Go to a  "printer friendly" view of this message which allow an easy print Printer-friendly copy Go to the page which allows you to send this topic link and a message to a friend Email this topic to a friend
Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon D7100, D7000 (Public) topic #4390
View in linear mode

Subject: "Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?" Previous topic | Next topic
jaychoth Registered since 21st Dec 2010Thu 06-Jan-11 11:34 PM
86 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
"Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"


Enid, US
          

I recently stepped up to a D7000 from a D50 and I'm not really noticing any improvement in image quality one would expect when going from 6 MP to 16. Yes, the file sizes are much larger, but that's about it.

I'm currently shooting RAW 14 bit and JPEG Fine. Is there any other settings I may be missing? The biggest disappointment comes when using my Sigma 170-500 for longer distance wildlife shots.

Can the lens be the limiting factor? If so, would it be more beneficial to upgrade to the new 150-500 Sigma or use a Nikon 2.0 TC coupled with a 55-300 Nikkor?

Below are the specifics for the attached image.

f6.3
1/640 sec
ISO 800
500mm

It is unprocessed except to reduce size to allow uploading.



Jay

Jay
SwitchGrass Imaging Services

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
JosephK Silver Member
07th Jan 2011
1
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
JPJ Silver Member
07th Jan 2011
2
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
beemerman2k Silver Member
07th Jan 2011
8
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
Floridian Silver Member
07th Jan 2011
3
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
richardd300 Silver Member
07th Jan 2011
4
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
briantilley Moderator
07th Jan 2011
5
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
billD80 Silver Member
07th Jan 2011
6
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
intrepidnz
07th Jan 2011
7
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
jaychoth
08th Jan 2011
9
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
wwt67 Silver Member
08th Jan 2011
10
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
PAStime Silver Member
08th Jan 2011
11
Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
jaychoth
27th Jan 2011
12
     Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
km6xz Moderator
27th Jan 2011
13
          Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
PAStime Silver Member
27th Jan 2011
14
          Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
elec164 Silver Member
27th Jan 2011
15
          Reply message RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?
waxart
27th Jan 2011
16

JosephK Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his excellent and frequent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community in the Nikonians spirit. Nikonian since 17th Apr 2006Fri 07-Jan-11 01:28 AM
4153 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#1. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0


Seattle, WA, US
          

What settings are set in the camera for picture processing (sharpening, contrast, saturation, etc)? By default these are set low on the assumption that you will be doing your post processing on your computer.

If you are shooting raw, only Nikon's software will read and apply these settings; all other third party raw converters will ignore them and apply their own defaults.

Moving up in resolution like that will also show any lens quality issues as well as any issues with your hand-holding technique.

---------+---------+---------+---------+
Joseph K
Seattle, WA, USA

D200, 17-55mm f/2.8 DX, 70-200mm f/2.8 VR, 50mm f/1.4 D
18-70mm f/3.5-4.5 DX, 70-300mm f/4-5.6 ED, D70S

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Fri 07-Jan-11 01:44 AM
1327 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#2. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 07-Jan-11 01:49 AM by JPJ

Toronto, CA
          

Looking at the metadata I notice that you are shooting in Standard with the default sharpening level. I would crank the in camera sharpening up to about 7 if you are not going to sharpen post process (and even if you are so you can get some idea of how sharp your photo may be after processing). For RAW's if you are converting with a non-Nikon program, you will need to add sharpening post processing to really get the best out of your shots. The fine details recorded by the 16 MP's really benefit from a good dose of sharpening. Do you normally post process of just use in camera settings and convert RAWs with Nikon programs?

Additionally, looking at the histogram, you overexposed this shot a bit which has caused the black point to be a bit off. I took this photo, set the black point on the bird'e eye and added a bit of sharpening in Sharpener Pro and it looks much better imo.

Finally, I don't know much about the Sigma 170-500, but in other threads I have read that it is not optimal wide open (f/6.3) at 500mm. Stopping down to f/8 might help sharpness. Also did you use a tripod/monopod for this shot? Handholding at 500mm with a 1/640 shutter speed is pushing it if not and would also impact your sharpness.

I don't think the 55-300 would be an upgrade here. The new Bigma with OS might be. Obviously the 200-400/2.8 VR would be a huge improvement!



