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rasworth Basic MemberFri 10-Jun-11 06:35 PM
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"D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"


Austin, US
          

After I first received my D7000 I started a thread about vertical smear I was experiencing, both with a 16-85VR and a 55-200VR. I finally decided it was primarily a technique problem, i.e. I needed to wait longer to let the VR settle, although I was never completely convinced.

Along the way I obtained a 24-120VR f4, and have been using it as my default lens on the D7000. It works very well, to the point that I sold the 16-85. However, it is fairly large and heavy, and I decided I would obtain a used 18-105VR for casual travel use.

Long story short, with VR on or off, at 105mm the vertical smear is back. I've taken many shots, using the 1 second delay on and off, to prove to myself it is indeed vertical lens motion. I have to go to 1/320 (at any aperture) to completely suppress it, again with or without VR. At wide angles the lens works well at slow shutter speeds with VR on, and as long as I stay above 1/320 it is acceptably sharp at 105mm. The 24-120 is free of this effect, stays sharp at 120mm easily down to 1/60 with VR on.

I previously owned a D300, and saw some of this on a 70-300VR, although not on any other lens, including the 16-85. I attributed this to physics, and compensated by only shooting long with fast shutter speeds. I was pretty much resigned to the problem on my D7000, assuming the lighter body transmitted more mirror vibration to the lens, or some such phenomenon.

However I decided to try quiet mode on the D7000, and was surprised to find it seemed to kill or at least greatly reduce the effect. I assumed that quiet mode merely held the mirror up until the shutter button was released, but I did see one assessment that it also slowed the mirror rise and delayed shutter acutation slightly. In any event I will probably adopt it as my normal mode. The attached images were without and with quiet mode, ISO100, f5.6, 1/125, 105mm. I do wonder if Nikon cut it a little close on their mirror up to shutter release timing.








Richard Southworth

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rasworth Basic MemberFri 10-Jun-11 07:11 PM
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#1. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 0


Austin, US
          

Here is another comparision that shows the effect more clearly, note the specular highlights on the rock. The first image is normal mode, the second quiet. Same settings as before, except f8.

Richard Southworth






Richard Southworth

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rasworth Basic MemberFri 10-Jun-11 07:51 PM
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#3. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 1


Austin, US
          

And just in case you believe VR is the culprit, same shots again with VR off and me braced against a wall. Shutter speed is up to 1/160, getting brighter outdoors in Austin, Texas.






Richard Southworth

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Fri 10-Jun-11 07:49 PM
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#2. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 0


Yorkshire, GB
          

It is difficult to reach a firm conclusion based on your images.
As the shutter travels vertically in the window shots the "smears" are unlikely to occur "in camera".
They might be reflections of the white window frame off the sensor - especially if you use a filter.
They might also possibly be where rain water runs off the window sill.
In the rock shots the highlights might be small crystals in the rock, reflecting sunlight.
3 of the 4 pictures posted are some way from being as sharp as they might be. This makes reviewing them more difficult.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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rasworth Basic MemberFri 10-Jun-11 07:55 PM
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#4. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 2
Fri 10-Jun-11 07:57 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

Len,

No filter, and indeed the highlights in the rocks are crystals. It's the path of the specular highlights that convinces me the lens is bouncing. And how does one explain the difference between normal shutter mode and quiet mode?

Richard Southworth

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sat 11-Jun-11 04:26 PM
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#15. "RE: It did not convince me."
In response to Reply # 4


Yorkshire, GB
          

>It's the path of the specular highlights that convinces me the lens is bouncing.
There seems to be some camera movement that could cause this effect.
There is also a problem with digital in that the sensor is extremely shiny - and can reflect highlights off the sensor which then reflect back off a lens element to cause a slightly out of alignment second image.
Whilst I cannot be certain your lens does not have a fault I do suspect less than perfect technique is the most likely cause of the effects you are getting.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 04:54 PM
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#16. "RE: It did not convince me."
In response to Reply # 15


Austin, US
          

Len, please carefully read my last post, I took care to ensure my technique was not the cause. And I do not conclude my lens is faulty, I'm leaning more toward the D7000, it seems to occur with the less expensive consumer lenses. I've seen the same effect with a 55-200VR and to a lesser extent with a 16-85VR, never with my 24-120VR f4.

Trying not to jump to conclusions, but I see three possibilities:

1. I have a defective D7000

2. I have one of a group of D7000s that are within manufacturing tolerance but toward one end (mirror raise speed/dampening)

3. All D7000s exhibit the problem if "provoked", i.e. equpped with a consumer grade lens extended to maximum focal length.

All, please contribute opinions. And I would very much appreciate if some of you with similar equipment would investigate. I have done some googling, and there are others who have encountered the same problem, although it's hard to separate out whether or not it's as serious as mine or just what one would expect from mirror vibration. My next step is probably to go to Nikon, which will certainly be a tortuous process.

Richard Southworth

  

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wesmannmsu Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Mar 2011Fri 10-Jun-11 08:01 PM
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#5. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 2


US
          

Personally, I think that explanation is reaching a bit.

Although, I would like to see two images (rocks or windows) using a tripod (with and without "Q")

Visit My Website Nikon Fanboy.

  

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wesmannmsu Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Mar 2011Fri 10-Jun-11 08:03 PM
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#6. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 5


US
          

Actually, i would also like to see those images (with a tripod) with D11 on and off as well..

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rasworth Basic MemberFri 10-Jun-11 08:24 PM
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#7. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 6


Austin, US
          

Don't have time today to haul out the tripod, although at these shutter speeds I don't expect much difference. These images are both shot with the shutter in normal mode (S) and VR off, first image is with D11 set on (1 second delay from mirror up to shutter actuation) and second set off.

Something is bouncing, and I don't think it's me, I can't jiggle that fast.






Richard Southworth

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wesmannmsu Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Mar 2011Fri 10-Jun-11 09:31 PM
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#8. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 7


US
          

Personally, i am not going to be happy until it see Tripod with and without "Q"

I have had pictures that display the same sort of "shake" that didnt show up with the tripod, pretty much making it my fault..

Your likely better than I am with hand holding, but only a tripod can prove your point.

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rasworth Basic MemberFri 10-Jun-11 09:39 PM
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#9. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 8


Austin, US
          

Actually I had an email reply from one expert assuming I had used a tripod, and he suspected tripod ringing. I understand that eventually I will have to get serious with a tripod in order to convince others that I have other than an operator problem. I would love to find out it's an operator problem, but I've had it happen too many times with multiple lenses (but not all, my 24-120 f4 VR seems to be exempt) to believe such.

As an electrical engineer, I have noted that from the first set of rock images it appears the "bounce" went thru an entire cycle, and assuming about 4 ms. shutter fully open time that would equate to something over 250 hertz rate of vibration. Human beings don't resonate at that high a frequency.

