I'm getting ready to send my D800e to Melville for the third time. Last weekend I took some pictures with it at a Civil War re-enactment. The images were not as sharp as I expected so I did some brick wall testing. I used my 17-35/2.8 @17mm at a distance of ~1m and the 17-35 and my 28-70/2.8 @28mm at ~2m. For each lens and distance combination I made images focused with Live View, Phase detect AF starting with the lens set at infinity, and Phase Detect starting from minimum focus. I did this for the left most, center, and rightmost focus sensor positions. This gave me 27 images (3 lens/focal length combinations with 3 focus points each and 3 focus scenarios for each focus point). All exposures were made at f/2.8 and ISO 100. My D800e was tripod mounted and leveled with the artificial horizon and I used MUp with a wireless release

Comparison of the images showed that the Live View focused images were significantly sharper than the Phase Detect focused images for all nine combinations of lens/focal length and focus point selection. Unfortunately I wasn't thinking ahead because my images were all NEFs and I used my normal AF-ON only in AF-C mode for focusing. I couldn't upload my images to Nikon because they were too large.

In another thread in this forum I read about using the Focusing Distance in the Manufacturer notes of the EXIF data to compare Live View and Phase Detect focusing result. I checked the Focusing Distance data and observed the the Live View data for a given lens and focal length was consistent and that the Phase Detect data was different from the LV data and less consistent. I put the 27 Focus Distance data points into a spread sheet and sent that to Nikon along with a description of my method. I hoped this would be enough information for them to say it appears your camera has a problem, please sent it to us for repair.

But no, they said they needed UNedited images, taken using AF-S. So I repeated my experiment, this time using AF-S and large JPG fine. The images apparently were to large for upload to Nikon, because I got an error after several minutes of uploading and the question dialog hung. So did my experiment a 3rd time, this time using Large JPG Basic and got acceptable images. I uploaded just the nine images from the 17-35 @28mm along with a complete explanation of my experiment. I gave my opinion that the other 2 sets of images were similar to the uploaded ones. I also repeated my Focus Distance observations. Finally I noted that the LV files were all larger than any of the PD files; to me that is another indication that the LV focused files have more detail than the PD focused files. It's been almost 48 hours now without a reply from Nikon. I'll phone within the next couple hours if I don't get a reply.

My subject says 3rd time to Nikon. The previous 2 times were:

• D8003 died: I had a complete power failure.


• Another problem with my D800e: This time the 10 pin socket came loose and pushed back into the body. I sent the camera back to Nikon feeling this was the result of improper reassembly from the previous repair. After inspecting the camera Nikon decided it was not a warranty repair. Because I was suspicious of the infamous left AF point calibration problem I asked them to check that too. They charged me $244 plus tax and return shipping.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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I phoned about 1 hr. ago and just got this email reply from Nikon USA.

"Before having you ship your camera again, we will be forwarding your sample images to Japan for research. Unfortunately, this may take some time. Please use center focus points if you are experiencing issues with other points. It may take some time to receive an answer. As soon as we have any information, we will update you."

Unfortunately the images show all leftmost, center, and rightmost focus points have similar focus problems. Guess I try playing with AF fine tune in the interim. Because two lenses show the same symptoms maybe I can get away with a single correction instead of separate fine tune offsets for every lens.

I really want to use my camera, not spend all my time making focus experiments.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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Gary

Is this a new problem since the last repair? Really sorry to hear of your continued struggles.

Try a simple test - the center AF sensor at a middle focal length. Just defocus significantly - not all the way to infinity.

Then use the far left and far right center AF sensors and repeat the test.

The individual sensors should work - but might have errors. With my camera, the center and right AF sensors were tack sharp and 100% of the left AF sensor shots were soft.

I did some testing with Live View as well, but the issue was obvious with just the AF sensor. If Phase Detect AF is not working, it really does not matter what Live View does since most of my images don't use Live View.

Eric Bowles
Nikonians Team
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Eric

I think this problem is new as of the last repair, but I have no way with the images I've taken to prove it. Seeing Nikon supposedly checked at least the left AF point at the last repair, I shouldn't be seeing what I'm seeing.

I have some pre first repair shots that are amazingly sharp. I haven't taken to time to look critically at the shots taken between the repairs. It was easy to see when I cropped last weekends mid aperture shots that the shots were not sharp. That lack of sharpness led me to this set of brick wall tests.

My problem appears not to be the infamous left AF calibration issue. The leftmost, center, and rightmost AF sensors give similar out of focus results. I'll try to fix it with the AF fine tune but that is a lot of work for the range of AF lenses I have. I also have several MF lenses and AF fine tune doesn't help with them. For the MF lenses I guess I'll have to compare viewfinder focusing with LV. Obviously the in focus dot in the viewfinder is not trustworthy.

