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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Wed 08-Dec-10 01:08 PM
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"Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"


Dyserth, GB
          

Hi

I contributed to numerous threads recently, my own "Houston I have a problem" and posted on "D7000... in need of advice". Yes, it's that guy with all the focus and soft image problems, but I did promise that I would work hard to perfect my method of photographing BIF with the D7K. I say that, because no matter what has been said before by others, this has without any doubt been the worst Nikon experience of my time with dSLR's. I've never had to work so hard to get presentable images and sorry, the one who even said it's as much about the photographer as the camera, you may well be correct, but I still prefer my D90 experience!

Anyway that said I have taken much of what I was advised on board. I have upped the ISO and therefore the available speed, I have used the in-camera sharpening, I have taken over 300 images and AF fine tuned the camera for all my lenses. I have also tried evrey bit of advice in one way or another. Attached are two BIF images and a static bird image.

The techy stuff is: All images in RAW. Nikon 80-200mm f4.5-5.6, VR on, hand held. Matrix metering, AF-C, 9 point dynamic area AF, 3D tracking. Picture Control = Vivid, Sharpening = +7
Post Processing: Lightroom 3 Average crop 60%, extra sharpening to 78 radius 0.9. Luminance noise reduction 80%! needed that to reduce the ISO noise. Tone, fill light, contrast. Please see the 3 images below.

Your comments will be more than welcome. It's not the results I'm used to and what a time consuming experience to achieve it.

Richard








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elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009Wed 08-Dec-10 02:23 PM
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#1. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed 08-Dec-10 02:29 PM by elec164

US
          

Question, how are you handing off the images to LR3? If you are opening the NEF’s with lightroom then many of the camera settings are meaningless in that LR3 cannot access them. I have never used LR but do use PS CR3 for NEF’s and when you open them ACR applies its own minimal capture sharpening setting unless you change it. So in that case your additional 78 sharpening setting may be insufficient. If you are using ViewNX2 or CNX2 to hand off TIFF’s then the in camera settings are applied.

The two seagull images don’t look all that bad to me, maybe a tad soft but that could be due to insufficient sharpening as noted above.

The static small bird is severely lacking in contrast (perhaps veiling flare?). Lack of contrast will make edges less defined and appear soft. A quick playing with the image in an editor to improve contrast to me vastly improved the overall look of the image and made it appear sharper.

Of course it’s always better to work with the original, but this is an example of the increased contrast.




Just my thoughts, hope they help.

Pete

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Wed 08-Dec-10 03:00 PM
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#2. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 1


Dyserth, GB
          

Pete,thanks for that.

Yes, the increased contrast had enhanced the bird sharpness.

I tend to use lightroom as a batch processor, then when finished export as jpg's images I no longer wish to manipulate and export the best as DNG. I also use CS5 and NCNX2. The sharpening I applied in lightroom was carried over to CS5 in these cases. I will take some More Raw files tomorrow and do a comparison between CS5 and Nikon Capture NX2. I also, of course, set a Vivid picture control and sharpening at +7.

Thanks.

Richard

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 08-Dec-10 03:19 PM
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#3. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 2


Paignton, GB
          

>I also, of course, set a Vivid picture control and sharpening at +7.

At Pete pointed out, only Nikon's own software takes account of those settings. Lightroom will completely ignore them.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Wed 08-Dec-10 06:15 PM
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#7. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 3


Dyserth, GB
          

Thanks.

No, I was not aware that lightroom takes no accoumt of in-camera sharpening. That said, I've never had need to use in camera sharpening before I bought the D7K! (New year resolution is "I promise to stop comparing the D7K to the D90)!That is a very useful tip. I am assuming that Photoshop CS5 does not ignore it, or at least after a 12 months course in CS it I was never made aware of that. Therefore, is it correct to assume that those who buy a Nikon camera with Picture Controls, but do not use CaptureNX, would use the on-camera sharpening for direct printing?

I really must go up a gear in NX2, as I tend, totally wrongfully, to use CS suites in the first instance. I have bought the Nik Effex Pro filters for NX and find them excellent too.

Richard

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Wed 08-Dec-10 06:20 PM
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#9. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 7


Paignton, GB
          

>I am assuming that Photoshop
>CS5 does not ignore it

Yes, I'm afraid it does.

Only Nikon software takes account of any in-camera "Picture Control" settings apart from white balance.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Wed 08-Dec-10 04:31 PM
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#4. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 2
Wed 08-Dec-10 05:33 PM by dm1dave

Lowden, US
          

Yu can also loose sharpness when you resize the image for web posting. I always use Photoshop’s Smart Sharpen after resizing for the web.

Edited to add...

