All,

I just got my camera back from El Segundo and it still has the left focus problem. It's very clear that nothing changed, for all of the checks they "performed."

I will will spare you the images unless somebody insists. I shot (sturdy carbon fiber tripod Markins 20 with timer and 3 second delay)live view (crisp) and then left (not crisp), center (crisp), right (crisp). The target was a political sign against a garage across the street. Nice and contrasty. The center and right had no trouble focusing. (Heading off anybody who recites the (x) things Nikons can't focus on.)

After a closer look I'm finding that the two left center focus points are the trouble spots. A series of shots across the focus grid shows it cleaning up by the time you are three focus points from far left. I have not had the patience to check top left, bottom left, etc.

The problem seems to be happening 3 feet away too, based on my home-made lens align.

And my image review locked up the first time I tried to see an image.

Two more strikes for Nikon. This will be the last camera body I buy from them, for a long, long time anyway.

By the way, I am not hysterical. I can easily not use the left focus points or center-focus and recompose. Just a simple question: Why Should I have to?

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A political sign!!! Well that explains it! The left is always fuzzier in the political arena!

Just kidding of course John. Good luck with your dilemma.

Tom
D5000IR, V1, Oly OM-D E-M5
Nikkor Zooms: AF-S 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 VR, VR, AF-S 18-135 f/3.5-5.6
Nikkor primes: 24 f/2.8Ai-S, 28 f/2.8D, Micro 60 f/2.8, 85 f/1.4D, Nikkor-C 500 f/8 Refl.
Nikon 1 lenses: 10mm f/2.8, 10-30mm f/3.5-5.6 VR, 30-110mm f/3.8-5.6.
Voigtlander 58mm f/1.4, Sigma 70-300 Macro f/3.5-5.6.
Oly 12-42mm f/3.5-5.6, 12-50mm f/3.5-6.3, 12mm f/2.0, 45mm f/1.8, 75mm f/1.8.
Lumix 20mm f/1.7, 14-140mm f/4.0-5.8, 100-300mm f/4.0-5.6
Gitzo GT3541L, Manfrotto MT293A4, MP 680B
Markins M-20, RRS BH-25 Pro

That was a really, really good response. I agree with your assessment.

Not so much of a delimma. I'm seeing this as more of a luxury problem.

But if Nikon can send some cameras without a problem and can fix some of the ones with a problem, I want one of those cameras with no problem.

I am going to keep pressing this and will not give up.

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>A political sign!!! Well that explains it! The left is
>always fuzzier in the political arena!
>
>Just kidding of course John. Good luck with your dilemma.

OMG..Tom that was the best reply I have seen in years!!!! LMAO
OP..good luck with El Segundo. I sent mine in and luckily it was repaired
correctly.

.

"Technical aspects MUST be innate"



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Thanks for the encouragement. Was yours just slightly off focus or terrible? Mine is obvious.

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Do you have an 800 or 800E.

About what date did you first get it?

Thanks


Gator Bob Santa Fe New Mexico
D700 & SB800 * D800E on order
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

D800

Mine was in the day one shippment to my local retailer in St. Louis.

Serial number 30030XX

No more early adopting for me, ever.

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What did they do at El Sugundo? What did they list your repair status as? Did they change any parts?

Mine is there right now - It is listed as repair code B2.

Cheers

Andrew

Mine is b2 too. There's a list of things like checked autofocus, align this or that.

Clearly they didn't really check it. Or it can not be made to focus the same left and right. Or they have children doing the work. Hard to say exactly what happened, other than I lost several weeks with the camera with no change. Other than cleaning. There is evidence it was in fact cleaned.

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I would have thought that by now, Nikon would be aware of the issue, would have figured out how to repair it and how to test for a successful repair. If you can't return the camera anymore, you might want to wait a bit before sending it in again, hoping they get things sorted out.

As for focus and recompose, I agree you should not have to do this due to some bad focus points, and aside from that, this is not a good option when shooting with shallow DOF, as the plane of focus moves when recomposing.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian

http://www.tkphoto.me/

Thanks Tom

I agree but there is no sign they actually tested it. Had they done so they would see the same thing I do. What's at work here is ambivalence or incompetence or some combination that makes their repair service even more error prone than their manufacturing.

I can not return the camera but I will visit the retailer to see if they wil intercede. It is a respected local camera shop.

I will take a number of steps before sending it in again and will first request that Nikon replace the camera. Given they failed to repair it I will try hard for a replacement. I have a knack for cutting through red tape. I'm not sure if that will work in this instance but I will not give up until II have a fully functional camera.

An effort on several fronts - if necessary - may get noticed. Dealing with the My Nikon and tech support system is like asking a funeral director for medical advice. They are process oriented, not success, quality or results oriented.

Maybe they treat NPS differently.