I don't use Live View normally either, except for macro. I felt that because LV uses sensor data for focusing, it would provide a good reference for checking the Phase Detect sensors.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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I just compared some images I made between the repairs with the ones from last weekend. The ones before the second repair are much sharper. Closer examination of last weekends shots indicates that the camera is front focusing 2-3m at subject distance of about 30m.

Clearly Nikon screwed up the focusing during the second repair!

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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If ALL of the focus points with PD were about the same (and bad) and ALL of the focus points with live view were good, have you considered you just have a fine tune issue?

The problem as noted above normally sent for repair is asymmetry - where one point fails and others work, which cannot be adjusted with fine tune.

Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

Linwooe

Yes I realize this is different than the infamous left AF point calibration problem.

I also know that there is a possibility that AF fine tuning will help for my AF lenses, but I don't look forward to going through my AF arsenal to do AF fine tuning. Also I have several MF lenses. AF fine tuning doesn't help them and I also believe that leaves me with an in focus dot in the viewfinder that can't be trusted. That means even more testing. If that's the only way for me to get trust my D800e for my Sept 22-30 fall color trip and even more importantly my Oct 6-20 combined southern Colorado and ANPAT trip then I'll reluctantly do it.

I certainly feel that there is a problem Nikon should fix. I think that Nikon USA sending my test images to Japan also indicates there is a problem, otherwise they would have told me just to adjust the AF fine tune.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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>Linwooe
>
>Yes I realize this is different than the infamous left AF
>point calibration problem.
>
>I also know that there is a possibility that AF fine tuning
>will help for my AF lenses, but I don't look forward to going
>through my AF arsenal to do AF fine tuning.

I get it. I spent a LOT of time when I got mine back from repair doing the same, it is very time consuming to do well (especially with zooms and 1.4 glass that really takes more precision).

I get it, and respect that it is your privilege, but I think you will ultimately just frustrate yourself. If your problem really is now ONLY fine tune, it is one time tedious effort and then you are done. To me I'd much rather spend half a day doing that, than ship the camera off again.

I'd feel that way even if I agreed with you that Nikon should fix it. There is not just delay, but a real risk they will screw something else up if you send it back again. Sad to say, just reality; I agonized over whether mine was bad enough to send at all.

By the way, I absolutely, completely agree they should not have charged you for the connector repair.


Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

Gary, sorry to hear about the problems with your camera. Hang in there, when you get it right it will be fantastic.

Virge

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

I have just enough early pictures to show me the camera's potential that I'll hang in there. I'm just frustrated that a camera I bought in May might not be working correctly for my 2 biggest photo outings of the year: a week of fall colors and a combined southern Colorado and ANPAT trip to New Mexico.

Between the camera, purchase, extra battery, bigger memory cards, L-bracket, shipping to Nikon, and repair charges I've spent over $4300 so far on my D800e and it isn't working properly. This is compounded by the fact that Nikon charged me to fix a ten pin socket problem that according to Thom Hogan and other on line sites has happen to several other D800 owners.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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Gary,
sorry to hear about the troubles. And I can feel for you, since I also went thru unsuccessful repairs, then several returns. Eventually I ended up with a D800 that "only" needs AF fine tune. I originally thought like you, that this is not acceptable. But after being worn out with all the returns, I decided to keep it. go thru the effort of fine tuning my lenses, and now it works fine. So I agree with Linwood's recommendation, but of course everybody will need to make his own decision. I do plan to send my D800 in for service to remove the need for the AF tune , but next year, maybe a month before the warranty expires. By then Nikon will have figured out how to calibrate it precisely and efficiently.

By the way, at first I fine tuned each lens separately, but eventually I figured out that I just need to set the AF fine tune default value to -4 and all the lenses are fine. That makes sense to me, since the body is off and not each lens (they don't need AF fine tune on my D700).

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian

http://www.tkphoto.me/

Tom

Overnight I though about the AF fine tune some more and decided as you said that I could get a singe number for the body. After your and Linwood's encouragement I'll give that a try.

I wonder/hope if setting the default would apply to the in focus dot in the viewfinder when I use MF lenses.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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Well that sucks, I got through the first three lines of what you wrote, Then got lost with all the technical focus stuff or what ever you were talking about lol. I would of gave up long ago with all the SH$% I have herd you go through for the last two months .... I Guess I got lucky with my D800E. Or do not realize it has a problem, works great for what I do. Hope it all works out for what its worth.

I tend to get long winded, sorry.

The summary is that my D800e focus seems to be off all the way left to right, It's obviously different than the infamous left AF calibration issue.

In the beginning I felt my D800e was fantastic but then it appears that it's previous 2 repair trips to Nikon USA in Melville changed that.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Hi Gary.