Here is another quick rework of the sparrow.

I used levels to set the black point and then curves to bring up the contrast.

That left an overly dark background so I sued color control points in Capture NX to lighten the background and another control point to brighten the head and add some warmth to get rid of the slightly blue cast.


Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
Nikonians Photo Contest Director

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Wed 08-Dec-10 04:47 PM
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#5. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 4
Wed 08-Dec-10 04:49 PM by billD80

US
          

I think your first two birds shots are as good as anything else you have. I think they're excellent. LOOK AT THE BIRD'S EYE IN THE FIRST ONE! SHARP! Humans look first at eyes, so that's where you want your focus point (usually).

The third birdy looks focussed on the branch in front, not on the bird's eye. The contrast helped, but the shot could have been better.

Brian's comments are especially informative (I don't use LightRoom, I use NX2), but it's nice to know this stuff...

The fact that the D7K isn't factory set to have high sharpening, high contrast, makes sense for serious results. It gives YOU more options. It's more of a "pro" leaning than casual shooter.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Wed 08-Dec-10 05:48 PM
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#6. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 5


Lowden, US
          

“The third birdy looks focussed on the branch in front, not on the bird's eye.”

I agree, I forgot to mention this in my post above. I think it was close enough that stopping down a little would have really helped the eye.

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
Nikonians Photo Contest Director

Nikonians membership -
"My most important photographic investment, after the camera"

My Nikonians Gallery | SummersPhotoGraphic.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Wed 08-Dec-10 06:18 PM
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#8. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 4


Dyserth, GB
          

Thanks for the comments. I usually use smart sharpen as my default sharpener as it's more flexible. The control points in NX2 certainly show their value in your adjustments.

Richard

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 06:21 AM
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#13. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 8


St Petersburg, RU
          

The D90 needed additional sharpening also from default settings but not as much as the D7000. There are post processing advantages to not having high contrast, sharpening and saturation baked into the image.

Not only is Adobe guessing on the camera's intent, the current ACR version is the first attempt in a series of fine tuning Adobe will introduce as they get to understand the file format better from this camera. The newest upgrade of NX2 and the shipped CD version of ViewNX that came in the box do some things to D7000 files that shows Adobe (who at least tries to improve rendering with each version, the others don't bother fine tuning for the unique in-camera tricks that Nikon applies) still has not gotten a handle on. A rendering, with default settings according to a number of people who have compared, as well as myself using other people's files, in ViewNX has lower noise and is sharper with more detail than one done with ACR (LightRoom or PS CS5). Give Adobe another year of fine tuning and they will get very close, they did with D300 and D90 images by the time the version of ACR came out that was introduced along side LightRoom 3.
A good workflow in the meantime is to import with LR to review and mark the ones you want to print or further develop. Open those particular keepers in ViewNX, which do apply the same camera settings as you intended, and convert to 16 bit TIFF files that Adobe and almost all post processing software can deal with. It is an extra step but will be worth it on those few that you want to print or publish.
Whatever Nikon is doing with internal processing that only Nikon software responds to, it is different with the D7000 than in the past. That can be assumed because the images have both lower noise AND more detail/sharpness which are normally mutual exclusive traits.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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kwb49 Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Dec 2007Thu 09-Dec-10 02:50 AM
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#10. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 0


East Liverpool, Ohio, US
          

So Richard... from everything I read here, you are not that happy at all with the D7k. I have my replacement sitting in the bedroom still in the box. I am afraid to open it. I was not at all pleased with the first experience and have talked to the store owner. He will gladly take it back unopened and give me credit toward a D700. I am really torn about spending another $1200, but I am a sports shooter and I really don't think this hassle is going to be worth it. I hate to lose the crop factor also, but it is what it is. Like you, my D90 has been an absolute joy.... except that it now has 4 hot pixels showing up since I have moved inside to shooting basketball.

Keith

  

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mrginhop Registered since 29th Mar 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 03:44 AM
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#11. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 10


Newfields, US
          

I recommend you try taking some images in Raw NEF, adjust them first in LR3 since you have it already & see what you really get. After that you might want to do some additional processing in CS5.

Mike

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mrginhop Registered since 29th Mar 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 03:49 AM
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#12. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 11


Newfields, US
          

Forgot to add that many of the photos i recently posted in my gallery were done with the D7000. I have now shot 5-6K images with it almost all BIFs & my conclusion is that it matches my D300 re. sharpness.

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 09:15 AM
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#14. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 12


Dyserth, GB
          

Hi everyone.

