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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 02:08 AM
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"Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
Tue 08-Mar-11 01:37 PM by JohnE Nikon

New HArtford, US
          

I wanted to start this post as there has been some controversy regarding focus fine tuning.

I focus fine tuned 3 of my 8 lenses. 2 "needed" <4 units of fine tuning. While 1, my 35-70 2.8 AF lens needed -18. The others did not need any.

I used charts downloaded online and shot on a tripod with remote at 45 degree angle.

Below are 2 shots of my daughter 1 with fine tuning on and one with it off. This lens has no focusing motor so the cameras motor focuses it. All other lenses are AFS with a lens motor. I'm not sure if this matters.

All shots on tripod with exposure delay on. There is an approx 50% crop. Center focus was placed on her right eye.

I did not sharpen images and left default +3. Also lens is sharper at f 8.




File Info 1
File: DSC_3278.NEF
Date Created: 3/7/2011 8:17:33 PM
Date Modified: 3/7/2011 9:39:06 PM
File Size: 17.2 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/7/2011 20:19:52.40
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: 35-70mm F/2.8D
Focal Length: 35mm
Focus Mode: AF-S
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR:
AF Fine Tune: ON(-18)
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/320s
Exposure Mode: Manual
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device: Built-in Flash
Flash Sync Mode: Front Curtain
Flash Mode: i-TTL-BL, -0.7EV
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0






Date Modified: 3/7/2011 9:52:13 PM
File Size: 20.3 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/7/2011 20:20:14.10
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: 35-70mm F/2.8D
Focal Length: 35mm
Focus Mode: AF-S
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR:
AF Fine Tune: OFF
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/320s
Exposure Mode: Manual
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device: Built-in Flash
Flash Sync Mode: Front Curtain
Flash Mode: i-TTL-BL, -0.7EV
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0


JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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     Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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          Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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          Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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          Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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               Reply message RE: there has been some controversy
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               Reply message Repeat test with flat focus test.
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               Reply message RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune
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yelcab Registered since 30th Nov 2006Tue 08-Mar-11 02:55 PM
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#1. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 0


San carlos, US
          

Where do I get the on line charts???

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 03:36 PM
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#3. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 1


New HArtford, US
          

Just google focus test charts and photography and you will have a few to choose from.

JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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igordb Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Dec 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 03:29 PM
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#2. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 0


CA
          

Have you tried to shoot in normal mode and live view mode? Do you see difference?
Igor

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 03:37 PM
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#4. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 2


New HArtford, US
          

>Have you tried to shoot in normal mode and live view mode? Do
>you see difference?
>Igor

I have with my other lenses which needed minimal tuning. Liveveiw worked better but I found it hard to completely control focus point. I have not tried with this lens.

JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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igordb Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Dec 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 03:40 PM
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#5. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 4


CA
          

By "worked better" you mean the pictures were sharper? If yes, I suspect you need fine tuning for those lenses.
Igor

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 04:27 PM
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#6. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 5


New HArtford, US
          

>By "worked better" you mean the pictures were
>sharper? If yes, I suspect you need fine tuning for those
>lenses.

The lenses that did need fine tuning were sharper with Live View and I did fine tune these.

JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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igordb Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Dec 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 05:22 PM
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#7. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 6


CA
          

Actually, I may be retract what I said. My point is, if the lens is sharp with live view, that indicates that lens itself is ok (assuming on other bodies this lens works fins also). Probably your AF system is little bit off. I guess Nikon can calibrate it. My guess that live view and normal mode should provide the same sharp images.
When I bought by first D7000 all my three lenses where off by -15 AF fine tuning. On my old D80 I had no such problems. Then I exchange D7000 and new body is sharp with all my three lenses, as I expected to be.

Igor

  

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Tue 08-Mar-11 05:29 PM
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#8. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 0


Toronto, CA
          

John,

The shot with AF fine tune is sharper. It is strange, one would think if it was the body that was front or back focusing that it would do so consistently. Anyway, you are getting good shots and that ultiamtely is all that matters.

One suggestion going around the internet on the d7000 is that the optimal AF settings are to use AF-C, 9 point and decouple the AF from the shutter and use the AF-L/AF-E button as the AF button. Further, it is key that you set A3 to OFF in the settings menu.

A few people who have been fine tuning their lenses claim using this AF system actually delivered sharp photos without fine tuning.

Any chance you could try this and report back the result. It sounds like it shouldn't make a difference, but I have read it a few times now suggesting either there is something to it, or the malarky is proliferating.

Jason

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 06:58 PM
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#10. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 8
Tue 08-Mar-11 07:16 PM by JohnE Nikon

New HArtford, US
          

Jason,
My U1 is set up like this except A3 is set to short, instead of off.
I will see if either of my daughters will put up with being my model as I experiment with your settings. I barely got my youngest to look up from her nightly reading to catch her eyes for this test. Maybe I'll bribe them with desert tonight.

Last night for kicks I also set my fine tuning to -18 for my 70-200 2.8 which I had previously judged to need no fine tuning. With zero fine tuning I was tack sharp and with -18 I was also pretty sharp. I could not explain this. I also noticed that when subject is closer than 8 feet or so it seems like my -18 fine tuning on the 35-70 is too much.

The thing I like about using focus charts is that you can take your time and change variables in a somewhat controlled way even if a 45 degree angle chart is not perfect. You need a very cooperative still model to put up with you changing lenses , focal distance, forgetting to turn off VR, and needing to repeat etc etc.

I did shoot multiple images yesterday which I did not include. Many of which were during low light tennis practice. I would take 3 or 4 shots with -18 fine tuning and then turn it off. This seemed to prove that I needed the - 18. One shot was better with no fine tuning but with motion and low light and slower focusing, given no lens motor , I'm not sure this is relevant.
I also shot with my 70-200 and found consistent better results with no fine tuning as opposed to -18. All the tests last night were using my U1 set up but I did not have a3 off, only short.

I feel that with my fine tuning things are sharp as long as I keep the camera from shaking. If somehow I become convinced I need camera calibration it will have to wait as I am going to a conference next week in Arizona at Camelback and will not be able to part with the D7000 for at least 2 weeks.
A little off topic but if anyone know of any great landscape/ citiscape sites near Scottsdale or Phoenix please let me know.

JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Tue 08-Mar-11 07:35 PM
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#11. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 10


Paignton, GB
          

>Last night for kicks I also set my fine tuning to -18 for my
>70-200 2.8 which I had previously judged to need no fine
>tuning. With zero fine tuning I was tack sharp and with -18 I
>was also pretty sharp. I could not explain this.

To me, it suggests that your testing set-up is not sufficiently robust

A reliable test rig, target and procedure that is capable of accurate, repeatable results is critical for successful use of the AF Fine Tune feature. An angled (e.g. 45-degree) target does not usually satisfy these criteria.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 09:02 PM
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#12. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 11
Thu 10-Mar-11 02:59 AM by JohnE Nikon

New HArtford, US
          

>>Last night for kicks I also set my fine tuning to -18 for
>my
>>70-200 2.8 which I had previously judged to need no fine
>>tuning. With zero fine tuning I was tack sharp and with
>-18 I
>>was also pretty sharp. I could not explain this.
>
>To me, it suggests that your testing set-up is not
>sufficiently robust
>
>A reliable test rig, target and procedure that is capable of
>accurate, repeatable results is critical for successful use of
>the AF Fine Tune feature. An angled (e.g. 45-degree) target
>does not usually satisfy these criteria.

My "rig" last night was my daughter reading. I did not repeat an angled autofocus test. I think testing a model can be difficult as any motion between focus capture and shutter release will make results difficult to determine.


I focused first on right eye with AFC and then recomposed.
These are nearly 50% cropped.







File Info 1
File: DSC_3291.NEF
Date Created: 3/8/2011 4:41:28 PM
Date Modified: 3/8/2011 4:39:40 PM
File Size: 16.5 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/8/2011 16:39:41.00
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: 35-70mm F/2.8D
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-C
AF-Area Mode: Dynamic, 9 points
VR:
AF Fine Tune: ON(-18)
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/200s
Exposure Mode: Manual
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device:
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF









File Info 1
File: DSC_3292.NEF
Date Created: 3/8/2011 4:41:29 PM
Date Modified: 3/8/2011 4:40:06 PM
File Size: 16.6 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/8/2011 16:40:05.60
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: 35-70mm F/2.8D
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-C
AF-Area Mode: Dynamic, 9 points
VR:
AF Fine Tune: OFF
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/200s
Exposure Mode: Manual
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device:
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0
Filter Effects:
Toning:
GPS
Latitude:
Longitude:
Altitude:
Altitude Reference:
Heading:
UTC:
Map Datum:




JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Tue 08-Mar-11 05:39 PM
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#9. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 0


Colorado Springs, US
          

I wouldn't use a 45 degree test target, but that doesn't mean that some lenses won't benefit from fine tuning or that you haven't dialed in your lens accurately. I've seen the feature benefit certain lenses, and Nikon repair technicians have been doing it through alternate means for years, so it's certainly valid. The key thing is checking it in a variety of circumstances and realizing that while some zooms can work with a fairly constant fine tuning parameter, others won't. If you're getting reasonably good results without it, it's probably best left alone, but if you're not and you're outside the warranty period for a lens, it's a good thing to try (carefully).

Rick Walker

My photos:
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visionguru Registered since 03rd Nov 2008Tue 08-Mar-11 09:04 PM
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#13. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 0
Tue 08-Mar-11 09:08 PM by visionguru

Chicago, US
          

>I wanted to start this post as there has been some
>controversy regarding focus fine tuning.
>

Why is there a controversy? Many people never needed it, which lead them to believe that it's a never needed, good for nothing feature.
For those who have to use this feature, it's a life saver.

