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Subject: "D7100 & Sharpening?" Previous topic | Next topic
billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Fri 22-Feb-13 02:44 PM
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"D7100 & Sharpening?"


US
          

I'll probably get the D7100 as available...

I'm excited about the 24mp sensor and no AA filter, but this leads me to ask: What about Sharpening? Without the AA filter, is sharpening irrelevant? If not, how should it be handled differently than with previous cameras? I set my D7000 at '6', finding Nikon was very conservative in the factory setting.

I only shoot RAW, convert in NX2 or Capture NX3...

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
JPJ Silver Member
22nd Feb 2013
1
Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
billD80 Silver Member
22nd Feb 2013
2
     Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
Chris Platt Silver Member
22nd Feb 2013
3
          Reply message What?
Jim Pearce Silver Member
24th Feb 2013
19
               Reply message RE: What?
JPJ Silver Member
24th Feb 2013
20
                    Reply message Well, another way of putting it is...
Jim Pearce Silver Member
24th Feb 2013
21
Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
walkerr Administrator
22nd Feb 2013
4
Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
billD80 Silver Member
22nd Feb 2013
5
     Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
dagoldst Silver Member
22nd Feb 2013
6
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billD80 Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
7
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tommiejeep Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
8
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dagoldst Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
9
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walkerr Administrator
23rd Feb 2013
10
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tommiejeep Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
11
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km6xz Moderator
23rd Feb 2013
12
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billD80 Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
13
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dagoldst Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
14
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walkerr Administrator
23rd Feb 2013
15
                              Reply message RE: D7100 & Sharpening?
billD80 Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
16
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JPJ Silver Member
23rd Feb 2013
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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Fri 22-Feb-13 04:29 PM
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#1. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 0


Toronto, CA
          

Good question Bill, I think the answer is going to be that there is still a place for sharpening, just less of it and applied more judiciously.

This article on the 800/800e is a good read on this issue: http://falklumo.blogspot.ca/2012/05/d800-aa-filter.html

I wonder whether Nikon has changed their in camera sharpening for these models without an AA filter, I suspect they have.

Also given that diffraction is going to set in fairly early, sharpening will be necessary to try and recover some of that lost appearance of sharpness. Finding the balance in shots to get the maximum detail/sharpness as between aperture and diffraction will be interesting.

Jason

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Fri 22-Feb-13 10:09 PM
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#2. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 1


US
          


>Also given that diffraction is going to set in fairly early,

Why will it set in early (because of the 24mp vs. 16mp?), and by early, at what point, f/10? Earlier?

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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Chris Platt Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Sep 2012Fri 22-Feb-13 10:32 PM
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#3. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 2


Newburg, US
          

Basically, yes.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

Visit my gallery.

  

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Jim Pearce Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Mar 2004Sun 24-Feb-13 02:11 AM
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#19. "What?"
In response to Reply # 3


Grimsby, CA
          

Diffraction is not affected by the presence or absence of an OLPF.

Jim

  

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Sun 24-Feb-13 03:11 AM
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#20. "RE: What?"
In response to Reply # 19
Sun 24-Feb-13 03:12 AM by JPJ

Toronto, CA
          

>Diffraction is not affected by the presence or absence of an
>OLPF.

The AA tends to mask what would otherwise be visible diffraction. In that way it is 'effected', but not directly, it is there, it just cannot be seen. Without the AA, the effects of diffraction will be visible earlier.

The effect of the AA of course results in the loss of visible sharpness so there is give and take.

Jason

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Jim Pearce Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Mar 2004Sun 24-Feb-13 03:27 AM
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#21. "Well, another way of putting it is..."
In response to Reply # 20


Grimsby, CA
          

If you're not shooting with near-perfect diffraction limited lenses the absence of an OLPF won't do you much good. If you have to be at f8 to be sharp, there's little point.

Jim

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 22-Feb-13 11:05 PM
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#4. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 0


Colorado Springs, US
          

Sharpening is definitely not irrelevant - you'll just want to do a bit less of it. I have a D800 and a D800e and my Lightroom/ACR settings for the D800e are about 15-20 points less on its intensity scale than the D800 for roughly equivalent results. That's a different scale than NX2's sharpening scale, but the point is that you'll want to sharpen a bit less with a D7100.