Step one is to see what the My Nikon attendants have to say about my continued problem and the photos I uploaded.

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Wow, that is very sobering. No, you shouldn't have to put up with that. Given the level of publicity on this issue now, stunning that they let even one camera slip back through

Again, wow... not good.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

I wish I was able to read your post before I mailed my D800E yesterday to El Segundo. I guess it is a hit or miss but I'm glad that there is one success story with them so far.


Regards,

Glenn

I broke down and posted test shots in another thread. Some are "real world" test shots and others are test shots at a target atom Hogan says is necessary to properly test for the issue.

i talked with my local retailer today to plea for him to intercede with their Nikon rep. Here is where I see if buying local pays off.

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My D800 just came back from El Segundo.

I dropped it off in person on July 26 and they shipped it out on August 6th

It is fixed and I am happy.

They say they did the following

Adjust Autofocus operation
Check Bayonet
Check AE Operation
Check auto white balance
Firmware upgrade
Clean Sensor

It focuses fast and sharp now I tested it on my 85 1.4G and 24 1.4G.

Now off to shoot and work on upgrading my skills for this camera.

Cheers

Andrew

Andrew - I'm glad that there are success stories also. This provides some comfort and hope that they'll get my camera's issue completed right the first time.


Regards,

Glenn

I feel your pain. It is a real problem and no laughing matter.
Would it be possible to call them and talk with someone in charge, explaining your situation and asking for assistance?

Some one is going to have to be responsible for this mess. And it shouldn't be the customer.
-------------
Please visit my galleries: Reza Gorji Photography

I called and got a supervisor. He looked at my sample pictures and confirmed there is still a problem and said to send it back. I asked how I can be assured that it will be fixed this time. He said he would track it personally.

I am unsure on what basis it would be fixed this time. Anybody else require two trips to get this fixed?

He assured me I have the focus problem and it is possible to fix it. Hee in MIssouri we have a saying: "Show me."

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I hope it will work this time. If not, others have reported that after 3 failed repair attempts, Nikon will be open to replace the camera.

Tom
Bay Area Nikonian

http://www.tkphoto.me/

I also have an early shipoment d800 serial 30016xx, it had the "focus curse" and was sent it for repair to New York. Got it back yesterday. Center focus softer thatn either the right or left points. They want me to shoot full series of shots comparing all sensors using 2 different lens before they will authorize it coming back. Spoke to a supervisor and asked for a refund/replacement and was told it was not their policy. I don't have the time for the detailed 102 shots. Nikon service is unrealistic and not user friendly.

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>I also have an early shipoment d800 serial 30016xx, it had
>the "focus curse" and was sent it for repair to New
>York. Got it back yesterday. Center focus softer thatn either
>the right or left points.

Did you redo the AF Fine tune after it came back? Depending on how soft, that actually sounds more correct. Adjust for the center to be sharp, then see how the left/right are.

Unless you are one who believes you should never have to AF fine tune, in which case please ignore this as not trying to recreate that particular argument.

But my own expectation is to have to redo every lens when I get it back. If I send it in -- already got it authorized, but horror stories from some about "came back worse" are making me hesitate.

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Maybe you are taking a verbal shortcut, like I am about to do, but you aren't using the right language to describe the problem.

You are doing the compare to LiveView? You are using Len's focus chart? Following Thom's protocol to the "T"?

The way you described your remaining problem leaves too much ambiguity and given the level of Internet histeria, no offence to you or any othe posters since I use verbal shorthand all the time, but we need to be fairly descriptive here.

For example you talk about comparing centre to left, but that is not the protocol, you need to compare centre Live View to centre PDAF. Again it could be just the way you are describing your remaining issue.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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Steve K

I'm confused about the testing that Len And Thom require and which you reinforce here.

If rigorous testing is required to scientifically discern if there is a true problem, would it not follow that the only concern we should have about focus is under test conditions?

Why should anyone be concerned about real-world results if a rigorous test is required to know if one has a problem?

I don't have a problem with live view center vs sensor center. Or left vs. right sensor. My left sensor does not produce a sharp photo. Under any condition.

Nikon looked at my two sets of real-world shots and decided I still have the problem. Am I hold off on sending it back until I follow additional test procedures?

John

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I know people hate when I say anything about testing or diagnosis but I will repeat it: If one wants the best outcome from any repair that has a great number of variables, of which some do and others do not, impact reproducing the problem, it is possible for even a good tech to not fix what you are expecting if he can't reproduce the exact same problem.

