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Subject: "Why use 24MP?" Previous topic | Next topic
Pirate123 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Feb 2013Thu 06-Jun-13 02:02 PM
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"Why use 24MP?"


Winter Garden, US
          

One of the selling points for the D7100 is the 24MP CMOS sensor. If you are never going to to do very large enlargements why would anyone shoot at 24MP? Isn't it just overkill? It would seem like shooting large, fine in the 1.3 crop mode which produces approx 15MP would be sufficient.

  

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Reply message RE: Why use 24MP?
Bill Kennedy Gold Member
06th Jun 2013
1
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Pirate123 Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
2
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Bill Kennedy Gold Member
06th Jun 2013
3
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billD80 Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
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JPJ Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
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MarkM10431 Silver Member
06th Jun 2013
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RRowlett Silver Member
07th Jun 2013
7
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Bill Kennedy Gold Member
07th Jun 2013
8
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jec6613 Silver Member
08th Jun 2013
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Rob_ZN Gold Member
07th Jun 2013
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ndtking Gold Member
07th Jun 2013
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sabbey51 Silver Member
07th Jun 2013
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cockers Silver Member
07th Jun 2013
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mudman2 Silver Member
08th Jun 2013
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km6xz Moderator
12th Jun 2013
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Omaha
12th Jun 2013
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km6xz Moderator
13th Jun 2013
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27th Jun 2013
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03rd Jul 2013
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02nd Jul 2013
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walkerr Administrator
02nd Jul 2013
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Bill Kennedy Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Jan 2013Thu 06-Jun-13 03:07 PM
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#1. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 0


Christiansburg, US
          

So you can crop!

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Pirate123 Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Feb 2013Thu 06-Jun-13 03:52 PM
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#2. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 1


Winter Garden, US
          

>So you can crop!

I see. So if you intent to crop you can get a better quality photo by cropping from a 24MP vs a 15 MP file.

  

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Bill Kennedy Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Jan 2013Thu 06-Jun-13 04:31 PM
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#3. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 2


Christiansburg, US
          

Yes, and I find that no matter how much time I spend composing the photo. once I get it on the monitor I can improve it by cropping.

I also find the 1.3 crop mode kind of a gimmick--all you are doing is cropping down the full size image and the viewfinder is showing the 1.5 crop limited by the sensor with a rectangular window showing the 1.3 crop. Why not just take the full size image and crop in post--gives you more options.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Thu 06-Jun-13 04:42 PM
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#4. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 3


US
          

I tend to crop about 2% of my images, and I exhibit/sell 20x30's all the time...

The D7100, with the right lens is capable of crazy resolution, though it may well go to waste on smaller prints. Still, it's nice having extra gas in the tank, plus the fact the AF is excellent.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Thu 06-Jun-13 05:54 PM
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#5. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 0


Toronto, CA
          

Another advantage, besides cropping, is the ability to down sample images to the size equivalent of a 16 or 12 MP photo which can be very effective in reducing the appearance of noise without applying actual noise reduction.

I was completely against the increase in megapixels, but after months of using the D800e, I am finding them overall to be a huge advantage.

Jason

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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MarkM10431 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Apr 2013Thu 06-Jun-13 11:08 PM
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#6. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 5


jacksonville, US
          

I also tend to think with the extra information being saved, especially with RAW images, you have much more to work with. I suspect (though I have yet to try it) I might be able to pull better HDR with a single 24 MP raw file than three 10 MP bracketed files from my old D80.. note to self to try that

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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RRowlett Silver Member Charter MemberFri 07-Jun-13 12:26 AM
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#7. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 0


Hamilton, US
          

Cropping at the sensor at time of capture to 15 mpixel is not the same as resampling the 24 mpixel image to 15 mpixesl (binning) or simply collecting a 15 mpixel image in the first place from a full-size DX sensor (with larger, more efficient, light-gathering photocells). By cropping at the sensor, you are basically using your D7100 like a 4/3 format camera, with all the disadvantages of smaller individual photocells with no frame-wide resolution compensation.

The whole point of the 24 Mpixel sensor is to achieve higher spatial resolution in the final image. If you don't need the spatial resolution, then you are best served by downsampling the image (binning) to increase signal to noise. This is done routinely in scientific imaging where we might use 2x2 binning to increase the effective size of a pixel--in this case each "pixel" is a combination of the intensities from each of 4 pixels. It's a little more complicated for a color camera sensor than a single-color sensor, but the principle of binning is approximately the same.

Cheers.

