So today, I took my new D800 off to shoot sand volleyball and track and field. I shot volleyball, sprints, and pole vaulting. I will shoot more tomorrow.

My initial impressions are as follows:

1. Handling - For me, awful without the grip. No vertical release when shooting mostly vertical shots (volleyball) was about as bad as it gets. I was on a monopod all day with either a 70-200 or 300/2.8 attached.

2. Speed - The camera is slow. If you are shooting something where it's rather easy to judge peak motion, it's fine. But if you need to shoot peak motion as well as secondary reactions, this is not the camera you want. AF speed seemed fine. A little slower than my D3s it seems, but I expected that. Also, I had previously been worried about blowing through cards and having massive download times with the large file sizes this camera produces. That is no longer a worry. It's so slow, I found myself generally just shooting in single frames rather than bursts. I actually had LESS data to download today than from my typical shoot. So looks like I am not going to need to buy new cards after all.

3. Battery life - Hard to say really. I chimped about 10x more today than normal. But seems on par with my D7000 from what I remember.

4. Accuracy - I shot in dynamic 9 point mode which is usually what I use on the D3s. Accuracy was good from what I can tell. I haven't finished going through all my images.


5. Overall Impression - So far so good. It's working about as I expected. Excellent for the quiet moments between points, getting candid portraits, or getting wonderful shots at peak moments. But no one is going to confuse this thing with a sports camera. In fact, when I shot my first set of photos, I had to glance at the dial, because I thought I had mistakenly put it on single shot... It wasn't. It was on CH.


So, I will use this camera mostly for studio work, fashion shoots, and some sports work where I am not rushed to get followup shots.

Here is my first sample image:




This is a shot I have absolutely struggling to get with the D3s, and I got numerous times with the D800. Because of the ability to crop, the D800 let's me shoot wide, follow the action and actually compose. Whereas with the lower MP cameras, I have to compose much more tightly, and usually miss the composition of these kinds of shots.

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Nice Sample ! ... you have me a bit concerned since part of what I like to shoot is football. (about 1/6th what I do).

Arghhh ... don't know if I can justify another 3Gs for the D4 though.

Ah well ...
___________________________________________________________

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Well, I am not a camera junkie, nor a fanboy. I just lay it out there as straight as I can. These cameras have to make me money, and if they don't do that, they are gone.

The D800 will make me money. The D4 would not make me any more money than my D3s, so the D3s stays. The D800 will allow me to get shots I cannot get now with any other camera I own. So it's going to stay. But it's not good enough for me to get a pair. So I will wait until this sensor comes in a full sized body with a bit more speed, and then the D800 will go bye-bye.

I think you'll be ok with football. It doesn't move as fast as volleyball does. It's a heck of a lot more predictable.


-P


>Nice Sample ! ... you have me a bit concerned since part of
>what I like to shoot is football. (about 1/6th what I do).
>
>Arghhh ... don't know if I can justify another 3Gs for the D4
>though.
>
>Ah well ...

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Here's a few more from the day.

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Perrone

Very nice captures! Thanks for the frank review and for posting examples of some challenging shots. Your review is certainly more telling than posting a few snapshots that you could take with a P&S.

I ordered a D800 today which is guaranteed to be delivered by Tuesday, but after reading your review I am tempted to cancel it. I don't need the D800 and I could return it, which I may do, and I had no intention of selling my D3S anyway, but now I am thinking twice about even owning the D800.

Thanks again,

jP

Attachment #1, ( file)

Where did you order your camera from?

Went to a local Best Buy & am now enjoying the learning curve with an iPad. Related to my NAS, so I can share my new D800E pics soon...

So enjoying the new pics from folks with the D80

Laura

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Walked into my local Best Buy and bought 1 of the 2 they had on the shelf.

>Where did you order your camera from?
>Laura

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Enjoying your images!

Hope you got out today too)

B & H and Ritz. So tempted to get the D800 now instead of the E...Best Buy said I would get it by next week. Not convinced that was accurate, since their inventory said, "coming soon" time will tell.

I'd like to support Ritz and will cost a bit more...

Happy exploring and shooting!

Laura

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"I ordered a D800 today which is guaranteed to be delivered by Tuesday, but after reading your review I am tempted to cancel it."

Where did you order a D800 last sat and have them promise to deliver it 2 days later?

perrone, you're a treasure with all this writing. I read with great interest; one comment to highlight, from around #54, I think.
<What I found was really no different than my other Nikons. When the target is quite small in the frame, the camera really can't lock it. If your target is 1/4 of the frame or larger, you have an excellent chance to lock it.

Maybe that is why I have not been able to lock focus on small objects in a frame. I my case, a child on a bicycle in motion, and my d700 merely chooses the background and so I loose the shot. If I had a long lens rather than a 24mm, that would make all the difference. (I could get run over. heh. Once, my kid's tire swing hit me and that would have been a decent youtube. I was fine.)

I love your writing; myself, I am just a hobbiest.
Your voice as a pro is a gas. It's great. I myself only get that voice within music. If this were a music site, my voice would not be the fancy-free jibber jabber that it often is. Probably for a hobbiest I am fairly devoted, but the professional voice is a thing to behold.

I talk with so many hobbyist & student musicians and they sound more like the way I sound in photography. In pro work, it is real battle ground for nearly perfect results quickly.
Perrone, you're great. Your photos are super cool. Good luck with things.