Stay tuned, will add rigor to the experiments.

Richard Southworth

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 11-Jun-11 12:04 AM
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#10. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 9


Alberta, CA
          

Joining late and I hadn't seen any earlier threads if there were on this topic. Interested in hearing and seeing more.

This phenomena, does it always occur across the complete frame?

I am currently editing a high volume of photos from an event, and I noticed I have some frames with uneven sharpness left-right and not consistently so from shot to shot. I will have another look this weekend but I recall my first impression was in my case it didn't look like a lens problem. Probably unrelated, still am curious if your issue always affects the entire frame?

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 02:27 AM
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#11. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 10


Austin, US
          

Steve,

I went back and checked my images, the blurriness when it occurs is across the whole frame.

Richard Southworth

  

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KnightPhoto Gold Member Nikonian since 18th Dec 2006Sat 11-Jun-11 03:27 PM
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#12. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 11


Alberta, CA
          

Thank you very much for checking Richard!

Best regards, SteveK

'A camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.' -- Dorothea Lange
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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sat 11-Jun-11 03:29 PM
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#13. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

I'm reluctant to characterize it as a vertical smear. Your last smeared rock image looks like about a 30 degree lateral smear to me judging from the specular highlights on the rock. In one of the earlier rock images, the specular movement seemed somewhat random - more circular. Based on that, it's hard to lay the blame on mirror actuation. It's the kind of movement I'm used to seeing on pistol sights and from trigger pull. Why there would be a difference between Q mode and S mode, I can't imagine unless the unnerving (to me) nature of the Q release causes your shutter release behavior to change.

I played around with this and the only way I could detect any difference in my images was with VR on and VR off between two successive shots and it was very subtle with the VR on and Q shot being slightly softer - no clear smear though. That was single attempt and I'll attribute the difference to a random missed focus in my case.

Normal physiological tremor is unlikely as the cause as you've suggested, but motion induced my a pressing the shutter can be very rapid. But such a radical difference between shots also seems unlikely to me. Maybe continue to handhold but set the shutter release mode to timed with a delay of 2s so your finger is off the shutter release and relaxed when the shutter actuates and see if the difference is still present.

Tripod and timed or remote release is the next test. Unless you do that, you can't eliminate user contribution to the problem.


It is a mystery. Looking at it a moment, by first thought was spurious circuit path causing the sensor cleaner to activate in Q mode, but that is twilight zone stuff. Nah...





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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 04:21 PM
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#14. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 13


Austin, US
          

Ok, here we go with the tripod testing, had to wait until I had some sun to create the specular reflections on the rock. Camera is on a reasonably solid tripod, only about 3' off the ground to maximize stability. Manual focus, manual exposure control, no VR. ISO 100, f5.6, 1/125, 105mm.

First image is the total scene, second a 100% crop in Q mode, and third 100% in S mode. I did not use a remote, remember I'm comparing S and Q modes, not sure what mirror/shutter release timing exists on the remote setting. Needless to say I was very gentle on the shutter button.

Probably should not have described it as vertical smear, sometimes straight line, sometimes spread.









Richard Southworth

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Sat 11-Jun-11 05:35 PM
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#17. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 14


Yorkshire, GB
          

>Camera is on a reasonably solid tripod, only about 3' off the ground to maximize stability.
According to page 77 of the D7000 instructions the shutter firing is the same for single shot and quiet mode with either release method.
Sharpness should be the same.
The sharpness is not the same - indicating the tripod may not be as solid as you presume for the crop size.
I would experiment with exposure delay mode menu menu d11, and mirror up, taking at least 4 shots with each to get a reasonable average, before forming an opinion.
Also consider http://www.moosepeterson.com/techtips/longlens.html when not using mirror up.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 05:59 PM
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#18. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 17


Austin, US
          

Len, Page 77 does NOT imply the mirror up timing is the same for S and Q, only that each provide a single shot. I have consulted other experts who state the mirror rises more slowly in Q mode.

And I have done several shots with Mup, the results are the same as with Q mode, in some cases slightly better. And I have also used D11, check one of my previous posts.

I did a group of images with the 55-200VR (I'm the original owner, very little usage), same basic results. The first image is Mup, second image Q, and third S. Again, on a stable tripod, manual focus not changed from shot to shot, VR off, 200mm, and all manual exposure.









Richard Southworth

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sat 11-Jun-11 06:25 PM
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#19. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 18


US
          

I'd still like you to take the human out of the loop with a remote release. Obviously, timed release as I suggested above isn't possible in Q mode (duh). I'm not going to lay any blame on the tripod - looks like the same problem with or without it to me. A human adds the most variability, but I'm doubting that is the problem.

Would also like to see your shutter speed at least as fast as 1/focal length if you're finger is going to be on the shutter release.

Having said all that, I'm beginning to suspect a mechanical defect with your camera. Changing from S to Q if you're being careful about your hand holding and shutter release technique, should have negligible impact. At the speeds/focal lengths you're using, the Q shots just should not be that bad. Nonetheless, your contribution to the problem, however slight, is a variable that is easy to remove. If you still have the problem after mounting on a tripod and using a remote release I think it's time to call Nikon.

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 06:37 PM
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#20. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 19


Austin, US
          

It's the S shots that are bad, not Q. And from my research the Q mode moves the mirror up more slowly, so I would not assume negligible impact. I considered a remote, but using one on a D7000 is a different shooting mode (position on dial) and I have no way to know if the mirror timing is the same or different than with the S mode.

I can understand the reluctance to accept manual shutter release as conclusive, but I took the tripod shots within seconds of each other, the only thing that changed was spinning the dial. And please believe I carefully squeezed off each shot. Given the large sample size and the consistency of results there is no doubt in my mind but that it is equipment related, not operator caused.

What I believe forum members should now do is quit asking for more experiments and perform some of their own, trying to determine how widespread is this problem.

Richard Southworth

  

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sat 11-Jun-11 07:04 PM
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#21. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 20


US
          

A wired remote will let you use Q, S, or any other release mode except the ML-L3 release mode.

Went back and read your original post - sorry I missed the part about Q mode not being the problem - pre-coffee error I suppose.

I agree that you probably have a mechanical defect. I only suggested the remote release because it would remove all doubt, but if you don't have one, I wouldn't buy one for this purpose. Your shots should be better at the settings you're using - even with less than optimum technique.

I've already performed experiments with my camera this morning using the same camera settings you did with a couple of different lenses and as I indicated above, the results in S mode were indistinguishable from Q mode.


