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Subject: "D7000 Irks..." Previous topic | Next topic
jules Basic MemberWed 14-Sep-11 10:27 PM
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"D7000 Irks..."


GB
          

Firstly I'll state that I have fairly bad Arthritis.
I'm having trouble with my new D7000, Having previously owned a D300/300s/700 and D3 Cameras I have found the hand grip doesn't feel quite deep enough, I've bought the MB11 grip and thats helped a bit, Just giving me more places to position my pinkies but my Arthritic Sauasage fingers don't want to bend and so the Camera feels uncomfortable, Is it just me and my particular problems or have others encontered this trait with the D7000, did you change it out or put up and get used to it, and did this awkwardness pass?

Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: D7000 Irks...
JosephK Silver Member
15th Sep 2011
1
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kuzzy Silver Member
15th Sep 2011
2
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jules
16th Sep 2011
3
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Clint S Silver Member
18th Sep 2011
4
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km6xz Moderator
19th Sep 2011
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jules
19th Sep 2011
6
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jmesseder2 Silver Member
19th Sep 2011
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jules
23rd Sep 2011
11
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mjhach Silver Member
12th Oct 2011
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13th Oct 2011
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20th Sep 2011
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26th Sep 2011
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JosephK Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his excellent and frequent contributions and sharing his in-depth knowledge and experience with the community in the Nikonians spirit. Nikonian since 17th Apr 2006Thu 15-Sep-11 01:45 AM
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#1. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 0


Seattle, WA, US
          

Of all the cameras listed in your post, the D7000 is the smallest one. That might be the problem for you. The grip will make it taller so that all your fingers are now on the "body" but the height and width are still smaller. However, the depth should be the same for all but the D3.

Personally I like a bigger camera for my bigger hands.

---------+---------+---------+---------+
Joseph K
Seattle, WA, USA

D200, 17-55mm f/2.8 DX, VR 70-200mm f/2.8 II, 50mm f/1.4 D,
18-70mm f/3.5-4.5 DX, 70-300mm f/4-5.6 ED, D70S

  

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kuzzy Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Dec 2005Thu 15-Sep-11 08:01 PM
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#2. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 0


Milford, US
          

I have found that the D7000 grip area seems a little shallower (maybe its just smaller) than the D70 I had and in turn my hand tends to get tired from holding it where as it did not in the past. I am not a smaller is better guy, frankly, I would love it if the D7000 was just a little bigger.

Marc
There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer.-Ansel Adams

http://500px.com/WhatISaw
http://kuzzy.smugmug.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jules Basic MemberFri 16-Sep-11 01:20 AM
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#3. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 2
Fri 16-Sep-11 01:24 AM by jules

GB
          

Thanks for that Kuzzy! I was beginning to think I was on my own here or just going Daft! Oddly I was out with it yesterday and it felt a little better, it's strange because I don't remember it being a problem with the D80 or the D70...
I'm willing to put up with it if I can get used because the image quality is beautiful like my Pentax K5 was, Zero shadow/Sky noise at ISO 100 which knocks the Canon 5D MKII I had into a cocked hat!
Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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Clint S Silver Member Nikonian since 02nd Jan 2011Sun 18-Sep-11 04:58 AM
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#4. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 3


Chula Vista, US
          

The D3s and D700 have a great feel. The D7000 feels just like my D70s - but once used to it the feel is very comfortable.

Visit my Nikonians gallery - my Spare Time gallery

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Mon 19-Sep-11 05:12 AM
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#5. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 3


St Petersburg, RU
          

A hand strap lowers gripping pressure a lot. There are several designs, and some should be called wrist straps to indicated how they differ from "hand straps". I got a cheapie for $19 from my dealer after trying the expensive Nikon hand strap. The cheap on was better design for me and how I shoot. Since I do not use a neck strap, and use some heavier lenses for long periods, the hand strap really works well in combination with a Black Rapid RS-5 sling strap.
The camera assembly(D7000, SB900, grip with battery, usually 70-200vr and hand strap)hangs at my side at the same level as my right hand would be when relaxed hanging at my side. The hand strap is intentionally adjusted to be a little loose so bringing the camera up for use is a very quick secure motion of slipping my hand into the strap, arching my knuckles slightly that creates a wedge action that looks the strap tight so very little gripping pressure is needed to secure and use the camera. That allows real security when changing lenses, or holding onto the camera in crowded congested areas as happens in events, and keeps my hands relaxed for hours of shooting with that combination. Retrieving the camera from its resting position is faster than a neck strap by far, and the whole assembly is easier to carry for long periods while walking, even running over broken terrain, without the sensation of weight. By moving the weight of the camera and lenses to the mid hand/wrist instead of fingers it should greatly reduce holding tension for someone with arthritis in finger joints.
When in operation my right fingers are free to flex or wiggle even when holding the camera securely because are not supplying the tension to support the camera. Go to a well stocked pro camera store which has a variety of hand/wrist straps and try them, one will likely feel right for you.
Since you have the grip( a great addition for feel and handling) and the great little camera the only thing missing is fine tuning the combination for your comfort. Try both the Black Rapid RS series of straps(you will throw your neck straps away and the neck pain they cause forever) and the hand strap as a security/comfort combination.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jules Basic MemberMon 19-Sep-11 05:54 AM
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#6. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 5
Mon 19-Sep-11 05:57 AM by jules