BTW, I'd try moving away from Picture Control sharpening to NX2's USM sharpening unless you're just making family photos or other snapshots. Picture Control sharpening is really coarse and cranking it up just produces nasty halos rather than getting you fine detail. USM definitely offers better control, and then you also have the option of sharpening selectively. The difference can be pretty profound.

Also, are you just doing one round of sharpening or following up with a second round for the output format and size?

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Fri 22-Feb-13 11:11 PM
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#5. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 4
Fri 22-Feb-13 11:12 PM by billD80

US
          

Picture Control sharpening is really
>coarse and cranking it up just produces nasty halos rather
>than getting you fine detail.


Haven't run into that at all.


>Also, are you just doing one round of sharpening or following
>up with a second round for the output format and size?


I always use 100% mag on Capture NX2 to see what I need to add. I've never had to reduce/remove the '6' setting brought in via the D7000 NEF.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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dagoldst Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012Fri 22-Feb-13 11:57 PM
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#6. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 5


Little Rock, US
          


>Haven't run into that at all.
>
>

I have and I believe Rick is correct in that the Nikon Picture Control sharpening is pretty crude. I have seen it in both my D600 and my wife's D3100.

David

"Sawed that board three times and it is still too short... "

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Sat 23-Feb-13 03:07 AM
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#7. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 6


US
          

>I have and I believe Rick is correct in that the Nikon Picture
>Control sharpening is pretty crude. I have seen it in both my
>D600 and my wife's D3100.

Could you post an example? That'd be helpful.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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tommiejeep Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2008Sat 23-Feb-13 03:56 AM
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#8. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 7
Sat 23-Feb-13 06:36 AM by tommiejeep

Goa, IN
          

Bill, thanks for bringing the subject up. I am also considering the D7100 and have some concerns over the AA filter.

I am probably one of the worst at PP .
This is ooc Standard pic control with sharpening at +5, saturation at +1, hue at -1, adl auto, NR moved to "better". CNX2
That is why I call it a "Cartoon"
Click for larger



This is ooc with pic control back to neutral, 0 sharp, sat. and hue zeroed out and adl still at auto, NR left as is ooc. No PP! Anyone is welcome to play with it



Most here can make it look better and particularly Rick! I wonder what the rumoured CNX3 will look like ?

I do shoot a lot of sport in jpeg and nef and the kids do not mind the "cartoon' look at saves me a heck of a lot of PP

Hope this is some help.
ps this was handheld
Cheers,
Tom

Manuel Sousa - alias... T.D.Hardin
http://taja.smugmug.com/
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/165169

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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dagoldst Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012Sat 23-Feb-13 04:06 AM
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#9. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 7


Little Rock, US
          

>Could you post an example? That'd be helpful.

I don't mind taking some time to create examples for you, but do you not believe we have seen haloing with in-camera sharpening?

David

"Sawed that board three times and it is still too short... "

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Sat 23-Feb-13 06:18 AM
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#10. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 7
Sat 23-Feb-13 06:42 AM by walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
          

Here you go. This is a 100% crop of a small section of a shot made with a D800e. The first is sharpened via ACR 7, but I could have replicated its look using USM. The second is with a Picture Control sharpening setting of "6" in NX2.





I have a pretty strong preference for the first shot.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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tommiejeep Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Jan 2008Sat 23-Feb-13 06:34 AM
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#11. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 10


Goa, IN
          

Wow Rick, that is one heck of a drastic difference. Great example.
"I have a pretty strong preference for the first shot." Have to agree .

Thanks,
Tom

Manuel Sousa - alias... T.D.Hardin
http://taja.smugmug.com/
http://images.nikonians.org/galleries/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/165169

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Sat 23-Feb-13 07:11 AM
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#12. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 11


St Petersburg, RU
          

For most people using the PC on these forums, the use of PC sharpening is for in-field rear display evaluation and not actually using JPG for prints or presentation. I set a PC with +6 sharpening just for that purpose and from I see on the forum, that is typical.
Sharpening in post on RAW files is best done selectively and appropriately for the output type. Usually as a multi-step process, once before re-sampling and one after.
One of the features of NX2 I really like is being able to embed various versions of the same data in the single raw file so one can be for large print, another small print and yet another for screen viewing, all with different sharpening radius and amount, and contrast that fits the presentation characteristics. An image destined to be viewed on a Retina disply tablet will need different settings than one going to a inject printer for example.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Sat 23-Feb-13 02:13 PM
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#13. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 10


US
          

>Here you go. This is a 100% crop of a small section of a
>shot made with a D800e. The first is sharpened via ACR 7, but
>I could have replicated its look using USM. The second is
>with a Picture Control sharpening setting of "6" in
>NX2.
>

The first is clearly better... I use a setting of '6' in the Camera, not in NX2. So the haloing on the branches in the second image is not something I've noticed. I've never had to use NX2 to lessen what the camera put in the RAW file. I also use Standard Mode.

