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tulkus Registered since 18th Sep 2013Wed 18-Sep-13 05:39 PM
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"D7000 flash"


US
          

I have a problem using flash, even after reading Digital Darrell's book "Mastering the Nikon D7000." I want to use a SB-700 off-camera (wirelessly) as the sole light source. Supposedly when one uses the camera's Commander mode and sets the built-in flash to double-dash mode, the built-in flash does not fire but it will fire the off-camera Speedlite. This does not work for me. Regardless of what I do, the pop-up flash continues to fire along with the SB-700. Anyone have any helpful thoughts on this?

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: D7000 flash
RLDubbya Silver Member
18th Sep 2013
1
Reply message RE: D7000 flash
Bravozulu Silver Member
18th Sep 2013
2
Reply message RE: D7000 flash
tulkus
18th Sep 2013
3
Reply message RE: D7000 flash
tulkus
18th Sep 2013
4
     Reply message RE: D7000 flash
MEMcD Moderator
19th Sep 2013
5
          Reply message RE: D7000 flash
tulkus
19th Sep 2013
6
               Reply message RE: D7000 flash
briantilley Moderator
19th Sep 2013
7
                    Reply message RE: D7000 flash
km6xz Moderator
19th Sep 2013
8
                    Reply message RE: D7000 flash
tulkus
19th Sep 2013
10
                         Reply message RE: D7000 flash
km6xz Moderator
20th Sep 2013
12
                    Reply message RE: D7000 flash
tulkus
19th Sep 2013
9
                         Reply message RE: D7000 flash
elec164 Silver Member
19th Sep 2013
11
Reply message RE: D7000 flash
briantilley Moderator
20th Sep 2013
13

RLDubbya Silver Member Nikonian since 24th Dec 2011Wed 18-Sep-13 10:26 PM
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#1. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

The onboard flash will fire the "pre flash" sequence to communicate with the remote flash, but fires prior to exposure, and at a much reduced level.

Could this be what you are seeing?

If so, there's a couple paths: you can purchase a SG-IR31 Panel which blocks all the pre-flash light except the IR component. Price is about 15.00.

You can purchase an SU 800 controller, which mounts in the flash hotshoe, and functions as a wireless commander controller. Much more expensive.

Third option: You can also just live with the pre flash sequence - is it impacting your exposure? (it can in some cases)?

If it's not the pre-flash sequence, I'm not sure what you're doing wrong - this should work OK.

  

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Wed 18-Sep-13 11:11 PM
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#2. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 1


Los Angeles, US
          

Be advised that you need to configure the SB700 to act as a Remote Flash. You do so by rotating the power switch to the REMOTE position. You then need to press the SEL button to set power and which group the flash is in. A or B. This configuration must match the group you set on the D7000 under Custom Setting e3.

You can set the flash power on the flash or in e3 on the camera. But groups must be set in both places and must agree.

Bear in mind that the redding Infra Red panel on the flash should be able to 'see' the flash from the camera when it goes off. There are IR panels on the front, rear and one side of the flash (I think). That's why you can rotate the head in so many directions — to insure that one of those IR panels will receive the triggering light from the pop-up on the camera.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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tulkus Registered since 18th Sep 2013Wed 18-Sep-13 11:24 PM
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#3. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

I appreciate your thoughts. I notice that the camera fires both the pre-flash AND the regular pop-up flash, so the pre-flash is not the issue. I will definitely check out the other options you mentioned, but am still puzzled why the unit does not function as its supposed to. Thanks.

  

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tulkus Registered since 18th Sep 2013Wed 18-Sep-13 11:32 PM
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#4. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          

Thank you for your response. I did set the remote correctly--figured that out from the SB-700 manual (although that manual, unfortunately, is less clear and detailed than it could/should be, IMO). Also checked with the remote in different positions, so it definitely gets the signal from the camera and it does fire--the problem is that the built-in flash also unavoidably fires. Puzzling. Thanks again. (Oops, just realized this is the reply to #2, not #1. Sorry, I'm new to the site and forums.)

  

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MEMcD Moderator In depth knowledge in various areas Nikonian since 24th Dec 2007Thu 19-Sep-13 01:18 AM
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#5. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 4


US
          

Hi Gary,

Welcome to Nikonians!


>Also checked with the remote in
>different positions, so it definitely gets the signal from the
>camera and it does fire--the problem is that the built-in
>flash also unavoidably fires. Puzzling.

The system is working coorectly.
Wireless CLS uses flash pulses to communicate settings and instructions from the Commander (Built-in Speedlight in your case) to the Remote (SB-700).

In the camera menu under flash you can set the Built-in Speedlight to -- and it will fire the triggering flash at very low power that won't contribute to the exposure unless you are shooting at Macro distances.
Another option is to place a Nikon SG-3IR in the cameras hotshoe. it will convert the flashes white light to IR which will not contribute to the exposure even at macro distances.

Best Regards,
Marty

  

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tulkus Registered since 18th Sep 2013Thu 19-Sep-13 03:30 PM
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#6. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

Many thanks, Marty. It seems I have misunderstood the written explanations of the camera in thinking that the built-in flash should not fire at all in "--" mode, i.e. only the pre-flashes should fire. (I checked again in the camera manual, flash manual, and in Darrell Young's book, and nowhere is that point made, rather the opposite impression is given.) I will test out your suggestion and will look into the SG-31R as well. Thanks again.

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 19-Sep-13 04:01 PM
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#7. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 6


Paignton, GB
          

The D7000 manual refers to the fact that the built-in flash still needs to fire when set to "--" on pages 225-228.

>I will test out your suggestion and will look into the SG-31R
>as well.