GB
          

>A hand strap lowers gripping pressure a lot.
>Since you have the grip( a great addition for feel and
>handling) and the great little camera the only thing missing
>is fine tuning the combination for your comfort. Try both the
>Black Rapid RS series of straps(you will throw your neck
>straps away and the neck pain they cause forever) and the hand
>strap as a security/comfort combination.
>Stan
>St Petersburg Russia



Good idea! I have a Camdapter and Strap from my old 5D MKII, I'll see if it fits!
Ta...

Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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jmesseder2 Silver Member Nikonian since 20th Aug 2011Mon 19-Sep-11 02:36 PM
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#7. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 6


Gettysburg, US
          

>>A hand strap lowers gripping pressure a lot.

I was shooting a school event one night, got a nice picture of a youngster, and was showing it to his mother when he came up and grabbed at my camera.

"I want to see," he said.

But his aim was a little off and he slapped the camera to the tile-on-concrete floor. I picked it up, sent it away to be repaired, and ever since have worn a wrist strap.

And found that not only does it keep little kids from destroying my equipment, it actually feels much better while carrying and shooting. Unlike on a neckstrap, the best of which are uncomfortable and slow to get "on target," the wrist strap makes the camera almost an extension of my arm.

John Messeder, JAFPR, MBS
Freelance environmental journalist
Gettysburg, PA, USA
Follow me on:</font></i><br>
= www.johnmesseder.com
= Please visit my Nikonians gallery

  

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jules Basic MemberFri 23-Sep-11 04:01 AM
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#11. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 6
Fri 23-Sep-11 12:12 PM by jules

GB
          

>>A hand strap lowers gripping pressure a lot.
>>Since you have the grip( a great addition for feel and
>>handling) and the great little camera the only thing
>missing
>>is fine tuning the combination for your comfort. Try both
>the
>>Black Rapid RS series of straps(you will throw your neck
>>straps away and the neck pain they cause forever) and the
>hand
>>strap as a security/comfort combination.
>>Stan
>>St Petersburg Russia


>
>Good idea! I have a Camdapter and Strap from my old 5D MKII,
>I'll see if it fits!
>Ta...

Hi Stan, tried my Camdapter and it's great, dunno why I'd neve though of it before but thanks for the suggestion!
Got the Camera pretty much how I want it now and it feels pretty nice in the hand with the Grip and the Hand Strap on.
Just need to decide if I'm going to do the button switcharound to get a dedicated AF on now but that means moving AE lock to the custom button and the the custom function to???
He He He...

>Cheers jules...
>tri-elmar-fudd
>www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk


Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Wed 12-Oct-11 11:45 PM
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#22. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 3


Simcoe, CA
          

Hey there, Jules.
I see you have used the D80 which is what I got back when it was introduced as my first digital SLR. I got a Canon TL back in the day (~40 yrs ago)and used it well till 8 or so years ago when I started going digital at 3.2 Mpix!!

So, I see that the creme de la creme of DX Nikon cameras is out for a while now in the D7000. Is this the time to change up for the "full of make-shooting-accurately features" body? What made you go for this when your D80 was shooting fine, I assume? I know mine is currently OK with the 18-200Dx lens but more than occasionally "misses" the right exposure on AP, SP or Auto and I have to fiddle going back to the Manual mode. Well, sometimes there isn't time to fiddle. COmements please.