I typically print 12x18 for ones to keep myself, and 20x30 on glossy aluminum for exhibition and sale. 99% of the time I'm printing completely uncropped images.

Typically, and I know this is bad, I PP for the largest size, and don't bother touching the sharpening (or anything) for smaller sizes. I print from the full file no matter how small the prints are going to be.

So, I suspect from all this that the setting for sharpening in a D7100 (in-camera) will be very low. Actually, staying apples to apples, I'd expect a bit of resolution increase to be noticeable at 20x30" even with no sharpening applied.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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dagoldst Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Dec 2012Sat 23-Feb-13 02:24 PM
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#14. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 13
Sat 23-Feb-13 02:43 PM by dagoldst

Little Rock, US
          

Here is an example that I set up. The jpeg is unaltered, it was set to maximum sharpening in the D3100. The RAW file was edited to add the Nikon Standard profile and sharpened with the LR4.3 dialogue. Otherwise, to keep all things the same, I left the RAW file alone.

I believe I can not only see no halo effect in the RAW, I actually see the fine texture of the box that in-camera processing smoothed out. Personally, I prefer the RAW.










David

"Sawed that board three times and it is still too short... "

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, ( file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Sat 23-Feb-13 02:26 PM
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#15. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 13


Colorado Springs, US
          

If you're using NX2 to process your raw files, it doesn't matter where you set the sharpening level - it's the same. If you're shooting jpegs, the Picture Control sharpening level is a bit lower, but the same problem exists with a lack of fine detail in images.

Ultimately, it's up to you how you want to work with your images, but a lot of people don't know how good their current cameras are because of how they sharpen in post-processing.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Sat 23-Feb-13 02:41 PM
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#16. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 15
Sat 23-Feb-13 02:42 PM by billD80

US
          

>If you're using NX2 to process your raw files, it doesn't
>matter where you set the sharpening level - it's the same. If
>you're shooting jpegs, the Picture Control sharpening level is
>a bit lower, but the same problem exists with a lack of fine
>detail in images.

Thanks for the info. I never shoot JPEG's, and my assumption has been that NX2 imported the RAW file (with camera settings in-tact, and also removeable). PP is my weakest aspect of photography, and I'm sure I'm only getting 25% of what NX2 can do. Mainly, I use it to touch up saturation, and, if needed, global sharpening.

I really work for getting what I want in-camera -- a habit from shooting slides.

Having said that, I'm coming away with extremely good detail without the "haloing" effect which I think I would have noticed.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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JPJ Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2009Sat 23-Feb-13 02:57 PM
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#17. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 16


Toronto, CA
          

Bill,

The removal of the AA filter will almost certainly be accompanied by a change in how in camera sharpening effects images. In camera sharpening was largely meant to counter the effects of the AA filter. At wider apertures (before diffraction becomes a real issue), very little if anything, should be required (unless the image lacks sharpness for other reasons such as camera shake - but that is really a case for PP sharpening or better, taking the photo again and trying to eliminate the shake). As aperture increases and diffraction becomes visible it could assist in making the photo appear sharper, within reason.

I am actually really interested to see how Nikon deals with this.

I have seen some really sharp RAW files from the 800E with no sharpening applied. I expect the same will be true of the D7100, perhaps more so as the filter has been completely removed.

Jason

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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billD80 Silver Member Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2007Sat 23-Feb-13 11:17 PM
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#18. "RE: D7100 & Sharpening?"
In response to Reply # 17


US
          

>
>I have seen some really sharp RAW files from the 800E with no
>sharpening applied. I expect the same will be true of the
>D7100, perhaps more so as the filter has been completely
>removed.


Yes! That would be phenomenal.

www.billkeane.zenfolio.com

  

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