For you guys who have upgraded from previous Nikon DSLR bodies to the D800 or D800E, have you found that you also had to change your noise removal workflow in order to preserve the best details in your images taken at high ISO settings?

For several years I used Topaz Denoise to remove noise from my D300 images. When Adobe Creative Suite CS6 came out, I started using the noise removal capability in Adobe Camera RAW because it worked pretty well. When I upgraded to the D800, a friend who does mostly medium format work recommended that I start using Nik Define in addition to ACR. When I tried it, I decided that I did like Define better for images taken over ISO 640.

However, now that I have upgraded from the D800 to the E, I am concerned that I am not preserving those additional details as much as I could when shooting animals and birds. I have done some shots with ISO as high as 2000. I am finding a good bit of noise in those images...especially under low light conditions and in the shadows.

Recently I started using a technique I discovered in RC Concepcion's The HDR Book that he recommends for noise reduction in merged HDR images. He recommends the use of Smart Filters (Smart Objects) and layers in CS5 (same in CS6). I find that technique works great, but there are several extra steps in my workflow to do those layers....especially if I do a selection technique and inverted mask when masking instead of the brush technique RC recommends.

Have you guys come up with a cleaner and faster way to remove D800 noise while preserving all of those amazing details? Do you do any noise removal in ACR or just wait until you open the images into PS6 and use a plug-in? Do you do any sharpening in ACR at the same time, or wait until you get to PS6?

I do not use Lightroom 4, but I understand ACR 7.1 is the same between CS6 and LR4.

Larry Jordan

D800E, 14-24, 50, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 70-200, 80-400mm AF-S

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Larry

My workflow is evolving as it relates to sharpening and noise reduction. They are related and involve tradeoffs.

I agree with your concern about NR softening the detail of the D800/E and would avoid using NR to the extent possible.

I'm currently using a relatively complex sharpening process that uses Tonal Contrast, High Pass, and UnSharp Mask - sometimes with more than one pass of the same tool at different settings. I apply these settings lightly on a global basis, and at more normal settings on a selective basis. I produce NEF files using the Standard Picture Control - which has a moderate level of capture sharpening applied globally (and the Picture Control is retained in my post processing since I have a Nikon based workflow).

Noise reduction is similarly complex. I never use the in-camera noise reduction, but I do use high ISO noise reduction. With a Nikon based workflow, those settings are maintained and produce the equivalent of your ACR RAW file. So I would not normally use any NR in ACR.

With noise reduction, I may apply it very lightly on a global basis, but more often apply it lightly on a selective basis.

I typically apply NR late in my workflow. My early steps are applied globally with a light touch to avoid creating or amplifying noise. I apply NR before UnSharp Mask in my creative sharpening and before output sharpening.

Final output size is part of the discussion of NR and another reason to only apply NR late in editing. For an 8x10 output of an uncropped file NR would not be necessary. For an 8x10 output of a 100% crop, it almost always would be necessary to apply some NR to the background.

Eric Bowles
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y'all go to a lot of trouble to reduce noise. How much better is the end result compared to just adjusting the sliders in lr4 for noise?

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Ronald

It depends a great deal on the size of the image, your crop, and whether edits create any noise. On an 11x14 print you'd never see it unless you were working with a cropped image. If you have a large print, edit steps that create noise, or a severe crop, noise reduction can be important.

I find the sliders are fine, but I get better results with selective edits. Noise reduction inherently blurs the image. If I have no noise in an area that I want to be very sharp, a selective edit allows me to apply NR to just the background or just the soft areas. I might sharpen the subject and use NR on the background.

Eric Bowles
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My two best references for noise reduction are as follows:
- Adobe Photoshop CS6 for Photographers by Martin Evening (he is the author or a equivalent book for LR4)
- Nik Software Captured by Corbell and Haftel

Eric, do you have a good one that you use for editing D800 images--one that discusses/illustrates your techniques?

Larry Jordan

D800E, 14-24, 50, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 70-200, 80-400mm AF-S

Website:
http://larryjordan.smugmug.com/

Larry

Capture Sharpening
I start with light Capture Sharpening - typically just enough to properly render images straight from the camera.

Creative Sharpening
Here's where I use multiple tools. The basis for my approach comes from this article by John Paul Camponigro.
http://www.digitalphotopro.com/technique/revolution/double-pass-and-hybrid-sharpening.html?start=1
I add Nik Color Efex Tonal Contrast - usually with an opacity of 40-50% and the color enhancement set to 0. I may apply this selectively.
I apply Noise Reduction as needed. I apply it before sharpening if noise is noticeable as I don't want to sharpen the noise. If noise is minor, I might apply a little NR after sharpening just to tidy things up before resizing to a larger image.
And here is one more reference on Tonal Contrast:
http://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/blog/8318/creative-sharpening-with-niks-viveza-and-colorefex-pro/

Output Sharpening
This is really based on the way I want to render the image and the resizing if any. Nothing fancy here - just a finishing step.



Eric Bowles
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Noise removal in LR4 is somewhat dubious. "Clarity" just make anything clearer, it just adds contrast. The luminance in the NR just does a global blur. I use these but sparingly. Nik Define works well.

There's cleverer folks than us who battle with the dark arts of sharpening and noise reduction. I doubt very much that any software is particularly better than any other, they all do mostly the same thing disguised in different ways. I've tried Topaz, ACR, Nik Sharpener Pro 3 and many others. For noise reduction I've tried Nik Dfine, Topaz Dnoise etc, etc. with varying success. These are much the same as "Photoshop CS" and "lightroom 4" can achieve, but using different tools.