In fact, I never needed to AF fine tune ANY of my Nikon lenses, all satisfactory so far. It's the 3rd party lenses, quite oppositely, few didn't need AF fine tune.

Good job with the 35-70. As for the 70-200, did you focus to infinity before each test shots? If the camera determines that the focus is within certain limit, it won't refocus between shots.

BTW, the 1st pic of your daughter is noticeably sharper than the 2nd one.

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Tue 08-Mar-11 10:18 PM
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#14. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 13


New HArtford, US
          

I did not first focus at infinity. Thanks.
I did a similar test with my 70-200 hand held tonight.
Again I think the difference is less striking .
I'll let you judge.
I think this proves there is not a global focusing problem with the camera.

Cropped > 50%
I forgot to sharpen in lightroom and there is NR in lightroom slightly softening both images.


File Info 1
File: DSC_3301.NEF
Date Created: 3/8/2011 6:05:16 PM
Date Modified: 3/8/2011 6:06:58 PM
File Size: 18.0 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/8/2011 18:06:57.80
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: VR 70-200mm F/2.8G
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-C
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR: ON
AF Fine Tune: ON(0)
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/200s
Exposure Mode: Manual
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 400
Flash
Device: Built-in Flash
Flash Sync Mode: Front Curtain
Flash Mode: i-TTL-BL, -0.7EV
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0
Filter Effects:
Toning:
GPS
Latitude:
Longitude:
Altitude:
Altitude Reference:
Heading:
UTC:
Map Datum:





File Info 1
File: DSC_3302.NEF
Date Created: 3/8/2011 6:05:17 PM
Date Modified: 3/8/2011 6:07:24 PM
File Size: 17.8 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/8/2011 18:07:23.80
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: VR 70-200mm F/2.8G
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-C
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR: ON
AF Fine Tune: ON(-18)
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/200s
Exposure Mode: Manual
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 400
Flash
Device: Built-in Flash
Flash Sync Mode: Front Curtain
Flash Mode: i-TTL-BL, -0.7EV
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0
Filter Effects:
Toning:
GPS
Latitude:
Longitude:
Altitude:
Altitude Reference:
Heading:
UTC:
Map Datum:

JohnE Nikon
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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Wed 09-Mar-11 12:55 AM
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#15. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 14


Kingston, CA
          

Hello,

At at that focal length, aperture, focus distance, and sensor size I calculate depth of field to be just over 3/4 inches in front and in behind the focal plane. I think there is significant probability that a live subject may move in between shots, thereby invalidating focus observations.

Peter

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 02:22 PM
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#19. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 15


New HArtford, US
          

>Hello,
>
>At at that focal length, aperture, focus distance, and sensor
>size I calculate depth of field to be just over 3/4 inches in
>front and in behind the focal plane. I think there is
>significant probability that a live subject may move in
>between shots, thereby invalidating focus observations.
>
>Peter


Peter,
I think "invalidating" is too strong. I have repeated this with >100 pictures, some in poor conditions with motion and some where my subject is asked to stay still and camera is on tripod. > 80% show a clear sharpness preference for -18 fine tuning. I think that this movement does account for a few of my inconsistencies. With > 100 pictures of real subjects I had 2 where zero AF fine-tuning was as sharp as my -18 fine tuning. I have decided that short depth of field and subject or photographers ( I use the term loosely) motion explain these inconsistencies.

Many feel the 45 degree focus test which I used is not valid, however it enabled me to fine tune from the soft image to the sharp image I displayed. I also can't understand how a focus line which measures about 1mm in thickness being placed on a 45 degree angle confuses autofocus, but this is another subject. I decided to use real models to convince myself that my fine tuning was accurate. I will keep an open mind, but for me either my camera needs global adjusting and I can't see this with my other lenses or my fine tuning has been successful.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Thu 10-Mar-11 11:59 AM
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#42. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 19


Kingston, CA
          


>Peter,
>I think "invalidating" is too strong. I have
>repeated this with >100 pictures,

Agreed, repeating the experiment many times over can help control for subject movement.

Peter

  

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visionguru Registered since 03rd Nov 2008Wed 09-Mar-11 01:03 AM
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#16. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 14


Chicago, US
          

The DOF should be approximately 0.7 feet. That only means at -18, somehow the eyes are still barely within DOF. If you look at the details on her lips, the -18 picture looks blurry in comparison, same with her right ear. The hair on the front seems still within DOF.

Based on this picture, -18 is about the most you can pull before getting blurry pictures.

Also, I noticed you used AF-C, instead of AF-S. My impression is that AF-S is better for focus testing.

Best regards,

Jay
- Chicago Nikonian

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Wed 09-Mar-11 01:07 AM
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#17. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 16


Alberta, CA
          

>
>Also, I noticed you used AF-C, instead of AF-S. My impression
>is that AF-S is better for focus testing.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jay
>- Chicago Nikonian

I believe I too always use AF-C for focus tuning. Just so happens that is what I always use on camera I guess, which maybe isn't a bad thing, especially if patient daughter did move

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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mcpianoca Registered since 05th Jan 2011Wed 09-Mar-11 12:34 PM
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#18. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 17


Sherbrooke, CA
          

To me, file #3302 shows the focus to be on the tip of her nose. The eyes are slightly out of focus from my point of view.
Maybe -18 is a little too much.
I have quite a few focus issues myself with the d7000. Sometimes it looks like camera or operator shake and sometimes it looks like focus issues. There is not too much forgiveness with this sensor. I sometimes feel I had less rejections with my D90. I'm thinking of going D700 just for this reason, but I'd hate to go back to CF cards since my iMac has the SD card reader.
I guess I'll just have to apply myself a little more when shooting.

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 02:43 PM
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#21. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 18


New HArtford, US
          

>To me, file #3302 shows the focus to be on the tip of her
>nose. The eyes are slightly out of focus from my point of
>view.
>Maybe -18 is a little too much.
>I have quite a few focus issues myself with the d7000.
>Sometimes it looks like camera or operator shake and sometimes
>it looks like focus issues. There is not too much forgiveness
>with this sensor. I sometimes feel I had less rejections with
>my D90. I'm thinking of going D700 just for this reason, but
>I'd hate to go back to CF cards since my iMac has the SD card
>reader.
>I guess I'll just have to apply myself a little more when
>shooting.

#3302 should have her nose in better focus and great observation skills.
This image was with my 70-200 mm lens and was shot with -18 AF fine tuning to prove to myself that I did not have a global focusing error with the camera. I keep this lens at zero fine tuning normally and needed a way to prove camera not flawed. My rational was that
if I had a global focusing problem then -18 should be sharper then zero.

Sorry I was not clear about this.

From my tests with real models it seems that my 45 degree angled focusing test with AF fine tuning that I performed 12/2010 was successful and I do not understand all the reasons why it should not work. One thing that I did wonder about while doing tests was that normally if you want to fudge a hyperfocal distance you can focus 1/3 the way into the scene with a closed down aperture and get a fairly sharp image throughout. The focus test then should seem to back focus a little. If I noticed minimal "back focusing" I left the lens without fine tuning.

Obviously I am not a pro and just a guy trying to get a sharp image.


JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 02:30 PM
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#20. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 16


New HArtford, US
          

>The DOF should be approximately 0.7 feet. That only means at
>-18, somehow the eyes are still barely within DOF. If you look
>at the details on her lips, the -18 picture looks blurry in
>comparison, same with her right ear. The hair on the front
>seems still within DOF.
>
>Based on this picture, -18 is about the most you can pull
>before getting blurry pictures.
>
>Also, I noticed you used AF-C, instead of AF-S. My impression
>is that AF-S is better for focus testing.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Jay
>- Chicago Nikonian

My original test image was with AF-S and Jason asked me to repeat with AFC and back focus button and a3 set to off which I did and had similar results. Jason read that the above settings may reduce need for fine tuning. If so, this does not appear to help my camera and for this lens it still needs significant fine tuning.
See EXIF data on first to images.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 09-Mar-11 02:51 PM
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#22. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 20


Paignton, GB
          

>...Jason asked me to repeat with AFC and
>back focus button...

Oh no - the D7000 has a "back focus" button. That could explain a lot...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 04:06 PM
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#23. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 22


New HArtford, US
          

>>...Jason asked me to repeat with AFC and
>>back focus button...
>
>Oh no - the D7000 has a "back focus" button. That
>could explain a lot...

Isn't that what AE/AF-L stands for?
Does it have another purpose?

So many buttons, so much too choose from.
I was recently listening to a photo blog site, "Tips from the Top floor". The moderator had an episode on how too many choices can make you unhappy. That may be part of the problem.
We have so much to choose from with this camera that we are always wondering...Was that the right choice?

I finally feel like I learned something from the Jeti masters of Nikonians, when a friend recently asked me what auto focus settings to use on his D5000 and which lens. Obviously my answer was it depends.....and so on. After about 20 minutes his eyes began to gloss over.

Sorry I ramble and its off topic.


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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Wed 09-Mar-11 10:14 PM
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#39. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 20


Toronto, CA
          

>My original test image was with AF-S and Jason asked me to
>repeat with AFC and back focus button and a3 set to off which
>I did and had similar results. Jason read that the above
>settings may reduce need for fine tuning. If so, this does
>not appear to help my camera and for this lens it still needs
>significant fine tuning.
>See EXIF data on first to images.
>

John,

Which photos are those? The ones I think you are speaking of were both taken with fine tune on and set to -18. Did you forget to turn it off?