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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 07:24 PM
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#22. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 21


Austin, US
          

Chris,

Thanks for giving it a try, what lenses? I don't see the problem with my 24-120VR f4, just took a couple of shots (hand held) to verify. First image is Q mode at 1/100 120mm, second is S.






Richard Southworth

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sat 11-Jun-11 07:45 PM
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#23. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 22


US
          

I tried it with a 30mm 1.4 inside (because it was already mounted on the camera during my first pre-coffee glance at this thread).

Later I mounted the 18-200 and went outside. Tried it at around 100 and 200mm with and without VR, Q and S modes. If I posted the images, you wouldn't be able to pick one from the other.

It is a mystery to me that the effect varies so much from lens to lens in your case. I've never encountered a problem like that in my shooting. If I've seen motion blur in my images it has always been an expected outcome of the focal length and shutter speed I was using. I'll mount the 50-500 and give it another go to see what happens.

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 07:56 PM
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#24. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 23


Austin, US
          

Chris,

Thanks again for participating. I would think the 18-200 might be a candidate for this problem, remember the shutter speed has to be around 1/125 or so, get up to 1/320 and the effect disappears.

Yes, it's strange, I'm convinced the impulse caused by the rising mirror coming to a stop is tickling something, just not sure what.

Richard Southworth

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 11-Jun-11 08:07 PM
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#25. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 24
Sat 11-Jun-11 08:08 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

Small bit of information, found these words on the Nikon support site:

"By reducing the number of times the motor turns when the mirror is raised and lowered, we have enabled a quiet release mode that mitigates the sound of mirror collision."

Not quite sure how to interpret this info, but the implication is something different is going on wrt to mirror motion.

Richard Southworth

  

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sat 11-Jun-11 09:46 PM
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#26. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 25


US
          

Sounds like a slower mirror to me, lighter impact, less sound, probably less vibration. If you're at a marginal speed for movement/vibration effects, I suppose it might have some beneficial effect. But when you are hand-holding, your hands are doing a great job of damping mirror vibrations anyway.

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elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009Sun 12-Jun-11 02:41 AM
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#29. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 25
Sun 12-Jun-11 02:42 AM by elec164

US
          

>Not quite sure how to interpret this info, but the implication
>is something different is going on wrt to mirror motion.
>
OK, I thought I would play along.

First I will say that to my untrained ear, Quiet mode does seem to slow down (dampen??) the mirror lift.

It’s a dank dreary day here so I needed to crank the ISO up to 800 to achieve 1/125th at f/5.6 at 105mm with the 18-105 VR lens. These were taken hand held with VR on. These are 100% crops and the left image is taken with S, the middle image with Quite and the right image with Mup.




It appears I got no where near the results you did. But I will say that the S shot is a bit softer then the other two, but feel the Mup shot is a tad bit sharper then the Quiet mode. Quiet frankly I am not surprised by this result. After all the higher end cameras include a Mup mode for good reason. But all things being equal, this is pixel peeping which amounts to viewing a print about 52x34 inches at 18 inches. So unless your doing severe cropping the average person is most likely not going to perceive this minute difference in a normal sized print at normal viewing distance.

Pete


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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 01:49 PM
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#33. "RE: How solid is "solid"."
In response to Reply # 29


Austin, US
          

Pete,

I just now read your post, thanks for trying. As you stated, your S shot is softer, but certainly not to the extent of mine. If nothing else maybe this thread will convince people to use the Q mode to gain some degree of acuity.

I did find on another forum a thread detailing experience similar to mine, and in addition the poster had tried two different D7000s. Still not enough to declare an epidemic, although interesting. After 32 years in r&d I can easily believe the Nikon engineering group was under pressure from marketing to maximize fps on the D7000, and might have cut it a little close on the mirror up/shutter acutation timing. And yes, I know that is being overly skeptical, but so be it.

Richard Southworth

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Sun 12-Jun-11 01:09 AM
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#27. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 0


US
          

Richard,

What tripod and head did you use for that part of your tests?

_________________________________
Neil


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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 02:17 AM
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#28. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 27


Austin, US
          

Nothing fancy, old large aluminum leg tripod, only partially extended. No head, camera bolted directly to base. It was stable, on a tile surface. Reason for your question?

Richard Southworth

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Sun 12-Jun-11 09:59 AM
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#30. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 28


US
          

I asked because it is an important piece of information. None of the results you posted are unexpected, except for the degree of blur relative to the shutter speeds and focal length. But most of the images were hand held and we are not you and we cannot evaluate your hand held technique.

A tripod can be a great leveler and remove all or most of that uncertainty. However, there is a huge spread of what people consider "rock solid" and in many cases what people call "rock solid" I would not even consider using. That was the reason for my question.

Don't take that personally. I don't know you. I only know that what passes for "rock solid" frequently isn't.

Unfortunately your answer doesn't help (me) understand your problem. Just because it is big and maybe heavy does not necessarily make it solid by my definition and does not help determine what it's characteristics would be, especially at 200mm.

There is another current thread in this forum discussing the fact that another shooter here saw subtle signs of mirror slap on his D7000 at 70mm and 1/125s or so. Same as you, except maybe the degree of blur.

Here is an example (see upper left) of mirror slap in S mode that resulted in a 45 degree angle bur, not an up and down blur. So that is not unusual. However, those images were shot at 500mm and 1/10 to 1/15s. I've only seen that 45 degree blur in somewhat extreme cases of underpowered tripods. Your cases were shot hand held so that is impossible for someone else to evaluate. And as Chris pointed out, hand holding likely removes most or all mirror slap- but adds a totally unpredictable type of blur.

Here is an example showing mirror slap in S mode at 200mm using known high quality carbon fiber tripods, which have better dampening characteristics than aluminum. But again, the difference is in the degree and the shutter speeds.

The fact that you have had this problem with 3 different lenses - assuming I evaluated your posts correctly - removes the lens from the problem. You just don't hear about lenses with defects that cause parts to rattle around and create unusually blurred images. It is highly unlikely you own 3 of those rare to nonexistent beasts.

That leaves your technique (and your tripod) or the camera. Process of elimination. If it's the camera then a known tripod considered to be stable by others would get to the bottom of this.

And that's why I asked .

_________________________________
Neil


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TakeTwo Silver Member Nikonian since 26th Jul 2009Mon 13-Jun-11 02:16 AM
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#57. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 30
Mon 13-Jun-11 02:20 AM by TakeTwo

South Lake Tahoe, US
          

>The fact that you have had this problem with 3 different
>lenses - assuming I evaluated your posts correctly - removes
>the lens from the problem. You just don't hear about lenses
>with defects that cause parts to rattle around and create
>unusually blurred images. It is highly unlikely you own 3 of
>those rare to nonexistent beasts.
>
>That leaves your technique (and your tripod) or the camera.
>Process of elimination. If it's the camera then a known
>tripod considered to be stable by others would get to the
>bottom of this.
>
>And that's why I asked


I notice all your images are cropped in portrait. Have you considered shooting in landscape mode to see if your camera shake rotated with camera orientation. Don

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Sun 12-Jun-11 11:38 AM
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#31. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 28


US
          

A couple more observations.

