Go to a  "printer friendly" view of this message which allow an easy print Printer-friendly copy Go to the page which allows you to send this topic link and a message to a friend Email this topic to a friend
Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS - Hardware & Software Digital postprocessing & workflow (Public) Adobe postprocessing software (Public) topic #14203
View in linear mode

Subject: "Beginning LR Question" Previous topic | Next topic
mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Sun 06-Apr-14 12:52 AM
6054 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
"Beginning LR Question"


Tacoma, US
          

If I import images into LR by having NEFs converted to DNGs, then edit the DNG in LR, how do I have the results of those edits visible when looking at the DNG in another program, like Photo Mechanic? (I am also exporting the edited image to a JPG, which, of course, does show the final result.)

Mick
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
Online gallery: http://mickklass.gallery
My nikonians gallery

Puget Sound Chapter Coordinator
Visit Our Gallery

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: Beginning LR Question
walkerr Administrator
06th Apr 2014
1
Reply message RE: Beginning LR Question
mklass Platinum Member
06th Apr 2014
2
     Reply message RE: Beginning LR Question
walkerr Administrator
06th Apr 2014
3
          Reply message save as tiff or DNG?
Shene Silver Member
29th Apr 2014
4
               Reply message RE: save as tiff or DNG?
mklass Platinum Member
29th Apr 2014
5
                    Reply message RE: save as tiff or DNG?
walkerr Administrator
29th Apr 2014
6
                         Reply message RE: save as tiff or DNG?
Bob Chadwick Silver Member
29th Apr 2014
7
                              Reply message RE: save as tiff or DNG?
mklass Platinum Member
29th Apr 2014
8
                                   Reply message RE: save as tiff or DNG?
Ferguson Silver Member
29th Apr 2014
9

walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Sun 06-Apr-14 02:04 AM
14684 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#1. "RE: Beginning LR Question"
In response to Reply # 0


Colorado Springs, US
          

Just select the images that you have edited and then go to Metadata in the Library module and select Update DNG Previews and Metadata. Updated previews will then be created within the DNG files themselves that you'll be able to see from Photo Mechanic. If you edited a large number of files within a folder, there's no need to worry about which ones to select - just select them all. I think it's generally easier to do this after you've completed all your edits in a session with Lightroom rather than doing it after you finish each edit.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Sun 06-Apr-14 04:03 AM
6054 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#2. "RE: Beginning LR Question"
In response to Reply # 1


Tacoma, US
          

Thanks, Rick. That did it.

I take it there is no way to make that happen automatically.

Mick
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
Online gallery: http://mickklass.gallery
My nikonians gallery

Puget Sound Chapter Coordinator
Visit Our Gallery

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Sun 06-Apr-14 12:28 PM
14684 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#3. "RE: Beginning LR Question"
In response to Reply # 2


Colorado Springs, US
          

>Thanks, Rick. That did it.
>
>I take it there is no way to make that happen automatically.
>

Not that I know of. I think the rationale was that the writing of updated previews into the dng files would be done intentionally and at some planned time rather than along the way due to the extra time it takes. It's definitely more convenient to do it during a planned break. Also, if you're just making small changes to an image (maybe a change in NR or sharpening), you might choose to completely forego writing the preview data into the dng since it won't matter much when working with PM.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
Shene Silver Member Nikonian since 30th Dec 2013Tue 29-Apr-14 10:45 AM
33 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#4. "save as tiff or DNG?"
In response to Reply # 3


US
          

I too am just starting to use Lightroom. I am trying to understand the DNG raw format usage. I do have several different programs I would like to use on my files even after importing to Lightroom. I have DxO 9 I would like to use as my initial processor to correct lens induced aberrations as well as to make some other adjustments. I do have NX2 but much prefer the DxO program. After edit in DxO 9 I can export the product image as DNG or Tiff 16 bit (or tiff 8 bit or jpg) to store and catalog in Lightroom for any future changes. From what I understand, the reversibility of changes I make on my initial NEF file will be possible within the file if converted to tiff 16 bit format and not sure about DNG format but not in Jpg. I do want to carry any DxO edits over in the file I send to Lightroom but I am not sure of the need to have the ability to "undo" those edits once transferred since I do have the room to continue to store the initial NEF files.