Jason

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Thu 10-Mar-11 03:04 AM
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#40. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 39


New HArtford, US
          

>>My original test image was with AF-S and Jason asked me
>to
>>repeat with AFC and back focus button and a3 set to off
>which
>>I did and had similar results. Jason read that the above
>>settings may reduce need for fine tuning. If so, this
>does
>>not appear to help my camera and for this lens it still
>needs
>>significant fine tuning.
>>See EXIF data on first to images.
>>
>
>John,
>
>Which photos are those? The ones I think you are speaking of
>were both taken with fine tune on and set to -18. Did you
>forget to turn it off?
>
>Jason,
I corrected above EXIF data.
The soft second picture of my older daughter #3292 has AF fine tuning turned off. See above images these are the second set I posted.
Sorry for confusion the original EXIF data was duplicated and is now corrected.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Thu 10-Mar-11 12:13 PM
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#43. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 40


Toronto, CA
          


>>Jason,
>I corrected above EXIF data.
>The soft second picture of my older daughter #3292 has AF fine
>tuning turned off. See above images these are the second set
>I posted.
>Sorry for confusion the original EXIF data was duplicated and
>is now corrected.
>

Thanks John.

Jason

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Wed 09-Mar-11 04:27 PM
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#24. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 0


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I wanted to start this post as there has been some controversy regarding focus fine tuning.
Actually there is very little controversy about fine tune - or fine tuning.
The controversy is about whether reports of needing fine tune are true - or mainly false because the testing regime was not good.
Dealing with 45 degree targets which have been mentioned they came within Nikon's guidance for what can fool AF.
Chuck Westfall the number 1 at Canon USA is more forthright
---
Chuck Westfall “I recommend using a flat, detailed target parallel to the focal plane. After reading through the PDF linked from your message, it appears that the author has missed a major point, i.e., any individual focusing point in a digital SLR is much longer than the simple line he is using on his chart. The nature of the AF sensors used by EOS digital SLR’s as well as those from other manufacturers is that they perform most reliably when the entire length of the focusing area sees readable detail. This condition is not satisfied by a thin line on a piece of paper. It's OK to include an angled chart in a test photo. In fact, Canon Factory Service Centers always do this. But the test target is always separate from the angled chart, and parallel to the camera's focal plane”.
---
You do not have to understand the technicalities of why 45 degree targets can sometimes fool AF into focusing at the wrong distance - but it would be wise to accept when Canon are likely to be right.
Equally it would be wise to accept Nikon are likely to be right - they have warned for more than a decade using subjects like 45 degree targets can fool AF into focusing at the wrong distance.
Moving on all Live View cameras come with an explanation Contrast Detect AF (Live View tripod mode) can be fooled by different types of targets to Phase Detect AF (normal AF). It follows either type of focusing can be fooled in different ways - and Contrast Detect and Phase Detect sometimes focus at different distances.
On your screwdriver "needing 1 18" a screwriver AF lens plays no part in where the AF system focuses. The AF system detects best contrast - which is when the lens is sharp. You cannot get sharper than sharp. If you introduce - 18 you get unsharpness
In theory your body could be defective - but if it was it would need significant minus with all lenses.
OK - you have got results indicating lots of fine tune variation - the question is would your fine tune results all be nil if your switched from unsatisfactory testing to a good AF target?

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 05:22 PM
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#25. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 24


New HArtford, US
          

>>I wanted to start this post as there has been some
>controversy regarding focus fine tuning.
>Actually there is very little controversy about fine tune - or
>fine tuning.
>The controversy is about whether reports of needing fine tune
>are true - or mainly false because the testing regime was not
>good.
>Dealing with 45 degree targets which have been mentioned they
>came within Nikon's guidance for what can fool AF.
>Chuck Westfall the number 1 at Canon USA is more forthright
>---
>Chuck Westfall “I recommend using a flat, detailed target
>parallel to the focal plane. After reading through the PDF
>linked from your message, it appears that the author has
>missed a major point, i.e., any individual focusing point in a
>digital SLR is much longer than the simple line he is using on
>his chart. The nature of the AF sensors used by EOS digital
>SLR’s as well as those from other manufacturers is that they
>perform most reliably when the entire length of the focusing
>area sees readable detail. This condition is not satisfied by
>a thin line on a piece of paper. It's OK to include an angled
>chart in a test photo. In fact, Canon Factory Service Centers
>always do this. But the test target is always separate from
>the angled chart, and parallel to the camera's focal plane”.
>---
>You do not have to understand the technicalities of why 45
>degree targets can sometimes fool AF into focusing at the
>wrong distance - but it would be wise to accept when Canon are
>likely to be right.
>Equally it would be wise to accept Nikon are likely to be
>right - they have warned for more than a decade using subjects
>like 45 degree targets can fool AF into focusing at the wrong
>distance.
>Moving on all Live View cameras come with an explanation
>Contrast Detect AF (Live View tripod mode) can be fooled by
>different types of targets to Phase Detect AF (normal AF). It
>follows either type of focusing can be fooled in different
>ways - and Contrast Detect and Phase Detect sometimes focus at
>different distances.
>On your screwdriver "needing 1 18" a screwriver AF
>lens plays no part in where the AF system focuses. The AF
>system detects best contrast - which is when the lens is
>sharp. You cannot get sharper than sharp. If you introduce -
>18 you get unsharpness
>In theory your body could be defective - but if it was it
>would need significant minus with all leses.
>OK - you have got results indicating lots of fine tune
>variation - the question is would your fine tune results all
>be nil if your switched from unsatisfactory testing to a good
>AF target?

Len,
This is why I decided to do the "real world" test. I understand that my focus system could be fooled by a line. You had me second guessing my results with my autofocus test I performed a few months ago. I originally used 3 different focus charts. 2 had lines and one had a bird as the focus choice. The central focus lines incidentally were wider than my central focus bracket and ran through the horizontal width of the frame. I got similar results with all charts.

I cannot explain why live view gave me sharper images than normal AF phase detect focus without fine tuning other then they use completely different ways of focusing. Also I find controlling where focus points are precisely with live view difficult. I do not use live view often and have limited experience with live view.

I do not know why my screwdriver focusing lens which my camera decides where focus should be needs -18 while my other lenses do not. I wondered about this. Perhaps the AFS lenses decides focus as opposed to camera and generally does that okay while the camera decides for AF lens.
Perhaps a better test to see if my camera needs adjusting would be to get another AF lens. If this lens needs -18 I know I have an adjustment problem.

While I cannot contradict anything you or experts from Canon or Nikon say, I do feel that I have demonstrated that my AF fine tuning worked.
The bottom line is I get sharper images with focus fine tuning on some of my lenses and not others.

If I believe all of the above theory then I must have a global problem. My AF lens needs fine tuning while most of my others need little or none.

As I now can get sharp images with all lenses, I have to ask myself is it worth it to send in my camera to a Nikon technician to retest and perhaps calibrate focus? Will I get better results? Will I spend another 3 hours with focus charts and patient models confirming that Nikon's corrections, if there were any were done properly?
Will my family think I've gone insane? and be right?

The one thing that keeps me optimistic is that it seems like Canon shooters envy Nikon for its accurate focusing abilities.

Perfection is so allusive.




JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Wed 09-Mar-11 05:56 PM
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#26. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 25


Toronto, CA
          

This may be exactly the false dilema that many photographers experience when they choose to go for AF Fine Tune rather than first working for a period of time to fine tune their own focus technique.

Trying to demonstrate focus improvements by posting the photos at the top of this post is less illustrative of focus differences than it is of the difficulty many photographer encounter when trying to get a sharp AF lock on a non-stationary subject at f/2.8. My first instinct is to criticise the photographer's technique, not the calibration of the gear.

Eliminate focus technique as an issue - a process that can take days or weeks sometimes unfortunately - then do a test. More often than not, flawed technique (a chosen focus point that can't lock on the subject, a subject which moves slightly, a supposedly locked down camera position which is in fact not, an f/stop that is too shallow for the chosen subject or focus point, failure to allow a moment for VR to settle before fully pressing the shutter - a factor that is very difficult to account for when using a wireless remote or a timer, and so on).

First eliminate issues of technique and any inherent limitations of the hardware, and only then start recalibrating.

I personally think Nikon should be firmly spanked for ever developing AF Fine Tune.

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 07:42 PM
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#30. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 26
Wed 09-Mar-11 08:42 PM by briantilley

New HArtford, US
          


I agree to work on technique before messing with fine tuning. I did this for about 3 weeks after getting camera. I still try and improve my technique and am sure its not perfect.
I do however have another camera body and multiple lenses so I have an idea that when I grab focus on someones eye and hold real still and pray to the gods that I should get a sharp picture.
It just did not happen with this lens.

As this lens has no VR, pressing shutter before VR engaged can't be responsible. Although just this statement is very helpful as I keep trying to remember to hold down shutter release for a half second prior to firing when using my VR lenses. This is harder to remember now that I use the "back focus" I mean AE/AF lock button for focus.

I think f2.8 is a good way to test focus. We are talking about fine tuning. At f 8 everything is sharp with tuning or without. This is about optimization.
If you need a course in optic physics to use this feature I agree they should drop it, but I contend that you don't.

Without the fine tuning option I would have returned my lens.

JohnE Nikon
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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 08:39 PM
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#38. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 26


New HArtford, US
          

What f stop do you recommend for focus testing?

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 09-Mar-11 06:01 PM
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#27. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 25


Paignton, GB
          

>While I cannot contradict anything you or experts from Canon
>or Nikon say, I do feel that I have demonstrated that my AF
>fine tuning worked.

I have to say that, judging purely from the images you have posted in this thread, there is no way to say conclusively whether the lenses are better or worse after the Fine Tune exercise.

>The bottom line is I get sharper images with focus fine tuning
>on some of my lenses and not others.