1. My interpretation is that you are not getting a full cycle of blur. You are getting a quarter to a half cycle of a full "sine wave", which is what mirror slap looks like, given enough shutter time. That implies a cycle of about 30-120 hz, not 250.

2. In all but one case there is a horizontal component to the blur, likely biasing the blur to the right, implying the camera moved left.

3. Your two tripod shots in S mode have two distinctly different blurs. The first shot has horizontal and vertical components, the second only vertical. Now, if you have removed all external influences (you, the wind, etc) from the tripod/camera system then I can assure you that the results would be absolutely consistent given the same shutter speed and focal length and here that is very approximately true. And I say that having shot many hundreds of test shots on tripods, looking at various support issues.

That suggests your shutter button press *may* not be as gentle as you think. If you do not have a remote release then I would suggest you add a 10s (no less!) self timer delay to your S mode shots. The self timer timer is an S mode shot (assuming no added exposure delay mode) with a delay between shutter press and the initiation of "S mode".

You are an engineer. Think like an engineer solving a problem. Remove *all* possible variables. Most importantly remove yourself from the equation. Only when you completely understand the machine should you add yourself back in.

I'd still like to know exactly what tripod you used. Your profile says "Bogen/Manfrotto". Does the tripod have a name plate or model#? If you did not use a head, did you just twirl the camera onto the presumably 1/4-20 stud sticking up from the head platform? A picture or two might be helpful, one showing the full tripod, the other a closeup of the mount and upper leg joints.

_________________________________
Neil


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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 01:24 PM
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#32. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 31
Sun 12-Jun-11 01:32 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

The point you're missing, wrt to the tripod shots, is that the S and Q (as well as Mup) shots were taken seconds apart, with the same press on the shutter release, with no other changes to the camera, and repeated many times. I guess one could postulate a tripod resonance or some such, which would have to be excited from the S impulse and not from the Q, but that is stretching it to say the least. And I don't agree that hand-holding provides much in the way of damping for the internals of the camera and lens, not for relatively high frequency events, be they 30hz or 250.

I'm aware the pattern changes, the most predominant one is the straight line at a diaganol, with occasional variations. So yes, I do think like an engineer, and have tried other experiments not detailed in the posts. Over and over again, by doing nothing more than switching from S to Q, I've had the same results.

At this point I'm no longer looking for "validation" from the forum, I'm through experimenting, and have begun talking to Nikon. So far I've had one member who actually tried duplicating my experience, and many more that seem determined to nit-pick the methodology. Again I ask for any of you with either the 18-105 or 55-200 to give it a shot, see if there is anything going on other than one person's possibly defective equipment.

Added by edit - the tripod used was a several year old (30+) Daiwa SV, dug out from deep in the closet, with only the mid-section extended and no head. I didn't use my Gitzo because it was one of the very lightweight models. I sold the Bogen.

Richard Southworth

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 12-Jun-11 02:22 PM
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#34. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 32


Paignton, GB
          

>At this point I'm no longer looking for "validation"
>from the forum, I'm through experimenting, and have begun
>talking to Nikon.

Or, to put it another way (and admittedly playing devil's advocate), you've made your mind up about this problem and don't want to hear ideas which might take you in a different direction...

Neil's comments and questions appear to me to be quite relevant to your investigation; I would think about them a bit more if I were you.

Brian
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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 02:55 PM
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#36. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 34
Sun 12-Jun-11 03:21 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

Brian,

No, contrary to public opinion I have not made up my mind. Mostly I've had my fill of "devil's advocates", looking now for real participation. And also looking for opinions from members who have read thru all my posts and examined the images, laborious task though that may be.

Here's another sequence from the 18-105, on the suspect tripod, all manual, VR off. Sequence is Mup, Q, S. Again, all shot within seconds of each other, only action was to spin the shooting method dial. Of course, for the S mode I did use a hammer for shutter release (hopefully this is recognized as sarcasm).

Added by edit - BTW I'm not claiming I've discovered the mirror slap effect, my issue is with the degree of movement, not that it exists.








Richard Southworth

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 12-Jun-11 03:34 PM
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#37. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 36


Paignton, GB
          

>And also looking for
>opinions from members who have read thru all my posts and
>examined the images, laborious task though that may be.

Well, that's what you got from me. My opinion (which you are free to ignore) is that one should try hard to eliminate all possible variables before approaching Nikon with any problem.

Brian
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kentak Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2010Sun 12-Jun-11 05:28 PM
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#40. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 36


US
          

Richard,

Please get a surplus battleship anchor, epoxy your camera to it, place a couple of 50 lb. sandbags on top and repeat your tests.

Thanks.

Kent

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 05:33 PM
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#41. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 40


Austin, US
          

Chris,

I'm convinced you don't have the problem, thanks for the extra effort.

kentak,

That's next on my list (NOT).

Richard Southworth

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 05:47 PM
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#42. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 41


Austin, US
          

Does anybody on the forum have detailed knowledge as to the construction of the VR subsystem on various Nikon lenses?

Specifically, are the movable elements restrained/clamped in some manner when camera/lens power is on but VR is turned off? Or are they returned to centered position but not actually restricted other than by their suspension? And of course the next question is whatever the restraint means is it constant across all VR lenses?

Yes, I'm on a speculative witch hunt, looking for something "springy" enough in the camera/lens combination that could account for the relatively high movement frequency observed in my images.

Richard Southworth

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 12-Jun-11 05:52 PM
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#43. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 42


Paignton, GB
          

I believe (though I can't point you at anything official from Nikon off the top of my head) that the VR group of elements is "locked" into the neutral position when VR is not switched on. If so, unless the mechanism is faulty - unlikely in your case because it seems to happen with multiple lenses - this probably isn't the cause of the "smearing".

Brian
Welsh Nikonian

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 06:15 PM
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#44. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 43


Austin, US
          

I believe "locked" can be relative when looking for very small movements. I couldn't find anything on the Nikon site as to my question. I'm mostly curious to understand the difference between the less expensive consumer grade lens type and those more up the scale. I would assume without more specific info that the VR (not II) technology in the 18-105 and the 55-200 is similar and less expensive, and perhaps more susceptible to some sort of impulse from the mirror motion/stopping.

This is strictly uninformed speculation, so no editorial comments from anybody are required to point out the obvious. And I'm not aiming this at you, Brian, just trying to forestall such posts.