This post seems to have once again evoked some interesting stuff. I have learned some things about what will (Nikon CNX2 and View NX) and will not be carried from the camera (Photoshop CS, Lightroom etc). As I took time to think about this, then it’s logical really! As I bought the D90 about 18 months after the launch, then I suppose it is possible that Adobe had caught up with the new camera technology by the time I became a user of the D90. However, all this talk of manufacturer to new camera time lag confuses me a little. At the risk of sounding repetitive, this software to camera lag did not seem happen with my transitions from D80 to D300, D300 to D700 and then my second body D90. The images produced by all brands of software was totally satisfactory. In fact with my D700, the camera was considerably newer than any Adobe latest issue at the time. I am sure that someone will tell me that the camera technology jump was not as marked as the jump to the D7000. That could possibly be true.

The question of file handling and using NEF files is answered in my original post “…The techy stuff is: All images in RAW”. In answer to the static bird image, “The third birdy looks focussed on the branch in front, not on the bird's eye.” yes I agree, as I didn’t switch to SP focus from A-AF so it probably focused on a branch etc. Anticipating any feedback, yes that was my fault as a photographer.

So, where am I now? Well apart from things I’ve learned, I’m sorry to say not that much further on really. As for the D7K, I haven’t that much faith in it I’m afraid. In any event it certainly doesn’t live up to all the pre sale hype in my view. All I want is to replicate the IQ of the images attached, which are by no means perfect, but I feel are superior to those I captured with the D7K. Incidentally, for a change to my comparison to the D90, these were taken with my D700 and 70-200mm f/2.8. In future I shall not buy again in haste and then only after reading exhaustive reviews and of course the comments on Nikonians etc. The most annoying part of all this is that I should have done that with the D7K. No fool like an old fool I hear some saying!

Richard.






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JohnE Nikon Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jun 2010Thu 09-Dec-10 11:10 AM
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#15. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 14


New HArtford, US
          

In future I shall not buy again in haste and
>then only after reading exhaustive reviews and of course the
>comments on Nikonians etc. The most annoying part of all this
>is that I should have done that with the D7K. No fool like an
>old fool I hear some saying!
>
>Richard.
>
>

Richard,
I'm not sure waiting or reading exhaustive reviews would have helped you. Most reviews to this point would not have steered me away from this camera. I read many or the reviews which are nearly all fairly positive. The posts re. focus and exposure etc. difficulties do not give you an accurate idea of how good the camera is. Every camera that comes out you will read posts regarding poor focus and lack of sharpness. The only way to truely know if the camera will be right for you is to buy it and test it. Stick with a name brand that you have come to trust and go for it. I wouldn't beat myself up anymore.

After getting my D7000 a few days ago I have taken around 500 pictures. I had wondered if some of the images were soft. I did mutlitiple focus tests on a tripod @ 45 degrees. I tested all lenses and teleconverters. There were 2 lenses that I felt may need < 5 units of AF tuning.

I compared portraits of my daughter after taking about 20 pictures with the D7000 and D5000. I found that I was getting more tack sharp images with the D5000, but I did get some with the D7000.
I am convinced that the D7000 is prone to show user errors or lens flaws then the D5000. When I look for sharpness 1:1 the D7000 is a bigger image. I am not trying to say this is your problem, but I think it is mine and feel optimistic that I will bond with this camera as I did with my D5000.

JohnE Nikon
https://plus.google.com/photos/104310967428146619677/albums?hl=en

https://picasaweb.google.com/104310967428146619677


"Cameras and lenses are simply tools to place our unique vision on film. Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul." Jack Dykinga

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 01:03 PM
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#17. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 15


Dyserth, GB
          

<<Every camera that comes out you will read posts regarding poor focus and lack of sharpness>>

Thanks for the comments John. I think you are correct about beating myself up, I just hate feeling I have not had value for money. Re: the above comment about poor focus etc. I never really bothered with reviews until I bought the D700 and can only assume that what I read was good. When I bought the D80 and D300 it was the same. Perhaps I should ignore forums and reviews, then maybe I will have found the answer to my problem!

On a more serious note I do absolutely appreciate all the help I've found here. I am getting somewhere with it and will improve. I also shall now forget my hangup about every other Nikon I've had, working straight out of the box. No soft images, no focus problems an absolute delight to own.

Thanks again.

Richard

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 09-Dec-10 11:20 AM
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#16. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 14
Thu 09-Dec-10 11:25 AM by briantilley

Paignton, GB
          


This isn't a matter of software companies being slow to respond to a new camera, or having to wait for an update, Richard.

Lightroom, Photoshop CS, Elements (etc, etc...) will never read the Picture Control settings in a NEF file. Only Nikon software will do that. What you may be finding is that the default settings that Lightroom applies suit D90 and D700 NEF's better than they suit D7000 NEF's.