Describe unambiguously how to reproduce the problem and under what conditions. Telling them it does not focus is almost a sure way of it passing the tests and being sent back. The worst outcomes are for customers who just say "go through it and fix everything" when they had a very definite complaint. That goes for autos, home electronics medical diagnosis, or cameras.
How often does the problem show itself, under what conditions and settings, light levels, light color, is it consistent or intermittent etc, provided you have been able to reproduce the problem at will. If it is highly intermittent, there will be added risk of it getting a clean bill of health unless you can narrow down the conditions which contribute to the problem occurring.
Like it not, you have to absorb some of the responsibility of narrowing the number of uncontrolled variables if you expect a tech to repair it to your satisfaction. With many defects such as a dead unit or some function that is 100% nonfunctional, repair success is about 100%. Where there is confusion about when or if a problem is there, the odds go down for having the owner satisfied with the repair. So the owner has a lot of impact on repair cost, time and effectiveness.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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"I know people hate when I say anything about testing or diagnosis"

I don't hate it. I just have a pragmatic viewpoint on the intersection of the scientific method and real-world experience.

Answers to your statements and questions are below:

"Describe unambiguously how to reproduce the problem"

Take a picture while relying on the left sensor for autofocus.

"and under what conditions."

Daylight, any lens, any shutter speed, whenever I shoot like I usually shoot. Whenever I shoot to see if I have a problem. (If I shoot and don't look for a problem, it doesn;t matter if it is there. I do not have time to go through 3,000 images I shot in normal shooting to see when I happened to use the left sensor.)

"How often does the problem show itself"

Every time I shoot with the left sensor to see if I have a problem.

"light levels"

All shooting where I have seen this problem has been in daylight, nice and sunny, or shade.

"light levels"

Unable to specify

"light color"

Daylight sun and shade

"Consistent or intermittent"

Consistent


I ask again: If test conditions are the only way to validate a problem, on what basis should anybody be concerned about real-world focus problems?

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These are tight crops on much-larger images. These are cropped at 4 inches by 3 inches from a 100 percent view in PhotoShop.





Some shots at long-distance

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What's odd about these (and I am not trying to judge, just commenting) is that the first clearly show back focus, but the second does not seem to, at least nothing behind is in focus either).

I agree -- if the only way to tell you have a problem is to test, don't worry. But if you know you have a problem, sometimes methodical testing is the only way to put boundaries around it, to know that you have "A" problem and not more than one with similar symptoms. I generally go to the doctor only when I know I am sick, but I rather then expect tests (yes -- if you push an analogy too far -- I expect NIKON to do the testing not me, I get it, but, well...)

In a case of sending it off to fix, I also view testing as having a quick way to compare before and after to make sure they not only fixed it, but whether they broke something else I might otherwise not notice for a month or two.

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

The flag is 150 or more yards away. Shot at 5.6 or something. I believe the 85 mm 1.4 shot is at f 4 or laqrger.

I like your doctor anology. I don't need the test to know if I should go to the doctor. I need a rigorous scientific test to find out what the problem is and get it fixed.

It is an anology stretch, but sort of applicable.

The question here is why trust the doctor if he sent you home with the appendix swollen, or a white blood cell count of 16,000 or whatever saying you are fine. On what basis can you trust the doctor? Hopefully El Seguendo has more than one camera doctor.

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> You are using Len's focus chart?

Do you have a link to Len's focus chart? Is this Leonard Shepherd or another Len?

Rocky

>> You are using Len's focus chart?
>
>Do you have a link to Len's focus chart? Is this Leonard
>Shepherd or another Len?
>
>Rocky

Hi Rocky,

Here it is with some instructions on how to use it.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=42107120

I believe Thom also has a chart one can use as well. Also to give our own Tom credit, he had a protocol developed even before Thom if I am not mistaken.

Anyhow I hope people realize this is all being given in a spirit of helping, not attacking. AF is a huge topic and less so an exacting process that we can rely on 100%. It's one of those topics where the more we know, the more we realize there is to learn.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

John, I am in the same boat. Mine came back from El Segundo with the same left focus point problem. I have talked to my vendor (AAFES) and have permission to return the camera for a refund. I asked that they get their Nikon rep involved as the problem goes well beyond my paticular body. Yesterday I received an email from the rep with a prepaid, 2-day air, UPS label attachment to send the camera to Melville NY instead of returning it and purchasing a new body, my choice return or repair.

It is interesting that even though I live in California they are having me ship it to New York. What is going on at El Segundo?

AAFES ship time on a new D800 is currently 60 days. I can have the repair back from Melville in 2-3 weeks. Mulling it over now.

The last time I had this convoluted a problem(s) with a new item was in 1976 when I traded my '68 Superbee in on a new Plymouth Volare. Plymouth is no longer around btw.

Chuck

D800, D3s, 14-24, 24-70, 24-120 f4, 70-200 VR and VRIIx2, 80-400 VR, Sigma 150-500.

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The El Segundo facility is in the process of moving.

Bob

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Thanks Bob, I would think that this means Melville will be swamped until the west coast repair facility is up and running.