Richard Southworth

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 12-Jun-11 06:32 PM
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#45. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 44


Paignton, GB
          

To continue a little further with some uninformed speculation, I think it's very unlikely that unwanted movement of the VR group in a correctly-operating lens, when VR is switched off, is causing your unsharpness - if this were a widespread problem, we would certainly have heard a LOT more about it before now.

Brian
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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 07:14 PM
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#46. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 45
Sun 12-Jun-11 07:17 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

I'm not claiming this is a widespread problem, already had one forum member demonstrate that his 18-105VR on a D7000 produced only a marginally worse image in S than in Q. All I know is my D7000 seems to "hammer" in S mode, trying to gain some understanding as to why it affects some lenses and not others.

I did dig out a 28-105 f3.5-4.5 D and fired off five shots in S mode at the rock, shutter speed set to 1/125, 105mm, hand held with me firmly braced against a brick wall. No problems, all images were sharp. Simple lens, apparently nothing in it to go squirrely.

At this point I can only place my 18-105VR and 55-200VR into the susceptible group, my past remembrances wrt the 16-85VR are fuzzy, and when I went back and reviewed my previous thread it had to do with VR on and off, and obviously I had not done much to pin down the effect. I had just received the D7000, and the last thing I wanted was to find some flaw, so after I had some good results I declared it an operator problem and didn't pursue further. Soon after that I obtained the 24-120VR, fell in love with it, and sold the 16-85.

Richard Southworth

  

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sun 12-Jun-11 08:24 PM
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#47. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 46


US
          

I never had the impression my D7000 was "hammering" is S mode. I seem to recall being surprised at how soft the mirror/shutter actuation seemed to be. Unfortunately, I gave my D200 to my step daughter last week and now can't compare. Have you had an opportunity to try your lenses on another D7000 to see if the problem persists?

On a side note, I found this interesting video while searching for similar concerns:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/sLZqUJZ9ruw

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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 08:39 PM
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#48. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 47
Sun 12-Jun-11 08:42 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

I didn't mean hammering in terms of the sound, only the suspected effect on my lenses. No, I haven't tried my lenses on another D7000. Hard to tell, but my D7000 sounds pretty much like the video. I remember thinking it was less noisy than my D300, but like you the other camera is gone and I can't compare.

Added by edit - I raised the shutter speed using the 18-105VR to determine at what point the effect in S mode disappeared, it was still apparent at 1/250 and completely gone at 1/320.

Richard Southworth

  

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briantilley Moderator Deep knowledge of bodies and lens; high level photography skills Nikonian since 26th Jan 2003Sun 12-Jun-11 09:20 PM
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#49. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 46


Paignton, GB
          

>I'm not claiming this is a widespread problem

I understand that - but you seemed to be wondering if some VR lenses might be susceptible to unsharpness caused by unwanted movement of the VR group. I believe that to be most unlikely, because surely we would have heard at least some reports of such problems in the 11 years since VR was launched.

Brian
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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 09:59 PM
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#52. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 49


Austin, US
          

Brian,

I tend to agree with you, although these two lenses in question are relatively recent. Their susceptibility may not have been exposed by earlier camera bodies, maybe the D7000 is the first to "push" timing limits. Or maybe not. All I know is what I've experienced and detailed in this thread.

It's also possible that the problem is somewhat more widespread than just me, perhaps masquerading as soft focus or similar. I do have a picture from another forum, with a S and Q picture side by side, showing definite softness on the S version.

Richard Southworth

  

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kentak Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd Jul 2010Mon 13-Jun-11 01:43 AM
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#55. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 41
Mon 13-Jun-11 01:51 AM by kentak

US
          

Just to add another data point for your consideration. The following were shot with a 18-105 at 105 on a D7000 on a tripod (12 lb. weight attached) on a concrete basement floor. 1/100 at f/5.6. VR off, manual focus (after initial autofocus). Subject was paint can label at just under 10 feet. Cable release. 100% crops.

From first to last, the modes are S, Q, and Mup.










Kent

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sun 12-Jun-11 02:40 PM
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#35. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 32
Sun 12-Jun-11 03:57 PM by ChrisPlatt

US
          

Ok, I couldn't do this yesterday afternoon because a storm rolled in. I mounted my 18-200, ISO 100, 105mm, 1/100, F20 (not much choice if I was going to set speed to 1/100 on this bright morning). VR Off.

I took 8 shots with the same setting switching back and forth from S to Q all handheld. There is a lot of variation as expected considering the method and settings. The counter intuitive aspect of this is that the Q images tend not to be as good as the S images. I find Q to be a really unnerving setting and it throws my technique off, so I'm not surprised by the results here.

The scene:



Hand held crops:



Edit: Took the human out of the loop. 5540 tripod, Z1, Photix remote, ISO 100, F20, 105mm (Some softness attributable to stepping boldly past diffraction limit). I'm just not seeing differing effects of mirror movement/slap and really wouldn't expect to at 1/100 and 105mm - especially hand-held.

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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 04:10 PM
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#38. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 35


Austin, US
          

Chris,

Thanks for the effort. How about trying the 18-200 at 200mm? And I've not claimed that all lenses react the same to S vs. Q, no longer own an 18-200 so I can't test on my camera.

Richard Southworth

  

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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sun 12-Jun-11 04:15 PM
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#39. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 38
Sun 12-Jun-11 05:11 PM by ChrisPlatt

US
          

Ok Will test at 200 mm. Here is a MUP reference shot at 105mm. 100% and 200% crops.








Ok, 200mm. 1/100, f/16, tripod, remote release, just switched back and forth from S to Q. Hot part of the day - looks like convection currents between land/water contributing to the result now. Diffraction, convection, extreme limit of 18-200 focal length, 100% crop. Don't blame these soft images on the D7000!



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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Sun 12-Jun-11 09:22 PM
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#50. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 32


US
          

>> And I don't agree that hand-holding provides much in the way of damping for the internals of the camera and lens, not for relatively high frequency events, be they 30hz or 250.

If you want a tuning fork to sing, you hold it by it's handle. If you want to deaden it you hold it by the ends of the arms. Cameras work the same way. Especially collared lenses, which behave exactly like tuning forks. Collarless lenses a little less so but the same principle. Collarless lenses are similar to one armed tuning forks, which will sing albeit less efficiently.

I demonstrate here how even bad long lens technique (machine gun style) can beat S mode on a good tripod. S Mode is evil when used with very long lenses. I don't understand your results because 100mm at 1/100s should not require rocket science and I suspect your results are atypical, even on a 16mpx sensor.

I'll bow out now because I don't have the gear you are seeking for comparative tests.