In the end I concluded that the closer one gets, or the more one fills the frame minimising cropping, the easier the sharpening and the less the noise is a problem.

Richard

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The images below illustrate the four major techniques I have seen described here (except Eric's...sorry Eric, you are beyond me). I hope the resolution and image size here on this forum shows enough details for you to see differences.

The dragon fly was about 30 feet from me. I shot her with a 200-400mm set at 400mm. I used ISO 800 to stop the action at 1/4000s. The crops you see below are about 10% of the original full frame. I did no processing except shadows/highlights in ACR (same for all examples) and conversion to JPEG.

I would use noise reduction because the final cropped image without it would look as follows:




ACR: I used Adobe Camera RAW 7.1 sliders only for noise reduction and input sharpening:



ACR & Smart Object: I used Adobe Camera RAW 7.1 sliders and CS6 smart object layering for noise reduction and input sharpening:



NIK: I did no Adobe Camera RAW noise reduction and nor input sharpening. I used Nik Define for noise reduction and Nik Sharpen for input sharpening:



Topaz: I did no Adobe Camera RAW noise reduction and nor input sharpening. I used Topaz Denoise for noise reduction and Topaz Clean for input sharpening:



Which image do you like best?

Larry Jordan

D800E, 14-24, 50, 24-70, 70-180 Micro, 70-200, 80-400mm AF-S

Website:
http://larryjordan.smugmug.com/

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Here's a vote for NIK's products - they are fantastic!

I like Topaz De-noise and Infocus 5 . After some use you realize less is more ,that being said
the D800 files need more . The processing can run slowly even on a quicker computer .

Hans K.

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Unless my images are headed for print at larger than 20" longest dimension they are not getting any noise reduction, even at 6400 ISO, or sharpening outside of the LR4 default sharpening applied at import along with default sharpening in the various Picture Controls.

If I'm concerned about noise I'll shoot to the right, if concerned about sharpness I use a monopod or tripod depending on the circumstances. So far this has worked well but may change as I've only shot about 3,000 photos with the D800.

My first choice would be to use the tools in LR4 which seemed viable during my short experimentation phase.

In Photoshop you can always automate much of the process to accomplish what you need and then hand brush the mask.

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IF I am going to print big and if there is noise in 'non-busy' area of the image taken in low light (i.e sky etc.), I create a duplicate layer in PS where I will run NR (I use Noiseware Professional) on the whole image. The second step is to blend it with the original image w/o NR and via brush apply the N effect ONLY to those areas where noise was visible (instead of potentially losing detail if NR was applied globally)

I use lightroom 4.... WB, exposure, Vibrance, clarity, sharpen and Noise sliders first 60% of the time. Then use a mask with Noise reduction and add sharpen with that mask to trouble spots that I think need to be sharpened after noise reduction is applied. All done in lightroom 4. It works great at any ISO for prints and web. I only use CS6 for major edits!

<<I use lightroom 4. Noise slider first, then use a mask with Noise reduction and add sharpen with that mask if I have trouble spots. All done in lightroom 4. It works great for me at higher ISO !>>

Other way around for me. I use Lightroom 4 for post processing in the first instance. I follow the menu in order from top to bottom. This is because I have always been advised that noise reduction comes last and sharpening next to last as the degree of luminance (noise reduction) differs according to the sharpening applied. This is particularly relevant, I believe, to any crop and also the required final image resolution. For example a full size image (for printing) may need a sharpening of anywhere e.g. "amount 40-100, radius 0.9", and a little "masking" however a image prepared for the web should have far less, perhaps "amount 5-10, radius 0.2". This will then impact on the amount of noise reduction to be applied. The amount of "luminance" I apply is usually very delicate and limited to gentle applications of the "luminance and colour" sliders to reduce noise without too much softening.

That's my take on it, but I'm always open to comments or criticism if I'm wrong

Richard

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I was just talking about Noise reduction its self in my photos. Not the order I apply it in post. But each photo is different for me as far as my work flow goes. So for me there is no right or wrong Formula ever for post processing. I just go by what my eyes like on the Lcd and computer screen. That goes for all my photography weather in post, or shooting with my cameras. No histograms or metering with my style of shooting. That is the beauty about digital photography IMO. It is not about numbers. But what your eyes and Imagination like =)

I appreciate that, but I was responding as a number of folks had described their various types of software and methodology. In other words and I agree, there's no right or wrong way, just ones own way.

Richard

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> I follow the menu in order from top to
>bottom. This is because I have always been advised that noise
>reduction comes last and sharpening next to last as the degree
>of luminance (noise reduction) differs according to the
>sharpening applied.

While it is true that "top to bottom" is the recommended work flow in Lightroom, in fact LR adjustments are not finally rendered until LR exports or prints your file, and then they are rendered in the order the Lightroom engineers deem best regardless of the order you did them. Sharpening and noise reduction do affect each other, so I often find myself going through several iterations back and forth between them to get the best result. That does not affect the way the adjustments are finally rendered.

Also, LR performs output sharpening when it exports or prints your image, and I find it does a really good job of taking into account the output requirements (print or screen, image size, matte vs glossy, etc). I use the sliders to get the image looking the way I want on screen and rely on LRs output sharpening to take care of the output differenes. Works really well for me. For the record, though, I do use Topaz for noise reduction if the noise is more than LR can handle well. For me that is pretty unusual, though.

--Jay