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Subject: "Raw way dark, see here Part 2" Previous topic | Next topic
steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Thu 05-May-11 03:03 PM
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"Raw way dark, see here Part 2"


Englewood, US
          

I will show you how the D7000 camera monitor shows the image vs VNX & LR3.
This is minus 3 EV, part of an exposure bracket. Regardless, the appearances do not match.











Steve Z
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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
luckyphoto Silver Member
05th May 2011
1
Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
steveZ Silver Member
05th May 2011
4
Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
gkaiseril Gold Member
05th May 2011
2
Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
steveZ Silver Member
05th May 2011
3
     Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
kuzzy Silver Member
05th May 2011
5
     Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
gkaiseril Gold Member
05th May 2011
6
     Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
gkaiseril Gold Member
06th May 2011
13
          Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
steveZ Silver Member
06th May 2011
15
               Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
gkaiseril Gold Member
06th May 2011
16
Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
aolander Silver Member
05th May 2011
7
Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
DeanAZ Moderator
05th May 2011
8
     Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
steveZ Silver Member
05th May 2011
9
          Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2
kuzzy Silver Member
06th May 2011
10
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steveZ Silver Member
06th May 2011
11
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Robman3
06th May 2011
12
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kuzzy Silver Member
06th May 2011
14
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DeanAZ Moderator
07th May 2011
17
                         Reply message RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2 UPDATE
steveZ Silver Member
03rd Oct 2011
20

luckyphoto Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Dec 2010Thu 05-May-11 03:32 PM
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#1. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Port Charlotte, US
          

The viewfinder image is JPEG, which utilizes in-camera processing settings. The image you download is NEF which bypasses most of those in-camera settings. You have to add them back in during post processing.

RAW (NEF) files will always look flat and usually a bit soft. That's normal.

Temporarily change your camera setting to capture RAW+JPEG, re-format your cards and shoot a few photos. Then compare the RAW versus the same JPEG in your LR software. You'll see the differences.

Larry

"Red is gray and yellow white, but we decide which is right
....and which is an illusion"

Moody Blues - Nights in White Satin

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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Thu 05-May-11 04:24 PM
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#4. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 1


Englewood, US
          

>The viewfinder image is JPEG, which utilizes in-camera
>processing settings. The image you download is NEF which
>bypasses most of those in-camera settings. You have to add
>them back in during post processing.
>
>RAW (NEF) files will always look flat and usually a bit soft.
>That's normal.
>
>Temporarily change your camera setting to capture RAW+JPEG,
>re-format your cards and shoot a few photos. Then compare the
>RAW versus the same JPEG in your LR software. You'll see the
>differences.


I can try your suggestion. What will I see? The differences that I'm showing folks here?
The differences I have always seen are contrast and vividness,
but never significant exposure changes like this in 10 years of digital nikon use.


Steve Z
www.stevezavodny.com

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Thu 05-May-11 03:33 PM
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#2. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Chicago, US
          

You applied "Picture Control" "Neutral" and I find this brightens the viewed image. If this is set in the camera, the value is part of the "MakerNote" section of the Exif data. It is known that View NX2 processes this "MakerNote" setting, but LightRoom 3 ignores this setting. LightRoom 3, like mos non-Nikon programs, only processes the WB, White Balance, setting from the "MakerNote" data and ignores all other settings.

It looks like you have also brightened your camera's preview.

George
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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Thu 05-May-11 04:15 PM
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#3. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 2


Englewood, US
          

>You applied "Picture Control" "Neutral"
>and I find this brightens the viewed image. If this is set in
>the camera, the value is part of the "MakerNote"
>section of the Exif data. It is known that View NX2 processes
>this "MakerNote" setting, but LightRoom 3 ignores
>this setting. LightRoom 3, like mos non-Nikon programs, only
>processes the WB, White Balance, setting from the
>"MakerNote" data and ignores all other settings.
>
>It looks like you have also brightened your camera's preview.
>
>

Yes I shot in picture control neutral.
If this brightens the image appearance, then the actual
image is darker yet. Even so, VNX shows dark. But there are
shadow values. In LR, left histo is actually clipped.
Seems the rawest most universal essential data of all,
the genuine capture range, would be available to LR3, apart from the proprietary
processing variables?

