Go to a  "printer friendly" view of this message which allow an easy print Printer-friendly copy Go to the page which allows you to send this topic link and a message to a friend Email this topic to a friend
Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon 1 Cameras (Public) topic #2580
View in linear mode

Subject: "Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm" Previous topic | Next topic
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Thu 10-Jan-13 02:02 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
"Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
Thu 10-Jan-13 02:16 PM by walk43

Pennsylvania, US
          

ALL,

I would like your honest opinions. Would you consider this a "good shot"?

I took the first below shot at f/16, 1/160sec., ISO400 at 918mm tripod mounted...and about 60 feet away. This was not a 'well planned' shot as I am still testing out the V1 with the 70-200VR and the TC-17EII, tripod mounted with normal shutter release....no timer or remote. Post processed in PS/CS3.

In my opinion this would be an ok shot... but not a great shot. Or at that distance with this size bird is this about what we should expect? Has anyone done a 900mm shot of a 4" bird at 60 feet and got better results you can show me(us)?

I am trying to see what I should expect with this combo at these distances and subject sizes.

Also, I have included a second shot of a Cardinal at 300 feet with about the same settings from a monopod at 918mm.

All opinions on both shots are very welcome.





Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
Snappo Silver Member
10th Jan 2013
1
Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
walk43 Gold Member
10th Jan 2013
4
Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
jbloom Gold Member
10th Jan 2013
2
Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
walk43 Gold Member
10th Jan 2013
3
     Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
jbloom Gold Member
10th Jan 2013
5
          Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
walk43 Gold Member
10th Jan 2013
6
          Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
walk43 Gold Member
11th Jan 2013
7
               Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
nwcs Silver Member
11th Jan 2013
8
               Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
walk43 Gold Member
11th Jan 2013
9
               Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
jbloom Gold Member
11th Jan 2013
11
Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
JonK Moderator
11th Jan 2013
10
Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
walk43 Gold Member
11th Jan 2013
12
     Reply message RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm
JonK Moderator
11th Jan 2013
13
     Reply message IPad
tgreenwald Silver Member
12th Jan 2013
14

Snappo Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Apr 2004Thu 10-Jan-13 03:59 PM
262 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#1. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 0


Tulsa, US
          

Looks like it meets the "good shot" test to me. I have the V2 and just received a 70-200mm, still need to get the TC.

We have been pleased with the results using a higher ISO than you used. I would like to see if it would be sharper at ISO 1600, that would bump the shutter to only 1/640, taking the aperture down to f11 would move the shutter to 1/1280. Will have to do some of this expermenting and learning myself when I get the rest of the gear.

Have followed your posts with a great deal of interest.

an old duffer with the time to have fun,
Jim

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Thu 10-Jan-13 05:27 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#4. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 1
Thu 10-Jan-13 05:52 PM by walk43

Pennsylvania, US
          

Thanks Jim,

See my response to Jon so that I don't repeat myself to much. Your suggestions are good ones. It just turned out that the pics I chose had those settings. I always try to use the lowest ISO, fastest shutter and deepest DOF aperture settings I can (don't we all).... but for me, something always gets twisted up after I have the set-up made...haha Guess that's why I'm a just a hobbist!!

Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

jbloom Gold Member Awarded for the continuous and generous sharing of his high level expertise and his always encouraging comments in several forums. Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Thu 10-Jan-13 04:30 PM
6101 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#2. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 0


Wethersfield, US
          

I should preface this by pointing out that I'm not a birder. That said, no, I don't consider those to be particularly good shots. It's a little hard to tell at the size you posted, but I'm not seeing fine detail. In the cardinal shot, the red channel seems to be severely blown out, either through overexposure or faulty post-processing.

As to whether there are better 900-mm shots to compare to, well, I certainly don't have any. I'm just comparing your shots to ones I've seen on the Wildlife forum of similar size birds. However those were taken, many of them are much better than these shots. So if that's the standard you're trying to achieve, I think you have some work to do.

I notice a couple of things that I think may be at issue here. First is that I believe you are asking a great deal of the 70-200 plus 1.7 TC. If that is the original 70-200, not the VR II version, I can say that my experience with that combination on DX bodies has been unsatisfactory. And if it's unsatisfactory on DX, it can only be worse on CX. (I suppose I could test that since I have the necessary pieces... if only I weren't so lazy!)