Thanks for the kind words, but trust me when I say... I struggle plenty. I came away from a shoot 2 weeks ago, processed them, and didn't like much. Out of over 600 shots, I liked 4 or 5. That was a DANG disappointing day.

As to my and your focus lock issues. I found that with the D800, moving to dynamic 51 point focus gave me FAR better results. I don't know what focus mode you are using on your camera, but using all the focal points you can should make a big difference.

Have fun!

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Perrone: in your post, you mention that the AF speed is fine, but that the camera is slow. By slow, do you mean the frame rate of 4 fps or something else? Thanks, Richard

>Perrone: in your post, you mention that the AF speed is fine,
>but that the camera is slow. By slow, do you mean the frame
>rate of 4 fps or something else? Thanks, Richard

O' he just likes to GRIPE.

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Thanks Perrone for your candid straightforward personal views and experiences with the D800. Everyone's experiences are important and well appreciated. Resolution for PP peaks my interest.

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Then you are going to LOVE this thing. I shot at my usual focal lengths today, and cropped about as much as I normally do. And I still have resolution to print larger than I ever would. I am ABSOLUTELY pleased with that part of it.

>Thanks Perrone for your candid straightforward personal views
>and experiences with the D800. Everyone's experiences are
>important and well appreciated. Resolution for PP peaks my
>interest.

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>Perrone: in your post, you mention that the AF speed is fine,
>but that the camera is slow. By slow, do you mean the frame
>rate of 4 fps or something else? Thanks, Richard

I do mean the frame rate. It's supposed to be 4fps. But I have the dynamic light thingy turned on and that slows it down. It's really quite slow.

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Perrone,how did you have the white balance set?
Judging by the shadows, the track meet was at high noon. Dynamic range looks good. This camera is just what I have been waiting for considering the type of shooting I like. Thanks for your first impressions.

Jim

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White balance was set to Auto. But I shoot RAW and the pictures were post processed in LR4.

It was midday when these were shot. I am VERY pleased with the dynamic range. And that is something that is CLEARLY obvious in comparison to the D3s. The D7000 has excellent DR at low ISO, and the D800 takes that further.

After processing more photos tonight, I think I like the camera. I am going to make a few adjustments in how I shoot tomorrow and see what that gets me.


>Perrone,how did you have the white balance set?
>Judging by the shadows, the track meet was at high noon.
>Dynamic range looks good. This camera is just what I have been
>waiting for considering the type of shooting I like. Thanks
>for your first impressions.

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>White balance was set to Auto. But I shoot RAW and the
>pictures were post processed in LR4.
>
>It was midday when these were shot. I am VERY pleased with
>the dynamic range. And that is something that is CLEARLY
>obvious in comparison to the D3s. The D7000 has excellent DR
>at low ISO, and the D800 takes that further.
>
>After processing more photos tonight, I think I like the
>camera. I am going to make a few adjustments in how I shoot
>tomorrow and see what that gets me.
>
>
>>Perrone,how did you have the white balance set?
>>Judging by the shadows, the track meet was at high noon.
>>Dynamic range looks good. This camera is just what I have
>been
>>waiting for considering the type of shooting I like.
>Thanks
>>for your first impressions.
>
Perone,
The D800 I believe will make a fine sports camera. Of course a grip is a must however ISO
is not an issue, 4000iso is all I need, at least for College and Pro basketball and football.
Though I think I would change to DX for the 6fps, though I can see this camera hanging off my 400 2.8 VR, FX mode, shooting70 yards downfield,cropping in tight and still having a nice big file that I can go big with and see shadow detail inside the helmet....Am I dreaming????..... Dynamic Range is right there with the D4 above 1600...some of SI's best basketball images are strobed single shots. Dont sell it short...are there better sports cameras..Yes...But this camera I believe can do it all with ground breaking results.

.

"Technical aspects MUST be innate"



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Nice write up Perone. Confirmed my decision to cancel my order and wait for the D300 replacement. Nice shots.

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My sentiments exactly!!!!!

Preston-(The Tampa Nikonian)..D300

Love your reviews ... i await tomorrows foray with bated breath.


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>This is a shot I have absolutely struggling to get with the
>D3s, and I got numerous times with the D800. Because of the
>ability to crop, the D800 let's me shoot wide, follow the
>action and actually compose. Whereas with the lower MP
>cameras, I have to compose much more tightly, and usually miss
>the composition of these kinds of shots.

That's the #1 reason I wanted this. I am having a few second thoughts about the speed relative to my D300 (though to be fair I only got fast frame rate then at 12 bits so it is an improvement of sorts).

But back to speed: You actually notice the improvement with the D800 shutter lag. I think (when I get to do so) I will be more accurate in hitting the peak of action. I always thought of the D300 as nearly instant, but you "feel" the D800 is faster. Maybe not faster than the D3, but definitely faster than the D300.

Note: I can't find an authorative source of specs for either camera, I found the D300 quoted from 42 to 227ms, and I think the D800 is quoted as 42?.




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Perrone, if you are shooting RAW I think you will do better all the way around if you turn Active D Lighting off.

• ADL messes with the calculated exposure — the RAW file is changed
• You can do better opening shadows in LR than shooting with ADL.
• With ADL off, you get maximum FPS back.