Is it better to use the DNG format or the Tiff format for this purpose? Which one provides more versatility for future edits in other programs? The following is just info that may answer any questions that you might need answered to understand what and why I want to use DxO with Lightroom.

I have OnOne Perfect Photo Suite 8 (which has some real nice features especially for lighting and printing resizing)as well as DxO Viewpoint and Film Pack 4 programs. All of these are available as "Edit in" options in under Photo in the Lightroom menu. I like the catalog and search feature of Lightroom but am lost with Photoshop so I have not even tried much there. (The Adobe Lightroom 5.4 and Photoshop were in a special Adobe cc deal for about $10 a month.) I do not do a lot of photo work, only hobby, and when I can get subjects like family events etc.) My printer is and Epson stylus photo 2200 which can make up to about 14x18 prints. I tend to be a program junkie and when I see a feature I like in a new program I try it and wind up buying the program. I am going to scan a lot of old slides for potential printing. I used to take slides on my Nikkormatt in the 1970's before digital since it was a lot cheaper than prints and I did a lot of photos using my extension tubes for real closeup work with my tropical fish hobby. With these guys it could take a roll or two to just get one or two decent pictures. Most of my family shots were also slides. The Epson V600 scanner does a real nice job recovering the slides too.

My camera is now a D610 replacing my D100 and I got a bunch of newer Nikon lenses for it, most of which are fully covered by DxO lens correction modules. Only my old micro Nikkor lenses as well as my D100 NEF file conversion are not covered.

I have asked about the use of the DxO program for initially doing the raw format NEF conversion with a few corrections and then transfer to Lightroom but sticking to only one program, either DxO or Lightroom was the recommendation.

Do you see any problem with using DxO for the first operation on the NEF files moved onto the hard drive from the camera memory card, then transferring (importing) the files into Lightroom for maintenance and further processing using any of the ancillary programs?

I would attach my card reader, move photos into a raw-nef folder in my pictures folder for archive. Then I would open the NEF files in DxO and export the adjusted files into Lightroom as either Tiff or DNG-(which should I use?)

I am not particularly concerned about disk space or number of files I have on disk with the ability I have now to find them with the Lightroom catalog system. I have most of my older D100 and my iPhone photos stored in "my Photo" folder sorted by event or type already. The newer ones are just my date so far.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Tue 29-Apr-14 12:53 PM
6054 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#5. "RE: save as tiff or DNG?"
In response to Reply # 4
Tue 29-Apr-14 12:53 PM by mklass

Tacoma, US
          

That sounds like an enormously complicated workflow, William. Essentailly you duplicate things by using both DxO and LR, wiht no real advantage. Both are capable of doing equavalent levels of lens correction and basic image adjustments.

First, the edits that you make in DxO will be baked into whatever file you create from there. DxO does create it own version of a sidecar file, if you elect that option, to allow some reversibility, but those edit steps are not visible to any other program, only the result.

Lightroom allows reversibility of edits as long as you edit the file in LR and it can maintain a relationship with the LR catalog. Once you "Edit in" a LR "Plug-in", you create a tif automatically and whatever you do in the Nik or onOne app gets baked in. Those changes cannot be reedited or reversed, you can only start over.

I don't think there is any real advantage to using the NEF, TIF or DNG in LR. The one advantage of the DNG is the edits are not kept in a separate sidecar file. As near as I can tell, the TIF just takes up space.

If you were to pair Photoshop with either LR or DxO, then you might get some real advantages. Using you Plug-ins in PS truly does allow for non-destructive editing. There is a cost in file size (10x the size of a NEF) but you said space is not a limiting factor.

I'd suggest using some trial version to see what works for you.

Mick
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
Online gallery: http://mickklass.gallery
My nikonians gallery

Puget Sound Chapter Coordinator
Visit Our Gallery

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Tue 29-Apr-14 01:33 PM
14684 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#6. "RE: save as tiff or DNG?"
In response to Reply # 5


Colorado Springs, US
          

It seems unnecessarily complex to me, too. Things like lens correction, perspective correction, noise reduction and sharpening all get baked into the DNG (which is a linear DNG rather than a regular DNG, meaning that it's demosaiced). You gain the advantages of a wider range of white balance correction, but if your original raw conversion in DxO was reasonably close to being right, correcting any remaining white balance setting would be easy with a TIFF, too. If you really want to use DxO with LR, I'd output TIFFs. They're more universal, and you're less likely to accidentally apply two sets of equivalent settings (this can easily happen if you ever use LR to convert raw files from that same camera).