Well, that's the important thing

>As I now can get sharp images with all lenses, I have to ask
>myself is it worth it to send in my camera to a Nikon
>technician to retest and perhaps calibrate focus?

No, I would say not - I think it's unlikely that you have a camera problem. I also think it's unlikely that you have a lens problem, but you probably don't want to hear again that a more reliable test set up, and a lot more effort, would be required before drawing any definite conclusions...

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 07:46 PM
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#32. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 27


New HArtford, US
          



>
>I have to say that, judging purely from the images you have
>posted in this thread, there is no way to say conclusively
>whether the lenses are better or worse after the Fine Tune
>exercise.

Your entitled to your opinion. I feel that the images with fine tuning are sharper. These are only a sample of the images I took to prove it myself.
Keep in mind the 70-200 images with fine tuning were performed only to demonstrate that this lens does not need it. Maybe I included too much EXIF data but I wanted to show everyone all the data the camera would supply.


>>The bottom line is I get sharper images with focus fine
>tuning
>>on some of my lenses and not others.
>
>Well, that's the important thing
>
>>As I now can get sharp images with all lenses, I have to
>ask
>>myself is it worth it to send in my camera to a Nikon
>>technician to retest and perhaps calibrate focus?
>
>No, I would say not - I think it's unlikely that you have a
>camera problem. I also think it's unlikely that you have a
>lens problem, but you probably don't want to hear again that a
>more reliable test set up, and a lot more effort, would be
>required before drawing any definite conclusions...

Yeah your right because I felt that I have already put in some effort.
But thanks. I have my near definitive conclusion.

JohnE Nikon
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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 08:03 PM
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#35. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 27
Wed 09-Mar-11 08:43 PM by briantilley

New HArtford, US
          


Brian,
I try to keep an open mind and reread this post.
I noticed at least one significant error.
When I copied and pasted the EXIF data for my older daughter I used the same EXIF data. The soft image has no AF tuning. This is incorrect above. I think this data is still stored in the original jpeg.

I will check this when I get home.

The EXIF data for Image 3291 above was duplicated. The second soft image was with no AF tuning.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Wed 09-Mar-11 06:34 PM
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#28. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 25


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I originally used 3 different focus charts. 2 had lines and one had a bird as the focus
>choice. The central focus lines incidentally were wider than my central focus bracket and ran through the horizontal width
>of the frame.
Without seeing your targets it is difficult to comment - other than to say some seem only to try testing with targets likely to be unreliable for accurate AF rather than targets that should be good.
Lines can be good or bad. They may be "bad" if they are geometric (all the same) or are either too large or too small relative to the size of detail AF detection reads best.
A bird can be either good - or bad if it is small in the frame or all a regular dark brown tone.
>I cannot explain why live view gave me sharper images than normal AF phase detect focus without fine tuning other then
>they use completely different ways of focusing.
The implication is the subject was one more likely to fool normal Phase Detect AF rather than Contrast Detect AF.
Turning to the pictures at the start of the thread the person is leaning back (same AF challenge as a 45 degree target) with large areas of smooth dark skin (an AF challenge) and plain blue clothing (an AF challenge). Because of this you cannot reliably use these pictures to determine whether you have a front or back focus issues, or whether all your equipment is good.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 07:21 PM
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#29. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 28


New HArtford, US
          

I agree first image she is leaning back.
These are not the only 2 images I took.

I tried to take into account statistical variation an shot many many pictures proving focus fine tuning to myself. The above are just a sampling. However I am able to repeat this over and over.
Yes sometimes my subject or technique may not be 100%.
When I am shooting I am usually not using perfect technique although I try. I do get sharper results with fine tuning. Some don't like me to use a tripod as subject moves and some tell me I have camera shake so I need a tripod. I've done both. I've used AF-C and AF-S.
I even have used different lenses to prove that the camera was not at fault. I have changed my distance to the subject and compared results.

I think if anyone really looks at these images and believes me that this is reproducible they would agree with me that fine tuning is needed on this lens.

I am sure my minimal fine tuning with other lenses is being a little picky, but hey they gave me the AF fine tuning feature so if I think it is helping why not use it.

I feel like everyone is afraid of this feature. I say conquer your fear.

I was afraid to go near my sensor and after a Nikonian pointed me in the right direction I now have dust free sensors.

After I got my used 35-70 lens I nearly returned it for softness. I wanted sharp images.
Now I have them.
Maybe I could have done the test with f stop of 8, then everything would appear sharp and I would have no problem, except I would know that when I opened up my aperture to isolate the subject I would get a soft image.

This is why I bought this lens. Okay the lens is not quite as sharp opened up and focusing perfectly at f 2.8 compared to f8.0 but I knew this and expect it.

I don't have a focus testing lab and I could make a mistake occasionally. While I could look at pictures of my family all day I don't wont to bore the crowd with more photos showing the same thing.

Since there were so many questions about my focus targets with my focus tests I decided to use the human eye. If somehow the eye is not a good enough focus target I don't know what else is.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 09-Mar-11 07:43 PM
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#31. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 29


Paignton, GB
          

>I tried to take into account statistical variation an shot
>many many pictures proving focus fine tuning to myself.

If you don't have a reliable testing setup and procedure, it matters not how many shots you take - the results will still be inconclusive.

You seem to have a pretty fixed idea about all this, so I'll say no more and leave it at that.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 07:51 PM
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#33. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 31


New HArtford, US
          

>>I tried to take into account statistical variation an
>shot
>>many many pictures proving focus fine tuning to myself.
>
>If you don't have a reliable testing setup and procedure, it
>matters not how many shots you take - the results will still
>be inconclusive.
>
>You seem to have a pretty fixed idea about all this, so I'll
>say no more and leave it at that.


Thanks for your input sorry to appear obstinate.
I felt like I did a decent job and have confidence in my results.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Wed 09-Mar-11 07:58 PM
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#34. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 29


Toronto, CA
          


>This is why I bought this lens. Okay the lens is not quite as
>sharp opened up and focusing perfectly at f 2.8 compared to
>f8.0 but I knew this and expect it.
>
>I don't have a focus testing lab and I could make a mistake
>occasionally. While I could look at pictures of my family all
>day I don't wont to bore the crowd with more photos showing
>the same thing.
>
>Since there were so many questions about my focus targets with
>my focus tests I decided to use the human eye. If somehow the
>eye is not a good enough focus target I don't know what else
>is.

Don't take any of the responses the wrong way. It's about the limitation of the gear too sometimes. Just because you tried to focus on a person's eye doesn't mean you actually nailed it. There is no camera Auto AF system which is flawless or 100% accurate or anything close to that sort of performance.

The reason focus testing in the lab is not done at the largest aperture is that neither the lens nor the camera can operate at their best. So when you shoot tests at f/2.8 the optical design limitations of the f/2.8 lens at that large aperture tend to aggravate the situation rather than provide any benefit.

The human eye in a real live person tends to blink, move slightly and so on, along with the person to whom the eye belongs. So - no - the human eye is a particularly terrible test target. The point is that in every technical test, eliminating all possible variables gets you as close as possible to testing exactly what it is that concerns you. It's fundamental to the scientific method. If we don't respect that then we end up with all the possibilities that have been raised in previous posts being suggested as variables which betray your test and which may even reveal that it is the photographer who needs more time with a particular camera and lens combination in real-world shooting. We've all been there - seriously.

In at least two of your photos, the focus point you wanted (the eye) was not what the camera and lens focused on. But that 'failure' typically reveals insufficient lighting, a difficult focus target, too large an aperture, mis-focus on the part of the photographer or some combination of those things. Once again, don't take it personally - we've all been there.

IMO, technique and thorough familiarity with a particular camera and lens combination first (over weeks of regular shooting); focus testing a very long way second (and then only in rigidly controlled conditions with no extraneous variables). Testing is not simple. Accurate testing to glean verifiable results from controlled conditions is the only sensible sort of testing. Anything else introduces so many legitimate variables that you really can't judge the results with any accuracy or basis for conclusive decisions.

The other important factor which arises from the arduous task of focus target testing is that the photographer doing all the work (you in this case obviously) spends so much time examining his targets, his camera/lens combination and technique that he naturally improves his technique. That is often one of the reasons that many straw tests look much better at the end of the process - the photographer has simply gotten better at choosing and locking on his subject's eyes because he's been doing it over and over again and making subtle changes in his technique and choices.

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 08:33 PM
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#36. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 34
Wed 09-Mar-11 08:35 PM by JohnE Nikon

New HArtford, US
          

>
>Don't take any of the responses the wrong way. It's about the
>limitation of the gear too sometimes.

No. I am a member hear because I want to learn and share.


Just because you tried
>to focus on a person's eye doesn't mean you actually nailed
>it. There is no camera Auto AF system which is flawless or
>100% accurate or anything close to that sort of performance.

I agree that is why I shot >100 images.
>
>The reason focus testing in the lab is not done at the largest
>aperture is that neither the lens nor the camera can operate
>at their best. So when you shoot tests at f/2.8 the optical
>design limitations of the f/2.8 lens at that large aperture
>tend to aggravate the situation rather than provide any
>benefit.


Good point and this sounds reasonable. My reasoning which may be flawed was to keep DOF shallow to see focusing errors easier.
>
>The human eye in a real live person tends to blink, move
>slightly and so on, along with the person to whom the eye
>belongs. So - no - the human eye is a particularly terrible
>test target. The point is that in every technical test,
>eliminating all possible variables gets you as close as
>possible to testing exactly what it is that concerns you. It's
>fundamental to the scientific method. If we don't respect that
>then we end up with all the possibilities that have been
>raised in previous posts being suggested as variables which
>betray your test and which may even reveal that it is the
>photographer who needs more time with a particular camera and
>lens combination in real-world shooting. We've all been there
>- seriously.

