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Subject: "D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole" Previous topic | Next topic
timroid Registered since 08th Nov 2011Fri 11-Nov-11 03:32 AM
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"D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"


IN
          

Hi All,

On a recent trip to the mountains - I was taking some shots of the sun in the bright morning. Since, couldn't look through the view finder I used the live view to compose the image. I took around 3-4 shots and none of them were long exposures. I had the 50mm 1.8 attached to the camera at that time.

After that I started noticing bright spots on one corner of the images with a high enough shutter speed (say greater than 1/800). I used mirror lock up in bulb mode to take a look at the shutter curtain and I could see a tiny circular hole in the curtain at one corner. So, obviously at high shutter speeds all the curtain falls quick enough the the mirror doesn't fall at the same speed therefore, during that time lag some light gets in through the hole!

My camera is still under warranty and I was wondering if this will be covered. If not, how expensive will it be to repair/replace the curtain. Also, does any one know of a DIY method to repair the hole without damaging the sensor?

Regards,
Shoumit

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Len Shepherd Gold Member
11th Nov 2011
1
Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
blw Moderator
11th Nov 2011
2
Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
gkaiseril Gold Member
11th Nov 2011
3
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blw Moderator
11th Nov 2011
4
     Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
gkaiseril Gold Member
11th Nov 2011
5
          Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
blw Moderator
11th Nov 2011
6
          Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Vlad_IT Silver Member
12th Nov 2011
7
          Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Len Shepherd Gold Member
12th Nov 2011
9
Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Len Shepherd Gold Member
12th Nov 2011
8
     Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
blw Moderator
12th Nov 2011
10
          Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Vlad_IT Silver Member
12th Nov 2011
11
          Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
blw Moderator
12th Nov 2011
12
          Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Len Shepherd Gold Member
13th Nov 2011
13
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blw Moderator
13th Nov 2011
14
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Leonard62 Gold Member
13th Nov 2011
15
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blw Moderator
14th Nov 2011
16
                    Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
Len Shepherd Gold Member
14th Nov 2011
18
Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
agitater Gold Member
14th Nov 2011
17
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Vlad_IT Silver Member
16th Nov 2011
19
     Reply message RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole
blw Moderator
16th Nov 2011
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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Fri 11-Nov-11 07:01 AM
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#1. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 0


Yorkshire, GB
          

Nikon warn on page Xii of the instruction book "Sunlight focused into the camera when the sun is in or close to the frame could cause a fire."
In LiveView the mirror is up all the time between shots as well as during the actual exposure.
The sun might cause internal damage behind the mirror over a few minutes "LiveView on" time.
The sun should not be directly focused on the open shutter blades.
It could be the shutter housing got hot enough to melt one of the shutter blades underneath.
I think what you are saying is, with short exposures, enough light gets through the hole in the curtain to be a large percentage of the total exposure. With long exposures the light leak is a much smaller percentage of the total exposure and less likely to show in pictures.
I expect the only solution is a new shutter mechanism - a fairly expensive job if Nikon do not treat the hole as a warranty issue.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 11-Nov-11 01:29 PM
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#2. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 0


Richmond, US
          

I seriously doubt that the hole has anything to do with shooting pictures of the sun.

Most if not all of Nikon's shutters have been metal for decades. It is MUCH harder to burn a hole in a titanium or aluminum foil curtain than, say, the old cloth shutters that were found in Leicas and early SLRs. It's not impossible, but just consider how high the melting point of aluminum is compared to the combustion point of even untreated cloth. I don't know what material is used in the D7000 shutter, but the melting point of aluminum is 1200˚F, and that of titanium is 3400˚F. It is not reasonable to believe that the shutter could be physically damaged in this way without leaving obvious thermal traces. Furthermore, if the shutter curtain had been heated to 1200˚, it's virtually certain that the sensor behind it would have been damaged too. Even more so if the curtain is titanium rather than aluminum...

Consider how long it takes to burn paper with a magnifying glass deliberately focused on it - at least tens of seconds, if not minutes - and that paper's combustion point is about 450˚F.