Yes I brightened the view finder picture to look like the
viewfinder looked because it was an actual photo,
not screen catch.



Steve Z
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kuzzy Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Dec 2005Thu 05-May-11 05:53 PM
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#5. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 3


Milford, US
          

Steve, just out of curiosity what brightness level do you have the camera monitor set at? This may have something to do with your monitor appearing so bright, I believe that Thom H recommends 0 or -1.

The image in ViewNX and LightRoom seem to reflect the histogram about the way I would expect. I know that neither the monitor representation nor the histogram are perfect but between the 2 I have not had much trouble judging exposure in most instances, certainly within a third to half a stop, something that is very manageable in PP.

Maybe I have just accepted that there are always differences seen from one monitor to the next (even if calibrated) and from one piece of software to the next. I know that when I first started shooting digital I became extremely frustrated with this. I guess I am not sure of what exactly you are looking for.

Exactly why the lightroom histogram is clipped on the left I am not sure but my guess is that it has something to do with the picture control setting which IS being applied in viewNX and not in Lightroom.

Marc
There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer.-Ansel Adams

http://500px.com/WhatISaw
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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Thu 05-May-11 06:26 PM
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#6. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 3


Chicago, US
          

For that shot I would have applied Exposure Compensation to get the histogram to show more ETR.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Fri 06-May-11 04:40 PM
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#13. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 3


Chicago, US
          

What metering mode are you using?

Each of the metering modes can result in a different set of exposure values. See page 105 or your user manual. Also you if you think your camera is always getting the exposure wrong, then you can fine tune it, see page 213 of your manual.

The exposure meter is a starting place for determining exposure. You may need to adjust the exposure because of lost highlights (page 166) or you may need to adjust the exposure based on the histogram (page 167).

For more information on the Histogram see Understanding Your Digital Camera\'s Histogram by Digital Darrel. Yes the camera is D2X, but the principals of exposure have not changed. Other articles:

Understanding Histograms Luminous Landscape
Digital Photography - Histograms by Herb Segar
How to Use Histograms and How to Use Color Histograms by Ken Rockwell

George
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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Fri 06-May-11 08:35 PM
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#15. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 13
Fri 06-May-11 09:08 PM by briantilley

Englewood, US
          


When I am doing those kind of shots, I dont much meter. I get a good image on screen with no blinking highlights, then bracket for HDR in case I have trouble with the range.
Its nearly the same with everything else, base off the histo and blinking highlights, whatever meter choice I happen to use. I've rarely missed enough to wonder if I meter badly. It's been an issue just with some interiors on assignment, latley.


Steve Z
www.stevezavodny.com

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Fri 06-May-11 09:03 PM
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#16. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 15


Chicago, US
          

Then your dynamic range is far greater than the camera can record. You will then have to go to bracketing and HDR processing, add additional illumination, think Speedlights, to the darker sections of the image or deciding what sections of the image you are going to sacrifice.

George
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aolander Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Sep 2006Thu 05-May-11 08:29 PM
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#7. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 0


Nevis, US
          

The image on the camera's monitor looks OK, but the histogram right next to it does not. The image, according to the histogram, is underexposed. All the values are bunched toward and touching the left side. The camera's histogram is almost the same as the histogram in LR3 and VNX. The visual appearance of the monitor image looks OK, but all the histograms show that the image is exposed to the left. A camera's monitor image is not a good judge of exposure.

Alan

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DeanAZ Moderator Expert nature photographer Nikonian since 28th Apr 2007Thu 05-May-11 09:56 PM
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#8. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 7


Phoenix, US
          

That was my thought too. The histograms are all in agreement as well as the display on the computer. The outlier is the LCD on the camera monitor. Check to see if the display is set at the normal level for the LCD screen.