I agree when I first did auto focus test I shot again > 100 images on a tripod of a fixed focus test taped down with VR off mirror up, remote etc. I could get consistent results perhaps I fooled my auto focus consistently. While I used 3 different focus tests as mentioned they were all at 45 degree angles. While I had consistency, my question was accuracy, especially after hearing how so many did not agree with angle focus test. It's nice to be able to show perfect focus on a test strip but another thing to show it where it counts with a real subject hence this post.
>
>In at least two of your photos, the focus point you wanted
>(the eye) was not what the camera and lens focused on. But
>that 'failure' typically reveals insufficient lighting, a
>difficult focus target, too large an aperture, mis-focus on
>the part of the photographer or some combination of those
>things. Once again, don't take it personally - we've all been
>there.

I am under the impression that your lens focuses wide open no matter what your f stop is and than only closes down for the shutter release.

There is nothing personal and I take no offense with anyone who disagrees with my findings. I am trying to share my experience and maybe learn and force myself to keep my mind open.


I have no issues otherwise with this statement and strove to minimize variable with multiple shots.
I guess when I shoot a portrait I generally focus on the eyes and then recompose and would hope most of the times this is good enough. I am open to learning more and perhaps I will try this test while flawed with more light to mitigate light as a variable.
>
>IMO, technique and thorough familiarity with a particular
>camera and lens combination first (over weeks of regular
>shooting); focus testing a very long way second (and then only
>in rigidly controlled conditions with no extraneous
>variables). Testing is not simple. Accurate testing
>to glean verifiable results from controlled conditions is the
>only sensible sort of testing. Anything else introduces so
>many legitimate variables that you really can't judge the
>results with any accuracy or basis for conclusive decisions.
>
>The other important factor which arises from the arduous task
>of focus target testing is that the photographer doing all the
>work (you in this case obviously) spends so much time
>examining his targets, his camera/lens combination and
>technique that he naturally improves his technique. That is
>often one of the reasons that many straw tests look much
>better at the end of the process - the photographer has simply
>gotten better at choosing and locking on his subject's eyes
>because he's been doing it over and over again and making
>subtle changes in his technique and choices.


Very valid statement. Thank you.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Thu 10-Mar-11 09:33 AM
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#41. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 29


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I think if anyone really looks at these images and believes me that this is reproducible they would agree with me that fine
>tuning is needed on this lens.
I do not think anybody doubts the "focus at the wrong distance" results you achieved.
The question is - were you using the camera in a way where AF was likely to focus where you wanted?
From the many replies the consensus is you are not using your camera in a way that is likely to achieve accurate AF most of the time.
I do not agree any of the images you have posted show fine tune is needed.
A different test method is needed to confirm one way or the other.
The following is from a reply I have just made on another forum dealing with consistent inaccurate results with a less then ideal test target using a D7000 - it might help
***
Start with a ruler with plenty of line markings at 45 degrees with the AF viewfinder mark aimed at 6 inches. Adjust the camera to ruler focus distance (camera in landscape position) so that nil inches is at the top edge of the frame and 12 inches is at the bottom edge of the frame.
On a D7000 or D300/s in group dynamic the AF is capable of detecting small detail on the ruler smaller than a quarter in in height anywhere between 5 inches and 7 inches on the ruler
What you assume AF will do is focus at 6 inches.
What AF can do if coming from infinity is detect the first good detail it finds (which might be the 5 inch numeral) - and lock on that i.e. 5 inches
Similarly coming from minimum focus AF might lock on the first good detail it finds, which might be the 7 inch mark.
How near to 5 or 7 inches AF locks on varies with the detail on the ruler and how out of focus the image is when AF starts. This means repeatable but not accurate results depending on the testing regime.
If the ruler is parallel to the sensor AF might still lock on left or right of center but the deviation is less than +/- one.
I work with a test target I have found reliable for AF acquisition combined with a chart reading to 110 & 220 lpm outside the focus area so I can deduce focus accuracy from the lpm reading.
In single point AF on a D300/s AF can lock on between about 5.25 and 6.75 inches. On the D700 in single point the AF detection area is smaller from about 5.75 to 6.25 inches.
For FX the AF points cover 33% less of the viewfinder area and are 66% of the length of DX, with D3s single point AF being the same as the D7000, and the D700/3 being the same as the D300/s.








Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Thu 10-Mar-11 02:23 PM
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#44. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 41
Thu 10-Mar-11 02:31 PM by briantilley

New HArtford, US
          

Len,

Thanks for reply.

When I originally fine tuned I did not first focus to infinity and then focus on line / bird of test or do a near focus and repeat. I will eventually test more.

Obviously I felt convinced that my methodology worked and thought I could prove it. From many of the responses it seems like even if I am still convinced I did the testing right I am unable to prove it to everyone.

One of the main problems it seems is that others do not agree that my focus target of a line or bird was a great target. When I performed test the camera had no problem locking on to this focus. I like the idea of repeating test with first focusing to infinity - do test and then focusing near and repeat test. I could also purchase a focus test set up for about $70.

Just curious when you take a portrait how do you ensure that your focus on the eye is accurate?

JohnE Nikon
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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Wed 09-Mar-11 08:37 PM
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#37. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 24


New HArtford, US
          

I will repeat testing with a flat focusing chart eventually.

JohnE Nikon
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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 10-Mar-11 02:50 PM
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#45. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 37


St Petersburg, RU
          

I am a little confused by the use of AF-C for focus testing. It, by nature of servo window size, when detecting any deviation will move the focusing mechanism but where it stops is not the center of the window, but at the first point that meets the acquisition tolerance. In AF-S you still get the same action but only once until locked. In AF-C, it never has to lock to enable the shutter. Turning off the AF at the point that AF-S locks would reduce a major variable in your testing method, assuming a stationary target, which you did not have in the images of your daughter. What am I missing?
I don't see major problems with the images posted, which by nature, are very unreliable targets. Taking the same shot an instant later would be expected to produce different results. Want the camera or any camera to nail focus on what YOU want? That what MF or variable DOF are good for. The problem I see is that AF systems are too good so people are lulled into assumptions of how it works and anything less than wished for is thought to be defective. In all likelihood everything is within design tolerance.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Thu 10-Mar-11 04:44 PM
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#46. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 45


New HArtford, US
          

>I am a little confused by the use of AF-C for focus testing.
>It, by nature of servo window size, when detecting any
>deviation will move the focusing mechanism but where it stops
>is not the center of the window, but at the first point that
>meets the acquisition tolerance. In AF-S you still get the
>same action but only once until locked. In AF-C, it never has
>to lock to enable the shutter. Turning off the AF at the
>point that AF-S locks would reduce a major variable in your
>testing method, assuming a stationary target, which you did
>not have in the images of your daughter. What am I missing?
>I don't see major problems with the images posted, which by
>nature, are very unreliable targets. Taking the same shot an
>instant later would be expected to produce different results.
>Want the camera or any camera to nail focus on what YOU want?
>That what MF or variable DOF are good for. The problem I see
>is that AF systems are too good so people are lulled into
>assumptions of how it works and anything less than wished for
>is thought to be defective. In all likelihood everything is
>within design tolerance.
>
>Stan

Stan my first 2 images were performed with AF-S.
I was asked to repeat with AF-C. That is the second set of images.
All of my original AF test and fine tuning was performed with AF-S. I did not include any of my original test images of rulers/ focus test sheet.
It makes sense that AF-C will grab focus as soon as it is within tolerance, but I thought AF-S will do the same.
In either case I got the same results - slightly soft images with NO AF fine tune and sharp images with -18.

In my current set up for portraits I have used both AF-C with AE/AF-L button for focusing where I release focus once eye is sharp. I have also used AF-S where focus locks. I will then recompose.

Before starting to use AF-C for static portraits I polled a number of people and they felt that it did not matter which way I focused and both would be equally accurate/sharp.

Also as an aside what shutter speed do you use? 1/2x focal length? higher/lower? Do you keep VR on if you have it? Do you hand hold portraits like I do? or use tripod?
Do you have a different experience? How do you obtain focus for a portrait?

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Thu 10-Mar-11 11:45 PM
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#47. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 46


Kingston, CA
          

This is an interesting and informative thread; thanks for starting it

>In my current set up for portraits I have used both AF-C with
>AE/AF-L button for focusing where I release focus once eye is
>sharp.

I appreciate you are looking through the viewfinder and seeing one eye is sharp, but perhaps it is difficult to see in the viewfinder what is very sharp and what is a bit less so. This is a setup to my question: could it be that the camera is consistently focusing on the nose, and you have calibrated the lens such that the eye is sharp at this point? Just a thought!

Peter

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Thu 10-Mar-11 11:58 PM
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#49. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 47


New HArtford, US
          

>This is an interesting and informative thread; thanks for
>starting it
>
>>In my current set up for portraits I have used both AF-C
>with
>>AE/AF-L button for focusing where I release focus once eye
>is
>>sharp.
>
>I appreciate you are looking through the viewfinder and seeing
>one eye is sharp, but perhaps it is difficult to see in the
>viewfinder what is very sharp and what is a bit less so.
>This is a setup to my question: could it be that the camera
>is consistently focusing on the nose, and you have calibrated
>the lens such that the eye is sharp at this point? Just a
>thought!
>
>Peter

Peter when I look through viewfinder and focus on eye It appears sharp as does the nose. I do not think I am capable of doing great manual focus as I don't think I can manually focus/ see better then the camera.
So it is possible nose is sharper but I can't tell by looking through viewfinder.