Chuck

D800, D3s, 14-24, 24-70, 24-120 f4, 70-200 VR and VRIIx2, 80-400 VR, Sigma 150-500.

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I believe you yet they sent me a two-day label for El Segundo.

Do you know the timeline for that process? I wouldn't put it past Nikon to send me a label for shipment to an empty building.

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Don't get me wrong, we're here to help, that is the Nikonians way. Both Stan (above) and if you check Thom Hogan Aug 8 and Aug 9 blog entries, are far more eloquent than I as to why. I haven't looked at your photos with anything other than an iPhone so I haven't formed any conclusion yet. The two flower photos, is one Live-View and the other is Phase-detect?

Anyhow, we're here to help people with the actual problem that they may have, whatever that problem may be. According to Thom's statistics though, 80% of the people doing testing either don't have the problem or arent going about testing it the right way to prove it and get it fixed, so it is going to be difficult for those folks to get their desired outcome. Thom is saying:
"I've now looked at hundreds of test samples on URLs provided me from site visitors who've attempted my test. The statistics aren't good, but not for the reasons you think. Nearly 40% actually haven't done an adequate test. Of the remaining group that has, about a third have a camera that looks like it may have the problem."

As I've stated elsewhere, I've done enough gear testing and autofocus fine tuning in my day (as well as hundreds of hours of zero-tolerance real-world photography - most of my photography is very exacting as to AF) to know that there are 19 ways for me to get it wrong in any given situation. So my recomendation is the same as what many others are saying, make it easy on yourself, and unequivocally isolate the one problem which Nikon can deal with if it is the left-focus problem and if it happens to be something else that is the cause, Nikonian's or Nikon can help out with the other 18 causes


Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

I'm getting more confused the more I think about this. This confusion has a practical application: Nikon looked at my photos and said to send it in. Am I to not believe them until I do my own test?

So the only way to discern the problem is to do a test that Thom reports 40 percent of the people can not accomplish to his satisfaction? How can he monitor and judge the test conditions from his chair? What kind of useful test cannot be done by 40 percent of the people who test?

Let's break this down:

10 people test
4 fail to test correctly
6 people test correctly
2 people who test correctly have a problem
______________________
= 1.3 people who are failed testers (I am one of the test-incompetents) have the problem.

This means that almost 35 percent of the people who test have the focus problem. So if Thom's protocol is valid, Nikon has a very big problem on its hands, unless later models have been fixed.

So help me understand:

Let's stipulate the left sensor is bad. (With my camera it's the two left sensors, not one of them.) Let's further stipulate that all other live views and sensors are dead on. If left focus is bad, why do I need the elaborate test conditions and other 5 data points?

How about this test:

1. Live view left. Check. Nice and clear. (Not sure how this is relevant given the live focus sysem is different than the sensor focus system, but I digress.)
2. Left sensor shot: In focus or out of focus? Yes or no.
3. Test complete.

What is the flaw in that methodology? I bet few people would fail that test.

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If we're going to extrapolate based on Thom's statements, let's at least make sure that we quote him accurately

What he said today was that, of those responders (just over 60%) that have done what he considers to be an adequate test, "about a third have a camera that looks like it may have the problem" (my italics) - not "a third have the problem".

Also, I'm not sure it's valid to assume anything about the cameras of those who have not done an adequate test. And lastly, we don't know what his total population of responders is - if, for example, only those people who have seen something to make them think they have the problem do the test (or try to), we're clearly going to get a higher proportion of problems found than if ALL D800 owners had tested.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
Check out the Nikonians Team pages

A fair point. And your note about the sample group is of course dead on.

This does help to correctly quote the person who quoted Thom. What it confirms is that the mandatory test isn't conclusive. And that 40 percent might fail to test accurately. And 35 percent might have a problem.

My left two focus sensors are off. Every time, every shot, any condition.

To put it another way -- Anybody out there waiting for a d800 want to buy mine? It has a 5-year extended warranty from Mack that can transfer to the next purchaser.

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When we finally finish splitting hairs about our Fave, Nikon, these simple facts remain beyond hair splitting:

1. A not insignificant number of D800/800Es are flawed.
2. Nikon from Day One has been virtually silent about these flaws.
3. Some purchasers have been either charged for shipping, charged for a repair, been unable to get their camera repaired or been unable to exchange their defective camera for a new unflawed camera.

Blame the victim seems inappropriate. So does failure to frankly address Nikon's shortcomings on the D800/800E issue.

What's left for us to discuss? It's up to Nikon to show some corporate cojones and speak the truth ... whatever that may be.

Gator Bob Santa Fe New Mexico
D700 & SB800 * D800E as soon as Nikon gets its act together
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

>1. A not insignificant number of D800/800Es are flawed.