Regarding support for new models, there is almost always a time delay between the camera becoming available and support being added to Lightroom and Photoshop. This wasn't unique to the D700 launch.

Lastly (and I'm not sure this is going to help any...) I have to say that those D700 images don't look to be significantly different to the examples you've posted from the D7000. In what way do you see them as "better"?

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 01:29 PM
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#18. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 16


Dyserth, GB
          

Brian.

In fairness I am pretty adept at Photoshop CS & Lightroom when it comes to the "what it can do for me" areas. Certainly Lightroom for the occasional Event or Wedding I do. Perhaps not so with Nikon Capture NX2. No, I didn't know that it won't read picture controls and guess that this is a licence issue. In 2007 (and I don't know which camera Nikon started picture controls with, D300 perhaps)I did a fairly intensive 12 month, 5 hours a week course in Photoshop led by an Accredited trainer. This issue was never mentioned, but perhaps it was before the picture controls were installed. To be honest I really never thought about it not being PS accessible until you mentioned it.

Now, why do I think that the last posted pictures are better then the D7K. Firstly they are sharper to my eye, in my opinion. Secondly I remember not really even having to think too much about my camera settings Shutter Priority highish speed, matched ISO to achieve the speed, Click, Done! Finally, post processing. Levels, unsharp mask, brightness and contrast...done.

I really do need to get my head around the D7K, because up until now all I do is fiddle with settings, read forums and gradually end up in a blind alley. I would say a few thing in it's favour though. IQ in Landscapes, Architectural, excellent - portraits (not quite as good as D90/700 but acceptable) but long lens wildlife I seem to have a problem and that's what I mainly bought it for.

I'm underway with a degree course in Photography and I will use it along side my D700. I just have not got the long lens confidence with it for BIF/wildlife.

Richard

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 09-Dec-10 02:37 PM
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#19. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 18


Paignton, GB
          

We've been talking about this settings issue as "Picture Controls", but that is just the current way of referring to settings like sharpness, contrast, saturation, etc. These settings have never been read by non-Nikon software from NEF's out of any Nikon DSLR, even before we had the Picture Control concept.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 03:21 PM
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#20. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 19


Dyserth, GB
          

Thanks Brian and thank you to the other posters.

Richard

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 03:42 PM
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#21. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 14


St Petersburg, RU
          

Did you get your D300 right after it was released? I know there was a longer wait for Adobe to release a version that could read D90 files than they needed for the first D7000 compatible version. I had my D90 for 2 months, and I did not get one right after it was available, before a version of ACR worked. There was an improvement in the version released with LR3 beta that was close to the Nikon rendering, a span of 18 months.
If Nikon would release details of the file format and tweaks that are unique to each camera all the 3rd party software developers would make Nikon software obsolete. Now, it is a pretty good seller.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 04:07 PM
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#22. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 21


Dyserth, GB
          

Hi Stan

No problems. D300, D700 and D90 had been out 7 months, 9 months and 18 months respectively. Never had an issue with any of them. Until the D7000 I had never looked that deeply. The others just worked for me, simple as that.

Yes, I understand the reasons why Nikon and other manufacturers keep some file formats specifically for themselves, money, money! I just didn't ever know because until this camera I'd never used Picture Controls either. The default setting suited me fine.

I find the luminance control in LR3.3 superb for reducing noise in some high ISO D7000 images.

Richard

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Thu 09-Dec-10 04:23 PM
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#23. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 22


Paignton, GB
          

>I just didn't ever know because until this camera I'd never used
>Picture Controls either. The default setting suited me fine.

Just to be clear, if you didn't do RAW conversion with Nikon software you never saw on your computer what those camera default settings looked like.

Whatever values you choose in-camera, Lightroom and ACR will ignore them and use their own default values. This applies to all Nikon DSLR's.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Thu 09-Dec-10 04:47 PM
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#24. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 23


Dyserth, GB
          

Correct Brian, apart from a cursory look, I only started really using Capture NX2 very, very recently and am still getting up to speed on it. My RAW images have always been converted via LR3 or Adobe Camera Raw.

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Zevi Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Feb 2008Fri 10-Dec-10 04:09 PM
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#25. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 23


Ann Arbor, US
          

>Whatever values you choose in-camera, Lightroom and ACR will
>ignore them and use their own default values.

OK, maybe this has been discussed in the software forum (couldn't find it), but if I use Lightroom and not Nikon's NX -- how do I preserve my in-camera settings? I just can't see how one would spend hours fine-tuning the in-camera settings, only to lose them all where it really matters (on the computer, where you store and PP the images).