Jason

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
beemerman2k Silver Member Nikonian since 27th Mar 2006Fri 07-Jan-11 06:30 PM
340 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#8. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 2


Ellington, US
          

Wow, Jason, nice job of recovering that picture!

Speaks volumes about the power of optimal post processing.

Beemerman2k
2000 BMW R1100RT Motorcycle
Nikon D7100
Nikon D70s w/ SB600
Nikon N70 w/ SB28

Visit
My photo gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Floridian Silver Member Nikonian since 11th Feb 2007Fri 07-Jan-11 03:03 AM
2711 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#3. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0


Tallahassee, Florida, US
          

Unless you are making really big prints I wouldn't expect you to notice much if any difference. I have a D50 and a D300, and for most purposes you couldn't tell which camera one of my photos came from. When you are making really big prints, or when you use higher ISOs, then I'd think the differences in the cameras would be more noticeable.

I've printed as large as 20"x30" with my 6mp D50, and even at that size the prints look really good. The D7000 is a really nice camera, but when you asked "Am I Missing Something?" in your subject line, I think what you might be missing is that the D50 is a really nice camera too.

Randy

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Fri 07-Jan-11 08:23 AM
3321 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#4. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 3
Fri 07-Jan-11 08:41 AM by richardd300

Dyserth, GB
          

Hi

I have recently been discussing this very issue with other folks on this forum. It may help if you look at "topic #4188 "This is not a specific post about a specific problem, ..." further down the topic page.

My problem like yours was long lens issues and in particular with the Nikon 80-400mm. My first D7000 was faulty with general focussing issues and was exchanged. Until very recently and even now to an extent, I am still struggling with the camera. However, although to me it is inconceivable that £1100 of camera should be so difficult to use under certain circumstances, there are those here who can help.

Looking at your images, the first could quite easily have been one of my early attempts with a long lens. I will also admit that some advice I received was not well taken by me. This wasn't out of an "I know it all" attitude, but I couldn't believe that the camera appeared to be so IQ poor with long lenses. I had had a D90/300 and have a D700 and never had I experienced the problems I had and you are experiencing.

One reply you have had I agree with (now)totally and that is in camera sharpening. I have mine set at 7. One point here and I learned this from others, is that if you shoot in RAW any picture controls you set i.e. vivid, sharpening etc will be stripped out when you load it into Photoshop. In Nikon View and Capture NX2 it will be retained. In JPEG the camera settings are burned into the jpeg, so will be retained.

Equally important is matching your shutter speed to the correct aperture. Long lenses appera to work better at high shutter speeds and the D7K is not half as forgiving as my D90 was and my D700 is. Be aware that VR or OS can have a detrimental effect if left on at high shutter speeds and hand held. Where ever possible use a monopod.

Now, I here you saying "do I really have to go down this long road?" Sorry, but it appears we do. I am getting there now and it can be done. You may be thinking "why do I have to go through all this, I've never had problems before". I've been there and got the T shirt!

Finally, my spin on this whole subject is that I think that where the camera is used with shorter focal length lenses, the problems are less. At least it appers that way to me. Some users who use long lenses however, like us, are undoubtably strugging. Keep at it, read the posts of which there are many and good luck.

Richard

Visit my Nikonians gallery

Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 07-Jan-11 08:24 AM
28729 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#5. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0


Paignton, GB
          

Perhaps the main thing you seem to be missing is that the D7000 is much more "configurable" than the D50, and its default settings are more conservative. The D7000 will repay some time put in to adjusting the Picture Control (and other) settings to your own preferences

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Fri 07-Jan-11 12:20 PM
2141 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#6. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

>Perhaps the main thing you seem to be missing is that the
>D7000 is much more "configurable" than the D50, and
>its default settings are more conservative. The D7000 will
>repay some time put in to adjusting the Picture Control (and
>other) settings to your own preferences

Yes.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

intrepidnz Registered since 18th Nov 2004Fri 07-Jan-11 04:48 PM
233 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#7. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0


NZ
          

Two things come to mind when I saw this picture...

It looks as though the focus is on the branch in front of the bird rather than the bird
It looks as though contrast could be a little higher.

