nikonians

Even though we ARE Nikon lovers,we are NOT affiliated with Nikon Corp. in any way.

| |
Go to a  "printer friendly" view of this message which allow an easy print Printer-friendly copy Go to the page which allows you to send this topic link and a message to a friend Email this topic to a friend
Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon 1 Cameras (Public) topic #1974
View in linear mode

Subject: "Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!" Previous topic | Next topic
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 21-Oct-12 04:28 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
"Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
Sun 21-Oct-12 04:30 PM by richardd300

Dyserth, UK
          

Just for fun, attached are two images taken today of a Little Egret. One was taken with a D800 and 300mm f4, the other with a V1 fitted with a VR 30-100mm f3.8-5.6. The distance from the Egret to camera were identical and taken one after another.

You choose please, which one is the V1 or the D80

Richard




Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills
21st Oct 2012
1
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
21st Oct 2012
2
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
jpFoto
21st Oct 2012
3
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
21st Oct 2012
4
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography
22nd Oct 2012
5
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
22nd Oct 2012
6
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
Lewis_F Silver Member
23rd Oct 2012
7
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
23rd Oct 2012
8
     Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
bjj Silver Member
23rd Oct 2012
9
          Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
23rd Oct 2012
10
               Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
jpFoto
24th Oct 2012
11
                    Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
24th Oct 2012
12
                    Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
jpFoto
24th Oct 2012
13
                         Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
24th Oct 2012
14
                              Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
RRRoger Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his long history of demonstrated excellence and helping other members with equipment, technique and DSLR video in the true Nikonians spirit.
26th Oct 2012
15
                                   Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
26th Oct 2012
16
                    Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
KnightPhoto Gold Member
27th Oct 2012
18
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
KnightPhoto Gold Member
27th Oct 2012
17
Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
27th Oct 2012
19
     Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
KnightPhoto Gold Member
27th Oct 2012
20
          Reply message RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!
richardd300 Silver Member
27th Oct 2012
21

briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 21-Oct-12 05:00 PM
29322 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#1. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 0


Paignton, UK
          

The greter depth of field in number 1 suggests that it was taken with the V1 - but just looking at the main subject, I see little to choose between them at this size

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 21-Oct-12 06:18 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#2. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 1


Dyserth, UK
          

Thanks for the guess, I'll wait hopefully for a few more and then reveal the answer.

I have only had the V1 4 days, but it is a remarkable small camera. Of course todays light was absolutely perfect. I am about to buy the outrageously priced FT-1 to have some fun with my AF-S lenses, more out of interest than serious photography work. That's two cameras in 7 weeks which have done what's promised of them virtually "out of the box".

Richard.

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

jpFoto Registered since 25th Jun 2010Sun 21-Oct-12 10:04 PM
1114 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#3. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 21-Oct-12 10:11 PM by jpFoto

US
          

Richard,

I've been on the fence about ordering a V1 at these prices, so if the 2nd (lower) one is from the V1, I'm going to place my order tonight. The detail on the feathers, the legs, the objects in the water and the saturated colors are very impressive.

Since I don't want a D800, I hope that the lower one is the V!.

jP

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 21-Oct-12 10:47 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#4. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 3
Sun 21-Oct-12 11:16 PM by richardd300

Dyserth, UK
          

OK, from now on the images can be a talking point.

Image 1: is the Nikon V1 Lens: Nikon 1 30-110mm f3.8-5.6 1/500 @ f7.1 - ISO200. Focal length 110mm.

Image 2: is the D800 Lens: 300mm f4 1/1600 f4.0 ISO 100 EV - 0.67. Focal length 300mm.

Both images were hand held.

Obviously the light was excellent which was a big advantage to the V1, but my intention is to show what can be achieved with the V1 and a standard V1 lens. All things of course were not equal, but I think either image is acceptable. I sold my Coolpix P6000 to help fund the Nikon 1 and the flexibility of interchangeable lenses has already convinced me I have made a satisfactory decision.

So, well done Brian. Sorry jP, but this is a very good camera and later next week I hope to show some more images and some with a AF-S lens attached to the FT-1 adapter. It is not my intention to go wholesale down the FT-1 route, but am very interested to have another camera in my toolbox nevertheless.

Of course it is expected that a V2 will be announced this week, but with few major changes apart from perhaps GPS. We shall see


Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

nwcs Silver Member Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Landscape and Wildlife Photography Nikonian since 15th Jan 2006Mon 22-Oct-12 09:53 PM
6892 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#5. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 0


Knoxville, US
          

Having both the V1 and D800 I could recognize the look a little, too. But still nice shots with both! It is great having the option, too, when you need it for one or the other.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Mon 22-Oct-12 10:13 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#6. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 5


Dyserth, UK
          

Two cameras in 6 weeks and am totally comfortable with both, but always learning. Wish that had been the same with my D7000! In their own ways they are remarkable cameras.

