that they can pick up any device they purchase (sometimes because it's the lastest and most technically powerful and complex device available no less), and just start using it immediately without pause for instruction, tutorial or even the briefest glance at a accompanying guide or user manual for that known-complex device. Seems to me that general product marketing (Easy! Fast! Powerful! Get Started Right Away! - or words to that general effect) is working far too well and, to some extent, to the partial detriment of competent product usage as a result.

I'd also suggest (although Gator Bob certainly did not allude to this at all) that it's not the cameras which are overly complex, but rather a certain percentage of users who want to use a new camera right now while at the same time being unprepared for the disappointment which ensues because their assumptions result in poor photography.

There's also a lot of thinking out there, among common consumers of advanced hardware, that the more we trend into ever more technologically complex products, the more the products should be intuitively usable. That's false logic. I don't know how prevalent such thinking is among Nikonians members, but it has certainly appeared.

Personally, I hate reading user manuals and technical guides, but I do it anyway out of self-defense.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

"I'd also suggest (although Gator Bob certainly did not allude to this at all) that it's not the cameras which are overly complex, but rather a certain percentage of users who want to use a new camera right now while at the same time being unprepared for the disappointment which ensues because their assumptions result in poor photography. "


Howard, I agree completely. I started this thread just to point out that many of those who pre-ordered a D800/800E are going to be shocked when they discover that before they can use it effectively they first need to LEARN and WORK.


Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>Howard, I agree completely. I started this thread just to
>point out that many of those who pre-ordered a D800/800E are
>going to be shocked when they discover that before they can
>use it effectively they first need to LEARN and WORK.

I'm with you. I just wish I also took the advice more often myself. Like a lot of other photographers, my tendency is to jump in head first without first taking sufficient time with the the user manual and technical guide. Then I get ticked off. Then I start reading.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

I ceratainly agree, Howard, with what you have said and I'm an avid reader/learner too.

But just an aside comment on your statement... "There's also a lot of thinking out there, among common consumers of advanced hardware, that the more we trend into ever more technologically complex products, the more the products should be intuitively usable..." ....

That was the genius of Steve Jobs, who built up Apple to do just that!

Chris

When words become unclear, I shall focus with photographs. When images become inadequate, I shall be content with silence.
- Ansel Adams

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>But just an aside comment on your statement...
>"There's also a lot of thinking out there, among
>common consumers of advanced hardware, that the more we trend
>into ever more technologically complex products, the more the
>products should be intuitively usable..." ....
>
>That was the genius of Steve Jobs, who built up Apple to do
>just that!

Interesting point. I can't argue with Apple's success or with the job that Jobs did.

I'd challenge Apple's touted user interface, user experience and usability primacy though because iTunes and the iTunes store remain burdened with interfaces and a design that are not intuitively usable IMO. The comparatives are Windows and Microsoft Office - neither of which were intuitively usable for many years. The key to success and apparently intuitive usability is that usability and user experience are sometimes dependent on the pervasiveness of a product. In other words, the more a paradigm is pushed into general usage by whatever means, the more we collectively come to understand about it. What that means is that, for example, a minor struggle with some feature or function can often be solved by a casual comment made by some random person with whom we're conversing at work or wherever. That happens when a large percentage of people with whom we normally interact have tried or are actively using the same product. The effect is that the broader general ability to use the product increases proportionately. Heuristics meet social interaction and things seem to go better.

The are orders of magnitude more Apple products that are front & center in the public consciousness and in general use (iPod, iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad, iOS in general, Mac OS X in general) compared to Nikon D200, D2, D300, D700, D3, D4, D7000 and D800 cameras in general use. So it is unlikely that heuristics meeting social interaction will result in encountering a neighbor or a co-worker who has the same (or helpfully related) camera as any of us, or who has also solved or figured out some issue that has stumped us. The Nikonians discussion forums to some extent take the place of general consciousness about and ownership/usage of a particular product, but only for the 'converted' who know about, willingly peruse and/or participate in such forums in the first place.