It is still the case that no-one has any conclusive data to prove what proportion of all D800's suffer from this particular problem. Thom's data-gathering so far seems to suggest that the number of people with the problem is fewer than the number of people who think they have the problem, though it is clear that the problem does exist in some cameras.

>2. Nikon from Day One has been virtually silent about these flaws.

Yes, they have said nothing officially to acknowledge a left-side AF problem - that's the main thing about this that disturbs me. I agree with Thom that Nikon are hurting themselves by not admitting that a problem exists

>3. Some purchasers have been either charged for shipping,
>charged for a repair, been unable to get their camera repaired
>or been unable to exchange their defective camera for a new
>unflawed camera.

True, but that is a one-sided statement - some purchasers have had a successful fix or exchange.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
Check out the Nikonians Team pages

>>3. Some purchasers have been either charged for shipping, charged for a repair, been unable to get their camera repaired or been unable to exchange their defective camera for a new unflawed camera.

>True, but that is a one-sided statement - some purchasers have had a successful fix or exchange.

Brian, does Nikon get a pass for abusing some Nikonians just because it did not subject other Nikonians to similar abuses? Nikon's sins of omission and commission on the D800/800E are inexcusable and unacceptable.

Gator Bob Santa Fe New Mexico
D700 & SB800 * D800E as soon as Nikon gets its act together
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

I don't really want to defend Nikon on that, as you do have a point, but I don't get all this shipping mumbo jumbo that people bother with. I just take my gear into my local bricks and mortar and they ship it and call me when they have it back. Nice and easy.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

>I'm getting more confused the more I think about this. This
>confusion has a practical application: Nikon looked at my
>photos and said to send it in. Am I to not believe them until
>I do my own test?

For what it is worth, I sent Nikon some images, they said send more, I did what they asked, they said "send it in for evaluation".

It gives me real pause as I read so many issues about repairs that actually made the problem worse.

So testing it further for me made the decision harder -- while there are anomalies in several lenses, I really have a problem in the real world only (near) wide open on my 85/1.4G. but on that lens it is a pretty big problem, enough I got started in all this testing #### due to bad portraits.

But I debated and debated whether it was worth the risk to have what is otherwise a stellar camera made worse, giving all the FUD going around on the internet over bad repairs.

I finally sent it in a few hours ago. I do like that I have a long series of baseline tests now when it comes back to see if they improved it, how much and whether anyother related aspects got worse.

But I would probably be just as happy with none of that, if when it comes back my portraits have a sharp eye instead of an ear.

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://captivephotons.com

Did you go with the rigorous testing, or are you basing this on real pictures? I did both. (I tried both but I'm one of the 40 percent who fail to test correctly.)

If you are talking about the left sensor problem, is it happening for you with every photo you take with that sensor? Any other focus problems?

Your posts suggest the problem varies with the lens. Are all lenses off focus with some more wrong than others, or are some on focus and some off? Lenses behaving differently is a complicating factor.

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Clarification of my test shots. I took several shots of real life object. same settings, tripod, different sensors. the left and right were significantly sharper than the center. The lenses that I used were sharp using the center focus before sending it in, just the extreme left and extreme right were blurry. I did not test all of the sensors, but sent it in for repair. I received it back and tested with the same lenses that were sharp in the center sensor. photos using the center sensor were now blurred compared to the left and right ones. I contacted nikon they sent me a next day shipping labels and apologies. I asked for either the camera fixed and back in my hands next weekend or a new working camera.

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>Clarification of my test shots. I took several shots of real
>life object. same settings, tripod, different sensors. the
>left and right were significantly sharper than the center. The
>lenses that I used were sharp using the center focus before
>sending it in, just the extreme left and extreme right were
>blurry. I did not test all of the sensors, but sent it in for
>repair. I received it back and tested with the same lenses
>that were sharp in the center sensor. photos using the center
>sensor were now blurred compared to the left and right ones. I
>contacted nikon they sent me a next day shipping labels and
>apologies. I asked for either the camera fixed and back in my
>hands next weekend or a new working camera.

Hi Peter, strictly speaking based on your description and this is where this topic is a bear, you may not have the left side focus problem. So this is where not following the protocol can lead to not getting the outcome we all desire for you

Based on your description you could have a different issue. Personally before sending it back in I would run the protocol and evaluate the results. At minimum you will have a more controlled baseline from which to evaluate Nikon's next fix. At maximum you may gain new insights into what the issue is.

I am surprised at the level of effort people are taking to not follow the protocol. My hope is you can only benefit from doing so.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
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I'm not avoiding the protocol.

I tried to follow the protocol and failed to satisfactorily conform to it.

Yet all of my protocol tests and all real world shots show a problem with left focus.

Protocol insistence assumes that its impossible to correctly discern a problem in real world shooting. Thats just plain wrong. Real world shooting is the only context in which a focus problem matters.