  

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Bill Kennedy Gold Member Nikonian since 17th Jan 2013Fri 07-Jun-13 11:17 AM
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#8. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 7


Christiansburg, US
          

"By cropping at the sensor, you are basically using your D7100 like a 4/3 format camera, with all the disadvantages of smaller individual photocells with no frame-wide resolution compensation"

Excellent point!

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jec6613 Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Feb 2013Sat 08-Jun-13 12:51 PM
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#14. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 7


Norwalk, US
          

>Cropping at the sensor at time of capture to 15 mpixel is not
>the same as resampling the 24 mpixel image to 15 mpixesl
>(binning) or simply collecting a 15 mpixel image in the first
>place from a full-size DX sensor (with larger, more efficient,
>light-gathering photocells). By cropping at the sensor, you
>are basically using your D7100 like a 4/3 format camera, with
>all the disadvantages of smaller individual photocells with no
>frame-wide resolution compensation.

I think the point of the crop mode is that it gives you a faster frame rate and deeper buffer, with no other changes to the camera.

Also, the 24 MP does mean that noise is less noticeable at high ISOs when printed or viewed on a normal size screen, as the noise tends to average out from several nearby pixels.

  

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Rob_ZN Gold Member Nikonian since 23rd Dec 2012Fri 07-Jun-13 11:48 AM
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#9. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 07-Jun-13 11:49 AM by Rob_ZN

Durban, ZA
          

I think the simplest answer to that question is - "Because I can"

I shoot full resolution on a D800 and though I may not need to, it's nice to know that I can get a 40cm X 60cm print (or so) without resampling anything.

  

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ndtking Gold Member Nikonian since 16th Jun 2008Fri 07-Jun-13 12:05 PM
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#10. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 0


Kitchener, CA
          

I think the only advantage of the 1.3 crop is a faster frame rate. If that is a concern, then go ahead and use the 1.3 crop - otherwise I think you're better off to start with the full 24MP and do cropping and resampling in post.

Gerry King
Ontarian Nikonian
Flickr Gallery:www.flickr.com/photos/ndtking

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Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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sabbey51 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Jan 2010Fri 07-Jun-13 05:10 PM
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#11. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 10


Saddle river, US
          

More data is always better than less data.

  

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cockers Silver Member Nikonian since 25th May 2006Fri 07-Jun-13 06:14 PM
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#12. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 11
Fri 07-Jun-13 06:15 PM by cockers

Plover, US
          

Not if it is to be cropped of anyway.

Al

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Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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mudman2 Silver Member Nikonian since 14th May 2009Sat 08-Jun-13 11:47 AM
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#13. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 11


Jamison, US
          

>More data is always better than less data.

Same as audio +1

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Wed 12-Jun-13 02:40 PM
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#15. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 13


St Petersburg, RU
          

Technically better but not aesthetically in either images and audio. Both rely on content more than resolution and bandwidth to determine whether a work is compelling. Many times additional resolution detracts from the message or idea.
I worked in an industry for 35 years where content or perception over shadowed technical quality by many orders of magnitude. The same in every photo and art gallery in the world
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

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Omaha Registered since 07th Jan 2012Wed 12-Jun-13 05:15 PM
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#16. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 15


Omaha, US
          

That's the fundamental truth of all of this. No camera has ever taken an iconic photo.

Visit my Nikonians gallery
Most of my Nikon photos end up here.

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 13-Jun-13 07:16 AM
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#17. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 16
Thu 13-Jun-13 07:26 AM by km6xz

St Petersburg, RU
          

A good analogy was related to a long conversation last night. A friend and client came over last night for me to advise him about a new audio effects processor. He is investing a lot of money in trying to get pristine recordings of his original music. One 1954 built German mic he added to this home studio was $5200. A small rack mount summing buss was 2800, His cables, monitors, monitor amps additional mics, eqs etc is over $60,000 and nothing has been recorded yet. His whole focus is on getting a technically perfect sound.
I asked him to name a few important songs in his life that made a difference. He names several. I had to inform him of how they were recorded and with what equipment and the, technically inferior product they were. That made my point to him, no one cares or notices technical aspects of a song or photo or painting unless it is a bad song, photo or painting for content reasons. He could not describe any faults in those songs because the compelling song transcends the technical realm. The brain fills in what is needs to and ignores what it needs to if the core image intrigues or compels enough to capture the emotions or imagination.
No great song has been ruined by poor technical processes, nor has a great photo. But no bad song or image become desirable or evocative due to its technical aspects, any more than a painting became desirable because of technical aspects of the pigment or canvas, r brushes. In my friend's case I had to chastise him for getting caught up in the technical process of making rather than performing it. I have heard the songs on his project and nothing stood out as really interesting. Nothing on the production side is going to change that, whether he spent $1 or $1million. I find that the fascination for hobbyists in the creative arts often gets sidetracked into focus on technical details of lenses or minute resolution differences when it is usually a way of seeming to be creative, when they have nothing compelling to share. So for many, the hobby becomes the equipment, not use use of it in creating something that would be a new standalone entity of art. A lot, if not the majority have a hobby of photographic equipment and processes but not making photographs. There are far more posts on camera forums than photo forums.