Finally, note that the problematic time was not the length of the exposure, since that is when the shutter is out of the way. If it could have happened at all, it would have been the time between the live view focusing (when the shutter was open, to allow the sensor to capture the LiveView) and the time that the exposure actually started. I don't know how long this is with accuracy, but it is certainly less than a second. Because I perceive this to be significantly less shutter lag than a typical P&S camera, I suggest that the period of time between the end of LiveView and the beginning of the exposure is on the order of 200ms, or a fifth of a second. (Shutter lag for really slow P&S is about 300ms.) I'll leave it to a physicist to tell us how much energy has to be delivered to the shutter curtain to damage it within 200ms, but I am certain that it's a lot. I'd be surprised if even a typical laser could do that, in fact.

Note that I'm not suggesting that you don't have a hole in the shutter, only that I'm quite certain that it wasn't the sun in the picture that was responsible for it.

Even if the sunlight focused into the camera in exactly the wrong way for a period of time sufficient to damage something had happened, since you were in LiveView, it would have damaged the sensor or the antialiasing filter, not the shutter.

----

Focal plane shutters also always run at about the same speed. The difference in shutter speeds is created by having two curtains, and the exposure time is the difference between the time that the two shutters fly.

----

I've had to replace one shutter (put my thumb through it whilst slipping and doing a face-plant into a pile of snow), and two of my friends have had to replace others. (One fell out of an ATV, the other camera was dropped on concrete. We're obviously a dangerous lot.) Replacing pretty much any Nikon shutter is apparently about a $400 job.

In this case, I cannot think of a way in which you could have feasibly caused the pinhole. Even if you had, you would have seen the effects of the heat - there would have to have been discoloration around the hole, and you didn't mention any of that. So I would guess that this really is a manufacturing defect, and that Nikon probably would have to cover it under warranty.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Fri 11-Nov-11 01:47 PM
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#3. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 2


Chicago, US
          

Could be a "Hot Pixel" or "bright dot defect", Defective pixel. It might clear up in time or Nikon service can map it out.

Holes burnt into shutters generally occur from having a camera sitting on its back and no lens cap over the lens.

It is even possible to burn a Speedlight lens with a better beamer attached.

Any focusing lens like a camera lens or better beamer can focus any light to a fine dot and if the light source is the Sun any number of items can be damaged.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 11-Nov-11 01:58 PM
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#4. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 3


Richmond, US
          

> Holes burnt into shutters generally occur from having a camera sitting on its back and no lens cap over the lens.

This is only true in a camera such as a rangefinder, which has nothing between the lens and the shutter. In an SLR, the mirror protects the shutter and the light is directed out the pentaprism/viewfinder.

> It is even possible to burn a Speedlight lens with a better beamer attached.

True, but the melting point of plastic is much, much lower than even the combustion point of paper.

It is not impossible to damage things, but I am pretty certain that there was no hole burnt into the shutter in the scenario described here.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Fri 11-Nov-11 04:41 PM
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#5. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 4
Fri 11-Nov-11 04:50 PM by gkaiseril

Chicago, US
          

The shutter curtain is exposed when the mirror is locked in the up position.

The thinner the material the easier it is to burn a hole in it and less heat is dissipated by thinner material. Sort of like the difference between a an aluminum fry pad and and a sheet of aluminum foil.

The OP may have burned the hole either before or after the event he thinks caused the problem and might not even be aware of how it happened. There could be a paint blister raised by less heat or just some sticky dust. Also the OP may not be aware that the recorded image is upside down and reversed as a result of the way the lens projects the focused image, so if one looks at the closed shutter and the image one needs to adjust for the reversing of the top/bottom and left/right. On film focal plane bodies, this type of hole would cause a bight line across the image.

George
My Nikonian Galleries

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Fri 11-Nov-11 08:11 PM
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#6. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 5


Richmond, US
          

> The shutter curtain is exposed when the mirror is locked in the up position.

Sure, but in this case the OP had the mirror up due to LiveView, in which case the shutter is open. It is really pretty hard to burn the shutter because while it is possible to lock the mirror up and NOT be in LiveView, that's not what happened in the cited scenario.