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TBH John,

Your description sounds indicative because your left point sounds like it is never delivering, which at least does match with a known aspect of the problem AFAIK. But unfortunately we can't grab your camera and test ourselves nor see what you are seeing. It sill shocks me that at this late stage the west coast shop has let the issue back out into the wild. Again just anecdotal but it sounds like the east coast shop has better success.

This problem of testing/verifying reminds me of the D7K days when that forum had similar challenges with early cameras and users and it took us a long while to work out. During those times, some testers were clearly not following protocol (by using angled focus targets) but bulled through with probable right end-result anyways.

But I don't think it hurts for all of us posters to use a great deal of care in testing, and to try and compare one for one PDAF to Live View using left, centre, and right (6 shots) because then at least you know what you are looking at. Then when describing what they are experiencing and what they can conclude from their tests, being as pedantically descriptive as possible so as to attain a good deal of certainty that their symptoms truly matches the known problem. In general when I post I cut to the chase due to time constraints, but for this problem verbal shorthand could really cloud the situation.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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Thanks SteveK

Are people with the true left focus problem seeing it some times and not others?

Btw mine is happening with far left and second one in from left.

What's TBH?

Thanks again


PS

I just popped over to dpreview where I found the thread you linked to with the shepherd target and protocol. He asks for the target to be placed at a point 27 times farther than the lens focal length. Not 25.

I should author a book on the evolution of focus testing from cave stone to film to digital.
In the chapter on the future I will cover multi-wavelength laser interference alignment in temperature and humidity controlled sea-level pressure environments.

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> In the chapter on the future I will cover multi-wavelength laser interference
> alignment in temperature and humidity controlled sea-level pressure
> environments.

John, That will be great for our 100 megapixel D1000's (or our triple oversampling 300mp D1200's) !

TBH is just To Be Honest...



Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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I did the protocol, found left focus problem with poor focus on right sensor as well. sent it in. It came back with left and right ok and center now soft. Agree that problem now is not the left focus point, but the center. I did not have the time to repeat the full tests before I sent it back for repair.

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Your description does not sound like the "left-side AF" problem that most of the complaints are about. That doesn't mean you don't hava a problem, but it may be a different one.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
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Critdoc:
If you adjust the fine tune for the center are the left and right still out the same degree? Did you have AF tuning on or off when you did your original tests. If it only happens with the 85 at 1.4, that is another variable that confuses the conclusions. If there is a field curvature problem with that lens, where adjustments to the AF compensate, you would expect the center to be off. Does the AF lock light trigger and remain stable when on the left or right FP?

This one appears to be a different problem than the typical AF -left FP error. Try AF tuning for the center and see what the response is to the left and right.
There is a different problem at work on those with all lenses and apertures being off than the original issue with specific left FP not focusing or capturing AF lock. There seems to be several different problems that have all been combined into one problem and one expected repair. They will not respond the same way to the same remedy attempts.
If indeed the problem is only using the 85, it is an important point and the standard test lens Nikon uses is the 50 1.4G which could explain why they gave the camera passing grade after testing and adjustment. Maybe they did not see your problem but found a minor problem when using the the 50 test lens and corrected that thinking it was your issue.
Does it or not, happen the exact same way on other lenses? Does the AF tuning clear up the center on the 85 and other lenses remain clear without AF tuning on them?

None of this is as clear cut and simple as many assume, there are lots of ways of getting out of focus images and lots of subsystems involved, any one of which would present similar but not the same symptoms. AF systems are extremely complex and not absolute systems.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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>None of this is as clear cut and simple as many assume, there
>are lots of ways of getting out of focus images and lots of
>subsystems involved, any one of which would present similar
>but not the same symptoms. AF systems are extremely complex
>and not absolute systems.

I think that's where a lot of the pressure to test is coming from. I have seen so many people reporting their setup as having a problem because they tried to "test" in an invalid fashion. The most common example is someone will take an image of a wall with r/l/c sensors, but look only at the center image each time to see if it is in focus. That more tests if the focal plane of the lens is flat, than if the sensor is OK, but if they do not understand that, they will come to the wrong conclusion. And in fact such a failed "test" is not actually indicative of a problem, as lens focal planes are not Expected to be perfectly flat.

That's a bit different than some samples here were a real world image is bad in what appears to be a clear cut way. I don't think anyone is suggesting you do not have a problem, but rather if you want to understand what the problem is, it may require more methodical testing.

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For timeframe purposes, I just ordered and received yesterday my D800 from Robert's Camera in Indianapolis and have detected no problems with it. The Salesperson, who owns a D800, said he was unaware of any focus problems, so who knows?

Hopefully, Nikon has fixed the problems...

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Did you do the test? Also required to confirm there is no problem. There are many variables involved with confirming no focus problem. Have you confirmed good focus with the procedure and test chart? Good focus can not be discerned through any other procedure.