This is where the idea of pixel peeping has harmed creative output much more than aided. Pixel peepers are almost alway equipment hobbyists, not photo art hobbyists. Hi-End hi-fi people are equipment hobbyists and seldom care as much for the music. They say they are great music fans but watching their behavior dispels that notion.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Bravozulu Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2012Thu 27-Jun-13 08:41 PM
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#18. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 17


Los Angeles, US
          

Stan, that was great wisdom. Putting metrics on human creativity diverts a person's attention from the creative process to hardware fascination. Great for the camera manufacturers, but beside the point to the rest of us.

Gone are the days of the 36 exposure roll of film, which forced the photographer to be economical with his shots and to think ahead and look closely at the scene. I love the freedom of digital, and the unreal convenience of it all, but I think the point of photography is to get the human brain inserted in the process. To make aesthetic and technical adjustments that support the photographer's vision.

Think of what it means to cram 1000 images on an SD card. Wow. What a temptation to become a machine gunner.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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rogermorris Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Apr 2013Wed 03-Jul-13 03:14 PM
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#25. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 18


Harrogate, GB
          

Good point about the capacity of modern memory cards, however after 50 years of SLR photography (35 with Nikons) I still check the 'frame counter' frequently, even if it says 485 to go!

  

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lautry Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Oct 2011Tue 02-Jul-13 08:57 PM
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#19. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 17


Panama City Beach, US
          

a good response, Stan. I tend to "get over" my perfectionist tendencies as I get older. Your friend will come to realize one day he can have the best equipment and set up available but his aging eyes and ears will never let him completely appreciate it as they once might have when he was younger. Sorry for getting off post subject here.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Tue 02-Jul-13 09:05 PM
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#20. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 17


Colorado Springs, US
          

Very well put, Stan.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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MarkM10431 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Apr 2013Tue 02-Jul-13 10:28 PM
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#21. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 17


jacksonville, US
          

>A good analogy was related to a long conversation last night.
>A friend and client came over last night for me to advise him
>about a new audio effects processor. He is investing a lot of
>money in trying to get pristine recordings of his original
>music. One 1954 built German mic he added to this home studio
>was $5200. A small rack mount summing buss was 2800, His
>cables, monitors, monitor amps additional mics, eqs etc is
>over $60,000 and nothing has been recorded yet. His whole
>focus is on getting a technically perfect sound.
>I asked him to name a few important songs in his life that
>made a difference. He names several. I had to inform him of
>how they were recorded and with what equipment and the,
>technically inferior product they were. That made my point to
>him, no one cares or notices technical aspects of a song or
>photo or painting unless it is a bad song, photo or painting
>for content reasons. He could not describe any faults in those
>songs because the compelling song transcends the technical
>realm. The brain fills in what is needs to and ignores what it
>needs to if the core image intrigues or compels enough to
>capture the emotions or imagination.
>No great song has been ruined by poor technical processes, nor
>has a great photo. But no bad song or image become desirable
>or evocative due to its technical aspects, any more than a
>painting became desirable because of technical aspects of the
>pigment or canvas, r brushes. In my friend's case I had to
>chastise him for getting caught up in the technical process of
>making rather than performing it. I have heard the songs on
>his project and nothing stood out as really interesting.
>Nothing on the production side is going to change that,
>whether he spent $1 or $1million. I find that the fascination
>for hobbyists in the creative arts often gets sidetracked into
>focus on technical details of lenses or minute resolution
>differences when it is usually a way of seeming to be
>creative, when they have nothing compelling to share. So for
>many, the hobby becomes the equipment, not use use of it in
>creating something that would be a new standalone entity of
>art. A lot, if not the majority have a hobby of photographic
>equipment and processes but not making photographs. There are
>far more posts on camera forums than photo forums.
>
>This is where the idea of pixel peeping has harmed creative
>output much more than aided. Pixel peepers are almost alway
>equipment hobbyists, not photo art hobbyists. Hi-End hi-fi
>people are equipment hobbyists and seldom care as much for the
>music. They say they are great music fans but watching their
>behavior dispels that notion.
>
>Stan
>St Petersburg Russia