So sorry to hear about your latest D800 troubles. Doesn't seem fair. I still can't believe they charged you for the 10 pin problem.

Like I said in response to your first post on D800 problems, I hope you get it back in time for ANPAT.

Nikon is really losing credibility with their handling of the various D800 problems.

See you soon.

JIM

Jim,

I thought you were being sarcastic when you posted mid June about getting it back in time for ANPAT. Now I'm believing you were a prophet.

Following the recommendations of others above, I'm going to try some AF fine tuning this afternoon to see if I can make the focusing acceptable. If that works, I'll delay sending it to Nikon until after ANPAT. If worse comes to worse I guess I could do ANPAT exclusively with Live View.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Hi Gary.

I was just kidding in June!

Hope something works out for you. If not, you still have the D4 and D300 to fall back on.

JIM

Based on the recommendations of Linwood (Ferguson)and Tom (TomCurious) I decided to give AF Fine Tuning a try. I tested my 4 most used zooms at mid range. After finding the best value for the first one, using Tom's suggestion I only tested the others in small range surrounding the best value of the first lens. All seem to give the sharpest result at either +10 or +11. I selected +11 as a default value because it came from my most used lens and I didn't bother to make entries for individual lenses.

I only tested each lens at one focal length and at a single subject distance that was about 60 times that focal length. I didn't try other zoom settings of different subject distances. I am just too tired of staring at 100% zooms of brick walls to do any more.

I'm feeling better about the situation, but I don't like using AF fine tune as a solution to problem. As I mentioned above I like to use MF primes in addition to my AF zooms and primes. Unfortunately the default fine tune value does not apply to the in focus dot in the viewfinder when using MF lenses.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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>I selected +11 as a default value because it came
>from my most used lens and I didn't bother to make entries for
>individual lenses.

I assume this is obvious but just in case not -- if you ever set any fine tune for a lens (as opposed to the default), it remembers, and to use the default you have to actually go in and delete the lens specific one.

Glad to hear you made some progress, I didn't like it either. But I like having a working camera in my bag, instead of sitting up in Melville hoping the next temp they probably hired to handle the workload actually knows what they are doing.


Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

Linwood,

Yes I understand about the default fine tune vs. individual lens fine tune. Because all my tests came out so close I decided not to bother with individual settings.

At this point I think I'll wait until my fall travels are over and then try Melville again. You may have read in one of my replies to Eric Bowles that I believe Melville caused the problem while attempting to check for the Left AF pint calibration problem. I let my Nikon Service liaison know that the onset of the problem correlates with their service and that the AF fine tune is working as an interim but not permanent solution.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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I wonder if the lemon law applies here?
Perhaps you need a new D800E plus reimbursement for all your expenses so far?
Reza Gorji
-------------
Please visit my galleries: Reza Gorji Photography

I Googled Michigan's Lemon Law. I could only find references to motor vehicles. I appears that I don't have that kind of recourse. Because I bought the camera from a Michigan dealer, I think it's Michigan's laws that apply.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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If it helps your case with Nikon, I received my D800e yesterday. It too has the same connector problem you describe, but it was shipped to me that way (e.g., the connector was never attached properly).

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Brad

I read about your 10 pin connector problem in another thread. Thom Hogan has also received reports of several users with the same problem.

I've already paid so I regardless of stories like yours, it's unlikely Nikon will refund the repair cost. At this point I've given up on that, and I'm just pushing them to admit that the AF system is not adjusted properly.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
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Have you tried handling the problem through your credit card company? Imho it is criminal to charge repair fees for a new product. I believe that Nikon bit off more than it could chew with the release of this camera and now they are letting the consumers fit the bill.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

A tough situation no doubt.
I would plead my case with the local Nikon rep and/or the person you are corresponding with at the repair center. Perhaps a letter to Nikon Japan (Directly to Nikon's president) is in order too. I would insist on a new camera.
-------------
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My latest communication from Nikon:

" It is completely normal to use AF Fine Tune to adjust for minor differences in specific cameras and lenses. It's also normal for there to be softness towards the edges of frames, especially with lenses which may not have the resolving power of a different lens."

It seems they are trying to tell me my AF is OK. I replied:

• It is not normal for all lenses to require similar AF fine tune adjustments of about +10. That is an indication that the camera is out of calibration.


• I was not complaining about softness at the edges of the frame in the images I sent. I was comparing Live View auto focus to Phase detect AF at the same focus locations and showed that Phase Detect was always softer than LV at the same points.


• My images previous to the second repair are in mostly in focus at the focus point and that all images after the second repair are clearly out of focus at the focus point.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Gary,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. No one should have to go through this after spending hard-earned money for a camera. Nikon continues to damage their credibility when it comes to these situations.