Thanks,
Zevi

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Fri 10-Dec-10 04:26 PM
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#26. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 25


Paignton, GB
          

>I just can't see how one would spend hours fine-tuning
>the in-camera settings, only to lose them all where it
>really matters (on the computer, where you store and PP
>the images).

If you don't use Nikon software at all, it would be a waste of time.

If your workflow is Adobe-based, or Aperture (etc...), and you want to shoot NEF's, simply don't bother with the in-camera Picture Control settings and concentrate on getting the software set up to your preferences.

An alternative would be to use View NX2 or Capture NX2 to do the RAW conversion (thus preserving the in-camera settings) and export the image for further processing as a DNG or TIFF.

None of this is D7000-specific; I suggest that this discussion would be better in one of our Postprocessing Forums.

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Fri 10-Dec-10 04:30 PM
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#27. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 25


Dyserth, GB
          

I believe from Brian's post that unless you process the RAW images in Capture NX2, you will loose the "in camera" settings when opened in Lightroom and Adobe Camera Raw or any other 3rd party software for that matter. However, I suppose if you save images in both RAW and JPEG you won't loose them in JPEG as they are burned into the EXIF data so cannot be destroyed by the 3rd party software.

I am sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

Cheers

Richard

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Fri 10-Dec-10 04:32 PM
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#28. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 27
Fri 10-Dec-10 04:32 PM by richardd300

Dyserth, GB
          

Sorry, I was beaten to it with my reply by a few minutes

Richard

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elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009Fri 10-Dec-10 04:37 PM
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#29. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 25


US
          

>
>OK, maybe this has been discussed in the software forum
>(couldn't find it), but if I use Lightroom and not Nikon's NX
>-- how do I preserve my in-camera settings?


It only applies to the NEF files but the only software that reads the in-camera settings is Nikon software.

There are two philosophies in shooting, neither is better than the other. There is the get it right in camera crowd and the raw shooters. With raw shooters there are two camps using Nikon software and using third party editors. I am a raw shooter and use a mix of Nikon and PS to process them.

There is also a trend of thought about maximizing the sensor DNR and SNR. Some leave the settings to produce a flat image with little sharpening and often employ ETTR when possible. Reason being is that the camera histograms are based on the in camera conversion embedded JPEG and using a flat processing gives a better indication of captured information. If you are prone to chimping and you use heavy sharpening and image processing you might show clipping that is a result of the processing not necessarily sensor saturation. And to that end some even go to the extreme of using a Uni-WB. Of course that means more time in front of the computer processing images, but we feel that you can get an overall superior image in most cases than if you use in camera processing.

If you take the time to tweak the in camera settings to produce out of the camera images then shooting JPEG is all that is needed. You could also tweak and shoot NEF’s using Nikon software to do further tweaking afterwards.

But if you are shooting NEF’s and using other software, then all that tweaking is lost. Well not really a total loss if you are using the preview image to do a quick check of sharpness and image quality.

Hope this helps.

Pete

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Zevi Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Feb 2008Fri 10-Dec-10 05:02 PM
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#30. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 29


Ann Arbor, US
          

Thank you all for these informative and very helpful replies!

I don't want to hijack the thread, and as Brian indicated -- it really belongs elsewhere. I'm going to re-think my workflow and take my questions to the appropriate forum.

Cheers,
Zevi.

  

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wwt67 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2010Fri 10-Dec-10 11:55 PM
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#31. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 30


Warsaw, US
          

Richard,
I, like you, was dissapointed by sharpness from the D7k compared to my D5000. I still find getting proper exposure a gamble. Let's leave that for another day.
I have tryed everything I can think of to equal image sharpness of my D5k. This is what I'm doing now and I can only ask that you try it. I find it very acceptable.

1. Shoot raw. Use Standard picture control with sharpness increased to 5.

2. Turn off noise reduction if your at iso 1600 or less.

3. Open raw files in CNX2 or VNX2. This will give you the picture control settings from your camera and a huge head start.

4. Crop your images first, if you need to. Then resize them. In VNX2 you have to apply resizing on export. In CNX2 you can resize them before you export them.

5. Export them in tif, 16bit, no compression.

6. Import into your Adobe software of choice and do what ever you need.

I just started using LR3 and don't like that you can only resize on export. I get much better results by resizing first and then apply sharpening.
Also, you said you applied 78 sharpening and 80 NR. I think that's overkill. I am finding (following the steps above) that 15-30 .7-.9 radius sharpening is plenty and Luminance NR above 30-50 is way too much. I hardly ever need NR. But I resize my files to 1920x1200 for final viewing on my computer (not printing).

