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photographerdave Registered since 23rd Dec 2005Wed 06-Jun-12 01:33 AM
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"Law Question?"


North Florida, US
          

I photographed our daughters dance recital. The owner wanted us to photograph all the kids and post them so that parnets could buy pictures of their children in the recital if they wanted. One of the parents said we could not sell the photographs because they could be used by other people for other uses. In a situation like this do you actually have to get model releases for all these children? At best we stood to make a few bucks to help cover a little of the time taking and working on the pictures and now the owner is afraid to let us post the recital pictures. Does anyone know the particulars legally for a situation like this? This recital was open to the public and everyone was taking pictures and videos.

David

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Law Question?
PAStime Silver Member
06th Jun 2012
1
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blw Moderator
06th Jun 2012
2
Reply message RE: Law Question?
photographerdave
06th Jun 2012
3
Reply message RE: Law Question?
Joseph Bautsch
06th Jun 2012
4
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PAStime Silver Member
06th Jun 2012
6
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gkaiseril Gold Member
06th Jun 2012
5
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agitater Gold Member
06th Jun 2012
7
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blw Moderator
06th Jun 2012
8
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dm1dave Administrator
06th Jun 2012
9

PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Wed 06-Jun-12 05:33 AM
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#1. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed 06-Jun-12 05:34 AM by PAStime

Kingston, CA
          

Hi,

Five thoughts:

0. this is probably best discussed in the Cafe forum
1. I'd be tempted to say "so what" to that parent. Their point is not evident.
2. it may depend in the jurisdiction you are in (USA? Thailand? Sweden?...)
3. it depends on who is asking (a parent asking is different than an independent photographer asking versus the dance school asking)
4. it is the kind of topic where the more you poke at it, the more convoluted it gets, the more extreme the stories you'll hear from others, and therefore the more it would seem you have to go to great lengths to protect everyone against everything!

Peter

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Wed 06-Jun-12 11:51 AM
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#2. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

Additionally there are a couple of other questions:

- The owner - of what?
- "other people for other uses" - presumably you'd only be offering them to the parents.
- They were objecting to the selling of them? Or were they objecting to the taking of the photographs in the first place?
- post the pictures: posting and selling are two completely different things. As is taking them.
- Finally, in public and in private are two completely different things in the US. If, as an extreme example, the recital were held on the Washington DC Mall under the Washington Monument, there is a different expectation of privacy than if the recital is held in, say, a very exclusive members-only club.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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photographerdave Registered since 23rd Dec 2005Wed 06-Jun-12 12:26 PM
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#3. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 2


North Florida, US
          

Thank you for the reply. The owner of the Dance Studio. The event was held in a theater with paid admission open to the public. Of course only family and friends would be there. The parent evidently was concerned that their child was so beautiful the photo would be bought up by some business and posted on Bill Boards for all the world to see. It was held in Florida. One thing I see for certain is that there is NO MONEY to be made in the age of everyone has a digital camera I PHone Notebook etc. When the lights went down, the theater practically glowed from all the Lcd screens in the audience. I hope none of them sell to some company with Billboard

David

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Joseph Bautsch Registered since 15th Oct 2009Wed 06-Jun-12 12:28 PM
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#4. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0


Marietta, US
          

If you are only selling to the guardians of the minor child then there is no problem. Their act of purchase is permission for you to sell it to them. However you could not sell the photographs for commercial purposes, for publication or advertising or to other people attending the dance recital without a photo release. News papers publish photos taken in public forum all the time even though they sell the papers as well as advertising. It's the same principal here the photos were taken at a public event. If you could not do this then photographers shooting weddings would have to get a release from everyone in every shot just to sell the photos to the bride. I don't think that would work very well.

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PAStime Silver Member Nikonian since 10th Feb 2009Wed 06-Jun-12 03:42 PM
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#6. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 4


Kingston, CA
          

>However you could not sell the
>photographs for commercial purposes, for publication or
>advertising or to other people attending the dance recital
>without a photo release.

Hello,

Is this really the case? What if I did? I am just being inquisitive.

Is there a US law preventing such sales (you could get fined or end up in court) or is this just recommended practice (it reduces future potential problems).

What if I (assume here an individual and not an incorporated going concern) printed some shots for a fellow parent and they paid me $20 for the trouble?

What if the image includes other dancers, background dancers, some members of the audience, ...

Cheers,
Peter

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Wed 06-Jun-12 03:21 PM
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#5. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed 06-Jun-12 03:24 PM by gkaiseril

Chicago, US
          

Within the EXIF you can add data to indicate that the images are not for commercial or other use without written permission of the parent or guardian.

Of course others could chose to ignore this. But if this data survived in the digital image, it might provide the parent or guardian with some evidence that the user of the unauthorized image was warned within the usual practices within the press and photographic communities. There are very specific fields used in the IPTC, International Press and Telecommunications Council, Photo Meta Data standard and extensions. This data is used by the press and advertising businesses.

One could also just not make the images of the protesting parent/guardian not available.

Maybe the owner should seek some legal assistance about this matter. It might come down to future recitals only allowing children whose parents have signed a release to be allowed to participate.

Also consider that anyone who has taken an image of the child in question at the recital could also misuse it.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Wed 06-Jun-12 09:15 PM
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#7. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0


Toronto, CA
          

There will always be some paranoid mother or father who sees nothing but darkness or evil or malfeasance or some such.

Treat the situation just like the team photos taken by a pro photographer or agency for a Little League baseball team. Low-res thumbnails only online (so they can't possible be used for anything other than the intended purpose), severely limit the number of shots so that an overabundance of choices does not exist, and use a temporary web page which is taken down immediately after the photo selection/purchasing deadline has been reached.

You don't need model releases because the presumptive use of income from photo sales is to help raise money for the dance school. The photos are being used commercially, so no model release is needed. If you try to go for model releases and some parents refuse to sign, you'll end up not being able to use any photo depicting their respective kids which will likely ruin the whole attempt at fundraising. The point is that releases imply recognition of the need for permission, and the absence of only a few releases further implies the recognition that some photos depicting some kids can't be used. No releases at all, on the other hand, means just what photos of a middle school stage play usually - public performance for educational purposes, from which photos are derived for sale to raise funds.

Some parents tend overcomplicate things because they've been conditioned to see nefarious devils around every corner.

If you want to allay all fears, don't publish even thumbnails online. Don't publish online at all. Instead, print and post photos (or put them in an album) for parents to review and order at the dance school.

Keep in mind too that even if you end up doing a low-res online album, setting up ecommerce for parents to actually order online is not a simple matter. So even with a quickie online album of the recital, parents will still have to write down their selections and order prints through you or through the school. A print album at the school may be the best idea.

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Howard Carson, Managing Editor
Kickstartnews Inc. - http://www.kickstartnews.com

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Wed 06-Jun-12 09:25 PM
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#8. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

There are some parents who do not want pictures of their kids distributed, for security reasons.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Wed 06-Jun-12 09:32 PM
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#9. "RE: Law Question?"
In response to Reply # 0


Lowden, US
          

Hi Dave,

Since the law varies so much from state at state and country to country Nikonians discourages any discussions that involve legal advice.

Your best bet is to talk to someone with legal knowledge in your State / County prior to making any sales.

This thread is now locked.

Thank you for understanding.

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
Nikonians Photo Contest Director

Nikonians membership -
"My most important photographic investment, after the camera"

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