It's certainly true that the very thin curtains take much less abuse than, say, the same material (whatever it is) in 1/4" thick bars, but the situations under which the curtain is exposed to the lens in a SLR are quite limited. Back in the days of the F2 or F, we could lock the mirror up and leave it up indefinitely, but with a DSLR (or any of the AF film bodies going back to about 1995 or earlier) mirror lockup is a relatively rare event. You'd have to set the dial to Mup, then hit the shutter release to flip up the mirror. But then most of us would simply wait a couple of seconds to let the vibrations die down and then hit the shutter again. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that in Mup mode, the mirror automatically comes back down if the shutter isn't released within about 30 seconds. So I'd say that the only way to burn the shutter is to use Mup mode and have the light be so focused and so powerful that it could do the job in 30 seconds. Since I can't even get a piece of paper to burn through in 30 seconds while I'm trying, I am skeptical that there are virtually any shutters on DSLRs that can be burned.

> the recorded image is upside down and reversed as a result of the way the lens projects the focused image

Very true.

> On film focal plane bodies, this type of hole would cause a bight line across the image.

That's a good observation - I never had it occur on an SLR, and I only saw the aftermath of a rangefinder to which this had happened. It shouldn't be different on a digital body, should it? The sensor is activated for at least most if not all of the time that the shutter curtains might be active, especially with fast shutter speeds. So if there really is a hole, it would show as a trail, rather than as a point.

The more we talk about it, the less I think there's a hole there at all. I think it's much more likely that it's a stuck pixel, as you mentioned earlier.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Vlad_IT Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Sep 2011Sat 12-Nov-11 12:09 AM
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#7. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 6


US
          

when we were kids and tried to start a fire with a magnifier glass we needed to "focus" sun on an object. If you move a bit - you got a not-focussed circle (CoC effect). Shutter is not in focus point of the rays, the sensor is. So to burn a hole in sutter the AF system needs to malfunction and "focus" on sutter itself.

Best regards,
Vlad

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sat 12-Nov-11 09:08 AM
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#9. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 5


Yorkshire, GB
          

>so if one looks at the closed shutter and the image one needs to adjust for the reversing of the top/bottom and left/right.
In the era of film with the camera back open viewed from the back of the camera the image was upside down and reversed i.e. a hole top left appeared bottom right viewed through the camera back, and on the film.
With digital the shutter can only be viewed from the front of the camera with the mirror up.
Because the viewing direction is reversed looking into the mirror box a left side shutter hole (or dust speck) on a digital image is on the left side of the mirror box.



Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sat 12-Nov-11 08:50 AM
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#8. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 2


Yorkshire, GB
          

>Most if not all of Nikon's shutters have been metal for decades.
Nikon switched to DuPont Kelvar blades in the F6 for (according to Nikon) better reliability and less weight for quick movement.
Nikon do not say what material they use for the D7000 blades - but over time new technology filters down to lower priced models.
If the blades are Kelvar (they may well be) burning a hole is a possibility.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 12-Nov-11 11:11 AM
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#10. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 8


Richmond, US
          

Kevlar apparently retains 50% of its strength even at 500˚F, so if the curtains are Kevlar (a real possibility), I seriously doubt that any non-contrived photographic situation could burn a hole in the curtain. Remember that the only way to focus the lens on the shutter is with Mup, and in Mup mode, you have only thirty seconds to get the "job" done.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Vlad_IT Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Sep 2011Sat 12-Nov-11 12:03 PM
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#11. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 10
Sat 12-Nov-11 01:28 PM by Vlad_IT

US
          

Len, Brian

what about low-frequency anti-dust filter? can it be a problem?

Best regards,
Vlad

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 12-Nov-11 03:24 PM
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#12. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 11


Richmond, US
          

That's glass, so it's hard to imagine getting that to a damaged state either. To melt glass, it takes putting it right in the flame, and at least I don't see that as very likely in a camera. Far more likely that one would damage the sensor - thermally - before the AA filter got even close to damaged.

_____
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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sun 13-Nov-11 04:55 PM
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#13. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 10


Yorkshire, GB
          

>Remember that the only way to focus the lens on the shutter is with Mup, and in Mup mode, you have only thirty seconds to get
>the "job" done.
This is not quite right, as I indicated in a previous reply.
When LiveView is used the shutter is open, and on DX is stored behind metal which can be seen through the mirror box.
As the OP mentions using LiveView for several shots, a DX camera, and very bright sun in the frame (the reason for choosing LiveView) if LiveView was on for several minutes if the sun was focused on the surrounding frame damage would seem possible to the curtain closest to the metal frame.
We have not seen the shutter - but the OP refers to being able to see a small hole when it is closed.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sun 13-Nov-11 07:26 PM
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#14. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 13


Richmond, US
          

And a hole in the shutter would show as a streak, not a point.