(Offered in a light-hearted, Far Side sort of spirit.)



JO

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>(Offered in a light-hearted, Far Side sort of spirit.)

Is your spirit Live in your View, or is this just a Phase we Detect you going through?

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I'm starting to get a sensor deja-vu about all this...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian
Check out the Nikonians Team pages

>For timeframe purposes, I just ordered and received yesterday
>my D800 from Robert's Camera in Indianapolis and have detected
>no problems with it. The Salesperson, who owns a D800, said
>he was unaware of any focus problems, so who knows?
>
>Hopefully, Nikon has fixed the problems...

Please could you share the first 4 numbers of your S/N, thanks

Bernard

D800E
28-300, 24-120, 105 Micro, 85G, 50G, 28G
SB-910

Bit the bullet and returned the D800 this morning. I called AAFES and ordered a D800E for $3,056.00 when I got home. While there will be a 60 day minimum wait I think it will be worth it.

As I thought about the pro's and con's I realized that if I shipped it back to Melville this time (El Segundo the first time) I would have a camera with only 1,100 clicks on the shutter but over 6,500 miles in transit to and from repair centers. Just didn't seem right somehow.

Chuck

D800, D3s, 14-24, 24-70, 24-120 f4, 70-200 VR and VRIIx2, 80-400 VR, Sigma 150-500.

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>Bit the bullet and returned the D800 this morning. I called
>AAFES and ordered a D800E for $3,056.00 when I got home. While
>there will be a 60 day minimum wait I think it will be worth
>it.

I'm impressed they are discounting them, hope to hear your new camera works out better.


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The camera is back at Nikon service and in the shop getting another b1 repair. will update when it is returned.

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I have been considering moving to an 800e from a D3. However reading these postings leaves me with great pause. Question: has Nikon dealt with the focus problem in the manufacturing process? If so, does anyone know with what serial number the problem was solved?

Thanks for your advice.

Kit

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>I have been considering moving to an 800e from a D3. However
>reading these postings leaves me with great pause. Question:
>has Nikon dealt with the focus problem in the manufacturing
>process? If so, does anyone know with what serial number the
>problem was solved?

I don't think anyone knows as Nikon is not talking. Read and you'll find every opinion voraciously defended, but few facts.

Buy from someone returnable, and I think it is a fair bet (a) you won't have the problem, and (b) even if you do, you will like the camera so much you will either tolerate it or get it fixed instead of giving up the camera, but (c) you have (probably) 30 days to decide.


Linwood

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Nikon is not going to say anything unless a reporter with a camera storms their corporate headquarters. To the best of my knowledge, there's been a lot of whining in the internet forums but no real complaining to the media, class action attorneys, or consumer reports. If people were making a concerted effort to shed media light on this issue, Nikon would be very quick to capitulate.

So long as people are simply coming to these forums to complain and do nothing to make this a larger issue, Nikon will continue behaving the way it has been.

I really like my D7000 but was wanting to go to the D800 - I will not make the change. I am now considering my future with Nikon as new models will continue to flow from other sources. A shame....

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Plus 1 ... maybe ... although I expect to order a post-flaw D800/E and see for myself, first.

Gator Bob Santa Fe New Mexico
D700 & SB800 * D800E as soon as Nikon gets its act together
Nikkors: *14-24 * 28-300 * PC-E 85mm *50mm 1.8
Tamron 90mm Macro

Just to add to the chatter: Ran Thom's procedure to test D800 on two lenses. A 24-70mm f/2.8 and 50mm f/1.4. Results were conclusive left autofocus problem which was corroborated by more than a 10% reduction in file size of the left autofocus photos compared to the center and right in viewfinder mode. Nikon wanted to see photos before accepting camera for their inspection. After receipt of the photos Nikon requested I send the camera to Melville at their shipping cost. Nikon had the camera for 7 days and returned it with an invoice that gave no indication of any work having been performed. The web info showed a B1 repair. I ran the tests again after receiving the camera back and discovered as follows: Left autofocus and right autofocus in viewfinder were substantially identical and center viewfinder autofocus had been materially degraded and was worse than the original left autofocus problem. The center autofocus photos were now more than 10% smaller in file size than the left and right autofocus photos in viewfinder. Further, the live view photos also showed a file size reduction materially smaller than the initial series of test photos. All photos taken at 90 inches exactly from target on wall. All targets were identical and placed on hard board. RRS heavy tripod used. All lighting was identical for all photos taken. All photos taken at 1/50th sec at 24mm for the 24-70 lens. Focus racked before each photo taken. To perform these tests correctly takes several hours time of setup and review of the photos. Called Nikon and they requested I return the camera to them. Wrote them a long letter and enclosed the test photos taken initially before first repair and photos taken after return of camera. Demanded the problem be fixed or a new camera delivered to me that has been tested by Nikon and determined to not be subject to the autofocus problem. If I receive back the camera again without the matter having been resolved I will kick it up a notch and demand a new camera. If that fails I will of course resort to litigation.