Question for you: to what extent do the larger files affect your post processing? How much slower is the whole process?

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

>• With ADL off, you get maximum FPS back.

Is that 5 FPS or 4 ? I thought you could only get 5FPS in DX mode with the grip attached.

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Not sure offhand, but regardless of the top FPS, the use of ADL and NR can reduce that speed.

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

Full speed in FX mode is 4 fps that's it... 5 fps in 5:4 crop mode and DX mode without grip and 6 fps in DX mode only with grip.... so 5 fps is almost as fast as D7000.... maybe with better tracking due to pro level AF system....

Chris

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>Perrone, if you are shooting RAW I think you will do better
>all the way around if you turn Active D Lighting off.
>
>• ADL messes with the calculated exposure — the RAW file is
>changed
>• You can do better opening shadows in LR than shooting with
>ADL.
>• With ADL off, you get maximum FPS back.

You know what? I hadn't considered this, and I think you are EXACTLY right. I am going to modify my camera tonight when I get done processing the over 1000 frames from today.


>Question for you: to what extent do the larger files affect
>your post processing? How much slower is the whole process?

Process doesn't seem to be slower at all. I notice a LITTLE more lag moving from photo to photo in LR, but that's about it. Think about it. When I fill up a 16GB card with the D3s, or the D800, it's still a 16GB card. There's just fewer photos on one.


Now that said, I am using very recent hardware so I never expected any problems. But I come from the world of video, where we were dealing with individual files that were several gigabytes in size. These RAW file are just nothing to me. We were working with Terabytes of data per shoot.

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I remember reading from nikon that active d no longer slows down the camera. Have you compared with it off and on?

>I remember reading from nikon that active d no longer slows
>down the camera. Have you compared with it off and on?

Nope. I'll give it a shot, but I've been doing 18 hour days the past few days... Haven't had time to test much.

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So, yesterday I got to shoot more volleyball, and also some still work with the local roller derby team under strobes.

I also got a chance to finish looking at the volleyball and track and field work from Saturday. I have some updated impressions.

Firstly, one of the primary things I wanted to do with this camera was to be able to shoot wider, and then crop tighter in post so that I could compose more cleanly. That seems to have hit a small snag at the moment, but one I am going to work on this week. The issue is not with the ability of the camera to crop and still offer a good image. Clearly, that is exceptional. The problem is that the focus is too slow with fast paced action to get cleanly focused images unless you are tracking a player. To that end, I am going to abandon my dynamic 9 point focusing, and move to single point for a some shots, and also try out dynamic 51 point and see if I can get closest object priority going. For volleyball at least, this seems viable. What I am seeing, is that the camera is taking longer to lock on than I have. Peak action is long gone by the time the camera locks. Or alternately, the camera is picking up the very nicely contrasted backgrounds and not locking on the players.

Hanging on to the camera without a grip is a royal PITA. For those comfy with the D700 or smaller bodies, you'll have no issues. For those used to the pro bodies, you'll want to gouge your eyes out at the end of the day. I shot yesterday from 9am to 7pm. I literally couldn't open my hand fully at the end of the day, and my hand cramped several times during the day. I have one more volleyball shoot to get through this week, and then I will change back to the D3s for volleyball shooting.

The color rendition and dynamic range again looked spectacular. Far better than what I'd seen from the D3s. I am going to miss that for sure when I put this camera down. When I did my cleanup in LR, I was just ASTOUNDED by what I was getting back.

I am also finding that it has been very difficult getting tack sharp images in a fast moving sport like volleyball. This isn't really surprising, but it is somewhat disappointing. I think for covering sports like tennis or golf, where you can track a player across space and give the camera time to settle on it's target, this camera will be unbeatable for the money. That is what I saw in the track images. When I tracked a runner or vaulter, the camera was exceptional. Even handheld.

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Dang ... lack of ability to create tack sharp images on fast moving objects may be a deal breaker ... are you saying that even with high shutter speeds, you are having difficulty ?

D4 is seeming more likely.

Your photos are awesome btw.


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>Dang ... lack of ability to create tack sharp images on fast
>moving objects may be a deal breaker ... are you saying that
>even with high shutter speeds, you are having difficulty ?

It's not that you can't. I am currently shooing one of the worlds most difficult sports. There are VERY few other sports where you have to reposition the camera as often as you do for volleyball. Soccer is close, but easier. There is less than 1 second typically of dwell time on a subject to compose, get focus and fire. Proximity to background also makes things very challenging in sand volleyball.

I would think that in practically any other sport, it would be easier. Things like badminton would be similarly difficult though.

>D4 is seeming more likely.

The D4 would be better for numerous things. There's a LOT about that camera I like. I just want it to be 24MP. And I'm not going that route until it gives me a bit more.

>
>Your photos are awesome btw.

Thanks, I was really struggling this weekend.

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Check these two D300 images (admittedly no great)... the camera had to focus track the subject ... in your opinion would the D800 give me trouble with these ?



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Short answer: No.

Longer answer.... Football is fundamentally different than volleyball. When you see where a quarterback is throwing a ball, there is time to get composition on the receiver get focus lock, and time the ball arrival. In volleyball, that's a chase play. Volleyball player is chasing down a ball in the air. And by our standards, you have ALL DAY to get focus. I get 100% of those on the D800.