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
Bob Chadwick Silver Member Nikonian since 12th Jan 2006Tue 29-Apr-14 02:00 PM
2049 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#7. "RE: save as tiff or DNG?"
In response to Reply # 6


Norcross, US
          

Mick,

What made you decide to convert your NEF files into DNG files?

Bob

Visit
My Nikonians Gallery
NorcrossPics.Com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
mklass Platinum Member As a semi-professional involved in all manner of photographic genres including portraiture, sports, commercial, and events coverage, Mick is always ready to help Nikonians by sharing his deep knowledge of photography and printing. Nikonian since 08th Dec 2006Tue 29-Apr-14 02:14 PM
6054 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#8. "RE: save as tiff or DNG?"
In response to Reply # 7


Tacoma, US
          

Bob,

I'm still trying to sort this out, but I thought that using the DNG would be a good option as it eliminates the sidecar file. In addition, if you are viewing the image in another program, the DNG preview can be updated to reflect the result of your edits, while the NEF will not show that.

If you are using a 100% LR centric workflow, what I do is probably not the best approach. However, I still prefer PhotoMechanc as a browser/file manager/tagger/launcher so I am not fully dependent on LR. That could change.

Mick
Web Site: http://www.mickklassphoto.com
Online gallery: http://mickklass.gallery
My nikonians gallery

Puget Sound Chapter Coordinator
Visit Our Gallery

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                
Ferguson Silver Member Nikonian since 19th Aug 2004Tue 29-Apr-14 03:12 PM
3612 posts Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share on Linkedin    Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profile
#9. "RE: save as tiff or DNG?"
In response to Reply # 8


Cape Coral, US
          


>I'm still trying to sort this out, but I thought that using
>the DNG would be a good option as it eliminates the sidecar
>file.

I often hear this, but never quite understand it. The sidecar files can (a) be turned off, (b) even if on are very tiny, and (c) Lightroom takes care of moving them around, deleting them when an image is removed, etc.

I use them; I ignore them. I can't think of the last time I ever really needed to be aware they were there.

>In addition, if you are viewing the image in another
>program, the DNG preview can be updated to reflect the result
>of your edits, while the NEF will not show that.

That's true, though I often wonder why Adobe doesn't provide the ability to do that. It's programmatically very easy.

>If you are using a 100% LR centric workflow, what I do is
>probably not the best approach. However, I still prefer
>PhotoMechanc as a browser/file manager/tagger/launcher so I am
>not fully dependent on LR. That could change.

Well, as a browser yes, and for tagging/culling prior to import yes, but once they are in lightroom and edited, you are pretty fully dependent on lightroom. Nothing else can edit that DNG with the LR edits as a starting point. At best you could extract the preview as a JPG, but it's not usable (with edits) as input to any other editor.

After import, if you tag (e.g. keyword) an image in PM, you create a conflict with the catalog you need to resolve manually.

And with DNG, if you change something (like add a keyword), the entire DNG changes. If you do incremental or versioned backups (and everyone should!) this means the whole DNG is backed up. Say I add a keyword to 1000 photos - with NEF's only the catalog (and possibly XMP's are updated), so maybe a few hundred megabytes are backed up for even a very large catalog. If I do the same with DNG's, I may be backing up 50 Gigabytes of DNG's.

I'm not knocking it if it works for you, but every time I try to find an excuse to use them, it just seems like DNG's are a solution in search of a problem.

Linwood

Comments welcomed on pictures: Http://www.captivephotons.com

  

Alert Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Forums Lobby MASTER YOUR TOOLS - Hardware & Software Digital postprocessing & workflow (Public) Adobe postprocessing software (Public) topic #14203 Previous topic | Next topic


Take the Nikonians Tour and learn more about being a Nikonian Wiki /FAQ /Help Listen to our MP3 photography radio channels Find anything on Nikon and imaging technology - fast!

Copyright © Nikonians 2000, 2014
All Rights Reserved

Nikonians®, NikoScope® and NikoniansAcademy™ are trademarks owned by Nikonians.org.
Nikon®, Nikonos® and Nikkor® are registered trademarks of Nikon Corporation.