So I think all that begs the question, what percentage of Nikon D200, D2, D300, D700, D3, D4, D7000 and D800 owners know about and actively participate (as readers and/or as posters) in any Nikon discussion forum of any kind? I don't know the answer, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 50%.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

>That's why I am keeping my D700 until after I use-test the D800E in its free-trial period.

You get a free-trial period in the US? We don't get that here in the UK.

There is no "free trial period." Some sales outlet might allow you to return it in some period. But, it isn't a free trial.

Larry Miller, Annapolis, MD
D700/D800
http://www.pbase.com/lmmiller9
http://lmmillerphotography.smugmug.com/

What Larry said. Free trial period? No way!

Every D800 is being sold on an allotted basis. That means, you'll be waiting until the Toronto Maple Leafs win their next Stanley Cup to buy a D800 or 800E from inventory hanging around on a store shelf. That could be a very, very, very long time. The only way to guarantee acquisition of a D800 in the next 5-6 months is to actually place a deposit for one at an online or brick & mortar authorized dealer. Demand is high, unit production is late and well behind what it would have been if Japan hadn't suffered 'quake and tsunami disaster last year and if Thailand hadn't been drenched for months last year.

There are plenty of heavy-duty Nikon authorized dealers that will accept returns of almost everything they sell. For some buyers, that means they'll be able to purchase an open-box or customer return at a slight discount; a very slight discount if current pre-order frenzy is anything to go by. Then again, customers still waiting for their deposit pre-paid orders may be given first crack at open-box and customer return units.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

I dare to say that many of the "returned trial cameras" will be carefully boxed up and sold as brand new to the next person in line..
The next thing will be people complain g that their "brand new" D800
has 2000 clicks on it when they bought it.

Bob

I'll be very surprised if I return my D800E because I 'm buying it to do landscapes in the American west and studio work. (We're moving to Santa Fe NM shortly.) However, B&H accepts returns for 14 days and once in a while I have returned a product to them.


Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Bob,

Their 'new' policy is 30 days (apparently to compete with Amazon?).

KEN OLSON

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

THANKS!

Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Bob,

I am green with envy about your announcement that you are moving to Santa Fe. It's got to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth!

KEN OLSON

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Bob,

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I believe that a lot of folks who are counting on the D800 to be a 'quick fix' for their now 'blurry pictures' they are getting with their 'poor resolution old camera', are likely to be very disappointed.

Because,
1. No matter 'how much money they throw at the problem' ($3000 - $3300), and

2. Even if they 'hire an Expert' (various D800 books, seminars,),

3. Even if they 'blame somebody else' (Nikon),

they are going to get the same blurry pictures with the D800, that they got with their 'old camera'. UNLESS THEY IMPROVE (CHANGE) THEIR TECHNIQUE, NOTHING WILL CHANGE. THEY WILL STILL GET BLURRY PICTURES WITH THE D800!

Albert Einstein has been quoted as saying, "The definition of INSANITY is, 'doing the SAME THING over and over again, and expecting a DIFFERENT RESULT' " While this idea would seem to be self-evident, it is surprising how many folks have NOT thought of this.

Rather, most folks expect 'instant gratification' without any WORK (a four letter word) involved. Indeed, many want 'something for nothing'. I believe that Nikon understands all of this all too well, and so in their first line of defense, have written the 'Technical Guide'.

KEN OLSON

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

>Getting back to the topic of this thread, I believe that a lot
>of folks who are counting on the D800 to be a 'quick fix' for
>their now 'blurry pictures' they are getting with their 'poor
>resolution old camera', are likely to be very disappointed.

I don't recall reading a single post on any forum (Nikonians, DPReview, Bob Atkins, Luminous Landscape, ByThom, etc.) expressing any expectation of any such quick fix. Obviously I haven't read all posts on all forums on the subject, but I'd really like to see even one such post about the D800.