_________________________________
Neil


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rasworth Basic MemberSun 12-Jun-11 09:50 PM
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#51. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 50


Austin, US
          

No argument wrt vibration of the lens casing, I'm assuming the problem lies within the lens. It certainly may be a false assumption, but I don't believe the grasp on the camera body or lens exterior would dampen all impulses transmitted within the casing.

Richard Southworth

  

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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Sun 12-Jun-11 10:33 PM
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#53. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 51


Chicago, US
          

Instead of going back and forth about this, take you camera and lenses to a service center and have them checked on an optical bench. Then you will know if it is the camera/lens combination or another issue.

Remember as the lens focal length get large, everything is magnified including body movements. So many need to refine and improve their hand holding technique to include changes in foot position, breath control, awayness of ones heart beat, how the shutter is released and even what was eaten or drunk before the shooting session.

George
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ChrisPlatt Silver Member Nikonian since 04th Jun 2011Sun 12-Jun-11 11:48 PM
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#54. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 53


US
          

What intrigues me about this thread, is that whether Richard's technique is good or bad or whether he uses a tripod or not, he is getting widely divergent results by simply switching back and forth between S and Q shooting modes while everything else is held constant.

If his hand holding technique is bad, both Q and S should be equally bad, but they're not. His technique - whether good or bad, is a constant. IMO, at the focal lengths and shutter speeds he has been using, I would not expect mirror slap/vibration to have that great an impact - especially considering that there is still mirror activity in both modes - just slightly more dampened in one. That's why I'm mystified that switching to Q mode is resulting in such an obvious improvement. I have not been able to duplicate that outcome by shooting with the same settings he has been using. Q and S modes in my shots are nearly indistinguishable, as I would expect them to be.

That's why I also am wondering if there is some mechanical anomaly with either his lenses or the mirror actuation on his camera.


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gkaiseril Gold Member Nikonian since 28th Oct 2005Mon 13-Jun-11 02:06 AM
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#56. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 54


Chicago, US
          

And that is why I posted he should get a service center to check the camera and lenses.

Some pro shooters are still learning how to improve their technique as the cameras get more sophisticated.

George
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rasworth Basic MemberMon 13-Jun-11 02:28 AM
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#58. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 56


Austin, US
          

George,

Obviously at some point I will have to have the camera/lenses checked, I have started a process with Nikon. However, I believe that anybody who carefully reviews all of my posts should conclude that there is some sort of equipment problem, it is very unlikely to be operator error, more sophisticated cameras to the contrary.

The "back and forth" posts were admitted speculation as to the cause, extent, etc., and were always qualified as such. I am firmly convinced the degree of movement exhibited by the combination of my D7000 and the two lenses in S mode is clearly out of bounds. The question that remains is why, and I will certainly work to answer. In the meantime I am a Q mode devotee.

Richard Southworth

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Mon 13-Jun-11 08:27 AM
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#60. "RE:An issue"
In response to Reply # 54


Yorkshire, GB
          

>What intrigues me about this thread, is that whether Richard's technique is good or bad or whether he uses a tripod
>or not, he is getting widely divergent results by simply switching back and forth between S and Q shooting modes while
>everything else is held constant.
An issue when trying to help somebody like Richard is trying to identify a likely source.
We have shots of out of focus windows, shots of out somewhat out of focus rocks, and an expectation meaningful conclusions can be drawn by cropping 4900 pixels down to about 75 pixels and magnifying the result. In addition at least 2 of the image sets is capable of inducing AF system misfocus.
Better quality information could help.
Vibrations within the lens can be ruled out - because the lens does not know if S or Q is in use.
As I said earlier all Q does is delay mirror down until the finger is removed from the shutter. As the picture is taken when the shutter closes I do not see how Q might induce extra vibration during the exposure.
I am not saying the camera does not have a fault - but in theory it cannot have a fault that would cause this effect.
Commenting further is difficult without images taken using good technique.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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elec164 Silver Member Nikonian since 15th Jan 2009Mon 13-Jun-11 01:19 PM
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#61. "RE:An issue"
In response to Reply # 60


US
          

>As I said earlier all Q does is delay mirror down until the
>finger is removed from the shutter.

I have nothing but empirical data, but it does seem that the mirror in Q mode is dampened or slowed down which would reduce micro vibrations from the impact of the mirror hitting the stop. The laws of physics would dictate that an object of a certain mass moving at a faster speed would cause greater impact than the same mass moving slower therefore less vibration introduced.

My amateurish test results seem to suggest this is true. My S mode was not quite as sharp as the Q mode. And the Q mode was not quite as sharp as Mup. This seems to suggest that the mirror is hitting the stop harder in S mode causing more vibration than Q mode. And the reduced impact of Q mode still seems to introduce some vibration that is totally eliminated with a 5 second delay after the mirror is raised up before firing the shutter.

Perhaps Richard can provide us the link to the Nikon support site that states the fewer motor revolutions when raising the mirror in Quiet mode that he quoted earlier.

Pete

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rasworth Basic MemberMon 13-Jun-11 01:30 PM
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#62. "Q"
In response to Reply # 60


Austin, US
          

Len,

You are incorrect, the mirror is moved more slowly both up and down in the Quiet shooting method. Here is the link:

http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/17294/~/what-is-quiet-shutter--release-mode%3F

and here is the quote from the above:

"By reducing the number of times the motor turns when the mirror is raised and lowered, we have enabled a quiet release mode that mitigates the sound of mirror collision. Very useful when trying to capture pictures of sleeping babies, or pets, or at (normally quiet) concerts, dance recitals, or shows.

This is an option found in the D7000, D5000, D3100, and D3000 cameras."

This is a somewhat awkward translation, but clearly they're referring to the mirror motor rpm decreasing. And it's S that causes the problem, not Q as you stated.

Richard Southworth

  

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rasworth Basic MemberMon 13-Jun-11 01:43 PM
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#63. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 62
Mon 13-Jun-11 01:46 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

BTW there is a thread running on DP Review describing the same issue I have:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1034&thread=38545083&page=1

It's a long thread and contains a lot of "noise", but toward the end there seems to be some credible work, illustrating the improvement obtained with the Q shooting method.

Again, I'm not claiming there is an epidemic or inherent flaw in the D7000, just that for mine and apparently some others the S mode causes significant image blurring with selected lenses.

Richard Southworth

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Mon 13-Jun-11 02:02 PM
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#64. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 62


US
          

There is a fundamental conflict in SLR type camera design in that a fast mirror creates noise and vibration since noise and vibration are both dissipated energy from the impact of the mirror on the two mirror damping bumpers (the "up" bumper and the "return" bumper).

A slow mirror creates "shutter lag" and would reduce the potential frames per second in Cl and Ch modes. You could make a virtually noiseless DSLR but it would have shutter lag on the order of a P&S camera. Q mode is probably a compromise between S and and full P&S shutter lag performance.