I think the initial impression is that the picture loooks washed out. remember that the D7000 can cover a slightly greater contrast range than other cameras in the Nikon range so pictures may look as though they lack in contrast as a result, if you can follow that. Just increase the contrast on this picture a little and it will result in a more pleasing image.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

jaychoth Registered since 21st Dec 2010Sat 08-Jan-11 12:33 AM
86 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#9. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0


Enid, US
          

Thanks for all the inputs.

I just discovered the in camera picture controls and will play with the settings to get the best results. I did consult with a professional photographer who has shot with Nikons for the better part of his career and his thinking is leaning towards the lens itself since the images created with the NIKKOR lenses seem sharper and not soft.

Jay

Jay
SwitchGrass Imaging Services

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
wwt67 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2010Sat 08-Jan-11 01:22 AM
329 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#10. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 9


Warsaw, US
          

I can't speak from experience about the sharpness of that lens.
I have struggled with exposure with the D7k. I agree with what others have suggested with picture controls. Also, when using matrix metering, try setting Active D-Lighting to low and set exposure to -.3 EV. I am finding success (or at least a useable starting point for post processing) with this setting and using Standard picture control with sharpness on 5 or 6.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Sat 08-Jan-11 03:04 AM
2669 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#11. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 0


Kingston, CA
          

>I'm not
>really noticing any improvement in image quality one would
>expect when going from 6 MP to 16.

Don't forget that when looking at an entire image on a computer monitor, most pixels are "thrown away". A 1000 pixel by 1000 pixel image (close that of the cardinal) on a computer is 1 megapixel. The other 15 megapixels of your D7000 image have been tossed away!

Now having said that, the quality of the pixels on your D7000 should be higher, leading to richer, more contrasty images that are perhaps better exposed and certainly less noisy at high ISO settings.

Cheers,
Peter

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
jaychoth Registered since 21st Dec 2010Thu 27-Jan-11 02:56 AM
86 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#12. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 11


Enid, US
          

In doing some testing, I believe older glass doesn't work as well on the new technology. I've tried a 4 yr old Sigma 170-500, a 4 yr old NIKKOR 80-400, and an age unknown Tamron 18-270 with similar soft results. When using the NIKKOR 18-105 or 55-300, all images are extremely sharp. I plan to seek out some additional older and newer glass to continue my experimentation.


Jay
SwitchGrass Imaging Services

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 27-Jan-11 05:35 AM
3295 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#13. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 12


St Petersburg, RU
          

Most lenses that are being discussed are being out resolved by the camera.
A lot of the problems some people are having is due to using habits that worked ok with lower resolution cameras, that had higher default sharpening. Going from 6 to 16.2mpx will show up any lapses in technique or lenses. The same sort of angst was reported when some from from Canon lower res to 7D but since it has been out longer those doubts have subsided. For the vast majority of people, the lower res camera will be just fine and fit their technique as well as problem solving skills. When seeing an image such as the one posted, good problem solving techniques, a skill that is probably the main difference between a casual hobbyist and working pro, is not such a common skill.
A number of D3x owners have switched back to low res cameras after finding the demands in technique refinement more hassle that they wanted. There is a trade off in any shift in technology, if hi res is not needed, it might introduce the requirement for more formal technique refinements than the benefit gained from hi-res.
Every kid dreams of having a Ferrari or other extreme performance car thinking that performance alone will be a step in the driving experience. As it turns out, those who do buy them drive a lot less than a conventional car. The mistakenly believed that performance raises all factors but instead they find out that it requires a lot more driving skill and understanding of the dynamics of moving bodies and physics to be able to adjust to the demands.
Right now probably the best balance between user technique and adaptability versus resolution is the Nikon 12mpx, particularly the D3s. Anyone can get decent shots with it. The worst balance is the D3x, where a lot of people have not been able to wring the best out of it. Those who do need the res for commercial, fashion, and other demanding professional applications find that it is the best of the best...in a studio, in controlled lighting....with superb lenses....on a...super rigid mount...etc.
In the shot supplied however, other than over exposure and the lack of contrast, the image has more detail and particularly shadow detail data in its RAW file than you have every gotten with a narrower DR, lower res D50. A computer screen has poor resolution so it is not a test of image detail. Large hi res prints are another story.
You need to get up to speed with post processing, it is the other half of photography. If you want to avoid a lot of tweaking, use Nikon software on your RAW files, at least to convert the applied camera settings to TIFF files if you prefer the workflow of Adobe software..
If the refinements needed are not worth the hassle to you, there is no photography god dictating that everyone have hi res cameras or 14 stops of DR, unless you really need hi res, the demands in places on you might not be worth the effort. One of the most demanding demand is improved diagnostic skills in adapting to something new that requires modifying old habits based on results. If you did not see the sharping, contrast and exposure problems as some minor adjustments would have resolved, maybe, just maybe the camera is not suited to you. It should not be marketed as an improved D90 or other hobbyist camera, I think that is a mistake on Nikon's part and a major cause of the complaints voiced. I would love to have it, but I also know I do not need it, my shots are primarily for web publication and not large prints or glossy mag covers.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Thu 27-Jan-11 12:16 PM
2669 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#14. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 13