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 11-Dec-10 03:17 PM
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#34. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 12


Alberta, CA
          

Wonderful series Mike, very sharp D7000 images and that Bosque is a must see for me someday! Really liked your landing Snow Geese, Harriers, and battling Sandhill Cranes!

Richard, glad to see things are turning the corner for you. I would concur about not using noise reduction, I make very limited usage of it myself and then generally ONLY applying it selectively on the backgrounds and not on the bird itself. If you have hit correct exposure for the bird you shouldn't need any noise reduction on the bird. Sometimes I miss exposure on the bird and need to increase exposure in post and then I might consider noise reduction on the bird itself if my ISO was greater than 800. But these underexposed and noise-reduced photos are not my best photos; it is so much better to achieve good exposure in the first place . Anyhow yes, really limit NR if at all possible as it can be a sharpness killer.

Anyhow, hope things continue to improve for you. I am an exclusive Capture NX user myself so have followed this thread with some interest.

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 11-Dec-10 03:26 PM
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#35. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 10


Alberta, CA
          

Keith I hope things turn around for you as well. I would say from experience the best of all worlds is owning a D700 AND A D7000 They both have their strengths.

If you are really committed to indoor basketball and must limit to a single camera, the D700 is simply going to be better I think unless you are using flash. There is only one camera in the entire world better than the D700 in low light and that is the D3S of course.

Best regards, SteveK

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kwb49 Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Dec 2007Sun 12-Dec-10 12:30 AM
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#37. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 35


East Liverpool, Ohio, US
          

Thanks for the thoughts Steve.

Keith

  

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M_Jackson Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Sat 11-Dec-10 03:41 AM
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#32. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 0


Jackson, US
          

Richard,
Try eliminating a barrel of variables and shoot a bunch of test shots in JPG mode. All your in-camera settings will be permanently applied to the images. This will give you test images immune to ACR, LR, and other RAW converter's adjustments. Some people say if you are going to shoot JPGs, you better get everything right in the camera. That's the point here.

Of course, you could shoot RAW+JPG and be able to compare.

I'd suggest shooting at F/8 on your tests but there will be many people with varying opinions on the suggestion. It might have helped on the sparrow and you probably didn't need 1/1000 of a second to capture a sitting bird. I would shoot that image with spot focus in single servo mode and put the focus point on his eye. 9 and 21 point CF will often pick the buds at the shoulder of the bird as it did in your photo.

Lastly, you didn't say whether you were panning with the seagulls or whether you were capturing the bird as it was flying through the scene. I would assume you were panning, but your sharpness will vary a lot by how well you pan with it as it flies by.

Good luck! I followed your "Houston" post earlier.

M. Jackson

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sat 11-Dec-10 08:34 AM
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#33. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 32
Sat 11-Dec-10 09:33 AM by richardd300

Dyserth, GB
          

WWT67 and M Jackson in particular.

Thanks both for those suggestions and I will certainly give them a try. Regarding the f8 aperture, I do try to achieve as near to that as possible. I was panning with sea gulls. Also, with the sparrow that was my error as I swung the camera from seagull 40ft away to sparrow 10ft away (approx) but kept the camera in AF-A 3D tracking, hence the innapropriate focus point. Normally for a stationary bird I use Single point.

In fact, one of the best things about the D7000 against the D700/D90 is U1/U2. It is so easy to select and because I will be using the camera mainly for wildlife and BIF, I have set U1/U2 to suit that: My basic settings are - U1 = RAW ISO 800, Focus 11 point AF-A 3D with tracking. Picture control Vivid, sharpening +7. This is for BIF. U2 = RAW ISO 200, AF-S. Picture control Vivid, sharpening +7. This is for stationary or slow moving wildlife. Following advice gained here, post processing will now be via NX2, exported as DNG then photoshop if required.

I find the ability to switch between U2/U1 excellent and a big improvement over both the D90 and 700 where the ability to swiftly change the custom bank required is clumsy. U1/U2 has been adopted from the Coolpix P6000 which I also have as a point and shoot go anywhere camera. In my opinion one of Nikons best designed compact cameras.

I will look closely at your settings and let you know how I get on.

Thanks.

Richard

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M_Jackson Silver Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Sat 11-Dec-10 11:25 PM
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#36. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 33
Sat 11-Dec-10 11:27 PM by M_Jackson

Jackson, US
          

If shooting for Stock Photography, almost all houses require unsharpened images. Not in the camera, not on importing, and not in post production. The agencies might sharpen the small preview JPGs, but the images they supply are unsharpened. The agencies that buy the images resize the image to fit their needs, then sharpen to suit their output. They do not want to enlarge sharpened images and multiply all the issues generated by sharpening. It is very difficult for me to submit an unsharpened image, but you have to play by their rules.