In the old days I had a 35mm SLR which had a ground glass focusing central ring which cleared up when focus was achieved. This was much easier for me.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 01:22 AM
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#53. "RE: there has been some controversy"
In response to Reply # 49


Kingston, CA
          


>Peter when I look through viewfinder and focus on eye It
>appears sharp as does the nose. I do not think I am capable
>of doing great manual focus as I don't think I can manually
>focus/ see better then the camera.
>So it is possible nose is sharper but I can't tell by looking
>through viewfinder.

I didn't explain it well. What I meant: when the AF system is locked on the nose, the eyes instead of the nose are better focused because of an error you have introduced with the AF fine tuning. I suspect it doesn't apply here. Peter

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Thu 10-Mar-11 11:51 PM
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#48. "Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 46


New HArtford, US
          

I did a test to confirm my initial results for anyone still interested.

see

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/cameras/1ds3_af_micoadjustment.html

This test does not use an angled focus chart but rather your monitor and my sensor was completely parallel to screen.
There may be something wrong with this test as well but I got the same results as every other test.

This time I first focused to infinity before each test.

First I repeated with 35-70 and -18 AF fine tuning.
II then turned AF fine tune off focused to infinity.

I repeated test with my 70-200 which needs no adjustment. Again the fine tuning was less noticeable and this was done as a test to prove my camera is not mis focusing on everything.





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Date Modified: 3/10/2011 7:35:36 PM
File Size: 19.5 MB
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File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/10/2011 19:35:35.20
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: 35-70mm F/2.8D
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-S
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR:
AF Fine Tune: ON(-18)
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Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/25s
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Exposure Tuning:
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Date Created: 3/10/2011 7:32:47 PM
Date Modified: 3/10/2011 7:35:52 PM
File Size: 18.9 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/10/2011 19:35:52.20
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: 35-70mm F/2.8D
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-S
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR:
AF Fine Tune: OFF
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/25s
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device:
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0
Filter Effects:
Toning:
GPS
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Date Modified: 3/10/2011 7:23:34 PM
File Size: 20.3 MB
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File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/10/2011 19:23:33.60
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: VR 70-200mm F/2.8G
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-S
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR: OFF
AF Fine Tune: ON(0)
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/25s
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device:
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0
Filter Effects:
Toning:
GPS
Latitude:
Longitude:
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Heading:
UTC:
Map Datum:




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Date Created: 3/10/2011 7:20:05 PM
Date Modified: 3/10/2011 7:22:58 PM
File Size: 19.3 MB
Image Size: L (4928 x 3264)
File Info 2
Date Shot: 3/10/2011 19:22:57.80
Time Zone and Date: UTC-5, DST:ON
Image Quality: Lossless Compressed RAW (14-bit)
Artist:
Copyright: John Ellis
Image Comment: C John Ellis
Camera Info
Device: Nikon D7000
Lens: VR 70-200mm F/2.8G
Focal Length: 70mm
Focus Mode: AF-S
AF-Area Mode: Single
VR: OFF
AF Fine Tune: ON(-18)
Exposure
Aperture: F/2.8
Shutter Speed: 1/25s
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority
Exposure Comp.: 0EV
Exposure Tuning:
Metering: Matrix
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 100
Flash
Device:
Image Settings
White Balance: Auto1, 0, 0
Color Space: sRGB
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Exposure NR: OFF
Active D-Lighting: OFF
Image Authentication:
Vignette Control:
Auto Distortion Control: OFF
Picture Control
Picture Control: STANDARD
Base: STANDARD
Quick Adjust: 0
Sharpening: 3
Contrast: 0
Brightness: 0
Saturation: 0
Hue: 0
Filter Effects:
Toning:
GPS
Latitude:
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JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)
Attachment #4, (jpg file)

  

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 12:28 AM
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#50. "RE: Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 48


Toronto, CA
          

I actually don't see a difference between the files, they look nearly identical, +/- some CA issues. Focus wise I don't see the difference I saw in the photos of your daughter.

Jason

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Fri 11-Mar-11 12:30 AM
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#51. "RE: Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 50
Fri 11-Mar-11 12:30 AM by JohnE Nikon

New HArtford, US
          

I agree its subtle. If you look at the writing on the side I found a slight difference.
These are cropped near 1:1

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 11-Mar-11 12:34 AM
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#52. "RE: Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 51


Paignton, GB
          

>I agree its subtle.

I've never used it myself, but if I understand the principle of that "test chart" correctly, it is designed to give you a very clear visual indication of whether focus is accurate - it should not be a subtle difference. I'm still not sure what (if anything) is being proved

I presume you used a solid tripod or other support...?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Fri 11-Mar-11 04:11 AM
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#55. "RE: Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 52


New HArtford, US
          

>>I agree its subtle.
>
>I've never used it myself, but if I understand the principle
>of that "test chart" correctly, it is designed to
>give you a very clear visual indication of whether focus is
>accurate - it should not be a subtle difference. I'm still
>not sure what (if anything) is being proved
>
>I presume you used a solid tripod or other support...?

This was shot on a tripod w exposure delay.

I do find it subtle. I think the change in focus from -18 to zero is probably not much. I thought the moire pattern was difficult to confirm my initial impressions but the adjacent text seemed convincing. Anyway I tried again.

JohnE Nikon
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"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Fri 11-Mar-11 05:18 AM
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#56. "RE: Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 55


Toronto, CA
          

All you've done is capture images of a monitor as various points in the screen refresh rate. A monitor is a particularly poor focus target because the screen refreshes and a particular frequency. So when the camera shutter is tripped, you're capturing an image of the screen at any one of a number of instances in the refresh cycle. Basically, that vast majority of tests cannot be sharp irrespective of how the AF Fine Tune is adjusted.

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Howard Carson, Managing Editor
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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Fri 11-Mar-11 03:15 AM
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#54. "RE: Repeat test with flat focus test."
In response to Reply # 48


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I did a test to confirm my initial results for anyone still interested.
Sorry - your new set up still proves nothing
The target consists of symetrical circles - and your camera instructions and Nikon's web advice confirm symetrical targets can fool AF
https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4585

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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browntdb Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Apr 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 05:39 AM
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#57. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 11-Mar-11 05:41 AM by browntdb

Corvallis, US
          

I have read this thread in its entirety. I have read many other posts on Nikonians about soft images with the D7000. I have shot sample images with my lenses on a D7000 at my local camera shop and found that properly exposed images even at 400 iso had significant noise.

I really don't know what to think about the D7000. In one respect i feel that if Nikon had designed this camera properly, this very long thread would not even be necessary. Why can't this camera work effectively with all lenses as my D90 does? It seems that there is a real inconsistency with the quality of this camera. Some folks just rave about it with no adjustments and get sharp images, others have a real problem getting there lenses to work, see excessive noise at low iso, etc.

When I read about all the gyrations that folks are having to go through just to get their lenses to work it almost seems like the end goal is to tweak a camera instead of just going out with a camera that takes consistent sharp images within the technical limits of the lenses not the camera, and enjoy photography. Why should Nikon customers have to go through this in the first place?

I was so close to pulling the trigger on this camera two weeks ago, but right now, I am going to invest in glass and keep my D90 until things settle out with this technology. When the D7000 ie fixed or an improved model comes out in a year or two, then my D90 will become my backup and a camara that really works right out of the box without all this fiddling, will be what I buy.

i really admire all of the patience that all of you are showing trying to get the D7000 to perform.

I appreaciate all that is being written about the D7000 pro and con. The D7000 that some folks have are taking some amazing photographs!

Terry

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 11-Mar-11 08:19 AM
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#58. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 57


Paignton, GB
          

>It seems that there is a real inconsistency with
>the quality of this camera.

Or, perhaps more likely, there may be some inconsistency with the owners' skills and expectations

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 11:20 AM
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#59. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 57


Kingston, CA
          

>Why should Nikon customers have to go through
>this in the first place?

Hi Terry,

I think we need to gain some perspective here. Tens of thousands (a guess) of Nikon customers are out recording wonderful images with their new D7000 while a handful are gathered around discussion forums muddling about the limits of the camera's AF subsystem while using emergent, unproven and amateur test methodologies.

Peter

  

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 12:36 PM
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#60. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 57


Toronto, CA
          

>I have read this thread in its entirety. I have read many
>other posts on Nikonians about soft images with the D7000. I
>have shot sample images with my lenses on a D7000 at my local
>camera shop and found that properly exposed images even at 400
>iso had significant noise.
>
>I really don't know what to think about the D7000. In one
>respect i feel that if Nikon had designed this camera
>properly, this very long thread would not even be necessary.
>Why can't this camera work effectively with all lenses as my
>D90 does? It seems that there is a real inconsistency with
>the quality of this camera. Some folks just rave about it
>with no adjustments and get sharp images, others have a real
>problem getting there lenses to work, see excessive noise at
>low iso, etc.
>
>When I read about all the gyrations that folks are having to
>go through just to get their lenses to work it almost seems
>like the end goal is to tweak a camera instead of just going
>out with a camera that takes consistent sharp images within
>the technical limits of the lenses not the camera, and enjoy
>photography. Why should Nikon customers have to go through
>this in the first place?
>
>I was so close to pulling the trigger on this camera two weeks
>ago, but right now, I am going to invest in glass and keep my
>D90 until things settle out with this technology. When the
>D7000 ie fixed or an improved model comes out in a year or
>two, then my D90 will become my backup and a camara that
>really works right out of the box without all this fiddling,
>will be what I buy.
>
>i really admire all of the patience that all of you are
>showing trying to get the D7000 to perform.
>
>I appreaciate all that is being written about the D7000 pro
>and con. The D7000 that some folks have are taking some
>amazing photographs!
>
>Terry
>

Terry,

As a former d40 and d90 owner (both of which were fantastic cameras in their 'time', which I state somewhat tongue in cheek) - I can state without a doubt that the d7000 is not inherently defective or harder in some way to obtain great photos. In fact, in many respects (due to high ISO performance, better AWB, a better meter and better AF system) it is much easier.