Kingston, CA
          


>Most lenses that are being discussed are being out resolved
>by the camera.

Yes, that could be, but I would think this would only be visible when viewing an image at 100% on a computer display. Viewing a 16 megapixel image at 100% is a greater overall magnification and therefore placing a higher demand on the whole system (subject stability, focus, atmospherics, lens, sensor, sensor stability, post processing).

Put another way, the acceptable circle of confusion for viewing an entire image on a given monitor does not change with sensor resolution.

Cheers,
Peter

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009Thu 27-Jan-11 01:06 PM
1973 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#15. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 14


US
          

>Put another way, the acceptable circle of confusion for
>viewing an entire image on a given monitor does not change
>with sensor resolution.
>

Peter, while I agree your explanation for viewing the full capture is accurate, it is a bit murky for the way most people work in an editing program especially viewing at 100%. After all if you are only viewing your images on screen, then even a D50 is overkill.

If the D7000 sensor is out resolving the lens as opposed to the D50 which the lens matches the resolution, then the images will look similar at a similar enlargement. The D7000 images will only look better (given the scene has the detail to be capture to begin with) when the lens out resolves the D7000 sensor.

As to apparent sharpness, the CoC is determined by viewing distance and amount of enlargement of the capture medium. So for a given aperture an 8x10 print at a given viewing distance from a D50 should look the same as one from a D7000 (sans any added fine detail).

But viewing an image at 100% in an editor, the D7000 would need a smaller CoC then the D50 for them to appear similar in sharpness for it is effectively viewing a greater enlargement at the same viewing distance. And I feel this is where most people get tripped up and find the disappointment. To achieve the same enlargement you would need to view the D50 at 100% and the D7000 image at somewhat less than 100%.

Does my rambling make sense?

Pete

Pete

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
waxart Registered since 16th Jan 2008Thu 27-Jan-11 04:27 PM
67 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#16. "RE: Not Impressed - Am I Missing Something?"
In response to Reply # 13
Thu 27-Jan-11 04:33 PM by briantilley

Vallejo, US
          

> It should not be marketed as an improved D90 or other
>hobbyist camera, I think that is a mistake on Nikon's part and
>a major cause of the complaints voiced. I would love to have
>it, but I also know I do not need it, my shots are primarily
>for web publication and not large prints or glossy mag covers.

I totally agree with Stan's comments. I moved up from a D80, which I found relatively easy to use. To begin with I was so frustrated with the D7000 that I had buyer's remorse. Now, after two months of experimentation and thorough reading of the manual, I am finally coming to terms with it. Although I own several other lenses, I am most satisfied with the results from the 18-105mm. I now have 2 custom menus in place, which use very few of the defaults. I still have to alter the controls frequently for shots in different lighting conditions, but my tweaks are now working well. I was dismayed at first to have some of my D7000 stock images rejected for poor lighting and focus, but now everything is fine - providing I am constantly paying attention to the conditions around me. It's a steep learning curve, but well worth the effort. My only regret - I traded in my D80. Sometimes I'd enjoy using a more user-friendly camera for casual shots!

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon D7100, D7000 (Public) topic #4390 Previous topic | Next topic


Take the Nikonians Tour and learn more about being a Nikonian Wiki /FAQ /Help Listen to our MP3 photography radio channels Find anything on Nikon and imaging technology - fast!

Copyright © Nikonians 2000, 2014
All Rights Reserved

Nikonians®, NikoScope® and NikoniansAcademy™ are trademarks owned by Nikonians.org.
Nikon®, Nikonos® and Nikkor® are registered trademarks of Nikon Corporation.