Thanks
Mike

  

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jules Basic MemberThu 13-Oct-11 06:29 AM
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#23. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 22
Thu 13-Oct-11 07:09 AM by jules

GB
          

Been away from Nikon for hree years Mike!
There was never anything wrong with the D80!
Finances and a House move led to me having to part company with my 15000 pound Nikon Glass collection, I moved to smaller and Smaller differing systems in an ever decreasing spiral due to illness and lack of money from then on and it's still ongoing.
I was quite happily using a Pentax K5 with their lovely DA Primes until recently, mostly to re-teach me shot discipline (I get zoom lazy real quick!)
The move back to Nikon was dictated by
A: My other halfs impatience when I'm taking pictures IE: Changing Lense every few shots.
B: I shoot Landscape but always seem to end up hanging over a cliff or be right on a Lake edge and got sick of cropping shots and losing valuable Pixels because I have no room to back up or move forward (depending on which direction your looking!)
C: Pentaxes lack of suitable Lenses for my purposes both now and in the future (Got a few nice ones but not a great range really)
D: Autofocus, despite improvements with the K5 if it moves your'e going to be dissapointed!
E: Despite having also fell out with Nikon (Over their intransigence over Capture NX) I just missed being a Nikonian I guess...

Now then the D7000:
I have previously owned A D70/D200/D80 X2/D300/D300S/D700/D3
Loved them all really, none are perfect all have their little foibles,Irks...
Standout Irks are D700 Viewfinder, (I hate suprises in my Pictures and for me thats the No1 thing to address in the update!)
100% Viewfinder pleaaase!
D3: Not an Irk but I've got a Knackered back and the onset of pretty painful Arthritis, I figured if I had a bigger body (Camera!) it would be easier to Handle which to a point is true but it was also BLxxxY Painful to carry, and so gave it up.
D300 was about perfect, and theres not a lot of difference between that and the "s" version.
D80 is a lovely Camera and I alway had one when I owend the DX set up and indeed the D3, I found myself reaching for it more and more because I KNEW IT WOULDN'T HURT!
I have invested in good noise control software and filters but being primarily a Landcape shooter and once a travel shooter If I can't get the shot at ISO 100/200 whetehr hand held braced or on a Tri/Monopod I won't bother, I have no need to take Landscapes at ISO 51200 simply because there is an ISO 100, Everyones different but I just don't like what I see there!
So the D7000, I took a look at what was around in the Market and had to decide if I was going to be FX or Dx, initially I decided Fx because thats what the pundits tell you but I'm weight obsessed and if it's too heavy it ain't leaving the house! So I settled on a.....
Canon 7D, Which I owned for two long months, I just could not get away with the image quality! Could not get a sharp grain free image for love nor money, in short I hated it! I spent a pretty penny on Lenses including aa very good copy of the 100-400 which while I'm at it still irks me that Nikon don't have a good one yet (Another reason that pushed me to leave three years ago!)
It all had to go!
So back to the D300s then I thought, good but getting long in the tooth, My mate who runs the Jessops branch in Sunderland and who is a D300s owner told me NO! Try the 7000, so I did (Initial fear being that I did not want to buy into a Body that was further down the food chain than what I had become accustomed to) but despite a few Irks with the Body. These fell into insignificance whan I saw the image quality, now it's not as noise free as the D700 but not far off for my purposes, the D300 had noise especially in Sky areas at ISO 200 and I'm sure the D800 will walk all over it but for me it offers the best compromise of image quality and lightweight in the Nikon or frankly anyone elses range of Cameras.
Yes I'd like a bigger buffer/have a dedicated AF on button (Where the Mic is Please C'mon Nikon it's right where your'e thumb sits!)/be able to zoom in and out of pics with one button and have my ten pin remote fit but really thats it...
I have some money saved for the possible D400 but it will not totally replace my D7000, also I'm not totally convinced by this new Sony sensor if indeed Nikon go in that direction. I think if they are going to stick with 16Mp the Camera would already be with us, we'll just have to wait and see...
Long winded and not what you expected but I hope it helps a little...
Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Thu 13-Oct-11 12:43 PM
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#24. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 23


Simcoe, CA
          

Wow. THanks so much for the unexpectedly detailed response, which I do appreaciate the effort you took explaining your ownership history. That was great.
I do, in fact often crop shots so the 16mp would be nice, but yes, for most uncropped shots the 10.2 of the D80 is more than adequate. I want to get onto the D7000 bandwagon before Nikon realizes how good it is and raises prices rather than lower them. And carrying a D700 and big glass around on trails would indeed be more that a bit of a pain.

THanks so much again, that was really helpful.