If you were noticing a lot of noise at ISO 400 than something was wrong with either the particular camera or the test shot. The d7000 is practically noise free at ISO 400. Without seeing the photo it is impossible to try and determine what went wrong.

Of course people must choose a camera that they are comfortable with, the d7000 won't be everyone's cup to tea. Perspective is important for people considering an upgrade, expect to see the usual complaints of defective camera allegations around. As stated that has to be balanced against the much larger number of people who don't have these problems.

Jason

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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Fri 11-Mar-11 01:22 PM
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#61. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 60


New HArtford, US
          

I have to say that I am impressed with my D7000.
I think it is great to have an ability to fine tune a lens to get an extra 2% of sharpness out of it. I think the difference for my 35-70 lens was more.

I am definitely amateur and there is "inconsistency with the owners' skills and expectations".
I use this forum to help me grow as a photographer and better understand my equipment.
I checked my shutter actuation's recently and I am near 8000 since I got the camera in Nov 2010.

I have performed numerous tests to ensure that the camera is functioning properly and a couple times have even posted about it. Every time I thought the camera may be not be functioning correctly it was me. (except one time when it refused to focus for a few minutes which has not recurred.. this may have been me also, maybe I touched the manual focus lever or lens was not fully engaged or something)

I now have done 4 focus tests 3 with angled focus charts and one with my monitor as it is a flat focus test. I have performed with live subjects. I have been told why my focus test are invalid

A line can fool focus
Concentric circles can fool focus
A human eye can fool focus
An angled test is invalid
I need to first focus to infinity ( I have repeated and performed this)
My f stop is too low
The lighting is too low
My subject may move between focus and shutter release.
The refresh rate on my monitor makes test invalid (I have taken >30 images of focus test w monitor all showing the same thing and shutter was open much longer then refresh rate of monitor)
etc etc


BTW the last flat focus test I performed I found to be the least "reliable" out of all the angled focus tests I originally performed.
While I contend it demonstrates the same thing I found it quite difficult to see and would not recommend using to do fine tuning. It was just another way of confirming findings.


Were my tests perfect.... no

I get consistent results IMHO that my 35-70 is sharper with the fine tuning I performed with my imperfect set up.

You may agree or disagree. You have my "proof" above. Sometimes it is subtle but for me tack sharp focus is critical and I want it.
I feel I now have it.

It works for me.
It's a controversy that I cannot deny.

JohnE Nikon
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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sat 12-Mar-11 06:54 AM
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#65. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 61


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I have been why my test are invalid
>A line can fool focus
This is in the D7000 instruction book
>Concentric circles can fool focus
This is in the D7000 instruction book
>A human eye can fool focus
A human eye and brain work different to a camera in that the eye records images at different distances and the brain stitches together the sharp bits from each image to get a sense of depth.
>An angled test is invalid
This is in the D7000 instruction book
>I need to first focus to infinity
This helps ensure better focus when testing
>My f stop is too low
Correct if you are not shooting wide open. Minimum depth of field helps identify where the camera focused.
>The lighting is too low
AF is more accurate in good light levels
>My subject may move between focus and shutter release.
If it does you can have a sharpness problem.
>The refresh rate on my monitor makes test invalid
That aside monitors generally display no more than 96 dpi - far to little detail for critical analysis of sharpness.
>BTW the last flat focus test I performed I found to be the least "reliable" out of all the angled focus tests I
>originally performed.
This implies your flat target was one which AF could not detect accurately.
>I get consistent results IMHO that my 35-70 is sharper with the fine tuning I performed with my imperfect set up.
Assuming you were not focusing closer than the minimum focus distance, or zooming after focusing, anything that needs 18 fine tune looks unsharp in the viewfinder at nil.
If your image is not unsharp in the viewfinder (or live view) at nil then your "proof" is everybody else's "you are not testing reliably".

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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chris_platt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Apr 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 01:30 PM
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#62. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 57
Fri 11-Mar-11 01:37 PM by chris_platt

Newburg, US
          

My experience is that it doesn't take any patience to get the D7000 to perform. Noise performance is fabulous for a DX sensor. There are improvements everywhere you look. I have had no issues with softness or the focus system. I haven't calibrated focus for any of my lenses and haven't seen any reason to. My only challenge with the camera is learning how to take best advantage of all the options under different shooting conditions.

This whole thread seems to be focusing on one member's lens that may indeed have a focusing issue that has been helped by calibrating it - even if the tests were imperfect or essentially trial and error. So be it. The good news is the camera has the ability to accommodate problems like that. If there is an issue, it's with the lens, not the camera. Just the volume of discussion surrounding this one lens may be giving others the impression that the D7000 is demon possessed. That's unfortunate, because it isn't.

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browntdb Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Apr 2009Fri 11-Mar-11 11:21 PM
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#63. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 62


Corvallis, US
          

I appreciate all the feedback from my previous post. I guess I do need to look at the overall picture. You are right that the few problems are accentuated here. It looks like I may need to try another D7000, but before doing so, read more on the settings so I can make sure it is setup correctly before i start testing it.

As usual, I value all your inputs.

Terry

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sat 12-Mar-11 12:12 AM
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#64. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 57


Toronto, CA
          


>I was so close to pulling the trigger on this camera two weeks
>ago, but right now, I am going to invest in glass and keep my
>D90 until things settle out with this technology. When the
>D7000 ie fixed or an improved model comes out in a year or
>two, then my D90 will become my backup and a camara that
>really works right out of the box without all this fiddling,
>will be what I buy.
>
>i really admire all of the patience that all of you are
>showing trying to get the D7000 to perform.
>
>I appreaciate all that is being written about the D7000 pro
>and con. The D7000 that some folks have are taking some
>amazing photographs!

There has never been a camera made that takes good photographs. Cameras and lenses are just cameras and lenses. Photographers take good photos, not cameras and lenses.

I think that too many photographers take a camera home and test it using ill-conceived test charts/targets/subjects, terrible lighting and all manner of other inappropriate efforts in an honest attempt to see if the camera and chosen lens are magnificent. When those particular photographers see anything they don't like - the principle of problem confirmation bias being what it is - their very first assumption (despite claims to the contrary, in my opinion) is to blame the gear. But as has been explained by a number of other Nikonians who've been 'round this particular track many times before with many Nikonians who've recently acquired a new camera, getting out of the house and shooting real subjects in order to get thoroughly familiar with how the camera handles, its sensitivities, its features and its unique qualities, is in fact the only way to make good/amazing/terrific photos. Test charts will drive you absolutely nuts.

No amount of home testing, tweaking, fiddling, analysis and second-guessing can take the place of real photography. Home testing, tweaking, fiddling and analysis doesn't help a photographer learn about the camera or how to use it to get what the photographer wants.

There is nothing wrong with the D7000 beyond the usual tiny percentage of units (in any product release from any camera maker) that show up with problems.

As Thom Hogan recently noted on his blog, and as has been stated in other D7000 threads here on Nikonians, it's always amazing to note how much better autofocus seems to work on a new camera body about three months after its release into the marketplace.

It's always the same. Nikon (or Canon, Sony, Pentax, Olympus) release a new camera body, and the very next week the forums are inundated with threads about focus problems, shutter problems and so on. Yet three or four months later, all the problems have disappeared and there are people actually starting threads about how the new camera's autofocus is the best yet, spectacular, and so on.

99% of all so-called focus problems are the result of either DUE or a simple lack of photographer familiarity with a new camera body or new lens. You cannot pick up a brand new camera body - one you've never used before - without going through at least a brief learning curve before starting to get your best shots. Any other expectation is unrealistic. Testing is not photography - it's just testing. And testing is hard to do accurately. Accurate testing requires special equipment that is exceedingly difficult to guesstimate or cobble together at home. Thinking otherwise just leads down a road of frustration, doubt and an utterly inappropriate lack of confidence in the gear.

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sat 12-Mar-11 07:14 AM
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#66. "RE: D7000 "test" - 30x20 inch equivalent"
In response to Reply # 64


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I think that too many photographers take a camera home and test it using ill-conceived test charts/targets/subjects,
First photo D7000 "test" - 30x20 inch equivalent
Second photo I think creates a "look".
Both taken in the first 100 shots of getting the D7000, in a studio I had not used before with models I had not worked with before, relying on auto focus.
I do not think fine tune could help





Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sat 12-Mar-11 12:57 PM
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#68. "RE: D7000 "test" - 30x20 inch equivalent"
In response to Reply # 66


Toronto, CA
          

>>I think that too many photographers take a camera home
>and test it using ill-conceived test charts/targets/subjects,
>First photo D7000 "test" - 30x20 inch equivalent
>Second photo I think creates a "look".
>Both taken in the first 100 shots of getting the D7000, in a
>studio I had not used before with models I had not worked with
>before, relying on auto focus.
>I do not think fine tune could help

C'mon Len! Your tests shots are completely unfair. The lighting is appropriate, focal length is appropriate, composition and framing are well-chosen, you obviously took some care to assess each subject's pose, and obviously you were shooting from a stable platform.

So you're saying that subject matter, lighting and other factors set up within the camera's optimal operating ranges should be chosen in order for testing to be done to see how truly excellent the camera can be? This is new thinking, Len - new thinking.

Wait though! I think I see BANDING!!!

Just kidding. I am also delighted with my D7000.