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Lewis_F Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Apr 2012Tue 23-Oct-12 01:50 AM
3 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#7. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 0


Long Beach, US
          

I took advantage of the Adorama offer and just got my V1 for $399. I just wanted to say how impressed I am by this little thing. I have the D800E but wanted a lightweight and "fun" alternative for those times I did not want the "full monty" .

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Tue 23-Oct-12 12:26 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#8. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 7


Dyserth, UK
          

It certainly is fun. My FT-1 and SB-N5 flash arrived this morning. Unfortunately it's foggy here, so cannot post a sample with the FT-1 fitted to an AF-S lens. I will as soon as we have a brighter day.

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
bjj Silver Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2009Tue 23-Oct-12 07:56 PM
58 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#9. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 8


Ryde. Isle of Wight, UK
          

Hi Richard,

To be honest I could only tell the difference by checking the exif data. The V1 is a remarkable little camera (I have a couple, sorry had a couple - my daughter now has one!!)
Have found that the VR of the "standard lenses" does not quite take all the movement out when fully extended and having to use the pitifully slow shutter speeds our wonderful weather forces on us. But in bright sunshine or using a tripod, I have no complaints!!!
Usually use mine with a 70-300 VR attached, find it a very pleasing combination to hold and shot (810mm without the need for muscles!!)
Can't wait to see what you can produce with your 28-300 VR attached, or even your 70-200 VR. I tried my 18-200 VR but was a little dissapointed - still it was a dullish day and I had no tripod with me at the time.
If there is a gripe it's the fact that the screen blacks-out whilst processing after letting go of the shutter, I cannot resist using it in 10fps bursts!! So takes a second or two before the screen flashes back into life. I use a SanDisk Extreme (Class 10) 32Gb SDHC card and record RAW + JPEG which gives well over a 2,000 shot capability - even have a back-up card!!
When the weather breaks ………………….

All the best Brian

If in doubt shoot it! There will never be a second chance.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Tue 23-Oct-12 08:41 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#10. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 9
Tue 23-Oct-12 08:47 PM by richardd300

Dyserth, UK
          

<<Can't wait to see what you can produce with your 28-300 VR attached, or even your 70-200 VR.>>

My SB-N5 flash and FT-1 lens converter arrived today. The weather here is foggy so no opportunity to try today. However, I did fit the 70-200mm with the FT-1 and was surprised to find when VR was switched on the VR kept whirring constantly and not just when half pressing the shutter release. It's an old lens and I don't expect it's doing any harm. The 28-300mm, 16-35 were noiseless with VR on but without the shutter half pressed.

I don't expect to see any sun until Saturday, but as long as it's good light I'll try again tomorrow and report back.

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
jpFoto Registered since 25th Jun 2010Wed 24-Oct-12 01:16 AM
1114 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#11. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 10
Wed 24-Oct-12 01:28 AM by jpFoto

US
          

Richard,

As you know, I'm still on the fence for the V1, but even if I decide to order it, I'm not going to buy the FT-1. My purchase would only be for use when I wouldn't, or couldn't, carry a D3s or a D600, my cameras. So, let me ask you since you are going to use your V1 and your 28-300 or your 70-200 with the FT-1 when the sun shines again in GB. If the photograph of a lifetime appears in your viewfinder, are you going to regret not having your D800? Is it going to make a bigger difference to you that the V1 weighs less and the D800, or is it going to make a bigger difference to you that the IQ of the D800 might have been better?

My point is that once you twist a big lens like the 70-200 onto a V1 that it's no longer a small little camera that you can take anywhere and not be noticed. Instead, it's basically the same size as any camera but it "may not" have the IQ of your D800.

jP

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Wed 24-Oct-12 07:27 AM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#12. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 11


Dyserth, UK
          

Couldn't agree more. The inclusion of an FT-1 in my kit may well be a temporary apparition, but I am fascinated by the ability to achieve images via the flexibility of the Nikon 1 + the AF-S lenses. The V1 + FT-1 sits in my camera bag and weighs less than the MB-D12 grip, so it's not going to be a burden. However, if the shot that might have got away is a long way away, then it may just enable it to be captured via the extra reach. It also is flexible enough to carry as a second body with wider angle lenses where sometimes the long AF-S long lenses make the required wide angle capture unachievable.

Richard.