(I know that P&S cameras do not have mechanical shutters and are slow for other reasons but the effect on the "shutter performance" would be approximately the same.)

Given the above, it makes sense that Q mode would result in both a lagging performance and somewhat less mirror slap vibration, which I think is what un-nerved Chris in his tests. It's probably similar to the exposure delay mode which throws me off stride when I unintentionally use it hand held. That lagging performance in Q mode would reduce audible noise and physical vibration.

It would be fully expected that in a controlled test the most to least vibration would occur in S, Q and then Mup mode.

There is said to be a lot of engineering in the mirror bumper dampening mechanism. The purpose of that dampener is to reduce mirror slap as much as possible. It is certainly conceivable that Richard's camera has a defective "dampener".

It is also possible that if that is the case his "shutter noise", which is mainly mirror noise, *could* be louder or sound different than another D7000. Or maybe not. But if it does sound different (louder/sharper/whatever) that might be a clue.

Operating the camera in Mup mode with a LONG SHUTTER SPEED, the first shutter press is purely mirror (up) slap. The second shutter press is purely shutter opening noise at the start of the exposure and then both shutter close and then mirror (return) slap at the end of the exposure. The mirror return slap is not meaningful to the image except in Ch or Cl mode, or a rapid fire S mode. This would all be very obvious in roughly a 5s or longer delay. If I had Richard's camera and another D7000 (without symptoms of his problem) this is how I would try to test for audible differences.

I would do the same slow shutter speed Mup test in Q mode to try to verify what I'm suggesting by listening to audible clues. I did something similar when I got my first LiveView camera and figured out exactly what is going on with the mirror, which is flipping up and down twice before the exposure and then a third time at the conclusion of the exposure. LiveView creates far worse vibration than S mode because it is very similar to the effect of shooting Ch mode, with the mirror flipping back and forth in rapid succession.

_________________________________
Neil


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rasworth Basic MemberMon 13-Jun-11 03:09 PM
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#65. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 64
Mon 13-Jun-11 03:18 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

Neil,

Interesting experiment, which I performed. I inserted my hearing aids to give me better high frequency capability (too many years of loud cars, lawn mowers, etc. with no hearing protection). Set the camera to a 4 second exposure, and alternated between S and Q. I couldn't discern much difference in the intial impact noise, but there is a very distinct qualitative difference, as follows:

1. S shooting method results in a single impact sound at the beginning and end.

2. Q shooting method has two separated sounds at shutter release, which I assume are the mirror stop and the front curtain actuation. There are also two distinct sounds at the end of the cycle, although the two at the end merge at normal shutter speeds, still very quiet.

Nikon's only statement is the mirror rises and falls more slowly in Q, but I would venture a guess that there is also increased delay before the front curtain release.

Added by edit - addressed wrong person, corrected

Richard Southworth

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Mon 13-Jun-11 04:47 PM
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#66. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 65


US
          

>> 2. Q shooting method has two separated sounds at shutter release, which I assume are the mirror stop and the front curtain actuation.

If you have not already done so, you might remove the lens and watch the action in the mirror box as you press the shutter button. That may clarify things unless it happens too quickly.

The only reason I can of to add a delay is that it may be that two separated sounds are "quieter" than if they are more or less simultaneous (or more accurately consecutive but fast enough to blend together in the brain as a continuous sound).

_________________________________
Neil


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rasworth Basic MemberMon 13-Jun-11 05:12 PM
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#67. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 66


Austin, US
          

Tough to tell, it's easier to hear the separation than see it, but I do believe there is a slight delay after the mirror rises before the shutter actuates in Q.

One thing for sure, in S mode there are 4 (or maybe 5 if the shutter reset counts) mechanical events occurring in a short enough time period to seem like a single noise.

Richard Southworth

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Tue 14-Jun-11 06:20 AM
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#69. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 62


Yorkshire, GB
          

>the mirror is moved more slowly both up and down in the Quiet shooting method. Here is the link:
>http://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/17294/~/what-is-quiet-shutter--release-mode%3F
Thanks for your link - lets say the jury is out as the Nikon UK guidance is as in the D7000 instruction book
https://nikoneurope-en.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/27451/kw/Quiet%20mode/session/L3RpbWUvMTMwODAzMTc4OS9zaWQvOE9rY1lzd2s%3D
This aside if the mirror raise motor turns more slowly in Q mode (which it well might) there is less mirror up camera shake, so the OP should not get the reported problem.
As the shutter blades need to move at specific speeds to achieve correct exposure Q mode is unlikely to reduce shutter vibration.
As already mentioned delayed mirror return does not affect image sharpness.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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rasworth Basic MemberTue 14-Jun-11 01:37 PM
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#70. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 69
Tue 14-Jun-11 01:38 PM by rasworth

Austin, US
          

Len,

No, the jury is not out:

1. The D7000 was announced September 2010.

2. The UK reference is dated June 2009.

3. The Nikon reference is dated March 2011, and includes a specific reference to the D7000.

And once again, my problem occurs only in S mode, I have reported that I have no problem in Q.

Richard Southworth

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Wed 15-Jun-11 07:09 AM
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#71. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 70


Yorkshire, GB
          

>And once again, my problem occurs only in S mode, I have reported
1/ in some circumstances Q may well produce less vibration.
My preferred route es exposure delay - because all my Nikon bodies have it.
2/ I do not think anybody is disputing you might have a specific camera body issue. The point I, and a few others, have made is it helps to work from images using a good level of photographic technique to help eliminate the many possible variables.
Variables can include the tripod or shutter release technique which Q might control better than S.
If you find a method that works better for you on a tripod for static subjects using Q seems the solution for you.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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rasworth Basic MemberWed 15-Jun-11 12:58 PM
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#73. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 71


Austin, US
          

Len,

Yes, I understand you have reservations about my technique, even implying that my experiments are so flawed that "Q seems the solution for you" as opposed to Q is the solution for my D7000.

So here's my question to you - I see that you have a D7000 and a stable of lenses. Within that stable do you own a 18-105VR or a 55-200VR, or can you borrow one of these lenses, and do your own comparison between Q and S? Or would you rather just be a critic with no effort expended?

Richard Southworth

  

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Len Shepherd Gold Member Nikonian since 09th Mar 2003Wed 15-Jun-11 09:20 PM
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#74. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 73


Yorkshire, GB
          

>So here's my question to you - I see that you have a D7000 and a stable of lenses. Within that stable do you own a 18-105VR
>or a 55-200VR, or can you borrow one of these lenses, and do your own comparison between Q and S?
The nearest lens I own is the 18-200 - no problems with this or other lightweight lenses like the 12-24 and 50mm f1.8 D on the D7000.
Camera induced vibration is likely to show more at the longest focal length and minimum focus distance because the greater image magnification magnifies camera induced vibration.