Second, your shutter speed is awfully low. Even on a tripod, it's tough to avoid a bit of motion blur at 1/160 and 900 mm. You would definitely need good long-lens technique. I don't quite understand why you are at f/16 anyway. The wide-open aperture of that combo is f/4.8, so even if you dropped down a stop to f/6.3 you would still be able to improve the shutter speed quite a bit. You may also be getting diffraction effects at f/16, although I think those are not the main issue here.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Thu 10-Jan-13 05:21 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#3. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 2
Thu 10-Jan-13 05:49 PM by walk43

Pennsylvania, US
          

Thanks Jon,

I have a few really good bird shots from my D800 taken when I am at close distance. Most birders I have talked to say that small birds taken at over 20ft make a tuff challenge for feather detail.

As you mentioned, it is the 918mm that I am concerned with ...not whether these shots compare to other bird shots taken at closer distances. As an example....some of the photos taken by papparazzi lately at 1/2 mile away with a super tele lens are very blurry. You can see who it is but they are blurry and low quality. I have one picture taken at 1/2 mile away with the V1 and I can see individual bricks on an outside wall...but NOT the sand in the morter.

It's the subject size and distance I think. Seems to me that depending on the size of the subject (and feather detail is about a small as it gets for most of us), there is a distance that you just can't get it.... regardless of zoom. Optimum settings obviously help but my real question is when do you reach the point of diminishing returns assuming that all other things are 'perfect'? And what does a really good picture look like of a 7 inch subject that was taken at say 300ft with a V1 or other digital camera?

Also...you are correct that I still need to improve my technique. But I would like to see some shots taken at 300 ft with any lens at all on any camera at all to see what's possible.

Finally, I can't tell you why the settings were what they were. I was just testing things out and these pics were examples I chose for comparison.

I really appreciate your input!!

PS: I have seen some terrific small bird shots with a V1, 500 f/4 and FT-1 (1350mm eq) on Flicker....but I don't know how far the bird was from the lens... It looks like it was closer than 50ft.

Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
jbloom Gold Member Awarded for the continuous and generous sharing of his high level expertise and his always encouraging comments in several forums. Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Thu 10-Jan-13 06:03 PM
6101 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#5. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 3


Wethersfield, US
          

I realize that things get problematic at really long distances. Even atmospherics start to play a part. But you were at 60 feet, you said; I think you should be able to achieve better detail at that distance given the right equipment, technique and conditions. I think the shots I posted in this thread were at about the same distance. And those were pretty much out-of-the-camera shots that hadn't been optimized. Here's the 1800-mm shot (AF-S 400 f/2.8 plus TC-17E II) as processed using my limited PS skills:



Sure, it's still the case that nothing improves a shot like getting closer, but I think the V1 is capable of pretty good performance at a distance with the right lens and light.

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Thu 10-Jan-13 06:17 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#6. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 5


Pennsylvania, US
          

Good shots Jon! Looks like I have some work to do to match up to your results. Think I will mount my 300 f/4 on my 17TC when the sun comes out again and have another go at it!

I appreciate the feedback...quite helpful!

Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Fri 11-Jan-13 02:55 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#7. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 5


Pennsylvania, US
          

Jon,

Not too much sun this morning but I put my 300 f/4 with the TC17 on the V1 this morning and got this shot from about 25 feet. Guess the 300 is both the better lens and the extra reach helps. This is at 1350mm FOV. Getting there... but really want to see what a nice sunny day will do!!


Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Fri 11-Jan-13 04:34 PM
6821 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#8. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 7


Knoxville, US
          

That is a nice finch shot!

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Fri 11-Jan-13 04:55 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#9. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 8


Pennsylvania, US
          

Thank you Neil,

I like bird photos and just recently decided to try and get better at it. Most of my work has been close up and macro....but I am just in awe over the bird shots I see in the Wildlife Forum. I have always wanted to get a really good picture of a Kestral and there are several in that forum that are an inspiration for me. Some of you guys are REALLY GOOD!! Gives me some motivation to get better.

Maybe the V1 will get me closer to where I want to be image wise...and I will try to brush up my D800 long tele skills as well. Seems like it's going to be a full summer (when it ever gets to PA).

Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
jbloom Gold Member Awarded for the continuous and generous sharing of his high level expertise and his always encouraging comments in several forums. Nikonian since 15th Jul 2004Fri 11-Jan-13 06:22 PM
6101 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#11. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 7


Wethersfield, US
          

That's definitely more like it!