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Sat 12-Mar-11 10:08 AM
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#67. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 57


St Petersburg, RU
          

What you are seeing with the D7000 is similar to what occurs at the meeting point on the performance scale(resolution mainly) on one axis of the graph versus user adaptability on the other. When Canon pushed hi res into the realm of consumer cameras they got the same sorts of complaints from some. For most people who need hi res and can adjust to its demands, the D3x is without peer. But for a few well heeled hobbyists who bought them for the wrong reasons were mostly disappointed in the results. The D7000 is being promoted as a mid or consumer level camera that has pro like( in most cases better) performance. I think that invites complaints to be posted on forums, where the users are fixated on specs and features and not actual images. There are two reasons that might explain why most people have no issues with the D7000; 1, they are not pixel peeping and are not so critical, or 2, they are so critical but adjust their shooting to what they find. The complaints seem to come from a middle grey area; pixel peepers who are critical but also do not adjust to the reality of what is produced.
I posted a comment a while back that my opinion was that the diagnostic skills( the skill or talent to adjust actions to fit the observations) of a lot of new users made the D7000 too much of a camera for them requiring rethinking their approach to a capture. I was jumped on unsparingly by forum members as not being fair in my assessment. Most of those people who were so critical of my opinion claimed they were highly experienced in lower models and had not changed anything so it must be the camera. A few people caught the irony of that proof as to why it must be the camera and not them.

After reading hundreds of posts since that time, I feel stronger now that it was a reasonable assumption. A 12mpx camera is easier to get acceptable images for the majority of people than a 16, 18, or 24 mpx camera given all else the same, but "all else" is never the same.
VERY few people jumped to the D7000 for the reason of needing higher resolution, if they really needed it, they already have a D3x or MF camera, but the higher res is biting them.
7D owners fell into these same categories, those who adjusted well by using the tool to fit their needs had little complaint. Those who assumed the camera would make a difference in their images did complain. Those who did start paying more attention to the details of technique started conceding that the camera got better after a while, but for the most part never admitted that they were the biggest variable that needed adjusting. With every model, cameras seem to get better after 10,000 shots.
So based on these points, I still think the D7000 is the wrong tool for some people, it does not make them happy. We should not have to pay so much for not being happy.
When I get a new piece of equipment I often take baseline measurements, not to test its suitability to the task but to have a reference for the future if I sense a change in operation. I just don't care about pixels or specs, either the image is acceptable or it is a tool for feedback to make an acceptable image based on aesthetics , viewing distance and presentation medium. For the same reason, I never walk up close to a painting to "see it better", I step back and never want to clutter my impression by detail that was never needed to create the impression the artist intended.
All this gets back to the original question of AF accuracy. After designing servos and instruments, I know it is impractical to expect a AF system to resolve to the exact same position in every shot(or any shot) with each of a series of shots. I marvel just how good modern AF systems are and how fast they are given the number of conflicting input values the servo has to work with. It is not a defect when less controlled variables result in slightly unexpected results, in fact it is a wonder it can be so close and consistent DESPITE the poor data presented to it. All the photographer has to do it increase the quality of the data the AF has to calculate from, such as giving the AF sensor the type of low-ambiguity targets that produces better quality data. Or adjust DOF to make it easier to get an acceptable calculation result range if the quality of the target can't be optimized.
The only way the camera absolutely knows what you want is with manual focus, so that option is always there. That is why important commercial studio work is done in that mode.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Sat 12-Mar-11 01:00 PM
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#69. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 67


Toronto, CA
          


>When I get a new piece of equipment I often take baseline
>measurements, not to test its suitability to the task but to
>have a reference for the future if I sense a change in
>operation. I just don't care about pixels or specs, either the
>image is acceptable or it is a tool for feedback to make an
>acceptable image based on aesthetics, viewing distance and
>presentation medium.

IMO, this particular bit should be re-posted often.

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Sat 12-Mar-11 01:02 PM
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#70. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 67


Kingston, CA
          

>A 12mpx
>camera is easier to get acceptable images for the majority of
>people than a 16, 18, or 24 mpx camera

Agreed. It is so easy today to hit a keyboard key to view an image at 100% crop (camera pixel = screen pixel). That is highly demanding of the photographic system (light, lens, sensor, software) and becomes more so at higher pixel counts: a 100% crop of 16 MP in a DX sized sensor is a higher magnification than the same done for a 12 MP sensor image. It is like printing a 4 by 5 foot print and standing 2 feet from it!

Peter

  

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Rlstout Registered since 22nd Jan 2011Tue 15-Mar-11 04:35 AM
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#71. "RE: Fine tuning Focus for Mushy Pictures.... It works for me."
In response to Reply # 70


US
          

I spent several hours today trying to fine tune the AF for my 18-200VRII. Using a graduted chart at the 45 degree tilt, I got the best focus at -7.

Next it tried this using a flat grid taped to the wall (perpendicular.). With this method, I was hard pressed to determine if 0 or -2 gave the best focus.

I've only had this camera for a week, having used a D200 for 5 years prior.

After a lot of experimenting for a few days, I've concluded the D7k does much better with low ISO values, it likes lots of light. The sensor may be less noisy at high ISOs, but sharpness is much better at lower values.

I've noticed my Tokina 100mm macro, my Sigma 150-500, and my Nikon 70-300VR were all sharper than my 18-200VR on my D200. This is more obvious with the D7k. The softness of the 18-200 has been talked to death, but that's the compromise one makes for a zoom this rangey. I think the pixel density just makes it more apparent.

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Tue 15-Mar-11 10:13 AM
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#72. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 71


Yorkshire, GB
          

>I spent several hours today trying to fine tune the AF for my 18-200VRII. Using a graduated chart at the 45 degree tilt, I
>got the best focus at -7.
>Next it tried this using a flat grid taped to the wall (perpendicular.). With this method, I was hard pressed to
>determine if 0 or -2 gave the best focus.
Your lens does not have -7 with one type of target and nil with another
Starting with a period of long convalescence 5 years ago I have now examined 601 claims of front or back focus supported by images.
Nikon give clear guidance on how to get good results using auto focus - and in nearly every one of the 601 images Nikon's guidance was not been followed.
Fine tune has a place, particularly if a well used body is overdue for service and recalibration - Nikon recomend a service every 2 years for average use.
On the other hand fine tune is likely to make things worse if not done properly. Your -7 with the 45 degree target would make things worse if applied as the -7 is caused by a focus error inducing target - the lens at nil seems good.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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Rlstout Registered since 22nd Jan 2011Tue 15-Mar-11 03:49 PM
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#73. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 72


US
          


. Your -7 with the 45 degree target would
>make things worse if applied as the -7 is caused by a focus
>error inducing target - the lens at nil seems good.
>
>
After wasting several hours fiddling with various charts, I pretty much came to the same conclusion you present.

My background is in optics, not engineering, so I really don't understand how modern cameras achieve autofocus. I do know they do a very good job when given a simple contrasty target, and do poorly with confusing ambiguous subjects. In retrospect, I can see that a 45 degree ruler type scale would have to potential to confuse autofocus logic. I experience that when trying photograph birds with branches behind and in front of them. Even with a single focal point, sometimes you get the bird, sometimes the brush.

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Tue 15-Mar-11 05:43 PM
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#74. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 73
Tue 15-Mar-11 05:43 PM by JPJ

Toronto, CA
          

>Even with a single focal point, sometimes you
>get the bird, sometimes the brush.

This, I believe, is the photographers equivalent of sometimes you get the bull, sometimes you get the horns.

Jason

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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Sat 19-Mar-11 04:35 AM
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#75. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 74


Englewood, US
          

We were taking a far away trip for fun. I impulsively got a D7000 7 days prior. With 2 days to go time, I panicked when my images seemed a little less sharp than D300 in every dual comparison, cuz I wanted RESOLUTION. I spent a lot of those last hours fine tuning AF on real world targets and it worked and it made a difference. 70-200 2.8 & 24-70 2.8


Steve Z
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mholka Registered since 04th Jan 2011Sun 20-Mar-11 01:04 AM
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#76. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 75


Brownstown Twp, US
          

The manual says not to do this on your own. How difficult is it to do and how easy is it to mess up?

I want to do this with my Bigma (Sigma 150-500mm) for sure but afraid to mess things up.

Shoot, shoot and shoot some more!

--Martin
www.ExclusivePhotoWorks.com
Nikon Body's
D800e, D300s, D7000, D90, D80, F100

Lenses:
18 - 200 F3.5-5.6 VRII, 70-200 F2.8 VR II,
18 - 105 F3.5-5.6 VR, 18 - 135 F3.5-5.6,
35 - 70 F2.8, 50 F1.4, 70 - 300 F4-4.5,
Sigma 150-500 F5-6.3

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steveZ Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Apr 2007Sun 20-Mar-11 04:55 AM
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#78. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 76
Sun 20-Mar-11 04:58 AM by steveZ

Englewood, US
          

"The manual says not to do this on your own"

Whoops, I never read those warnings, and I never suffered a negative consequence.
But I tested a lot: many focal lengths of zoom, many distances, to be sure.
I presume you can just turn AF fine tune off if you "mess things up". Also
you can delete your settings for that lens if you "mess things up". It's not
difficult, it's just tedious. Just start testing and see what happens. I wonder
if a lens like that might have variable focus planes along the way? Now that
would be difficult. And of course, you would have to eliminate anything
that would surely "mess things up", like movement most obviously.

Page 246



Steve Z
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chris_platt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Apr 2009Sun 20-Mar-11 04:43 AM
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#77. "RE:This perhaps sums up the challenges of fine tune"
In response to Reply # 73


Newburg, US
          

and this is another area where I have found the D7000 to be exceptionally capable. The camera just keeps nailing focus for me in challenging situations.

Sigma 50-500

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