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
jpFoto Registered since 25th Jun 2010Wed 24-Oct-12 09:25 AM
1114 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#13. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 12


US
          

Richard,

While I understand what you are saying, and without starting another "reach" thread which I really, really, do not want to do, but since the D800 is a 36 mp camera and the V1 is a 10 mp camera, and also since the weather is iffy in Merry Old England, how about an experiment. Put both cameras on a tripod and take a picture of the same subject with the same settings, same lens, etc. Then, crop the D800 image 270x so that it has the same field of view as the full frame V1 and tell me which is better.

jP

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Wed 24-Oct-12 10:09 AM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#14. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 13


Dyserth, UK
          

That's exactly what I'm hoping to do, the weather is improving so hopefully in a few days. Interesting to see how the V2 will perform in the same scenario to.

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                
RRRoger Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his long history of demonstrated excellence and helping other members with equipment, technique and DSLR video in the true Nikonians spirit. Charter MemberFri 26-Oct-12 02:51 PM
3176 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#15. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 14
Sat 27-Oct-12 06:04 AM by RRRoger

Monterey Bay, US
          

I like the top (V1) picture better.
I may go out in the yard and take some pictures of Egrets myself.
I have the FT-1 and it is fun to use and the pictures are great,
but I agree it defeats the purpose of a "Pocket" camera.
So I prefer using CX lens, they are surprisingly good.

I've decided to keep my V1.
I just ordered the new 18.5mm f/1.8 for indoor Video.
It may prove to be good for close up work as well.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Fri 26-Oct-12 03:27 PM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#16. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 15


Dyserth, UK
          

<<I like the top (V1) picture better>>.

I agree, that's my choice too. I have to accept that the weather was unusual for the UK, in that the sun was out and conditions were about as good as they get here. I'm not sure whether the results would have been similar pitched against a dull overcast day, I guess my D800 would win hands down. I certainly hope it would.

I have the FT-1 and have only used it to test it so far. The one thing I do like is in my backyard fitted with a 300mm f4 I hope to capture garden birds with silent shutter and super fast fps.

As for the viewfinder I like it, but have reduced the brightness.

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 27-Oct-12 06:05 AM
4464 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#18. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 11


Alberta, CA
          

>As you know, I'm still on the fence for the V1, but even if I
>decide to order it, I'm not going to buy the FT-1. My
>purchase would only be for use when I wouldn't, or couldn't,
>carry a D3s or a D600, my cameras. ...
>
>My point is that once you twist a big lens like the 70-200
>onto a V1 that it's no longer a small little camera that you
>can take anywhere and not be noticed...

Back in Spring I tried my FT-1 on my 500mm but had fairly limited, erm no success, so I put the FT-1 away for the summer. However, I recently went out with my 70-300VR on the FT-1 and liked it a lot.

When I'm out birding or hiking with my big DSLR and super-telephoto and have worn myself thoroughly out by mid-day, switching to the FT-1 and a reasonable lens such as the FT-1/70-300 during the bright afternoon light is reasonable and doable. Then end of day with golden hour, switch back to the big rigs again.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 27-Oct-12 05:51 AM
4464 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#17. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat 27-Oct-12 05:53 AM by KnightPhoto

Alberta, CA
          

I didn't peek. DOF of foreground grasses means #1 is V1 and #2 is D800?

Had I not had that clue, my answer might have been a lot tougher. OK, posting now so I can peek... fun quiz and nice samples!

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sat 27-Oct-12 06:46 AM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#19. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 17


Dyserth, UK
          

I guess now as winter approaches all too quickly, the opportunities of satisfactory light to enable FT-1 opportunities will be few. I hope to try my 300mm F4 out if we do get some reasonable light.

A few questions please The V1 has in built VR, so if I fitted my eg. 70-200mm and switched its VR on, would there be a conflict between the camera and lens VR systems? Or, does the in camera VR switch off when a VR lens it fitted. Also, is the in camera VR as efficient as lens VR. I ask this because my 300mm f4 is of course without VR. Your input would be appreciated.

As you can see I'm still finding my way around the camera

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 27-Oct-12 07:27 AM
4464 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#20. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 19


Alberta, CA
          

No in built VR in the V1 - problem solved!

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
My Nikonians gallery
My Nikonians Blog

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sat 27-Oct-12 07:56 AM
3557 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#21. "RE: Nikon D800 or Nikon V1 - You chose!"
In response to Reply # 20


Dyserth, UK
          

Thanks Steve. I think I got confused somewhere along the line, but that's not unusual these days

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon 1 Cameras (Public) topic #1974 Previous topic | Next topic