-- Jon
Wethersfield, CT, USA
Connecticut High School Sports Photos

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

JonK Moderator Awarded for his high level skills and in-depth knowledge in various areas, such as Wildlife, Landscape and Stage Photography Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2004Fri 11-Jan-13 06:08 PM
4466 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#10. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 0


New York, US
          

I agree, the weakest part of your process is the TC-17. It never performed particularly well for me with any lens. I urge you to borrow the TC-14 and TH-20E III — with either your quality will improve.

If I have some time over the weekend I will shoot some test shots with both TCs.

Be very careful about developing a love of bird photography. NAS is particularly ugly in this specialty — the 200-400, the 400, the 500, the 600 big tripods with Wimberleys, trips to southwest Texas…

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
walk43 Gold Member Nikonian since 07th Feb 2012Fri 11-Jan-13 07:01 PM
695 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#12. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 10


Pennsylvania, US
          

Thanks guys....I appreciate your encouragement.

I don't have to worry about high cost NAS for birding. I can't afford the BIG glass for hobby work. But the V1 is getting me more where I think I might be at least satisfied.

PS: I know folks say that the TC14 is better than the TC17 but I had not heard that the new TC20 was better than the TC17. I might be tempted by another TC if I prove to myself that it is my gear and not my technique. But my technique still has a way to go I think...and my patience.

Dan (Nikon D800 & V2)

"My most rewarding photos are those that capture something I didn't 'see' in the frame....so just SHOOT."

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
JonK Moderator Awarded for his high level skills and in-depth knowledge in various areas, such as Wildlife, Landscape and Stage Photography Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2004Fri 11-Jan-13 07:25 PM
4466 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#13. "RE: Need Honest Opinions- Finch @ 918mm"
In response to Reply # 12


New York, US
          

The TC-20E III — that's 3 — is clearly better. On your D800 it makes you 70-200 into a handholdable 400mm. On your V1…

The solution to big glass may, to some extent, be the V1. The solution to impatience is to go somewhere where there are lots of birds — a target-rich environment. Think zoo with bird house, southwest Texas bird ranch, Florida Everglades…

Jon Kandel
A New York City Nikonian and Team Member
Please visit my website and critique the images!

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
tgreenwald Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Dec 2005Sat 12-Jan-13 10:08 AM
1464 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to send message via AOL IM
#14. "IPad"
In response to Reply # 12
Sun 13-Jan-13 06:08 AM by tgreenwald

Delray Beach, US
          

The mention of Long Lens Technique is worth mentioning again and is very important with such long focal lengths. Here is the link-worth reading again-

http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/guides/tripod_technique/index.html

Try to keep shutter speed up to 1/800 or more for sharper detail. If there light is low a nice SB800 or SB900 and a Flash Extender will give you a stop or 2 more speed.

Best part of this hobby is if you buy good used gear and take care of it you will get most of your money back when you sell or not loose too much. I recently sold ALL of my big lenses and bodies and my wife was amazed at how much came back.

Just keep practicing.

EXIF Summary: 1/800s f/6.3 ISO800 280mm (35mm eq:756mm)

This little camera can do good detail in good conditions. I shot this lizard today with my 80-200mm f2.8 with a 1.4 TC at f4. On a Gitzo GT3531 Tripod with a Kirk BH-1 head. I used long lens technique. The detail is good enough for me to do scale counts to try to ID this exotic lizard!

I don't think that for me the V1 with a 200mm lens of any kind is hand holdable for sharp detail and it needs to be on a solid mount or have shutter speeds of over 1/2500 sec or close to that? I'm still learning a bit. For me 1/800 second seems to be a critical shutter speed so I started to use Shutter Priority which I hardly ever do or Program and adjust for more speed.

ISO- 800 seems to be fairly low noise and good detail.


I










www.teddgreenwald.com





Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon 1 Cameras (Public) topic #2580 Previous topic | Next topic


Take the Nikonians Tour and learn more about being a Nikonian Wiki /FAQ /Help Listen to our MP3 photography radio channels Find anything on Nikon and imaging technology - fast!

Copyright © Nikonians 2000, 2014
All Rights Reserved

Nikonians®, NikoScope® and NikoniansAcademy™ are trademarks owned by Nikonians.org.
Nikon®, Nikonos® and Nikkor® are registered trademarks of Nikon Corporation.