Imagine a situation like which happened at the end of the Superbowl this year in the last play. You track the ball to the receiver, a defender slaps it down, but it's nearly caught on the ground by someone else. And you need to get that player on the ground locked and focused. That is the primary play in volleyball. A player goes up and spikes a shot. The net is 8ft high, and the ball is going to travel some 10-20ft at 40mph or more. And you've got to get focus locked on the player, compose, and fire. Or a teammate passes to a player at the net, the ball travels 20ft in two seconds and that player is in the act of swinging as the ball comes in. You've got to "beat" the ball to the player, and try to get lock before peak action.

There is no doubt in my mind that with the LONG dwell times of football, baseball, and even most basketball plays, the D800 will work beautifully. Speaking of basketball, the alley-oop play is the closest thing I can think of in volleyball, but it happens far slower in basketball.

Make sense?

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Makes complete sense ... sorry to beat a dead horse =). I just wanted to get your opinion again before putting my fears to rest.
___________________________________________________________

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No problem at all. I know people have questions about the camera, and I am happy to try to help. Especially, when people are asking in a respectful way. Wish some others would do the same.

>Makes complete sense ... sorry to beat a dead horse =). I
>just wanted to get your opinion again before putting my fears
>to rest.

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Any chance that the "Auto Focus with Lock-On" setting is getting in the way? I don't hold out much hope for 51-points — that makes the CPU work harder (read: take longer) than when it's only watching nine points.

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

>Any chance that the "Auto Focus with Lock-On"
>setting is getting in the way? I don't hold out much hope for
>51-points — that makes the CPU work harder (read: take longer)
>than when it's only watching nine points.

It's possible. Could be that it's aquiring focus on something I don't want, then taking to long to adjust. Hadn't thought of that, but worth a shot I guess.

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I think it takes a brave man to bring a brand new camera that is untested to a Money making event.
Shooting flowers and landscapes are one thing but taking a virgin
camera to an event where you cannot fail is another.

Great job

Bob

For a while, I thought I'd like to work with Perrone out in the field. After reading about how long his day is, and how many shots he's taking, and how much data he's processing, I think I'll just stay home and take some shots of the kids and call it a day

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BTW: I can also understand why there are rumors that the D400 will be a full frame camera. The D800 is so high end that there's a wide open gap now where the D700 used to live. Maybe the D400 will be a "poor man's" D4, a 16mp full frame sensor in a D800 body, oh, but with fast frame rates, too (8fps maybe?).

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>For a while, I thought I'd like to work with Perrone out in
>the field. After reading about how long his day is, and how
>many shots he's taking, and how much data he's processing, I
>think I'll just stay home and take some shots of the kids and
>call it a day

Usually they are not THAT bad. But those tournament days are killers. FSU has 5 sand volleyball courts going at once. And you have to bounce back and forth between them. Sitting on your butt, on your knees, standing, etc. It's a real workout.

The saving grace is that the athletes are remarkable. Very friendly and welcoming, and truly enjoy having someone around to capture their great moments. That is why I prefer the Olympic sports. They rarely get the coverage and are thrilled to have someone (me) who is dedicated to THEIR sports.

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Well, not TOO brave. I had both D3s with me as well. But I didn't shoot with them for what that's worth.

Hawaii comes to town Thursday, and I am torn on whether I will try again with the D800, or shoot the D3s.



>I think it takes a brave man to bring a brand new camera that
>is untested to a Money making event.
>Shooting flowers and landscapes are one thing but taking a
>virgin
>camera to an event where you cannot fail is another.
>
>Great job
>
>Bob

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>Well, not TOO brave. I had both D3s with me as well.
>But I didn't shoot with them for what that's worth.
>
>Hawaii comes to town Thursday, and I am torn on whether I will
>try again with the D800, or shoot the D3s.
>
>
>
>>I think it takes a brave man to bring a brand new camera
>that
>>is untested to a Money making event.
>>Shooting flowers and landscapes are one thing but taking
>a
>>virgin
>>camera to an event where you cannot fail is another.
>>
>>Great job
>>
>>Bob
>
Perrone,
Great conversations on the D800. Question for you...I believe you got the D800 and not the E. Do you have an opinion now that you have shot the 800 on the 800e and if it would be a better choice for you? Also has the A/F speed working for you at this point?
Don

.

"Technical aspects MUST be innate"



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>Perrone,
>Great conversations on the D800. Question for you...I believe
>you got the D800 and not the E.

That is correct.

>Do you have an opinion now
>that you have shot the 800 on the 800e and if it would be a
>better choice for you?

The E was never a serious consideration for me. I've dealt with moire before. Both in video, and on s still shoot with the D7000. I had no real interest in that model.


>Also has the A/F speed working for you
>at this point?

>Don


The AF speed is about what I expected. I'd certainly like it to be faster and I am making some changes to deal with that. Rather I shoud say that it either needs to be faster or more accurate. Either would work and improve matters. In terms of sheer speed of focus, it's not as fast as my D3s. As for accuracy, it's too early to tell.


>
>.
>
>"Technical aspects MUST be innate"
>
>
>
>Visit my website: phxsports.net

Visit
>my
>Nikonians gallery>.

