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Subject: "DNG VS RAW" Previous topic | Next topic
mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Wed 13-Mar-13 07:12 PM
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"DNG VS RAW"


Simcoe, CA
          

I have read Scott Kelby's book re LR4. I just transferred a years worth of DNG (for which I have RAW files on another External, 2 in fact) to a new external HD and deleted them from another HD that was getting cramped. AND THEN THE UNTHINKABLE HAPPENED! That 2 week old HD crashed - --with all my DNG's that I JUST TRANSFERRED and had deleted the originals DNGs. Fortunately, I hadn't made too many LR4 adjustments to these non-critical files and had the RAW and PP'ed Jpegs backed up onto the other 2 externals I have.

So my quesion: DNG is supposed to be 20% smaller than RAW, but my files seem to be about 20% larger. It's not critical since my two external HD's are both 1TB and a third is 750MB plus my Tower HD. Why do I really need to make DNG files if I have the Raw and XMP's from my original images?? I will be the only one using the RAW files, not exporting to another's computer or anything like that. And what is a DOP file and what does it contain as compared to XMP? I know that XMP has metadata in it.

Another post I had, and maybe you were the one who answered it, saving to the original folder location from LR4, and not just keeping it in LR4, allows me to use external printers etc, but too, doesn't it allow me to have the two PP'ed backups of full size jpegs if the LR4 catalogue backups HD were to crash?

Mayber I should be making a copy of the LR4 catalogue backup files too?? Maybe too much redundancy?? I don't know. Comments please.

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
PerroneFord Silver Member
13th Mar 2013
1
Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
mjhach Silver Member
14th Mar 2013
2
Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
mjhach Silver Member
14th Mar 2013
3
     Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
PerroneFord Silver Member
15th Mar 2013
4
          Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
mjhach Silver Member
15th Mar 2013
5
Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
walkerr Administrator
15th Mar 2013
6
Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
mjhach Silver Member
15th Mar 2013
7
     Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
quenton8 Silver Member
15th Mar 2013
8
          Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
blw Moderator
16th Mar 2013
9
          Reply message RE: DNG VS RAW
mjhach Silver Member
16th Mar 2013
10

PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011Wed 13-Mar-13 09:25 PM
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#1. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 0


Tallahassee, US
          

Disclaimer: I have not read Kelby's LR4 book. I have read his LR3 book.

<deleted horror story>

>So my quesion: DNG is supposed to be 20% smaller than RAW, but
>my files seem to be about 20% larger.

It's only smaller if you are shooting uncompressed RAWs. I don't know ANYONE who does that.

>Why do I really need to make DNG files if
>I have the Raw and XMP's from my original images??

You don't.

>I will be
>the only one using the RAW files, not exporting to another's
>computer or anything like that.

DNG's likely have no value for you, and are costing you time and disk space.


>Another post I had, and maybe you were the one who answered
>it, saving to the original folder location from LR4, and not
>just keeping it in LR4, allows me to use external printers
>etc, but too, doesn't it allow me to have the two PP'ed
>backups of full size jpegs if the LR4 catalogue backups HD
>were to crash?

You lost me.

>Mayber I should be making a copy of the LR4 catalogue backup
>files too?? Maybe too much redundancy?? I don't know.
>Comments please.

I always make backups of my LR catalog. It's not that big (even with 120k images processed) and can REALLY save the day if something bad happens.

------
Webpage: http://www.ptfphoto.com

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Thu 14-Mar-13 11:17 PM
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#2. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 1


Simcoe, CA
          

Thanks so much for your response. Your answers to most of my questions confirm what I thought.

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Thu 14-Mar-13 11:20 PM
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#3. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 1


Simcoe, CA
          

As far as the 20% smaller goes, I believe the D7000 saves as lossless compressed RAW files, so I assume this is what your'e getting at. The professional bodies like D800, save files as uncompressed RAW and so one would see an effective smaller file size as DNG as oppossed to RAWs??

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PerroneFord Silver Member Nikonian since 07th Apr 2011Fri 15-Mar-13 12:02 AM
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#4. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 3


Tallahassee, US
          

I thought the D7000 had the option of uncompressed RAW, lossless compressed, and lossy compressed. I could be wrong since I haven't looked at my D7k in a long while.

The newer Pro bodies have all three options. DG will be smaller than the uncompressed. Don't think its smaller than the lossless, and it's NOT smallee than the lossy.

>As far as the 20% smaller goes, I believe the D7000 saves as
>lossless compressed RAW files, so I assume this is what your'e
>getting at. The professional bodies like D800, save files as
>uncompressed RAW and so one would see an effective smaller
>file size as DNG as oppossed to RAWs??

------
Webpage: http://www.ptfphoto.com

Visit my Nikonians gallery.

  

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Fri 15-Mar-13 12:46 AM
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#5. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 4


Simcoe, CA
          

OK. THanks.

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walkerr Administrator Awarded for his con tributed articles published at the Resources Awarded for his in-depth knowledge in multiple areas Nikonian since 05th May 2002Fri 15-Mar-13 02:43 AM
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#6. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri 15-Mar-13 02:59 AM by walkerr

Colorado Springs, US
          

>So my quesion: DNG is supposed to be 20% smaller than RAW, but
>my files seem to be about 20% larger. It's not critical
>since my two external HD's are both 1TB and a third is 750MB
>plus my Tower HD. Why do I really need to make DNG files if
>I have the Raw and XMP's from my original images?? I will be
>the only one using the RAW files, not exporting to another's
>computer or anything like that.