I had a similar experience several years ago with my D700. It reached the point where I took the issue straight to Melville CORPORATE Consumer Affairs. After explaining my experience the V.P. told me to return my camera and they would send me a brand new one to replace it.

Perhaps you might want to consider this approach. Either way, I hope things turn out favorably for you.

Nick (Roxbury, Connecticut Nikonian)

How did you get to a V.P. of Consumer Affairs? Do you have a name or direct phone?

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Gary,

Have you talked to the dealer where you purchased the camera to see if they might intercede with Nikon on your behalf?

Rocky

No, I haven't talked to the dealer, I've only gone through the Nikon USA Service & Support channels on the Web and Support phone numbers. I'll ask the dealer if they can help. I also plan on trying to get to a Customer Service manager or higher in Melville Monday.

BTW to document my problems in case I can get someone within Nikon to help, I just finished a 3 page 1850 word MS Word document.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Gary,

I highly suggest you check with your dealer to find out if they can help, assuming it is a bricks and mortar establishment and not just an Internet dealer. I have seen people on here mention that a dealer has put them in touch with a regional rep who was helpful.

I have not had to go that route with Nikon, but I have with Leica, and the dealer was very helpful when I had a lens that needed to be sent in for repair -- twice.

Rocky

Gary, I dug through some old notes and see that it was Nikon at El Segundo, CA that I called and got through to a Senior Customer Service Representative. I have the contact information for that individual. Email me through my website and I can provide it for you, if you like.

Nick (Roxbury, Connecticut Nikonian)

Thanks for the offer Nick. Because I've been dealing with Melville I think I'll call the direct number there and try to get through to someone in authority there.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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I just had a message exchange with the Sr. General Manager, Customer Experience. I'm impressed that he responded at 11:00 p.m. on Saturday. My long MS Word document is on the way to him.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Good;
I would also send him the links on Nikonians regarding your problem. It carries weight.
-------------
Please visit my galleries: Reza Gorji Photography

The MS word document I sent had a summary of my experiences enumerated in the 3 threads about my problems. I mentioned Nikonians,org several times in that document.

Following is my latest response from Nikon:

"Thank you for your comments and I do apologize that we've not met your expectations for customer service. You obviously have found a few areas where we could improve. For instance the systems that send the "call tag" and web billing systems only update daily (rather than "live") which caused the call tag and online approval delays.

"Regarding the non-warranty service, there are no known issues with the D800 10-pin port and the technician described some excess pressure onto the port which caused the damage. I do understand that you've used the devices before but unfortunately something happened in this case which caused damage. As is often the case with this sort of issue, something things happen even with previous success.

"The focus issue is currently being reviewed by Nikon Corp and we hope to have more information soon. It is completely normal to have a focus difference between Live View and "regular" autofocus since these two methods use different hardware in the camera but the results you sent (By the way, if you need to upload photos and have issues with your upload speed causing a time out you can send one at a time rather than a large batch all at once.) do seem to show some problems.

"Once we have some clear direction on whether or not additional calibration on your camera is needed I'll let you know. Thanks for your patience."

I've responded to some of points above. I don't see any reason to post my reply, but it does seem we are having a reasonable dialog. Seeing I can AF Fine Tune all my AF lenses with a +9-11 setting, I can afford to wait for Nikon to discuss the problem. I have told them that I feel that the need for this kind of setting for all lenses indicates a calibration problem in the camera and makes the AF indicator useless with MF lenses. I also suggested the Nikons should use the default AF fine tune value for the viewfinder AF indicator and MF lenses.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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YashicaMat 124, Graflex Speed Graphic 4x5
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Thom Hogan in his blog article More D800 Data Sept 28, 2012 states:

"Almost all "early fix" cameras came back fixed, but offset to something like +10 AF Fine Tune. It appears that the latest deployment of the procedure actually fixes cameras to 0 AF Fine Tune. People who had a difficult time calibrating lenses after "the fix" who sent the camera back, now report that they've got a system that can be AF Fine Tuned properly."

I think that describes my situation exactly. Based on this I will be sending my D800e back for recalibration of the AF system after I return from ANPAT.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
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Hi Gary.

Third time should be a charm. Glad to hear you are waiting until after ANPAT as I will get a chance to look at your camera:-)

JIM

Jim,

When I got the camera in May, I was planning on using it on ANPAT. Now that I have it working satisfactorily (except for MF lenses) there is no way I would jeopardize bringing it.

At least 4 other ANPAT participants will have a D800 or D800e as well.

Gary in SE Michigan, USA. Co-organizer of the Southern Michigan Chapter
Nikonians membership - My most important photographic investment, after the camera.
D4, D800e, D300, D90, F6, FM3a (black), FM2n (chrome)
YashicaMat 124, Graflex Speed Graphic 4x5
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