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>>Perrone,
>>Great conversations on the D800. Question for you...I
>believe
>>you got the D800 and not the E.
>
>That is correct.
>
>>Do you have an opinion now
>>that you have shot the 800 on the 800e and if it would be
>a
>>better choice for you?
>
>The E was never a serious consideration for me. I've dealt
>with moire before. Both in video, and on s still shoot with
>the D7000. I had no real interest in that model.
>
>
>>Also has the A/F speed working for you
>>at this point?
>
>>Don
>
>
>The AF speed is about what I expected. I'd certainly like it
>to be faster and I am making some changes to deal with that.
>Rather I shoud say that it either needs to be faster or more
>accurate. Either would work and improve matters. In terms of
>sheer speed of focus, it's not as fast as my D3s. As for
>accuracy, it's too early to tell.
>
>
>>
>>.
>>
>>"Technical aspects MUST be innate"
>>
>>
>>
>>Visit my website: phxsports.net

Visit
>>my
>>Nikonians gallery>.

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I took the camera out birding yesterday. And had a very good opportunity to test out the focusing.

I believe that the speed of focus when the camera is able to easily acquire a target is very good indeed. In panning from a near tree to a far pond bank, the camera focused VERY quickly. I had the 300/2.8 with 1.4x tele on it. It snapped focus like any professional system should. However, birds in flight was another matter. I tried 3D, Dyn21, Dyn51, and even did some single point work.

What I found was really no different than my other Nikons. When the target is quite small in the frame, the camera really can't lock it. If your target is 1/4 of the frame or larger, you have an excellent chance to lock it.

Perhaps others will have comments on this as more start to shoot with the camera, but these were my observations.

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Perrone, excellent pictures and thanks for taking the time to give us a "working" view of the D800. I have film cameras and a D300 that I use, and I am looking forward to getting my D800 (hopefully in the next batch). Your review of the pluses and minuses fits into what I was expecting and I can hardly wait.

Virge

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>Perrone, excellent pictures and thanks for taking the time to
>give us a "working" view of the D800. I have film
>cameras and a D300 that I use, and I am looking forward to
>getting my D800 (hopefully in the next batch). Your review of
>the pluses and minuses fits into what I was expecting and I
>can hardly wait.

There is a lot of "fanboyism" concerning any new camera. And trying to get REAL information about how the cameras actually work in the field is difficult. Everyone want's test images and "best case" stuff. I thought it was important to show how the camera works for real pros in real life shooting.

For the curious, I have 170+ D800 images from my sports shoot on the weekend here:

http://goo.gl/ggPm0

They are not all great. They are not best case. They are real images that got submitted to universities for their use.

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Those images are quite good and some are excellent. You may be too hard on yourself!

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

Great discussion, really interesting for me and it appears to others as well. The point of speed of lock and tracking in various sports is to a large extent physics. The proximity to the action, and the relative spread of action to cover are directly related. Getting in close to volleyball means every play can fill an arc of 180 degrees, and targets are within that range over a order of magnitude in distance(closer subjects, near the sidelines are much closer, relatively, than the far sideline.) A football game or race track has a vantage point that the arc of action is much narrower, and the further back, the narrow the arc is. The relative speed of tracing through the arc, and the relatively narrow range of closest to furthest action should seem more gradual and predictive.

I do not shoot sports but do some dance which is very predictable(particularly when attending dress rehearsals) but when back home I visit some pro basketball games and baseball. From the vantage point of the lower boxes, close to the court or infield the reaction and camera tracking speed has to be significantly faster than 10-20 yards further back. Even shooting with my D7000, not known for AF speed, covering pro basketball is not much of an issue from 15 yards from the benches.
So from my take on the D800 and sports, it will do great with sports that are over a smaller action arc, and from further from the action but volleyball, ice hockey, and others sports were the sidelines are close to the action and a key element of the play is misdirection and erratic ball or action paths are just too fast for anything less than a D3s/4. But that said, the D800 allows using a more forgiving wider angle to be used, and cropped as needed.

When I was into auto-racing and campaigned a 5 ltr sedan in the 70's(TransAm), it was easy to track races because the predictive nature of big objects with high mass. Surfing was another sport I did and shot, and it was pretty easy to track because the arc of action was a few degrees and there was no physical way for a board and rider to close distance as quickly as a reasonably fast sport occurring feet from you. The action was 100 yards to 30 yards covered over a 45 second span.
Just like in wildlife shooting, knowing the subject very intimately gives results that merely having a great fast camera could not compensate for the lack of knowing it.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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Wonderful breakdown Stan and 100% accurate. I think for the great proportion of sports, the D800 will be just fine. Good ISO performance, good AF, and lots of pixels to crop with. It's just the very fast, unpredictable sports that are tricky. Ice hockey is a VERY good parallel to Volleyball, however, it's more like soccer in that you can get shots of a skater with the puck on the stick. Volleyball is unique in that the person with the ball doesn't keep it for more than half a second by the rules of the sport.

I'm looking forward to covering other sports soon.

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>The proximity to
>the action, and the relative spread of action to cover are
>directly related. Getting in close to volleyball means every
>play can fill an arc of 180 degrees, and targets are within
>that range over a order of magnitude in distance(closer
>subjects, near the sidelines are much closer, relatively, than
>the far sideline.)

This is also true with sports where you are using very long lenses and trying to frame the shots. I love shooting kite surfing, and I try to get up really close to get expressions and water, etc.