My Nikonians Gallery

Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

Howard,

Notice the 'I believe' portion of the part of my post that you have quoted. The post is my opinion of the existence of a misconception that some folks may have about the D800. Indeed, the D800 coupled with proper technique learned from a great deal of hard work, may solve all or many of the technical problems that a photographer might have. However, the D800, IMO, will not solve all technical problems by itself, even though some folks may believe that it will. It is not unreasonable to believe that some folks may think that the D800 is going to solve all their technical problems all by itself, without any input from themselves, IMO. I believe that Nikon tried very hard to convince those with this false belief about the D800 that THEY are going to have to get involved in finding the solutions to their technical problems. This, I believe was a fundamental reason for providing customers with the 'Technical Guide'.

Using some of the 'lessons' in the 'Guide', I have already seen improvements in my D700 photography from the technical standpoint. I just thought I might as well regain some of the technique I used to use with film. Apparently, I have been somewhat 'sloppy' with digital. Don't know, maybe I thought digital would 'automatically' solve my technical problems....imagine that! Guess I was wrong though. Guess I need to have input in solving my technical photographic problems.

This improvement that I have seen in my D700 photography begs the question, 'Do I need the D800 at all?' Wow, I sure hope that all my 'technical problems' don't just boil down to sloppy technique on my part! That would mean that I wasted $3300 on a camera that I DID NOT NEED!

Seriously, I encourage all fellow Nikonians to try out the suggestions in the 'Technical Guide' with their current camera. Sure improved my D700 images! Also, it is giving me great practice (technique-wise) for my D800E yet to come.

KEN OLSON

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

"Santa Fe ... It's got to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth!"

Yup, we agree. We visited SF many times in our RV then finally decided to live there full time. We expect to spend 2-3 winter months in the RV in Florida, Arizona or San Diego.

Gator Bob in Gainesville FL
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Bob,

I love Arizona and San Diego too. Would you consider adopting me? HAHA

KEN OLSON

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Cool thread. Reading it back from a trip from Caribou, Maine, coffee in hand this morning. Just wanted to say I enjoy passively reading the back and forth on things. So, what would I think myself?
The thread asked (its title) "too advanced?"
Oh no. As read about the d800, I'd buy one if I could! There are some ways to more steady the camera when hand holding.
I reminisce now.
I jumped from the d60 to the d700. I recognized the need for a totally new approach to things. I was a picture taker and was about to try to be a picture maker. Things that did not matter before, like a tripod...
Today I have three primes to form a kit, enrolled in college at age 53, declared concentrations of journalism and native american history, and by summer will have accrued something like 8k in debt...
I do use a tripod. I do get jealous of the olden days of carefree snapshots. I am doing three photo folders and one attempted photo essay. My text book is Ben Long's book. My attempted style resembles Sam Abell's thinking. My teacher on campus is a veteran news and industrial photographer who sort of fits the image and started teaching this college photojournalism course in 1973; Bill's thinking would be to indeed use expensive core equipment, the best you can afford, and travel light, and then to use varied means to avoid the dreaded enemies: that being camera shake and too shallow DOF-- also not anticipating the photo. Again though, he does not advocate a pocket camera but carries one rather heavy (complex) (yes, complex) camera and one sizable (expensive) lens.
He places emphasis on B&Ws, on the geometry within the picture, something called the interior matt (placement of elements in the composition), creative lighting ideas in the field, and a lot of critique on the particular timing of the capture.
He preaches that you believe in yourself. Your not taking photos to please anyone else, let's say, or someone here, or Nikon, or the instruction book that came with your camera... but to be motivated from within; I guess within my case the mission that I feel in my heart.
Well, that's my muse. I'm a hobbyist. I'm finding my way.
My chosen photo essay to be done is on a man that speaks a language so rare that only 30 people on earth can hold on a conversation in that language.
That's one I took last Thursday of a person reacting to his reading a book to school children in that language. The kids don't have the maturity to really understand how rare this person is, and that's the teacher's reaction. He's age 60, full blood, a former tribal chief, and reading from a book he wrote for kids, but in his language, and he's reading out loud in Passamaquoddy.
finished my coffee now, jw

Attachment #1, (jpg file)