_____
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Leonard62 Gold Member Awarded for excellent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community, especially of Nikkor Lenses Nikonian since 15th Mar 2009Sun 13-Nov-11 11:24 PM
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#15. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 14


Hatboro, Pa, US
          

I have only seen holes in film camera shutters. The older Leica rangefinders with silk shutter curtains were most susceptible. There was no mirror to protect the shutter. But I would say the worst shutters were made by Exakta. It's hard to find a decent Exakta today without holes in the shutter. It's mostly caused by the deterioration of the rubber coating on the cloth and not by exposure to the sun. In that case it shows as dots. like this.



I fix the holes with liquid tape. I wouldn't do this to my digital cameras. In that case a shutter replacement is in order.

Len




Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Mon 14-Nov-11 12:43 AM
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#16. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 15


Richmond, US
          

Sure, but a digital sensor isn't active except right around the exposure time - unlike film grains. In this context, film and digital will behave differently.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Mon 14-Nov-11 04:36 PM
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#18. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 14


Yorkshire, GB
          

>And a hole in the shutter would show as a streak, not a point.
Not necessarily in the circumstances described in the OP, which I have already responded to in some detail.
At high shutter speeds (when the issue is reported) the shutter blades create a moving slit with each blade moving at slightly different times during the exposure. The slit depth reduces at faster than about 1/400 (Nikon do not quote a precise speed) to achieve shutter speeds between about 1/400.
Whatever the shutter speed different parts of the image are exposed at slightly different start and finish times.
Nikon do not say how many blades are used but 4 can be seen in the back of an F6 - and there may be more used during the exposure.
I am satisfied the effect described is possible.
Whether there actually is a hole in the shutter is another question.
Separating a hole effect during a period when one of the blades is stationary over part of the picture area from an internal lens reflection is in theory straightforward.
With correct exposure the effect is likely to show only at fast shutter speeds (as described) - and at any shutter speed with an internal lens reflection.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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agitater Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Jan 2007Mon 14-Nov-11 12:50 AM
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#17. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 0


Toronto, CA
          


>On a recent trip to the mountains - I was taking some shots of
>the sun in the bright morning. Since, couldn't look through
>the view finder I used the live view to compose the image. I
>took around 3-4 shots and none of them were long exposures. I
>had the 50mm 1.8 attached to the camera at that time.

You've described a very common shooting situation. It's impossible to burn a hole in a camera shutter in such a situation. If you're sure you've actually got a hole in the shutter, it was likely caused by some other action.

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Vlad_IT Silver Member Nikonian since 21st Sep 2011Wed 16-Nov-11 03:06 AM
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#19. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 17
Wed 16-Nov-11 03:09 AM by Vlad_IT

US
          

Please excuse my crazy idea but i think a hole in the shutter can be verified in long exposure NR mode (with some experimenting). Set camera to manual long exposure mode, taking picture of a white/gray subject (a door should work) and right after image is taken (shutter closed), point some bright light into the lens (flash light should be sufficient), while camera is taking second exposure with closed shutter for noise reduction calculation. If there is a hole in the shatter you should be able to see some sort of a spot with color distortion. Maybe instead of white subject it needs to be a total darkness, but i think it's worth a try.

But maybe it’s just a nonsense

Best regards,
Vlad

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Wed 16-Nov-11 01:34 PM
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#20. "RE: D7000 shutter curtain - burnt a hole"
In response to Reply # 19


Richmond, US
          

That is a good way to test the hypothesis. You'd want it to be dark for the real exposure (I'd use a lens cap, and manually set the exposure to, say, 30 seconds), but then once the shutter closes and "Job NR" is on the LCD, take off the lens cap and turn on as bright a light as you can stand. If there's a hole, it will show as a bright spot on an image that in theory should have nothing but dark pixels.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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