I went to a seminar in Oregon a few years ago and the presenter used the Clarity slider in Lightroom to bring up the crispness (sharpening, but not really classified as sharpening). I asked whether he ever had any problems with stock agencies rejected images he had bumped up in the Clarity slider and he said NO, but of course you have to use that slider judiciously unless you are going for some sort of special effect.

If you apply a considerable amount of sharpening in your camera that is passed along to Capture NX, you will have theoretically nullified a processed TIF or PSD's ability to be used as stock. If the images are only for your own enjoyment, sharpen away! (You won't be ruining the RAW file, however)

I don't use Capture NX, but if you read between the lines, all the in-camera adjustments are just "hints" to the RAW file once it gets to the program. You can still adjust the same sliders that are not automatically adjusted going into LR or ACR. As other have stated, White Balance is the only one getting passed through to LR and ACR. There are lots of presets in LR that will apply automatic adjustments to your incoming images, and you can build your own presets, including adding sharpening and bumping saturation and contrast.

Good luck,

M. Jackson
Jackson Hole, WY

Blog: www.bestofthetetons.com
Web Site: www.tetonimages.com

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 12-Dec-10 01:09 PM
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#38. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 12-Dec-10 01:16 PM by richardd300

Dyserth, GB
          

Hi

Just been out today, around and about. I feel at last I am really getting somewhere. There was no opportunity for BIF, but using a 70-200mm f/2.8 + X1.7 teleconverter I took the 3 images attached. The in camera Picture controls were restricted to sharpening at +7 in Standard mode. Although I have not obeyed some rules, e.g. keeping to around f8 etc, I feel the images are now as sharp as my D90 images.

Post processing of the NEF images was achieved totally via Nikon Capture NX2 where the images were cropped. Levels, brightness and contrast were very slightly adjusted and the image sharpened. The images were saved as jpegs. The bird adjustments were also achieved by using control points. The images were saved a jpegs and were opened in Photoshop and resized.

Very importantly, I have adjusted some of my lenses by using lenscal checker at their maximum zooms and then checking sharpness again wide open. I know there are those who will argue that this is not a scientific way of doing it. All I can say is "it's worked for me".

The AF fine tune adjustments on my D7000 are.

LENS,
24-120mm = AF-Fine Tune value -7 Set @ Focal length 120mm
24-70mm = AF-Fine Tune value -1 Set @ Focal length 70mm
70-200mm = AF-Fine Tune value +2 Set @ Focal length 200mm
80-400mm = AF-Fine Tune value +2 Set @ Focal length 400mm


If I can achieve the same with BIF I will now be well pleased. We shall see, however things are looking better, although if this is to become a regular faff with new Nikon cameras I shall quickly become frustrated!

Hope the information is found be useful. Once again, thanks for all the help.

Richard













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Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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wwt67 Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2010Sun 12-Dec-10 03:21 PM
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#39. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 38


Warsaw, US
          

Richard, don't you know that using AF fine tune has to be done in a scientific manner in a controlled environment or else it will gain you nothing? LOL! Sorry a bit of sarcasm ran over me.
Glad to see you made progress. It appears you zeroed in (actually + or -) on the sharpness.

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 12-Dec-10 03:52 PM
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#40. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 39


Dyserth, GB
          

Sounds like someone with a similar sense of humour to me! Sorry don't understand what you mean by "It appears you zeroed in (actually + or -) on the sharpness"?

Richard

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cdpohl Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Nov 2009Sun 12-Dec-10 04:20 PM
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#41. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 40


Fountain Hills, US
          

I've been following this thread, and there have been some great suggestions.
Your shots have surely improved in sharpness. I notice you use matrix metering on the birds. I think you could probably further improve by using spot or center-weighted metering. Just my thought for wha it's worth.

  

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 12-Dec-10 05:38 PM
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#42. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 41


Dyserth, GB
          

Thanks and I certainly have taken on board your comments.

One thing's for sure, I've learned loads about the camera and software side of things. Especially about things I've never ever used before like AF fine tune, Picture Controls and the relationship between them and NX2 and NEF processing.

That said and all power to the learning slope, the D7000 is certainly a capable camera. I just really hope in the future any replacement to my D700 doesn't involve as much input! It's been a long haul to get back to the IQ of the D90. Whether owners will say in time that it is worth all the hype that has been heeped towards it, will remain to be seen.

I'll keep posting as things improve.

Richard

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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

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Gamecocks Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jul 2010Sun 12-Dec-10 07:46 PM
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#45. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 38
Sun 12-Dec-10 09:01 PM by Gamecocks

Joanna, US
          

Good looking shots, Richard. You seem to be making progress each day and I hope it continues.