If you're trying to search online for that item, be aware that (as Marty says) it is called SG-3IR, not SG-31R - that's a letter "I", not a number "1", as in "IR" for Infra-Red

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 19-Sep-13 05:07 PM
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#8. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 7


St Petersburg, RU
          

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that the preflash, response flashes and trigger flash all occur within a few milliseconds and appear to happen while the shutter is open. All of those occur an instant before the shutter opens and whether the commander is set to TTL or --, the flash looks the same.
Even in -- mode, where the built in flash does not contribute to exposure if you are are very close to the subject or set to high ISO or a fast aperture, you might see a little contribution. That is due to in some setting the decay of the flash ignition lasts at low power so some flash output is detected at the shutter opening.
Watching the flash you can't tell if the flash is adding the TTL flash during shutter opening or not since all the flash sequences appear to be one flash. Try an experiment to see the difference between commander being set to TTL and --.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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tulkus Registered since 18th Sep 2013Thu 19-Sep-13 09:47 PM
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#10. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 8


US
          

Stan, thanks for your helpful comments. Can you clarify what you mean by the terms, preflash, response flash and trigger flash? I am just beginning to explore adjunct lighting, having been a landscape shooter using only natural light for 20+ years, and am still learning the terminology.
And I did try your suggested experiment but did not see any difference. I have ordered a SG-3IR and will experiment further when it arrives in a few days. Thanks again.

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Fri 20-Sep-13 04:29 AM
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#12. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 10


St Petersburg, RU
          

CLS Wireless TTL works by having the commander on the camera:
1.Send a pulse coded burst of light to set the mode for each group of remote flashes(Off, TTL, AA, and M)
2.A pre-flash command coded pulse is sent telling each group to prepare to fire a low power flash.
3. The remote groups sequentially fire a low power flash to illuminate the subject, one group at a time.
4. The metering system calculates the value of flash power needed to properly expose the subject based on the reflected light received by the camera.
4a If the light reflected is too low to get a calculation, the camera emits a pulse of light to tell the remote to flash at higher power
5. After the flash values are calculated, the commander sends a coded pulse that tells each group what power to emit.
6. After a relatively long delay, about 60ms, the flash trigger pulse is sent by the commander for all the groups to fire at their assigned level.

Steps 1-5 are all called Pre-flash but are really a series of up to 9 different binary coded bursts from the commander or respond flashes from the remote. They happen so fast we perceive the entire sequence of 1-6 as one flash. A sensitive subject can easily respond to this by a blink reflex so if close to the subject, do a couple shots to hope to get one with eyes fully open. Shots in rapid sequence can usually precondition the eye to not be so hair triggered. But it means their iris will be closed down which may or may not change the appearance of their eyes.

My measurements of the codes and pulses were based on my building a RF wireless control I built soon after getting my D90 5 years ago. I determined the final trigger pulse occured right before the shutter opened so the remotes could receive the command and initiate the high power flash. The duration of the trigger pulse was adjusted by the camera depending on whether the commander was intended to contribute to the exposure light. If set to "--", the pulse was low power and started in advance by 2-3ms of shutter opening but there was still some light being emitted for the first part of the shutter opening. In TTL mode where the commander was going to contribute to the exposure, the flash duration was increased to be at calculated power still by the time the shutter opened but still trigger slightly in advance of the opening so the remotes could be creating light immediately after the shutter opened.

The more I dug into the system the more amazed I was by how complex it is. I left out some other coding that I deciphered, such as transmission of guide number and slow shutter speeds which changes everything. When I built my RF wireless version of the CLS, I only accounted for basic codes 1-6 so it does not expose correctly on slow rear curtain.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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tulkus Registered since 18th Sep 2013Thu 19-Sep-13 09:24 PM
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#9. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

Brian, thanks for your response. Per your reference to the D7000 camera manual, it states on page 225 that in -- mode, "The built-in flash does not fire, although remote flash units do." It goes on to address Group A flash units in -- mode: "The flash units in this group do not fire." Also, on page 227, is this: "Note that even if -- is selected for BUILT-IN FLASH>MODE, the built-in flash must be raised so that monitor pre-flashes will be emitted" which, to me, implies no firing of the primary flash. These lines are what confused me. However, on closer reading today, on page 228 I noted a reference to "timing flashes emitted by the built-in flash." Unfortunately there was no explanation of just what a timing flash is (and a quick web search did not turn up any definition.) Soooo, the manual info appears to be, at the least, unclear and, IMO, somewhat inconsistent. (Of course, user's manuals often are ambiguous or incomplete in part, which is why I got Darrell Young's book, although I have to give credit to Nikon and add that I thought the D7000 manual is actually quite good, overall.)

Per the suggestion (and the manual reference on p. 228), I did order an SG-3IR today on Amazon (along with Hagen's book on the CLS). I look forward to trying out the unit.

  

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elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009Thu 19-Sep-13 11:56 PM
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#11. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 9


US
          

> However, on closer
>reading today, on page 228 I noted a reference to "timing
>flashes emitted by the built-in flash." Unfortunately
>there was no explanation of just what a timing flash is (and a
>quick web search did not turn up any definition.) Soooo, the
>manual info appears to be, at the least, unclear and, IMO,
>somewhat inconsistent.

As already stated, when using CLS the master fires the trigger flash after the shutter opens. But at such a reduced power it attributes minimal illumination to the scene.

There is a pinned post over in the Speedlight forum that gives a good explanation of the preflash and trigger sequence you may wish to check out. Hal used an SB800 instead of a built in flash, but I don't believe that should make a difference.

Pete

Pete

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 20-Sep-13 08:23 AM
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#13. "RE: D7000 flash"
In response to Reply # 0


Paignton, GB
          

I think this topic is covered very well over in our Speedlights and Lighting Forum.

The thread linked by Pete above is a great place to start.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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