Dean
Phoenix, Arizona USA
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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Thu 05-May-11 11:07 PM
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#9. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 8


Englewood, US
          

>That was my thought too. The histograms are all in agreement
>as well as the display on the computer. The outlier is the LCD
>on the camera monitor. Check to see if the display is set at
>the normal level for the LCD screen.

yeah but where is the monitor image getting such better shadow detail?
The detail is not even there in LR, barely there in VNX.

Steve Z
www.stevezavodny.com

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kuzzy Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Dec 2005Fri 06-May-11 01:12 AM
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#10. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 9


Milford, US
          

Steve, Dean and I asked the same question, what is the brightness of the camera display set at. I ask because I tried mine at +1 and the images looked extremely bright to the point that what I thought were well exposed images looked completely overexposed. Had I not changed the setting in the middle of shooting simply to see if I could view the images better I would have probably changed my settings and ended up with underexposed images. My guess is that the monitor shadow detail is a result more from the need of an lcd brightness adjustment then anything else. You really should see if reducing your setting by 1 or 2 does not bring things more in line with each other.

Marc
There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer.-Ansel Adams

http://500px.com/WhatISaw
http://kuzzy.smugmug.com

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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Fri 06-May-11 01:56 AM
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#11. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 10


Englewood, US
          

Ugh, it's embarrassing to acknowledge, that unbeknownst to me,
it was set at PLUS THREE !!! Which I would never do !
The card has been cleared, so I cannot see the immediate effect
on that image.
I'm still wondering tho. The +3 has not
interfered with any interpretations of other images. In other words,
plenty of other shots worked out normally without severe under exposure.


Steve Z
www.stevezavodny.com

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Robman3 Registered since 12th Apr 2010Fri 06-May-11 04:09 AM
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#12. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 11


West of Santa Monica, US
          

Steve,

If it's the same type of composition, dark floor, dark vertical on the left and dark, mid ground, perhaps it just skewed because of color balances?

perhaps not, regardless I hope you got to the bottom of it all.

Good luck,

Rob

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kuzzy Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Dec 2005Fri 06-May-11 07:27 PM
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#14. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 11


Milford, US
          

No need to be embarrassed, with so many settings available I think we have all set something or tried something and mistakenly not reset it. I can confess to doing that enough that it helped push me towards shooting only RAW as opposed to mostly jpegs and raw occasionally. Hopefully that will take care of most of the problem. I am sure you will find out soon enough.

I cannot remember the details of how it effected my images but if I remember right it had a much greater effect on mids and shadows then on the bright parts of the image which is part of the reason it came to mind. I hope that is the case. Let us know what you find out.

Marc
There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer.-Ansel Adams

http://500px.com/WhatISaw
http://kuzzy.smugmug.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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DeanAZ Moderator Expert nature photographer Nikonian since 28th Apr 2007Sat 07-May-11 02:46 PM
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#17. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2"
In response to Reply # 11


Phoenix, US
          

Steve, I'm glad you got it figured out. If the camera had increased the exposure any more, the highlights in the light fixtures would have been completely blown out. I would imagine that if you had recomposed this scene to exclude the very bright part at the top you would not have felt that the camera underexposed as you said was the case with may of the ther photos that 'matched' the apparent brightness.

Dean
Phoenix, Arizona USA
Nikonians Team Member
Website: The Splendid Silence of Light

Recent Trips: Grand Canyon 2012 Glen Canyon 2012 West Clear Creek

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Mon 03-Oct-11 10:39 PM
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#20. "RE: Raw way dark, see here Part 2 UPDATE"
In response to Reply # 17


Englewood, US
          

When images do this without being MINUS 3 on the exposure dial, i've learned this:
I've left d-lighting on since LR and ACR cant read nikon effects, thinking maybe someday
I can take advantage of the feature. Big Mistake !
See below.

D-lighting boosted something in the camera monitor preview (and the image?), which is nikon proprietary.
The preview that LR gets does not show this effect.

Now, what are the REAL pixel values? As seen by ViewNX, or as seen by LR?

Steve Z
www.stevezavodny.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.





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