However, they jump. And the jumps are the really interesting shots, but they come at pretty unpredictable times (at least unpredictable to me). The result is either filling the frame and usually missing the jump, or backing off to a wider view so with reaction time I can keep them framed, and having poor resolution.



What I'm hoping is the D800 will combine those worlds, a bit better tracking, and I can go wider knowing I've got the pixels later to see the drops of water and expressions I can't get well now. Notice how small the person is in the above shot relative to the frame; that's all too typical of the successful shots. I have lots of shots (or did before deleting) of feet or heads or space where they were a half second earlier.

PS. These are D300, I am not in the right latitude at the moment to try the D800, hopefully soon.

PPS. I love beach volleyball, and am very jealous you appear to be where it is played more regularly than me. Haven't been able to get to a good tournament since 2010, but now looking. Not sure the D800 is better there than my D300, but love to find out.

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LOL! If I was able to get a target in my frame the size of your "small" target, I wouldn't have bought a new camera! Some of my targets are 1/4 that size.

As for beach volleyball, I've shot it about 5 times in my life. This is a new university sport, and our local school has a brand new team this spring. I am one of the photographers covering it. Why did you take down your photo?

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>As for beach volleyball, I've shot it about 5 times in my
>life. This is a new university sport, and our local school
>has a brand new team this spring. I am one of the
>photographers covering it. Why did you take down your photo?

No good reason, I thought the first two were more germane to the topic, the volleyball wasn't really.

That whole set is here, I had a blast doing it, but haven't managed to catch another similar event since. Not sure FGCU here has one, I noticed you are up north in the state.

http://www.captivephotons.com/Events/DigTheBeach2010

Advice welcomed. I do too many birds, sports are more fun and interesting to me, rarely manage it.

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>That whole set is here, I had a blast doing it, but haven't
>managed to catch another similar event since. Not sure FGCU
>here has one, I noticed you are up north in the state.

FGCU is the team in blue in my photo album. And they NEED a photographer. Contact the coach/SID

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I just got my D800.
The jury will be out until after April 22nd.

Initially, I had to agree with PerroneFord's negative comments.
The default settings are terrible (for my use).
I got very slow focusing with resultant blurring
and poor High ISO results especially with bright back lighting.
The D4 completely blew it away (right out of the box).

After getting home and changing at least 10 settings,
the results were markedly better and the resolution amazing.
I now have my AutoISO set for 640s and 12800 ISO.

I think the D800 will work fine for my Events.
I shoot a D3 at only 4fps and the D800 menu allows 5 Large, Fine JPEGs per second.

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Why do we have to wait ???? =) !! I am anxiously awaiting your report !! it could save me $3Gs!!! =)
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>The default settings are terrible (for my use).
>I got very slow focusing with resultant blurring
>and poor High ISO results especially with bright back
>lighting.
>The D4 completely blew it away (right out of the box).
>
>After getting home and changing at least 10 settings,
>the results were markedly better and the resolution amazing.
>I now have my AutoISO set for 640s and 12800 ISO.
>
Great comments from a pro,thank you. Reading reviews is much different than reading someone who is using the camera.

I am curious: what were the settings you changed?

I placed an order for one today, just to get in line. I am still debating the purchase.

I own a D3s and I'm considering this one for travel, event, and portrait work.

So, when I am in Africa on a Safari, or in Prague photographing an event, or in Croatia in catching a sunset on the Adriatic, how will I determine which camera to pick up? My initial thought is that for motion, I'd tend to grab the D3s, and for high resolution, fine art style, lots of color variation and dynamic range (the sunset shot) I'd use the D800. Is this about right?

>So, when I am in Africa on a Safari, or in Prague
>photographing an event, or in Croatia in catching a sunset on
>the Adriatic, how will I determine which camera to pick up?
>My initial thought is that for motion, I'd tend to grab the
>D3s, and for high resolution, fine art style, lots of color
>variation and dynamic range (the sunset shot) I'd use the
>D800. Is this about right?


I didn't post the original comment you've replied to here, but I'll give you my answer.

If it's going to be DARK, like I need ISO 6400 or above dark, I'll take the D3s. Anything else, I'm taking the D800. It might be worth noting that as of this week, I moved from my big think tank bag with 4 bodies, to my small one with just the D3s and D800 in it. I'm not even carrying anything else any more. In there I have the 300/2.8, 70-200/2.8, 50mm, 1.4x tele, and the 18-105. Done. I'm not even carrying a speedlight any more since I never use them and if an emergency arises, the D800 has one built in.

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I felt compelled to update this thread for anyone on the fence about buying a D800 as a sports camera.

I made a few changes in the camera (some as suggested here) and shot with it again yesterday at another Volleyball game.

I turned off Active-D lighting

I changed my focus points to Dynamic 51

I shot with a a slightly higher shutter speed, but mostly because I was on the 300/2.8 with a 1.4 tele most of the day
I shot ISO 400 most of the day.


My results were VERY different. My keeper ratio was very near what I get on the D3s. Focus was fast and sure, images were sharp to tack sharp when I was able to anticipate play. I got some shots I had no reason to get.

Coming from the D7000 to the D3s, I felt the D3s made me a hero. I was getting shots were I was late on a play, but the D3s was SO fast, it got me the shot anyway. Yesterday was the first day I felt the D800 do the same. If this camera was in a full sized body, I'd sell most of my other cameras and buy another. I liked it that much.