DNGs have a larger variety of compression and sizing options than NEFs. That includes options to reduce the linear dimensions of an image, while still retaining the typical raw editing options. That could be important to you if you're shooting a mix of subjects, Perhaps sometimes you'll want full size files and sometimes you'll want smaller files because you know you'll never print them large. A good potential example are images from a D800. You may have images from a landscape shoot that you'll want to keep at full size, but ones from an event where a 12MP camera would have been more than sufficient. The DNG format allows you to create those differing-sized raw files if you wish. Between the change in linear dimensions and the options for lossy compression, the size differences can be huge. Here's an example:

D800e compressed raw test image: 45.1MB
D800e compressed DNG image with full size preview: 44MB
D800e lossy compressed DNG resized to be like 10MP DSLR: 4.1MB

That's pretty dramatic and a nice alternative to jpegs if you need a compact size, but want to retain a raw editing capability. You can actually e-mail someone a raw file if you want, which is tough with the full-sized images. Also, because the editing and metadata parameters are embedded in the file, there's no separate sidecar file. I don't consider that a big deal normally, but it's handy when you're sending someone else a file.

In addition, because DNGs can embed previews of edited images from LR4 or ACR, if you use browsers such as Photo Mechanic you'll see thumbnails that reflect the edited versions. DNG files also let you vary the size of the embedded preview, which has an effect on file size.

DNGs also give you the option of buying a new camera and shooting raw, but using an older version of Photoshop or Lightroom. For example, you can process D800 DNG files with Photoshop CS4, rather than the CS6 required to process NEFs.

If those kinds of features are important to you, you may find DNGs attractive. If not, just use NEFs. No big deal. DNGs won't work with Nikon software apps, as well as a few other raw converters. Others, they'll work with, including the Adobe ones (obviously).

And what is a DOP file and
>what does it contain as compared to XMP? I know that XMP has
>metadata in it.
>

It's an XMP sidecar created by DxO. Just open one with a text editor, and you'll get a sense of the data contained within it (metadata, editing parameters, etc.).

>Another post I had, and maybe you were the one who answered
>it, saving to the original folder location from LR4, and not
>just keeping it in LR4, allows me to use external printers
>etc, but too, doesn't it allow me to have the two PP'ed
>backups of full size jpegs if the LR4 catalogue backups HD
>were to crash?
>

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're asking on that one.

>Mayber I should be making a copy of the LR4 catalogue backup
>files too?? Maybe too much redundancy?? I don't know.
>Comments please.

Yes, just like you should be backing up the majority of what's on your computer and certainly image files. You don't necessarily need to keep a large number of back-ups, though.

Rick Walker

My photos:
GeoVista Photography

  

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Fri 15-Mar-13 12:00 PM
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#7. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 6


Simcoe, CA
          

Hmmmm. I'm having an Aha moment. Never connected that DOP was a DxO sidecar file. Thanks for the revelation on this point and the exquisitely detailed explanation of the use of DNG vs Raw. I guess since I don't run into what you were explaining, not having an FX system, I'll just stick to RAW and XMP/DOP files saving, with backups, OF COURSE.

Mike

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quenton8 Silver Member Awarded for bringing his experience to the Nikonians community helping members with printing and the use of post-processing software from the perspective of an IT professional. Nikonian since 11th Apr 2010Fri 15-Mar-13 09:19 PM
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#8. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 7


Toronto, CA
          

Personally, I am keeping my files in NEF, with DNG down the road if I find a need (NEF not supported by adobe for example, or a number of 3rd party tools that work on DNG's but not NEF's).

I don't write XMP side-car files, but I do backup my catalog every day and copy those backups to my 2nd and 3rd USB drives which I used for backups (as well as to my 4th USB drive which gets stashed at my office for offsite).

Of course my images are also backed up that way too.

So I can always recover my editing changes as they are in the catalog (which has lots of backups going back a few months) -- and if I ever find the need I can do a bulk convert to DNG, or just convert a few to DNG -- I just don't see the need at this point.

My personal opinion!

----
Dennis Smith.

  

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blw Moderator Awarded for his high level of expertise in various areas Nikonian since 18th Jun 2004Sat 16-Mar-13 01:08 PM
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#9. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 8


Richmond, US
          

I do write .xmp sidecars - in addition to backing up all of them, the .NEFs and the catalog frequently, to both other disks and other systems. The sidecar files don't consume any interesting amount of space, so why not? It's an additional insurance policy if anything goes badly wrong.

_____
Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian and Team Member

My gallery is online. Comments and critique welcomed any time!

  

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mjhach Silver Member Nikonian since 17th Dec 2010Sat 16-Mar-13 11:30 PM
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#10. "RE: DNG VS RAW"
In response to Reply # 8


Simcoe, CA
          

My workflow now is copy Card through LR4 to 2 hard drives. THen DxO picks up the NEF's from one of the hard drives and process/auto lens corrections etc. THen saved 100% JPEGS to my two drives holding my JPEG directory. Then exported from DxO to LR4 for more mods/Nik software and printing/burning and and then maybe saved back as 100% JPEGS to original files or just kept in LR catalogue, backed up twice. I don't seem to lose too much image quality from the 16.1 MP that the D7000 produces. Oh, monthly I make a set of DVD's for Jpegs files and RAW files as my third backup with a contact sheet print of my images to enable visulization. I used to do this before I got into LR, only working with PSE, but like all seasoned pros, I'm finding LR is GREAT, except for some quirks that Nikoninas has been invaluable in helping me resolve/understand.

Thanks for your valued input.

So you just use thumb drives for you backups. Why don't you use External harddrives?

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