Mike

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jules Basic MemberThu 13-Oct-11 02:24 PM
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#25. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 24


GB
          

Never a problem Mike!
Buy the grip as well as it gives you somewhere for your pinkie to travel as well as all the controls etc, it's a worthwhile accessory, Nikons prices do seem to be on the way up, at least they are trying to punish the discounters anyway...
Thai Factory Floods Can't help everything either, what with that and the Tsunami, the big guy upstairs seems to be giving us more to think about than jusr recession!
Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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RYnikon Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Oct 2003Tue 20-Sep-11 02:06 AM
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#8. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 2


Pittsford, US
          

Right. My little finger just does not fit compared to my D70S, which felt perfect in my hand.
However, a strategically placed piece of rubber tape gives that finger something to grab and it becomes more comfortable.
It's worth getting used to, and I can.

Robb
Photography: technically fine art!

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Tue 20-Sep-11 02:33 PM
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#9. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 8


St Petersburg, RU
          

Robb, try the MB-D11 grip or low cost Chinese version. You will love how it turns the D7000 into a slightly smaller D3(actually slightly taller, lower weight, and not as wide) but with similar GREAT balance, with places for all your fingers. Nothing balances better than a D3 but a D7000 + MB-D11 comes as close as anything I've felt. You will find that you can shoot comfortable at slower shutter speeds for the same accepted blur amount compared to the naked D7000. Vertical mode becomes the most comfortable mode in fact, with the AF-On button in the perfect spot.
For $60 there is not much that improves shooting and feel more.
Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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RYnikon Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Oct 2003Tue 20-Sep-11 03:00 PM
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#10. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 9


Pittsford, US
          

Stan,
Yes, I've got one (the Neewer version). It's great in all the ways you mention. Sometimes the the battery grip makes the body too big to fit somewhere, so I don't keep it attached all the time.
I use either an OpTech neck strap or a wrist strap, depending on whether I'm carrying it a distance or not.
I'm still trying to figure out how to make a wrist strap work smoothly with the battery grip in both orientations.

Robb
Photography: technically fine art!

  

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RYnikon Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Oct 2003Thu 29-Sep-11 02:44 AM
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#13. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 10


Pittsford, US
          

Stan, I think I've figured this out for me. I looked up the Black Rapid strap system you recommended above, and then also the Luma Loop system (very similar). But I really like my stretchy, comfortable OpTech strap.

I ordered just the Luma PodMount (screwed into the tripod screw hole, it provides an additional attachment point) for $15, thinking I'd try attaching my strap just to it. But I find I prefer my strap to be attached both at the left top mount and to the Luma PodMount in the tripod mount. I carry it over my opposite shoulder, and it hangs snugly against my body at rest (instead of bouncing around like when using both top attachment points). I can pick it up in an instant for either portrait or landscape framing, still supported by tension in the strap. Or I can use the shorter attachment pieces clipped together as a sort of hand strap.

Either method works well with or without the battery grip. The PodMount isn't too intrusive when gripping vertically. And because there are two strap attachment points rather than just one, I am less worried about the camera suddenly falling loose if the PodMount loosens unexpectedly.

Robb
Photography: technically fine art!

  

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km6xz Moderator Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in various areas, including Portraits and Urban Photography Nikonian since 22nd Jan 2009Thu 29-Sep-11 04:17 PM
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#14. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 13


St Petersburg, RU
          

I am glad you have figured out a solution for your comfort and security.
My only unresolved handling issue is the wrist strap in vertical orientation. When on the RS-5, security and drops is not an issue but my usual set up is keeping the heaviest and most used lens on the sling strap attached to its tripod foot. When changing lenses to a smaller one, the 70-200vr is just dropped to hang by my side and the smaller lens, camera and flash are secured by the wrist strap.....except in vertical mode, the only time there is a risk of dropping everything from being jostled in a crowded event or when climbing steep trails. I did a few sketches of a plan to make an L_bracket with a machined in slot that would allow the wrist strap stay put on the hand but allowing the camera to rotate 90 degrees. Think tight small leather flash rotating flash bracket but without the clearance that a normal bracket has from the camera body.

Stan
St Petersburg Russia

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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RYnikon Silver Member Nikonian since 14th Oct 2003Fri 30-Sep-11 02:21 AM
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#15. "RE: D7000 Irks..."
In response to Reply # 14


Pittsford, US
          

It appears to me that the L-brackets available via Kirk Enterprises, Really Right Stuff and perhaps now HejnarPhoto and ProMediaGear on eBay, all include an attachment point near the bottom right corner of the body.
That would allow a wrist strap (not a full hand grip) to be useful in either horizontal or vertical orientation.

Robb
Photography: technically fine art!

  

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jules Basic MemberMon 26-Sep-11 03:19 PM
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#12. "D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 9


GB
          


Getting more in tune with it now, and the Handling is much better with the Grip (Stan )
Nicer to take hiking than the old D3, my back thanks me for my poverty!

Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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RRRoger Silver Member Fellow Ribbon awarded for his long history of demonstrated excellence and helping other members with equipment, technique and DSLR video in the true Nikonians spirit. Charter MemberFri 30-Sep-11 01:53 PM
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#16. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 12


Monterey Bay, US
          

I too have been diagnosed with Arthritis.
Although it gives me little trouble (Thank God), lots of it showed up in my X-rays years ago.

You might try the D5100.
It is lighter and the grip is hard to let go of.
A neewer grip only cost $25 at Amazon.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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jules Basic MemberFri 30-Sep-11 06:17 PM
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#17. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 16


GB
          

>I too have been diagnosed with Arthritis.
>Although it gives me little trouble (Thank God), lots of it
>showed up in my X-rays years ago.
>
>You might try the D5100.
>It is lighter and the grip is hard to let go of.
>A neewer grip only cost $25 at Amazon.

Sticking to the 7000 for now but if Nikon delivers... Who knows... It may get a big brother!
Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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jules Basic MemberSun 02-Oct-11 04:54 PM
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#18. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 17
Sun 02-Oct-11 08:19 PM by jules

GB
          

Tried moving the AF to the AEL Button but it's uncomfortable for me as I'm a dyed in the wool left eye shooter!
If the button had been around about where the Microphone is I think it'd be perfect but you don't get perfect at that price from Nikon...
No idea where I'd put the Mic? (Would that not be better ontop anyway?)
Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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paddlenut Registered since 08th Oct 2011Sun 09-Oct-11 11:45 PM
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#19. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 18
Sun 09-Oct-11 11:46 PM by paddlenut

belmar, US
          

I am glad I am not the only one who is complaining about the grip. I actually sent my D7000 back and decided to wait for the new d400 ..but alas..no luck so reordered it..and I am dealing with it..and a broken left wrist which makes it more difficult to hold. I have tried it with a grip..but the problem is the camera grip is shallow ..so additioal grip does not address that problem.I have had it 30 days so no returning it now. I have gotten use to it..but not as comfortable as the D80. Love the cmaera so I guess I just suffer in silence.

  

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jerry r Silver Member Nikonian since 08th Oct 2008Mon 10-Oct-11 10:24 PM
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#20. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 18


Banning, US
          

Nikons ( maybe Canons) just weren't made for us left-eyed shooters.

I still haven't figured out (from D100 to D70 to D200 and now D300 plus D7000) how to NOT move the autofocus point out of place with my nose when shooting. Every time I use the lock, I need to then quickly move the AF point.

We left eyers need to assemble and march on Nikon!!!

Jerry

  

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jules Basic MemberTue 11-Oct-11 06:02 AM
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#21. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 20


GB
          

>Nikons ( maybe Canons) just weren't made for us left-eyed
>shooters.
>
>I still haven't figured out (from D100 to D70 to D200 and now
>D300 plus D7000) how to NOT move the autofocus point out of
>place with my nose when shooting. Every time I use the lock,
>I need to then quickly move the AF point.
>
>We left eyers need to assemble and march on Nikon!!!
>
>Jerry



Cheers jules...
tri-elmar-fudd
www.exaggeratedperspectives.co.uk

  

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gorilla_skater Registered since 31st Oct 2006Thu 17-Nov-11 08:11 PM
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#26. "RE: D7000 Irks are fading..."
In response to Reply # 21


Glastonbury, US
          

Hi,

I wanted to chime in on this thread because I recently upgraded from my trusty D80 with grip to the D7000. One of the first things I noticed was how it felt "different" than my D80 and I first just attributed it to the lack of a vertical grip. So, I purchased a grip (went with the Neewer from Amazon).

It does make a huge difference in how the D7000 feels. I also added my version of a hand strap. It was much better than before, but not like my D80.

So after looking at it for a while, one other thing I realized, was that it was not just the depth of the grip, but also the thickness. The grip part of the vertical grip is just as shallow as the grip on the body, but it feels better (at least to me), because it is thicker.

When I naturally hold the grip on the body, there is a gap between my hand/fingers and the camera. I'm not really sure what the solution is. I hate to"stick" something to my new D7000, but it seems like "adding" something to that area would help. For instance, just fold the stock camera strap over 3-4 times and place it against the side of the body and for me it made an even bigger improvement.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Forums Lobby GET TO KNOW YOUR CAMERA & MASTER IT Nikon D7100, D7000 (Public) topic #11954 Previous topic | Next topic


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