Photography is a bit like archery. A technically better camera, lens or arrow may not hit the target as often as it could if the photographer or archer does not practice enough.

Len Shepherd

  

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rasworth Basic MemberMon 20-Jun-11 09:08 PM
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#75. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 74


Austin, US
          

Sent three sets of images to Nikon before they decided I should send in the body. I plan to use it on vacation, won't be shipped to Nikon until late July. I'll let the forum know the results.

Richard Southworth

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 30-Jul-11 05:08 PM
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#77. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 75


Austin, US
          

D7000 is at Nikon El Segundo, status "In Shop", category B2 which means "Moderate Repair - Major Parts Required".

Stay tuned,

Richard Southworth

  

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rasworth Basic MemberFri 12-Aug-11 03:39 PM
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#78. "Q"
In response to Reply # 77


Austin, US
          

Ok, camera is back from Nikon, repairs outside of check and clean were "Repair SC 201564", so I assume something was replaced.

Was the problem fixed? Short answer, maybe a little. Still shows a difference between S and Q shooting methods with the 18-105VR.

Test setup:
Gitzo partially extended
Acratech head
MC-DC2 remote (yes, I bought one just to forestall comments)
Manual exposure
Manual focus
VR off
SS 1/125, f5.6, ISO to center exposure.

All images are straight out of ACR with NO sharpening, so remember these are 100% crops when judging sharpness.

First two images are using the 18-105VR, S and Q modes. I believe the S mode may be somewhat improved vs. before repair, but not much.

Second two images are using the 24-120VR, S and Q modes. Very little difference if any. Also did a liveview with the 24-120 to check autofocus, again no discernable difference.

Conclusion - the 24-120 is a better lens (no surprise), my copy of the 18-105 on my D7000 produces sharper images at 1/125 in Q. Before I sent the lens to Nikon I shot several hundred images in Europe with the 18-105 in Q mode, virtually no poor focus results.

I don't plan to experiment further, the camera is probably as good as it gets right now, I just won't use my 18-105VR (and my 55-200VR) lenses in other than Q mode. I still suspect there is some sort of combo problem between these lenses and some small number of D7000s, but without obtaining other bodies and/or other lenses I doubt that I'll ever know for sure.












Richard Southworth

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Fri 12-Aug-11 09:36 PM
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#79. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 78


US
          

Here are two images I just shot, reproducing your gear and processing as much as I can. These were shot at 105mm with a 105/2.8 AF-D micro. I also shot the images with a slow 24-120 VR, with more or less the same results but this lens is far sharper and better shows the differences.

The first image is shot with Mirror Up, the second in S mode. I don't have a Q mode.

These are NEFs processed in CaptureNX to remove all sharpening in order to emulate your procedure as close as possible for comparison purposes. Crops of original pixels; the chart was shot at a calibrated distance. I would sharpen the images with "normal" sharpening myself but that's just a personal opinion.

Your camera has more resolution than mine. Mine is heavier and I left my grip on. Your lens likely weighs more than my pair. All could create variances from your situation.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you look close enough (100% crops of test charts) you WILL find evidence of mirror slap in S mode at 1/125s. If you are looking for a lens and/or DSLR body that doesn't need a mirror delay for perfect images it likely does not exist.

Given that it is perfectly reasonable to expect some mirror slap at that shutter speed and focal length I'm not sure what you are concerned about. The amount of blur is only a question of degree. These are the most relevant samples I could post with my gear. If I want a perfectly sharp image I use Mup. I don;t use S mode. And because of that it's difficult to get too excited about these images.

The only thing interesting with your images is some indication of lateral blur, which I would not expect at 105-120mm. But there is also obvious vertical blur, which is entirely expected to some degree.

D300 105mm f/2.8 AF-D Micro-Nikkor
Gitzo G1228 Markins M10
1/125s f/5.6 ISO 400
Mirror Up Mode




D300 105mm f/2.8 AF-D Micro-Nikkor
Gitzo G1228 Markins M10
1/125s f/5.6 ISO 400
S Mode

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 13-Aug-11 02:07 AM
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#80. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 79


Austin, US
          

Neil,

The issue was not that there was blurring, it was always a matter of degree, and the fact that it was significantly worse on two lenses in S mode.

You participated earlier in the thread, I'm not sure what your point is now. In any event I am through with this subject, my D7000 is a good camera, and I only added my last post to provide closure info after Nikon had serviced the camera.

Richard Southworth

  

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nrothschild Silver Member Neil is an expert in several areas, including camera support Nikonian since 25th Jul 2004Sat 13-Aug-11 07:31 AM
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#81. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 80


US
          

I wasn't sure what your point was, either. I got the impression you were unhappy with the results but resigned to accept it, I guess, for lack of alternatives.

_________________________________
Neil


my Nikonians gallery.

  

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rasworth Basic MemberSat 13-Aug-11 01:05 PM
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#82. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 81


Austin, US
          

That pretty well sums it up. I remain convinced there is a "weakness" in the camera and/or the two lenses, but the Q shooting method gives me a work-around, and I'm not willing to pursue the matter further.

Richard Southworth

  

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jamtins Silver Member Nikonian since 03rd May 2011Wed 15-Jun-11 12:47 PM
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#72. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 70


Meadow Heights, AU
          

Hi richard,



There is an interesting piece of video highspeed here. Just don't look at the Canon ones.
<ggg>

http://www.petapixel.com/2011/04/08/canon-and-nikon-mirrors-and-shutters-slowed-down/

I do hope you can track it down.

DJ

.. I set out to discover the inventions of God. -John Muir

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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Crowndog Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Jun 2011Tue 21-Jun-11 08:15 PM
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#76. "RE: Q"
In response to Reply # 72


US
          

Haven't read entire post but perhaps you live in a geographically unstable region? Any small earthquakes recently. You can check that out online. That would change "Rock stable". So would cars moving by if you had sewer pipes running below, water mains etc. I used to do holography and you would be very surprised as to what really goes on in our enviroment, particularly at lower freqs. Just saying.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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dm1dave Administrator Awarded for high level knowledge and skills in various areas, most notably in Wildlife and Landscape Nikonian since 12th Sep 2006Sat 13-Aug-11 02:44 PM
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#83. "RE: D7000 lens whip? Quiet mode?"
In response to Reply # 0


Lowden, US
          

This thread seems to have run its course. I will lock it now.

Dave Summers
Lowden, Iowa
Nikonians Photo Contest Director

Nikonians membership -
"My most important photographic investment, after the camera"

My Nikonians Gallery | SummersPhotoGraphic.com
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