Visit
>my
>Nikonians gallery>.




well said. D'you think Ansel Adams photos would be better taken with a D800? methinks not. (thought he may have taken more )

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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sabbey51 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Jan 2010Tue 02-Jul-13 11:31 PM
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#22. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 21


Saddle river, US
          

I doubt very much Ansel's pictures would be better with a D800, but I'm pretty sure mine are better with my D7000 than any film camera I ever had. I take advantage of the features it offers that allow me to create images I never could before, whether its chimping, cropping, or using LR and other tools for developing. That being said, I doubt a D800 would improve my results much - I don't feel like I've completed using up what the D7000 has to offer yet. Or to put it another way, there's little I want to do that a new DX or FX body would make much easier, let alone "better".

To me, new gear gets bought when I hit a barrier that the current stuff raises. Want to shoot sports indoors? That 3.5-5.6 zoom will make it hard and limiting. Shooting landscapes in the sun? A viewfinder-less camera, regardless of IQ, makes it hard. Want to do discrete candids or street photography? A D4 "works", but you're probably better off with a smaller kit.

Like Stan's friend, I also record music as a hobby. And like my approach to photography, my studio gear is chosen to solve a problem and not to somehow create "the best" setup. Except for guitars. One can never have too many guitars ...

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Wed 03-Jul-13 12:51 AM
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#23. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 22


Colorado Springs, US
          


>setup. Except for guitars. One can never have too many
>guitars ...

My wife tells me it's definitely possible.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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sabbey51 Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Jan 2010Wed 03-Jul-13 08:57 PM
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#27. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 23


Saddle river, US
          

>
>>setup. Except for guitars. One can never have too many
>>guitars ...
>
>My wife tells me it's definitely possible.


With all do respect to your lovely and wise wife, she is clearly mistaken.

  

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MarkM10431 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Apr 2013Wed 03-Jul-13 03:03 PM
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#24. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 22


jacksonville, US
          

that's funny.. i feel the same way about Sig-Sauers.. I'm always thinking i need one more...

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RLDubbya Registered since 24th Dec 2011Wed 03-Jul-13 04:10 PM
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#26. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 17
Wed 03-Jul-13 04:11 PM by RLDubbya

US
          

>This is where the idea of pixel peeping has harmed creative
>output much more than aided. Pixel peepers are almost alway
>equipment hobbyists, not photo art hobbyists.

Stan, I certainly agree in spirit, and that was a fine rant. Thank you.

However, I think that the equipment hobbyists are good for something: without their infusion of market capital, Nikon et al would probably not develop so many new products that permit us to express our creativity. So in a sense, they make an invaluable contribution to creative output.

It's just other's creative output that gets the help.

I'm truly thankful for this. When film pretty much died, I moved to a point-and-shoot camera. It seemed like, no matter which brand I used, they broke after about 12-18 months - usually the little motor that moved the lens in and out.

After replacing 4 or 5 of them, I wondered about making the move to DSLR. I thought I'd get something that didn't break under normal use as frequently (I hoped) and obviously would enjoy greater flexibility in creating my images. I was delighted to find that I could purchase an entry level D5000 that floored me with its capabilities at what I thought was an incredibly great price.

When my pictures started to be shared more with others, and I was invited to do some assignments, I needed a second body, and some additional flexibility. So I sprang for the D7000s. Again, I was delighted to find such an incredible instrument at such a reasonable price.

18 months later, as much as I'm affected by the dreaded NAS, I'm having a blast exploring making images with my dreadfully outdated D7000. I'm glad that there're better cameras available; someday I might outgrow my D7000, and it's nice to be able to upgrade.

Some of my favorite landscapes, however, were shot with those old point-and-shoot cameras.



  

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vitalishe Registered since 27th Dec 2012Sun 14-Jul-13 01:06 AM
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#28. "RE: Why use 24MP?"
In response to Reply # 0


Los Alamos, US
          

I assume your question is about the file size. Then ...
- If you shoot JPG, you can choose a smaller file size.
- If you shoot in RAW, chances are good you care about details. Then the more information you have the better (within reasonable limits).
An interesting idea is a smaller RAW. I read somewhere that Canon has this option. I assume it is easier just to keep the complete info in 24MP file that to devise a way to downsize is to a smaller file (which could be done in many different ways).

  

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