Wow

This is interesting. Other people have reported this same experience. It's the first I have seen word about the file size being smaller. Is that a possible new "easy" indicator that eliminates the need for the Thom protocol?

My camera is on its way back for a second visit. Has your camera been in once to twice already?

Why is this happening? Can the camera not be fixed? Incompetent repair person?

Is litigation cost feasible? If an action can be filed locally in s,all claims court it could be an option but if I have to pay a lawyer in El Seguendo it becomes a question.

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Not only is the file size smaller, when I look at the subject distance in the exif data in Photoshop, my far left PDAF shots always show a distance about .5 meters farther than the shots taken using contrast detect AF in live view.
Dave Jolley

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>Not only is the file size smaller, when I look at the subject
>distance in the exif data in Photoshop, my far left PDAF shots
>always show a distance about .5 meters farther than the shots
>taken using contrast detect AF in live view.
>Dave Jolley

I just checked my files and they are also smaller, Center the larger one, Right in between and Left the smallest one.

Can you let us know what EXIF value are you looking got distance, I would like to check that as well, thanks

Bernard

D800E
28-300, 24-120, 105 Micro, 85G, 50G, 28G
SB-910

Subject Distance is one of the metadata items shown for files in Adobe Bridge. You have to select it in Bridge preferences before it will show up.
Dave Jolley

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>Not only is the file size smaller, when I look at the subject
>distance in the exif data in Photoshop, my far left PDAF shots
>always show a distance about .5 meters farther than the shots
>taken using contrast detect AF in live view.
>Dave Jolley

If you are shooting in a compressed format not uncompressed RAW, you would expect out of focus images to generally be smaller than in focus images that have a lot of detail, as those detailed edges take more data to represent. I've never tested it, but it seems intuitively so. Try it (I have no camera with me).

I also think that's probably a poor indicator, as slight variations in the original image (e.g. more uniform wall and less target, or just less shadow on the texture of the wall) could also produce images that are visually similar but that compress differently.

The distance is a much more interesting factor, as that may be giving you the indication of back/front focus that is occurring, i.e. the sensor is actually calculating a focus point far ahead of or behind the target, recording that fact.

Be careful with live view and file size -- I one day made the mistake of being in movie mode. It may sound silly but you can do that and not notice as the shutter still takes a regular image but slightly cropped -- smaller. I stared at that for ages on my PC before figuring out what I had done.

I also just have to observe, and I know some will say "I'm never doing fine tune" -- you really need to fine tune the center before judging the focus. To me it's a very positive thing that the left/right now match, and a non-event that the center is off, unless it can't be fine tuned. Depending on the lens, you might just be surprised if you fine tune the center to be right, the check the right/left again.

When mine comes back other than a few quick shots to see grossly what happened, that's the order of the day -- take the most difficult lens (for me a 85/1.4G), fine tune the center carefully, then shoot the left/right/center with live view then AF, and see what's up. I'm hoping for similar results on all three, but if my 85/1.4 is off a bit (but symmetrical) on the left/right, I will not worry, as that's an incredibly thin DOF.

I will then take a more normal lens, like the 24-70/2.8, and do the same (including fine tune). On that lens I would expect almost no difference in left/right/center.

Then I'll use that lens (or the 85) to test all 51 focus points with Focal to see how consistent -- run that through 2-3 times to see if it in turn is consistent, and expect mostly green or a bit of yellow, no glaring red on the quality of focus chart.

If I'm OK so far I tune my other lenses, as I think if I get through that I am fixed. But I am expecting radical change in fine tune from when I sent it out, as they are going through a whole recalibration (I hope).

Linwood

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I thought you would be interested in the focus problem issues and fix from Asia. http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/07/04/nikon-d800e-focusing-update-problem-solved/

Kit

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Just got the camera back from the second attempt at repair, now all the sensors are equally soft. Will try AF fine tune to see how bad things are. Using 35mm 1,4G wide open USAF focus target

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ok sharp pictures using live view, fuzzy pictures using the viewfinder on a tripod. Nikon wants me to send it in again! I am asking for refund or replacement. Spoke with supervisor "Omar" he begged for one last chance. Probably will send it in unless I can convince the dealer to swap it for a newer serial number.

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Sorry to hear that! Is that after tuning?

Best regards, SteveK

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That was before fine tuning, will be trying that today before I send it back to nikon. I emailed Thom Hogan and he suggests that as the 3 sensors tested are roughly equal in fuzzyness. He said he needed to calibrate all of his lenses with the d800/800E
I will update

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