Regards,

John

PS - thanks again for your email.

Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. <><

  

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pperreault001 Registered since 05th Nov 2008Sun 12-Dec-10 05:51 PM
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#43. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun 12-Dec-10 06:55 PM by pperreault001

Montreal, CA
          

Hi Richard,

Just to add to some of the post processing suggestions, I have worked really hard in the last couple of months to find the best way to "develop" and use my RAW files and also a complete digital workflow...

Here's what works for me...

1. Import Raw files with View NX2 (with the backup option activated)
2. Use View NX2 to delete the really bad ones. Keep the rest!!!
3. Use Capture NX2 to develop a full size uncropped "negative"

(I usually shoot with a modified picture control set to neutral in camera but with a bit less sharpening than the Nikon preset. I prefer to do the shapening as the last step, for the intended media. I also prefer to do my post processing before the sharpening.)

4. Export all the files as uncompressed TIFF (16 bits)

5. Import all the files in LR3 to catalog them, and add metadata at
the same time

6. Fine tune pictures (crop, ev, contrast, color, etc) in LR3. I's
also cool to be able to save snapshots to compare different
settings

7. Basic sharpening is done as the last step

(All the steps in LR3 are non destructive. So be sure to backup your LR3 catalog on a very regular basis!!!)

8. When I'm happy with the results, I export a processed full size
uncompressed TIFF (16 bits) and a resized JPEG for the web


So basically at the end of the day, I have 4 files for the same picture.

1. A RAW "negative" (develop in CNX2)
2. A TIFF "negative" for post processing (processed in LR3)
3. A TIFF "master file" (all processing applied so this file can be
use in any software in the future, it's not tied to any software)
4. A JPEG "web version" of the "master file"

And I do version for printing as needed...

It's a lot of data, but with the cheap cost of harddisk and online backup today, I really don't mind...

PROS:

Best RAW picture quality (to my eyes) because of the use of CNX2

Excellent cataloging in LR3 compared to View NX2

Faster adjustments (exposure, color, cropping, etc)of multiple
files in LR3 than CNX2 or Photoshop. I prefer that to batch
processing cause I can fine tune the settings for each picture.

The metadata is in the TIFF and JPEG files instead of being in
an XMP sidecar files if I was working with RAW in LR3

After some time, this workflow have become quite natural and
easy. I found this complicated at first,now I really like it!

4 versions of the same picture X 3 locations (Computer,
external HD and online backup) = 12 files for the same picture.
For some people it's a disadvantage. To me it's an insurance
against a corrupted file.

CONS:

Lot more steps involved compared to doing it all in LR3, but
to my taste, CNX2 in better than LR3 to "develop" Nikon RAW. I
really don't like the RAW section of any Adobe software.

More data to manage and backup

More time consuming

More expensive having to acquire 2 softwares (CNX2 and LR3)

No metadata in RAW files but I really don't mind

So basically, my RAW files are never imported in LR3. The only thing LR3 sees in my "negative" TIFF files.

Hope this helps in general way...

Regards,

Pierre
Montréal, Qc, Canada

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richardd300 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Apr 2009Sun 12-Dec-10 07:16 PM
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#44. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 43
Sun 12-Dec-10 07:27 PM by richardd300

Dyserth, GB
          

Brilliant Pierre. I have been sitting here this evening noting down different ways of best approaching my workflow and along came your post. I have copied and pasted your post into file and I certainly will be either adopting it in total or at least most of it. Also, I batch process in LR3, so have all the software.

Once again, thank you. It's posts like this that make the forum so worthwhile.

Regards

Richard.

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Visit my website www.pixels4u.co.uk
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. Einstein

  

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pperreault001 Registered since 05th Nov 2008Sun 12-Dec-10 08:50 PM
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#46. "RE: Some D7000 BIF Images and a follow up to many earlier posts!"
In response to Reply # 44


Montreal, CA
          

Hi Richard,

Well, I'm happy that my post is helping you! I've always found the people around here to be helpful, mature and polite. So it's my pleasure to do what I can to help others.

One last thing, I have found that for my workflow to be efficient and reliable, I need to always do the same steps, in the same order. Whether it's for 5 files or 500 files... That's the only way for me to not forget anything.

Now that I'm finally happy with my workflow (methodology, safety, compatibility) and especially results. I'm re-developing, re-processing and re-cataloging all my digital pictures from the last 6 years...

Lot of work, but it's fun! I have found pictures that I didn't even remember shooting...

And after that, in a couple of months I hope... It will be time to find a good scanner, and do this for film, prints and slides...

See you in 2014...

Regards,

Pierre
Montréal, Qc, Canada

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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