I'll put this succintly. If you have the money and skill, and you are not bothered by the slow frame rate. Buy one of the cameras. Yesterday made me a believer.

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Congrats on working through the issues and getting a successful result!

Your attitude, analysis, and willingness to discuss and experiment seems much above many others who complain or throw up their hands. And you shoot great sports shots — I'd love to watch you work!

Now that the D800 performance is where you want it, try going back to Dynamic 9 point. I wonder if you'll get a fraction of a section faster still.

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

>Congrats on working through the issues and getting a
>successful result!

Thanks! Feels good.

>Your attitude, analysis, and willingness to discuss and
>experiment seems much above many others who complain or throw
>up their hands. And you shoot great sports shots — I'd love to
>watch you work!

After nearly 30 years at this, I know how to shoot. I just need to figure out my new tools as I get them. The D3s was nice. It just *worked*. Was like shooting my old film cameras. No muss, no fuss. Point the camera and it gets the shot. The D2x took a LOT of coaxing. The D2h not quite as much. The D7000 while good, will never be at this level. I've only used the D200 as a remote so I can't say.

>Now that the D800 performance is where you want it, try going
>back to Dynamic 9 point. I wonder if you'll get a fraction of
>a section faster still.

I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it. I may try it on a non-paid shoot and see. But generally, my problem has been that I am not able to get enough of my target(s) under the focus points because of glass. Especially on FX sensors. So being able to use Dyn21, or Dyn51 or whatever has been VERY helpful. I honestly, don't need the camera to focus any faster than it is now. I DO need it to analyze my likely subject better which 51pt seems to be doing nicely. I did not try 3D yesterday as I was on assignment, but I will try that. I played with it a bit on the D7000 and fooling around at home with the D800, but I want to give it a real try on a shoot soon.

These are two shots I got with my new settings yesterday:






Full album here:
http://goo.gl/puaUg

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Yesssssssssss! =)
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Thanks Perrone for the information and follow-ups.

I appreciate your distinction between subjects that allow you to anticipate peak action, then having the frame rate to capture secondary action. This is a key distinction that a lot of people miss in discussion of frame rates.

Larry - a Bay Area Nikonian
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www.tempered-light.com

Inspired by Perrone, I went out today to a Sand Volleyball match, armed with my D800 and (mostly) a 70-200/2.8.

I was pleasantly surprised, and had quite a few things I did not expect:

- I happened to leave it in Matrix metering (I usually use center weighted), the lighting was very harsh, and it did an excellent job. Much better than my D300 would have.

- The frame rate is very slow compared to volleyball; it's also very slow compared to the guy with the D3s that was beside me. I shot mostly one at a time.

- The faster shutter response (vs. D300) is noticable.

- I shot in 51 point focus, and found it did a very nice job most of the time. Maybe 10% of the shots it switched to something else (mostly the net) and spoiled the shot. I used "release + focus" mode, and very few released truly out of focus on the focus point.

- The extra resolution was great. I could crop to very small portions of the frame and they would be crystal clear. Notice the first shot below. It is 2.9 of 36 megapixels so is 8% of the frame. EIGHT percent. Look at the grains of sand flying.




Another significant crop:



Timing was my biggest challange, I probably deleted at least 200 shots where the ball was too far away from the action. The quicker shutter helped but I just had bad timing mostly. I do wonder if someone with 10fps has better luck, as I did several bursts at 4fps and frequently the ball came into and out of the frame in between consecutive shots. Very tight timing.



But consistently being able to crop heavily and still have good sharp detail was the most impressive thing. This shot is 7% of the frame. If you see the full resolution you will see small grains of sharp sand coming off the arms.



If anyone wants to see the rest, or full sized images, they are here:

http://www.captivephotons.com/Events/FGCUvStetsonMarch2012


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Nicely done! And I am sure the team will appreciate your shots. Just look at the COLORS!

I forgot to mention that I changed my camera to release+focus and indeed it made a difference. I had my D3s on my hip the entire shoot on Thursday, and never once felt the need to use it. I leave the D800 in CH mode, but I don't think I have ever used the motor drive while actually shooting something.

Volleyball is all about timing. I don't motor drive it even with the D3s. After shooting a few games, you get the hang of it. Just like any sport. I know shoot baseball/softball pitchers and hitters on single shot now. I know how to time the ball.

I am about to make a post illustrating the business reason for the D800 for me.

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We're these Raw and adjusted in post ... Or are these direct from camera ? The reason I ask ..metering is amazing ... and colors are beautiful.
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>We're these Raw and adjusted in post ... Or are these direct
>from camera ? The reason I ask ..metering is amazing ... and
>colors are beautiful.

These are post processed raw using LR4. I did add some "Vibrance" which is effectively a bit of saturation (and welcome comments on whether too much, as I am torn).

The metering however was dead on. I didn't have one shot that I recall where matrix metering did not do the best given the scene, in very harsh light, frequently shooting into the sun. I almost always use spot or center weighted metering, and it was a mistake to be on matrix -- but maybe one I will repeat in the future. On the D300 it makes bad choices frequently, missing the main point of the frame leaving it over or under. Perhaps just the subject matter, but I think the D800 did a much nicer job.

I did bring up the shadow detail in post, and deaden the highlights a bit, but the overall exposure in matrix amazed me.

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Dude, stay on Matrix metering. I'm old school, and in tricky light, I ALWAYS shot center weighted. But this is not the 70's or 80's. And I've found that my D3s, D7000, and now the D800 do matrix metering amazingly well. I don't use anything else. In fact, I did a test a couple of months ago in a VERY harsh, backlight scenario. The difference between what I got from center weighted and matrix was incredible. And now I don't move off matrix metering for just about anything.

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PerroneFord,

There are sooo many settings on the D800 that I doubt you have it completely dialed in yet for Sports.

When ready, please post a "Beta" copy for us to try.

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>PerroneFord,
>
>There are sooo many settings on the D800 that I doubt you have
>it completely dialed in yet for Sports.
>
>When ready, please post a "Beta" copy for us to
>try.

Well, I don't have a "sports" setting. And frankly, I don't find there are "that" many settings that actually affect picture taking. I moved most of my settings over from my D3s, but I think the people who get themselves into trouble are the ones who think there is a fixed set of settings that will net them good results all the time.

My primary setups are concerned with three things.

1. Metering. For this I typically use matrix metering and no exposure compensation.

2. Exposure. I go back and forth between aperture and shutter priority for sports. ISO is chosen based on numerous factors. And I shoot games in different phases.

I get candid and isolation shots during warmups since context is not important. Here I am usually on my lowest ISO of the day and a slower shutter speed.

Later, I'll get typical action shots and my settings change. Then I'll focus on "game moments" and my settings might change again. If I have time I'll explore experimental angles. I also try to get some shots of the coaches in those tight moments of the game.

And then game finale and post-game shots, where I am using settings more like the beginning of the day


3. Focus modes. I shoot in AF-C all the time. I use the AF-On button for focusing. I vary between different dynamic modes or even single point depending on what I am covering. Soccer is VERY tricky, and I am ofen relegated to single point or dynamic 9. Indoor volleyball is much the same. Sand Volleyball I can use a lot more sensors. Same in track and field and tennis.


While I understand the idea behind creating sets of settings, I've never worked that way, and frankly, I think it is less helpful than really getting in and understanding how your camera works. There are setting on my cameras I've never used or bothered with, because frankly, I don't have time or need. I tweak settings until the camera is giving me what I want, and then I leave it alone. But I do make a point when I get a new camera to go through every single menu item one by one, find out what it does, and then set it to my liking or simply ignore it.

I am NOT saying my way is the right way. It is simply one way... my way.

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>>PerroneFord,
>I am NOT saying my way is the right way. It is simply one
>way... my way.<Quote<<

This is pretty much what I have to do too,
constantly change my settings.

My trickiest shots are inside a poorly lit barn with uncovered sides.
As the different color horses circle they come in and out of different light and shadows.
And when they jump it gets worst.
The background "windows" often are the brightest objects so I use the smallest single point to focus on.
MotoCross and Running Events are much easier.

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perrone, your thread inspired me so much I, for the first time in my life, stopped the car, put the longest lens I have on the d700, and took pictures of unknown athletes. I actually got some sun (not easy in Maine) and chatted with another fella who had a 300mm lens. We laughed at the effect of age on one's body and maybe I mentioned that I have a beer and sit at home once a week.
If I like a photo from today, I'll post it to "a picture I took" forum (not here) and I'm sure I can pick one of mine.
Wow, focus is everything, huh. Goodness. That and the moment, but focus. I did the 1/2 hour shoot to appreciate what you do more.
A bright sunny day, cold wind, northern Maine, a track meet with another state. I contemplated the anticipation of a fleeting moment. Focus was the huge dilemma.

For lack of advanced skill or knowledge, I did manual focus. All I have is a 105dc lens and it takes forever to focus if on auto. The runners would blast by me. One out of 25 of my pics looks like a possible. I took maybe 50 or 70 at most. None wit the pizzaz or are as dazzeling as yours by miles.

I thought of your work. I wanderd alone. The "driftwood" of shoes, bags, coats, people, gloves... all on the green and in low sunlight.

You inspired me to leave my comfort zone. thanks.

>perrone, your thread inspired me so much I, for the first
>time in my life, stopped the car, put the longest lens I have
>on the d700, and took pictures of unknown athletes.

He does that. I went out a second time, today it was tennis.

Keep it up and who knows, I may find something interesting in golf!

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Glad I could inspire you. But you don't have to get peak action to get compelling shots in sports. The moment BEFORE or the moment AFTER is also great. Runners in the blocks. The joy on the face of the athlete who just won, or the pain of the person who came in second... or last. Those are just as compelling. And don't require fast focus.

A big part of what made me the photographer I am today, is pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Shooting sports I've never shot, shooting subjects I would have never thought to shoot. Buying studio strobes and learning to use them, etc.

This is a great journey we are on, and there are no more film costs. Go outside and play!

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I was about to ask the same metering and post question but you already answered them. Those are difficult scenes, a lot of bright sand and small areas of black clothing yet blacks look black and sand looks bright instead of mid grey.
The cropping capability with the D800 could really change how someone shots sports, where a wider field of view could be maintained, and the much cheaper and more agile glass implied and pick out the details as needed based on editorial content. Some complex action scenes where things of interest are happening away from the ball could very well be isolated for one crop and the ball or focus of the play could be cropped for another frame. Those 8 and 7% frame crops are mighty impressive.
Thanks for sharing them.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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